"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Nov 28 09:45AM -0800
Let's look at this a bit more closely:
Aluminum Oxide, Titanium, Strontium, Barium, Zirconium, Fluorine, Cerium, Rubidium, Chlorine, Lanthanium, Nickel, Neodymium, Praeseodymium, Gallium, Cadmium, Scandium, Molybdenum, Cobalt, Lithium, Niobium, Samarium, Thorium, Mafnium, Cesium, Gadolinium, Holmium, Dysprosium, Uranium, Bromine, Europium, Tin, Antimony, Ytterbium, Terbium, Tungsten, Mercury, Silver, Tantalum, Thuliam, Luteium, Indium, Shenium, Beryllium, Erbium, Thallium, Bismuth, Germanium, Iridium, Rhodium, Palladium, Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen.
The above are included in the "72" list as advertised by any number of trace-mineral supplement sites.
Not listed are the more obvious items such as calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, sulfur, iron, manganese, copper, iodine, zinc, cobalt, fluoride and selenium. Which get you to the 72.
Cadmium is highly toxic (and cumulative) in other than vanishingly small amounts. And, is listed amongst the Most toxic elements together with Beryllium, Chromium, Selenium (necessary, but too much is highly toxic), cesium and a few others. Brute fact: Most of the items on that first list are sufficiently toxic that any amount one could see in its pure form would be a bad idea to ingest. And even in its most common salt (sodium chloride as one example), moderation would be advised at the least, and avoidance more likely.
The problem with listing items as 'necessary for life' without further discussion is that the issue of toxicity is ignored. Vitamin A is good. Too much is toxic. Iron is good, too much is toxic - and so forth.
There is a theory that Human blood apart from specific cells approximates the structure of seawater when the human precursors first popped up - and so the need for these "72" were born. And as with most life, certain creatures 'fix' certain elements - such as mushrooms and selenium, bananas and potassium, shrimp and iodine - you get the picture. Omnivores - creatures with long guts, but a single stomach - generally are exposed to all that they need based on their eating habits. But, not always. Goiter and Iodine is an example of that phenomenon.
Cutting to the chase, the problems with identifying _every_ trace element are:
a) That an element is present does not make it necessary.
b) If the mechanism by which it functions is not understood, then neither is the difference between therapeutic and toxic levels.
c) Enough may be enough, but too much is quite often deadly. And in the case of some - very subtly deadly.
d) How individuals metabolize varies. And therefore tolerance to some elements. Cats, dogs, and many primarily carnivores cannot tolerate common foods humans enjoy. And birds will eat choke-cherries, mistletoe berries, bittersweet and hemlock with no ill effects. Hummingbirds and bees will fertilize foxglove and acanthus without consequence.
Point being that Humans do not know when to stop.
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jurb6006@gmail.com: Nov 28 12:16PM -0800
You've done the homework. Good.
>"a) That an element is present does not make it necessary."
There are some we get plenty of so it is not concern.
>"b) If the mechanism by which it functions is not understood, then neither is the difference between therapeutic and toxic levels."
Hold on there. That statement is off somehow. There is always a difference between therapeutic and toxic. It is true however, that some are more important than others. What's more, the levels needed or toxic will vary person to person especially among those with different lineage. There is proof of this though indirect.
>"c) Enough may be enough, but too much is quite often deadly. And in the case of some - very subtly deadly."
True of anything. Years ago someone did die of water poisoning. It was a water drinking contest, like they h ave taco, pizza or hot wing eating contests. I am not sure if the dead guy won...
