sci.electronics.repair - 13 new messages in 8 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair?hl=en

sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sometimes, a sledge - hammer is the right tool ... :-)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/2bc7695b4fb03244?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 8:41 pm
From: stratus46@yahoo.com

On Oct 20, 6:05 pm, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Well, figuratively speaking, anyway !
>
> Today, a Carlsbro mixer desk landed on my bench. At power up, a few leds
> flickered and flashed pathetically, before it settling with a couple of the
> output bar leds alight. Other than this, it did not a lot. Oddly, at the
> bottom of the two bar columns, are two more leds marked "DC" and "+15" and
> "-15". The "+15" was alight, but not the "-15".
>
> The power supply is a separate linear unit, screwed to the bottom of the
> desk, and connected to the main board by a ribbon cable. I was able to
> measure +15v and +5v at this connector, but no -15v, which seemed to go
> along with with what the diagnostic leds on the front panel were saying.
> However, with the power supply unplugged, -15v returned, at which point, my
> heart sank. You could measure a virtual dead short to ground on the -15v pin
> at the board end.
>
> It's a single board, so the next 20 minutes were spent removing knobs,
> screws and jack nuts to get the board out. It was double sided with
> thousands of tiny vias, and a mixture of surface mount and through hole
> technology, including many through hole SIL opamps. Shorts like this are
> very difficult to track down. It could be any decoupling capacitor anywhere
> on the board, or any IC. I tried all the usual stuff like using a low ohms
> meter to see if I could get close to the location, but the results were
> inconclusive. Nothing was running hot, as the linear regulator was in full
> overload foldback, so not supplying enough current into the short.
>
> So I decided it was make or break time, and got out my sledge - hammer in
> the form of a bench power supply. I disconnected the unit's own power
> supply, and set my bench one to -12v and a current limit of 1 amp, hooked it
> to the shorted rail, and settled back to wait for the smoke. There wasn't
> any, so I went round with a MK 1 finger to see if I could find a hot IC. I
> finally burnt my finger on a little surface mount 4880. Quicker than you
> could say "soldering iron" I had it whipped off the board. Then I burnt my
> finger again on the spot where it had been ... :-(
>
> It finally turned out to be a tiny gnat's-cock sized surface mount cap right
> next to the IC, that was short circuit. It was pumping so much heat into the
> board, that it was hotting up the IC as well. In the absence of a schematic,
> I'm guessing that it's just an 0.1uF ceramic decoupler. That's what it looks
> like anyway, so that's what it's got in it now as a replacement. In view of
> the relatively small value of this mixer, I think that the sledge - hammer
> 'tune for maximum smoke' approach was about the only one that was
> commercially viable, and in this case, it worked out nicely. Now all I need
> is a few more faults like that. Don't know about anyone else, but I have
> found the last three weeks to be the worst I have ever suffered in 20 years
> of working for myself, both in terms of quantity, and quality of work. I
> think we still have a very long way to go in recovering from the recent
> recession. Anyone care to comment on how you're finding it on the
> westpondian side ? Jeff, Mark , Meat ?
>
> Arfa

If the power is distributed with actual planes in the PCB it would be
difficult to do it any other way. If power is distributed in a 'tree'
you could have restricted the current to get a few hundred mV into the
board and then look for the Voltage differentials with a meter. OR if
its a 'tree', you can start measuring the ohms at each capacitor. With
my trusty old Fluke 8060 I correctly identified which hole was shorted
to the ground plane of a new PCB. The 2 holes were separated by 0.1
inch ( 2.54 mm. I know YOU know) connected with a 0.01 inch trace on 1
oz copper. Good meters are essential.

G²

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 11:05 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Thu, 21 Oct 2010 02:05:18 +0100, "Arfa Daily"
<arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:

>It finally turned out to be a tiny gnat's-cock sized surface mount cap right
>next to the IC, that was short circuit. It was pumping so much heat into the
>board, that it was hotting up the IC as well.

