oldschool@tubes.com: Jan 29 02:32PM -0600
I want to re-cap an old tube type shortwave radio. I dont mind using
plastic coated caps to replace the old paper-wax ones in the circuit.
(Meaning the smallish ones, such as .05 .02 .001, etc.)
However, it seems that no one sells the multi-part electrolytic
capacitors anymore. Particularly the ones on aluminum containers that
were mounted on the chassis. Those used to be very common on all old
TVs, radios, and other stuff. Normally, they came with 2, 3, or 4, caps
inside one container. (I never saw more than 4). Something like 50mf
450v 30mf 300v 10mf 150v was common. And not only the aluminum chassis
mounted ones, but many of the old (American Five) sets (5 tubes) had a
wax coated multi-part electrolytic capacitor, which went below the
chassis and was mounted by a strap around the cap body, and had a black
wire (GND), and a different color wire for each internal cap.
I like to restore this stuff to look original, as well as having to
consider that some of these devices dont have much spare space under the
chassis, to add individual caps.
I have checked both real stores and online vendors and no one seems to
sell these multi-part electrolytic capacitors anymore. Yes, I did run
across a few "OLD STOCK" caps, but I would assume that they deteriorate
almost as much as those inside a circuit, from aging. So, I'll avoid
them.
Does anyone know of any source for the multi-part electrolytic
capacitors which are still made to fit these vintage tube devices?
One other thing. I am not finding any 50-50 or 60-40 lead tin rosin core
solder anymore. At least not in the stores. I do not plan to serve
anyone dinner on the underside of a chassis, so I'm not worried about
getting lead poisoning. But apparently the government must think we eat
off of our electronics and have banned the old lead based solder.
Since I will be removing old caps, soldered with lead-tin solder,
shouldn't I be using lead-tin solder to replace the parts? Or will the
new solder (whatever it's made of), mix properly with the old lead based
stuff? (I dont want to create some sort of dialectric corrosion issues).
[Even with a desoldering bulb and wicking, not 100% of the lead is ever
removed]. Not to mention that I have heard that some (or all) of these
new solders require a lot more heat, which can damage the components
while soldering.
I have not worked on tube equipment in years, and I am looking forward
to this project. But things sure have changed since the time I played
around with these radios years ago (1960s - 70s). I gave up my
electronics hobby when semiconductors took over, because they are just
not as much fun to work on and too difficult to repair. Maybe working on
some tube equipment will make me feel young again. :)
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dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt): Jan 29 02:03PM -0800
In article <02is8c9u88l40h63st3fhjbc8h4172jisc@4ax.com>,
>I like to restore this stuff to look original, as well as having to
>consider that some of these devices dont have much spare space under the
>chassis, to add individual caps.
What a lot of people in your situation do, these days, is temporarily
remove the old cap-can, carefully gut it, and install several smaller
modern capacitors inside the shell, connecting them to the appropriate
lugs on the bottom terminal disc. Using modern caps, and a bit of
sleeving on the leads, it's usually possible to fit the necessary
individual parts into the shell.
You can then reinstall the Wolves In Cheap Clothing capacitor-set
in its original location. Cosmetically it will look just like the
original; electrically it will probably be quite a bit superior to
the original.
You might be able to do the same thing with the wax-coated
multicap... or, if its case is already "gone bad" you can probably
make a reasonable look-alike using a cardboard sleeve over a set of
modern caps, and (if you insist on original appearance) dip it in wax
or varnish.
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Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jan 29 06:41PM -0800
> were mounted on the chassis. Those used to be very common on all old
> TVs, radios, and other stuff. Normally, they came with 2, 3, or 4, caps
> inside one container. (I never saw more than 4).
** Not made anymore by anyone.
EXCEPT for some double types with brands like F&T, ARS and K&D.
LCR used to make them too but when out of business about 10 years ago.
You will see them all on eBay.
FYI
I have come across new looking triple types that were sold for use in old Fender amps:
https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/cap_can-jpg.985203/
Don't buy them, they are 50+ year old caps that are all faulty.
.... Phil
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Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Jan 29 11:17PM -0500
In article <02is8c9u88l40h63st3fhjbc8h4172jisc@4ax.com>,
oldschool@tubes.com says...