If it was belching that much heat, you could have seen some of it with
a digital camera that's sensitive to infrared. Granted, the typical
camera is only sensitive to near IR, and not the far IR that's need
for thermal viewing. Lacking a suitable camera, I've used a gun style
IR thermometer, with a paper tube over the lens to limit the exposure.
It takes a while to scan the board, but it works. I also have several
sheets of liquid crystals, that clearly show hot spots if I can get
them close to the board.
<http://www.edmundoptics.com/onlinecatalog/displayproduct.cfm?productid=1642>

>Don't know about anyone else, but I have
>found the last three weeks to be the worst I have ever suffered in 20 years
>of working for myself, both in terms of quantity, and quality of work. I
>think we still have a very long way to go in recovering from the recent
>recession. Anyone care to comment on how you're finding it on the
>westpondian side? Jeff, Mark , Meat ?

That's the left coast please.

What I'm seeing is really marginal design. That's the real benefit of
computers in electronic equipment design. With modeling and
simulation, it's possible to select components that are ever closer to
the bitter edge of self destruction. The days of safety factors and
over current/voltage/power/whatever overhead are long gone. Everything
is designed to blow up should any parameter be exceeded. If the
transistor goes into thermal runaway at 100C case temp, then the heat
sink will be minimally sized to run it at 99C. It's enough to make me
cry, but there's no way to stop the trend.

As for the recession, it's still happening. Home mortgage rates are
about 3.75% which is as low as it's ever been and only half a point
above the official 3.25% prime rate. My office complex has 3
vacancies out of 6 offices. I'm having to negotiate payment plans
with customers. I'm also loaning money to friends, which is really a
bad idea. I'm bidding on design contracts against engineers who are
willing to work almost for free. My profits are basically supporting
my office expenses and taxes. Not good, and no improvements in sight.
Doom and gloom.

On the other foot, I'm finding more time to tinker, play, and loaf,
which was not the case when I was busy. I'm even getting some
exercise and bike rides during working hours. Maybe recessions aren't
so bad after all.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 21 2010 12:51 am
From: "N_Cook"

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:jlMvo.56612$iY6.6495@newsfe12.ams2...
> Well, figuratively speaking, anyway !
>
> Today, a Carlsbro mixer desk landed on my bench. At power up, a few leds
> flickered and flashed pathetically, before it settling with a couple of
the
> output bar leds alight. Other than this, it did not a lot. Oddly, at the
> bottom of the two bar columns, are two more leds marked "DC" and "+15" and
> "-15". The "+15" was alight, but not the "-15".
>
> The power supply is a separate linear unit, screwed to the bottom of the
> desk, and connected to the main board by a ribbon cable. I was able to
> measure +15v and +5v at this connector, but no -15v, which seemed to go
> along with with what the diagnostic leds on the front panel were saying.
> However, with the power supply unplugged, -15v returned, at which point,
my
> heart sank. You could measure a virtual dead short to ground on the -15v
pin
> at the board end.
>
> It's a single board, so the next 20 minutes were spent removing knobs,
> screws and jack nuts to get the board out. It was double sided with
> thousands of tiny vias, and a mixture of surface mount and through hole
> technology, including many through hole SIL opamps. Shorts like this are
> very difficult to track down. It could be any decoupling capacitor
anywhere
> on the board, or any IC. I tried all the usual stuff like using a low ohms
> meter to see if I could get close to the location, but the results were
> inconclusive. Nothing was running hot, as the linear regulator was in
full
> overload foldback, so not supplying enough current into the short.
>
> So I decided it was make or break time, and got out my sledge - hammer in
> the form of a bench power supply. I disconnected the unit's own power
> supply, and set my bench one to -12v and a current limit of 1 amp, hooked
it
> to the shorted rail, and settled back to wait for the smoke. There wasn't
> any, so I went round with a MK 1 finger to see if I could find a hot IC. I
> finally burnt my finger on a little surface mount 4880. Quicker than you
> could say "soldering iron" I had it whipped off the board. Then I burnt my
> finger again on the spot where it had been ... :-(
>
> It finally turned out to be a tiny gnat's-cock sized surface mount cap
right
> next to the IC, that was short circuit. It was pumping so much heat into
the
> board, that it was hotting up the IC as well. In the absence of a
schematic,
> I'm guessing that it's just an 0.1uF ceramic decoupler. That's what it
looks
> like anyway, so that's what it's got in it now as a replacement. In view
of
> the relatively small value of this mixer, I think that the sledge - hammer
> 'tune for maximum smoke' approach was about the only one that was
> commercially viable, and in this case, it worked out nicely. Now all I
need
> is a few more faults like that. Don't know about anyone else, but I have
> found the last three weeks to be the worst I have ever suffered in 20
years
> of working for myself, both in terms of quantity, and quality of work. I
> think we still have a very long way to go in recovering from the recent
> recession. Anyone care to comment on how you're finding it on the
> westpondian side ? Jeff, Mark , Meat ?
>
> Arfa
>

The likely MLCC and SM failure mechanism
http://www.era.co.uk/news/rfa_feature_07b.asp
even more likely with the extra 30 deg C or more of PbF soldering

memo to myself, must get one of those IR and sighting laser-spot thermometer
guns

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Good LED TV repair men in San Diego County area?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/4ed1121fdbf133bb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 8:43 pm
From: "hrhofmann@att.net"

On Oct 20, 5:12 pm, Keith <keithdlee2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> All:
> Does anyone know of a safe, reliable, and honest LED TV repairman in the San Diego County area? If so,
> please email or post me here.
>
> Keith

more details, make and model of the tv, etc

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 11:14 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 22:12:01 +0000 (UTC), Keith
<keithdlee2000@gmail.com> wrote:

>All:
> Does anyone know of a safe, reliable, and honest LED TV repairman in the San Diego County area? If so,
>please email or post me here.
>
>Keith

Ummm.... if it's an LED TV (presumably LED back or side lighting),
then it's probably no more than about 10 months old. Didn't you get a
warranty?

Also, all TV repairmen lie. For example, the line "that's a great TV
you have there and well worth fixing" is usually intended to reassure
the customer that they didn't buy a total piece of junk that's
probably going to fail sporadically for its entire useful life. Forget
about honest. I'm not sure what you mean by "safe" but I haven't
heard of any TV electrocutions for a few years. Reliable is also
questionable as nobody shows up or delivers on time any more. I don't
know any repairman that qualifies, including myself. Sorry.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 21 2010 12:31 am
From: "The dog from that film you saw"

"Keith" <keithdlee2000@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:i9npfh$hqe$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> All:
> Does anyone know of a safe, reliable, and honest LED TV repairman in the
> San Diego County area? If so,
> please email or post me here.
>
> Keith

you don't have an LED tv to repair.
you've fallen for marketing.

--
Gareth.

that fly...... is your magic wand....
http://dsbdsb.mybrute.com
you fight better when you have a bear!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Whirlpool electric stove, model RF0100, trips the breaker.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/2d6ac70cbeb19c93?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 8:42 pm
From: "David Farber"

Please disregard this post and reply to the newer post labeled, "Whirlpool
RF0100 electric stove trips breaker." My news server was down and I have
since slightly revised my original message.

Thanks.