> electronics hobby when semiconductors took over, because they are just
> not as much fun to work on and too difficult to repair. Maybe working on
> some tube equipment will make me feel young again. :)
Look here for the capacitors you want.
https://hayseedhamfest.com/
YOu should be able to find the 60/40 solder from places in the US.If in
anoter country, I don't know.
Ebay is full of the 60/40 and 63/37 solder.
Mouser.com has some at about $45 per pound spool
The newer stuff will mix ok with the old for the tube size equipment.
Just takes more heat to melt the newer stuff. I don't use the lead free
on anything. No work for pay,as I am just doing electronic work for
myself.
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"Dave M" <dgminala@mediacombb.net>: Jan 29 10:39PM -0600
Those multi-section capacitors are quickly becoming extinct. There are a
few vendors that still cater to those who resotore antique electronics.
Here are a few that I have used in the past.
https://hayseedhamfest.com/
http://www.justradios.com/
https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/capacitors
https://vacuumtubesinc.com/
http://store.triodestore.com/
http://www.oldradioparts.com/
http://www.grillecloth.com/other/parts.php
There are probably more that I haven't seen or heard of. There have been
several sites that have shut down, likely because of the owners' health or
lack of buisiness. There used to be a guy online who actually rebuilt the
old multi-section capacitors. He opened the aluminum case, removed the old
capacitor guts and replaced the sections with new, individual capacitors and
resealed the case. He did a pretty good job; I used his service a couple
of times, but his health caused him to close the business.
you're correct about the "old stock" parts. the electrolytics will have to
be reformed before putting them to work in a real circuit. If they're not
too far gone, reforming will get a lot of life out of them. If you have no
other choice, you have a good chance of bringing them back to life.
I use the old 63/37 tin/lead solder. Not cheap any more, but still
available. No reason to go lead-free in the old equipment.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/browse/Lead-Alloy/0000001207
http://www.allelectronics.com/category/570/solder-accessories/1.html
http://www.skycraftsurplus.com/search.aspx?find=solder
http://www.mpja.com/Solder-Accessories/products/348/
Good luck in your hobby. Not many of us old tube guys around any more.
Cheers,
Dave M
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Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com>: Jan 30 05:27PM +1100
> removed]. Not to mention that I have heard that some (or all) of these
> new solders require a lot more heat, which can damage the components
> while soldering.
You can still buy leaded solder, even in Europe where it is not allowed
in new electronics that is sold, but can still legally be used to repair
things that were built before 2006. You can also use it to make new
things in Europe if you do not "place them on the market".
The solder with 60% lead is not even very nice to use, because it spends
a lot of time in a "mushy" state as it is cooling. I think they only
used 60% lead in old appliances because lead is cheaper than tin. The
eutectic alloy with 37% lead is much better because it goes from fully
liquid to being fully solid over a small range of temperature, but is
slightly more expensive due to the higher price of tin.
Some of the lead-free solders are actually not bad to use, for example
96SC alloy from Multicore. The melting point is a bit higher than
tin-lead eutectic but probably not much different from the 60% lead
alloy that you wanted. The high melting point would only really be a
problem if you are desoldering components from plated-through holes in a
multilayer board with several ground planes buried within it, and that
sounds unlikely for your vintage electronics. The only problem that I
have with the 96SC alloy is that it is expensive, perhaps partly due to
the 3.8% silver content.
The area around the wet sponge used for cleaning the soldering iron
usually gets covered in tiny solder particles and dust, that get on the
carpet etc. When soldering at home the main risk is probably if you have
a young child in your family of the age where they crawl on the floor
eating dirt, and they eat some lead dust. A blood concentration of lead
that is increased by 50 parts per billion is correlated with an IQ that
is 10 to 20 points lower. If you do the calculations, 50 parts per
billion is not much.
http://oehha.ca.gov/media/goodmangilmanlead.pdf
If you are working on old equipment then regardless of whether you use
leaded solder wire or not, the solder droplets that end up on your
sponge and on the bench around it will contain lead, so it is best to
wipe it up carefully and keep it out of living areas of your house.
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N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk>: Jan 30 12:12PM
> electronics hobby when semiconductors took over, because they are just
> not as much fun to work on and too difficult to repair. Maybe working on
> some tube equipment will make me feel young again. :)
Research the term "restuffing", I've done it a few times.
Modern caps tend to be smaller volume and if you can find the right
aspect ratio, can get 2 or 3 in a recycled can. Add insulation between
the caps, removing the original contents can be messy and you might have
to go for axial type caps and somtimes the new contents might protrude
under the can
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"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 30 04:39AM -0800
On Sunday, January 29, 2017 at 9:41:59 PM UTC-5, Phil Allison wrote:
> olds...@tubes.com wrote:
> ** Not made anymore by anyone.
Most of the "popular" types of multi-section caps are still made for specific purposes.
http://www.tubes4hifi.com/ST70.htm about halfway down the page.
This is only one (1) example of such sources. There are a great many similar sources. I have seen such dedicated to brands like Zenith and Hallicrafters in the radio end of the hobby - and many more dedicated to the likes of McIntosh, Dynaco, Eico, Marantz and others. The downside is that they are NOT cheap, typically tens of multiples of the cost of individual caps.
That being written, NOS caps are as suspect as the one in your radio. Restuffing works nicely, is inexpensive and as you become more skilled at it, will be invisible as well as far less costly.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jan 30 06:10AM -0800
> > ** Not made anymore by anyone.
> Most of the "popular" types of multi-section caps are still made for specific purposes.
> http://www.tubes4hifi.com/ST70.htm about halfway down the page.
** The rest of my post you fucking SNIPPED details exactly that brand of electro cap - complete with a very clear pic.
And it points out the suppliers are *criminal fraudsters*.
FFS, you retarded fucking asshole - READ what is fucking posted ~!!~!!
> Peter Wieck
> Melrose Park, PA
** Must be right next fucking La La Land.
Piss the fuck off you senile, useless fucking retard.
And I mean that most sincere.
.... Phil
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"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 30 06:19AM -0800
You need to take a Chill Pill.
VTA & Bob Latino have been around for many years, stand behind their products and sell good stuff. The other dedicated suppliers are also of long and good standing including a few that I have meet personally and actually observed and tested their products.
Point being that multi-section caps are still in production, albeit limited to mostly the highest-volume values and types, or for the most expensive (and popular) equipment. But, for all that, still in production.
It must be very easy from a cave in Australia to spit out invective supported by anecdotes of doubtful veracity - if even that much. Were you more available, I am fairly sure that some of your fans would have at the very least adjusted your attitude, if not cleaned your proverbial clock for you. I guess you are that 3-year old - if she can't see it, it does not exist.
https://www.die-wuestens.de/dindex.htm?/k8.htm
Another one.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jan 30 06:41AM -0800
> You need to take a Chill Pill.
** You nee a fucking bullet in the head.
> VTA & Bob Latino have been around for many years,
* So fucking, stinking what ???
The "CE Manufacturing" brand electros on that page are a criminal FRAUD.
Bob Latino is profiting from the SCAM, so is just as bad as them.
I have seen them personal,y so I fucking know.
YOU FUCKING HAVE NOT !!!!
> Point being that multi-section caps are still in production,
** And I clearly pointed out the very few, dual ones that *really were*.
But you snipped them out of sight too, you stupid, fucking senile ASSHOLE.
> It must be very easy from a cave in Australia ...
** What shit hole do you live in fucked, a septic tank ?
FYI to all:
The Peter Wieck troll is one of the worst, lying nut cases seen on usenet over the last 15 to 20 years - probably longer.
The retard has no ide how retarded he is so it might seem cruel to abuse him, I know.
But how the hell else do you shut dangerous FUCKING IDIOTS like him up ???
.... Phil
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"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jan 30 06:48AM -0800
Coming from you, this makes me quietly proud! Yet, as it happens, I do feel sorry for you as, clearly, your meds are failing again.
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
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oldschool@tubes.com: Jan 29 03:01PM -0600
On Thu, 05 Jan 2017 10:04:58 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
>transistor will dissipate considerable heat at high loads.
>Sounds like too much work. I'll see if can find one in my junk pile.
>I've been hoarding germanium devices for years for use in repairs.
I have not heard about germanium in years. When I played around with old
tube stuff in the 60s - 70s, I remember germanium diodes were fairly
common. I never ran across a germanium transistor.
Reading this thread made me question what germanium really is, and I
read the following article (good article). I know it was used to make
the FIRST semiconductors, I never knew much more about it.
It appears it's a costly elemental material.