--
David Farber
Los Osos, CA

David Farber wrote:
> This Whirlpool electric stove, model number RF0100, appears to be an
> older model. If you're wondering what blasted the ground lead of my
> Kill-A-Watt meter which I posted about a two days ago in the thread
> about the Phillips security screw, this is the culprit. The schematic
> is here:
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/farberbear/Repair/Electric-stove.jpg
> as I photographed it from the back of the stove.
>
>
> I used to have it hooked up to a 240 volt circuit as indicated in the
> schematic and it worked ok. But, now I don't have a 240V line. Or at
> least not yet. I was trying to at least get it to work on 120V
> because only the oven will be used and at very low heat, probably
> around 200 degrees to cook some ceramics. The stovetop and broiler
> wires have been disconnected because they are not needed. This
> particular model does not have a light or a clock as shown in the
> schematic. I wired it so that L1 went to hot (black), L2 went to N
> (white), and N to ground (green). The load across the electric plug,
> hot to neutral, with the oven switch on is 17 ohms. That makes sense
> to me. However the impedance reading from neutral to ground makes no
> sense to me. I've tried two different dvm's and they both give
> bizarre results. When starting at the 2M ohm range, the meter starts
> at about 700k and counts down to about 300k and holds there. When I
> move the switch over to the 20M ohm range, the meter starts at about
> 2.3M ohm and counts up. The other meter which is a portable meter
> counts backward too and then the minus sign appears on the meter as
> if current is coming into the meter. From what I can see, there
> aren't any capacitors or semiconductors interfering. The oven
> thermostat has a thermocouple wired to it which for some reason is
> not shown in the schematic. I opened the thermostat and found an
> interesting mechanical coupling that moves a slider bar that
> depresses either the oven element switch, the broil element switch,
> or both. Then there is the thermocouple wire which is wrapped(?)
> internally around the rotating control that selects the oven
> temperature. I don't usually open oven thermostats so I'm not sure
> what exactly is going on inside. Once you open the thermostat, there
> is a spring inside the device which displaces everything outside the
> container. In any case, at room temperature, there is a connection
> from L1 to the bake and broil terminals so I know it's sending power
> through to those elements.
>
>
> Not trusting anything about these electrical readings, I first
> plugged the oven into my Sencore PR57 isolation transformer. The
> transformer can only supply about 300 watts but I was more interested
> in measuring leakage current. No surprise when the low side leakage
> to the metal frame measured full deflection even with the power off
> to the oven. Not exactly the best situation. The high side leakage
> was zero. I turned up the voltage slowly and the current seemed to
> rise proportionately to the 17 ohm load until I stopped at about 300
> watts. I should mention that the heating element did not seem to get
> warm. Also, the heating element impedance matched the load across the
> power plug so that seemed like a good sign.
>
>
> Then I plugged it directly into the wall outlet via the Kill-A-Watt
> meter. I turned on the oven switch and an instant trip of the circuit
> breaker at the sub panel occurred. So where is all this extra current
> coming from to cook the ground plug on my Kill-A-Watt and trip the
> breaker? I must be missing something very obvious.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your reply.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: laptop sound card
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3fb15a5d0cf15755?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 8:55 pm
From: stratus46@yahoo.com

On Oct 20, 2:14 pm, phaedrus <orion.osi...@virgin.net> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I blew my laptop sound card somehow. Not sure why it blew, but it was
> working fine until I plugged a mic pre-amp into its mic socket to
> record some voice. Strange thing is, I have done this before many many
> times with the same settings, input mic, voltage supply, and its never
> complained before. This time however, it's blown it, it seems. And
> it's not a separate board, but built into the motherboard.
>
> Obviously a re-boot hasn't solved the problem. Neither did trying to
> play audio via Linux instead of Windows. So it has to be a hardware
> failure. But the symptoms are not normal. If it had been a case that I
> had whacked too much power into the input, I would expect the initial
> amplifier stage to fail resulting in mostly just very low output audio
> levels. But what I get is more like I blew the speakers on a home
> stereo by turning up the volume far too loud. It sounds really raspy
> like the speaker coils have partly decatched from their cones! Tried
> using known-good earphones from the earphone socket, but the result is
> the same.
>
> I am gonna have to trash this lappie if someone here can't think of
> something I might have overlooked. Any suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> VLC.

I did something similar with the on-board sound of a desktop a couple
of years back. For that we used a separate sound card as repairing the
mother board isn't practical. Gerard's suggestion is your best bet.
When connecting external items to a PC (or laptop) it's a real good
idea to connect the audio BEFORE connecting the power cord.

Your PC is likely grounded via the 3rd pin on the plug but many audio
items use a simple 2 wire plug and sometimes 'loosely' couple the
signal ground to the power source which can potentially put over 100
volts between 'grounds'. If that connects to an audio (or video) pin
_before_ the ground connects it WILL fail.

G²

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Whirlpool RF0100 electric stove trips breaker.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/88c59b94b9023959?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 8:56 pm
From: David Sanders

On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 20:37:21 -0700, David Farber wrote:

> I used to have the stove hooked up to a 240 volt circuit as indicated in the
> schematic and it worked ok. But, now I don't have a 240V line.