Here are a few clips from that article.
[Quote]
From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanium
Germanium "metal" (isolated germanium) is used as a semiconductor in
transistors and various other electronic devices. Historically, the
first decade of semiconductor electronics was based entirely on
germanium. Today, the amount of germanium produced for semiconductor
electronics is one fiftieth the amount of ultra-high purity silicon
produced for the same. Presently, the major end uses are fibre-optic
systems, infrared optics, solar cell applications, and light-emitting
diodes (LEDs). Germanium compounds are also used for polymerization
catalysts and have most recently found use in the production of
nanowires. This element forms a large number of organometallic
compounds, such as tetraethylgermane, useful in organometallic
chemistry.
-
Germanium differs from silicon in that the supply is limited by the
availability of exploitable sources, while the supply of silicon is
limited only by production capacity since silicon comes from ordinary
sand and quartz. While silicon could be bought in 1998 for less than $10
per kg, the price of germanium was almost $800 per kg.
[End Quote]
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"Benderthe.evilrobot" <Benderthe.evilrobot@virginmedia.com>: Jan 29 09:32PM
<oldschool@tubes.com> wrote in message
news:2gls8c9v6rniulp4et8n6ecvu5stq491ri@4ax.com...
> read the following article (good article). I know it was used to make
> the FIRST semiconductors, I never knew much more about it.
> It appears it's a costly elemental material.
Apparently it was refined from flue dust where a specific type of coal was
used.
Not difficult to see how it might be hard to come by nowadays.
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Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jan 29 02:10PM -0800
>I have not heard about germanium in years. When I played around with old
>tube stuff in the 60s - 70s, I remember germanium diodes were fairly
>common. I never ran across a germanium transistor.
Germanium transistors were very common in the 1960's. For example, I
was selling all germanium Motorola pagers and partly germanium mobile
radios at the time. All of the old vibrator power supply to
transistor conversions used germanium power transistors. Most of the
AM car radios were germanium.
Germanium is not dead today. There are SiGe devices that use the best
properties of both materials to good advantage.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon-germanium>
Germanium is also the preferred material for Infrared lenses.
<http://www.iiviinfrared.com/Optical-Materials/ge.html>
>While silicon could be bought in 1998 for less than $10
>per kg, the price of germanium was almost $800 per kg.
Yep. Germanium is expensive. Price at the end of 2015 was $1,760/kg
($800/lb):
<https://minerals.usgs.gov/minerals/pubs/commodity/germanium/mcs-2016-germa.pdf>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
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MJC <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>: Jan 29 10:31PM
In article <3btjA.131757$MU7.29082@fx18.am4>,
Benderthe.evilrobot@virginmedia.com says...
> <oldschool@tubes.com> wrote in message
> news:2gls8c9v6rniulp4et8n6ecvu5stq491ri@4ax.com...
> > I have not heard about germanium in years. When I played around with
old
> > read the following article (good article). I know it was used to make
> > the FIRST semiconductors, I never knew much more about it.
> > It appears it's a costly elemental material.
Back in the early 1960s I conducted an undergraduate/apprentice training
project to build a quartz clock. I think every transistor was germanium.
To divide the crystal frequency by multiple decades it used locked
multivibrators (no digital circuits whatsoever, though my employer made
computers). Anyone seen a circuit like this: https://onedrive.live.com/?
cid=72C9DE495D23AD02&id=72C9DE495D23AD02%215482&parId=72C9DE495D23AD02%
215481&o=OneUp ?
It was my very own design; I still have the circuit value calculations!
Mike.
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jurb6006@gmail.com: Jan 30 01:46AM -0800
Would have liked to see that but onedrive doesn't seem to like my computer. I am sure some sort of download will fix everything but they can stick that where it is sure not to get a sunburn.
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MJC <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>: Jan 30 11:21AM
In article <067ebd37-fe5a-475d-b034-62b5b9a1cb19@googlegroups.com>,
jurb6006@gmail.com says...
> Would have liked to see that but onedrive doesn't seem to like my computer. I am sure some sort of download will fix everything but they can stick that where it is sure not to get a sunburn.
Thanks for that; I'm not good at "sharing"! It should just have been a
URL link. Please try this instead:
<https://goo.gl/photos/cZRDRY1JB3vTTr2F9>
Mike.
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