Since you have admitted to dedicating that line to your marijuana
plant grow, why not STFU about it?
--
Shit! I thought no one knew, goddammit!
http://preview.tinyurl.com/29p4ody
Me, jacking off! http://preview.tinyurl.com/3xpntge Available For
Lessons!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: varicap diode testing?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/91a7f7edae59afb9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 9:12 pm
From: stratus46@yahoo.com

On Oct 20, 7:18 pm, mynick <anglom...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 18, 9:37 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:41:25 -0700 (PDT), mynick <anglom...@yahoo.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >if you test an OK varicapdiode with analog reistance meter what are
> > >you supposed to get?
>
> > Avaricapis just an ordinary diode. When reverse biased, it acts as
> > a capacitor which varies with the applied reverse bias. It never
> > conducts current in the forward direction. Never... Ever...
>
> > >Does it get hot/warm in battery powered
> > >transmitter
>
> > No.
>
> > >(if not than the element suspected to be a varactor and
> > >mounted to stick a little bit out of the transmitter box, could be
> > >an ic diode although it could not transmit trough walls, could it?)
>
> > I have no idea. Perhaps it would be helpful if you would disclose:
> > 1. What are you trying to accomplish?
> > 2. What are you working on? (Make and model)?
> > 3. What have you done so far and what happen?
>
> > --
> > Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> > Santa Cruz CA 95060http://802.11junk.com
> > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
> Thanks for reply
> this is a photo of the outdoor part of the wireless thermometer that
> stopped workinghttp://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7053/img00331n.jpg
> checked discrete elements ok but no bias voltage at (varicap?)diode-
> that, kind of
> a transparent element, seen up front close to battery contacts having
> resistance in both directions od 6Kohms,
> any ideas?

You expect anybody to get even the faintest idea of what that
'picture' is? You DID replace the batteries on both the transmitter
and receiver, right?

G²

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 10:32 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 19:18:25 -0700 (PDT), mynick <anglomont@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Oct 18, 9:37 am, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 06:41:25 -0700 (PDT), mynick <anglom...@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >if you test an OK varicapdiode with analog reistance meter what are
>> >you supposed to get?
>>
>> Avaricapis just an ordinary diode. When reverse biased, it acts as
>> a capacitor which varies with the applied reverse bias. It never
>> conducts current in the forward direction. Never... Ever...
>>
>> >Does it get hot/warm in battery powered
>> >transmitter
>>
>> No.
>>
>> >(if not than the element suspected to be a varactor and
>> >mounted to stick a little bit out of the transmitter box, could be
>> >an ic diode although it could not transmit trough walls, could it?)
>>
>> I have no idea. Perhaps it would be helpful if you would disclose:
>> 1. What are you trying to accomplish?
>> 2. What are you working on? (Make and model)?
>> 3. What have you done so far and what happen?

>this is a photo of the outdoor part of the wireless thermometer that
>stopped working
>http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/7053/img00331n.jpg

Blurrrrrrry useless photo. Try again, this time with the camera set
to macro, and without the drastic tilt angle, which requires too much
depth of field.

>checked discrete elements ok but no bias voltage at (varicap?)diode-
>that, kind of
>a transparent element, seen up front close to battery contacts having
>resistance in both directions od 6Kohms,
>any ideas?

Nope. See my 3 questions.

I've had far too much entertainment with wireless weather stations.
They don't seem to fail, but they do drift off frequency, or lose
power output due to moisture absorption in the PCB. I cheat and use a
spectrum analyzer to look at what it's sending. To the best of my
knowledge, most such remote thermometers do not use a varicap.
However, the humidity sensor is a polyimide or polystyrene capacitor,
with no case. The capacitor changes value as the dielectric absorbs
moisture and swells.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT electronic / electrical translator book
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e627794deb65d2e8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Oct 20 2010 10:40 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Wed, 20 Oct 2010 12:56:55 -0700, "Harrison Lighting and Neon"
<SOMEONE@SOMEWHERE.COM> wrote:

>I am trying to locate (the name of) a spanish to english translation book of
>terms and part names for electrical (commercial wiring etc) and electronic
>( tv, dvr, computer)
>this is for a friend of mine who was educated in Mexico and is takeing
>college courses here.
>Can anyone reccomend such a book?

I can't recommend anything specific as I don't speak Spanish. However,
if you Google for "Spanish English Technical Dictionary" you're find a
fair number of likely prospects. For example:
<http://www.amazon.com/Diccionario-tecnico-Espanol-Technical-Dictionary/dp/842830923X>
$15 used.

This might also be useful:
<http://www.electropedia.org/iev/iev.nsf/Welcome?OpenForm>
for looking up specific terms.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HAIRY LADY
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/01a3d851242323d8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Oct 21 2010 1:03 am
From: Ignacio Roman

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