>"d) How individuals metabolize varies. And therefore tolerance to some elements. Cats, dogs, and many primarily carnivores cannot tolerate common foods humans enjoy. And birds will eat choke-cherries, mistletoe berries, bittersweet and hemlock with no ill effects. Hummingbirds and bees will fertilize foxglove and acanthus without consequence. "
I think I said that about people, but it applies n spades to different animals. Dogs can eat damnear anything, try it. Koala bears only eat eucalyptus leaves, how they get along without some of the minerals which MUST be deficient in those leaves is unknown, at least to me. Likewise, how do Eskimos get vitamin C ? Humans lost the ability to manufacture C in body they say I think about 10,000 years ago. Why ? How ? And did this supposedly happen to all humans in the space of a few years or what ? It almost can't be environmental, that leaves evolutional. Right ? Not quite sure on that one. I have looked into that and found that they DO have a source of vitamin C, in whale skin. Vitamin C is destroyed at 374F, so I imagine they're not deep frying it and if you've eaten skin, fried is the way to eat it. So they really sit around and eat whale skin ?
The database I offered does contain a significant amount of information on what some of those minerals actually do in the body. It gives information on symptoms of deficiency, diseases that coincide with certain deficiencies, recommended level and sources. The problem is it only has that information on about 20 of them. there are quite a few more. Also, there are a few about which they have little information at all.
Since this hijack was successful (hi Raul, tell Fidel I send him my best) I might excerpt from that to illustrate what is in it. I used to host the files on Dropbox but me and them don't see eye to eye on a couple of things.
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"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Nov 28 01:14PM -0800
> >"b) If the mechanism by which it functions is not understood, then neither is the difference between therapeutic and toxic levels."
> Hold on there. That statement is off somehow. There is always a difference between therapeutic and toxic. It is true however, that some are more important than others. What's more, the levels needed or toxic will vary person to person especially among those with different lineage. There is proof of this though indirect.
I repeat: If you do not know how a mechanism functions, nor what it actually does, nor why it exists, then you cannot know whether it is operating properly or not, whether it is necessary, or not. And whether what it is producing is useful, or not. Nor are you able to recognize, understand, or describe why a given mechanism may be good (therapeutic) or bad (Toxic).
Keep in mind that the core of your premise is that these "72" are necessary for proper metabolism, that is, life. Per William of Occcam, It either is, or it ain't. Can't be both.
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tabbypurr@gmail.com: Nov 28 02:05PM -0800
> Let's look at this a bit more closely:
> Aluminum Oxide, Titanium, Strontium, Barium, Zirconium, Fluorine, Cerium, Rubidium, Chlorine, Lanthanium, Nickel, Neodymium, Praeseodymium, Gallium, Cadmium, Scandium, Molybdenum, Cobalt, Lithium, Niobium, Samarium, Thorium, Mafnium, Cesium, Gadolinium, Holmium, Dysprosium, Uranium, Bromine, Europium, Tin, Antimony, Ytterbium, Terbium, Tungsten, Mercury, Silver, Tantalum, Thuliam, Luteium, Indium, Shenium, Beryllium, Erbium, Thallium, Bismuth, Germanium, Iridium, Rhodium, Palladium, Hydrogen, Carbon, Nitrogen.
> The above are included in the "72" list as advertised by any number of trace-mineral supplement sites.
as ever not all agree with that list
> Not listed are the more obvious items such as calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, sodium, potassium, chloride, sulfur, iron, manganese, copper, iodine, zinc, cobalt, fluoride and selenium. Which get you to the 72.
> Cadmium is highly toxic (and cumulative) in other than vanishingly small amounts. And, is listed amongst the Most toxic elements together with Beryllium, Chromium, Selenium (necessary, but too much is highly toxic), cesium and a few others. Brute fact: Most of the items on that first list are sufficiently toxic that any amount one could see in its pure form would be a bad idea to ingest. And even in its most common salt (sodium chloride as one example), moderation would be advised at the least, and avoidance more likely.
I don't think anyone suggests easting great amounts of trace minerals, so no problem
> The problem with listing items as 'necessary for life' without further discussion is that the issue of toxicity is ignored. Vitamin A is good. Too much is toxic. Iron is good, too much is toxic - and so forth.
it's not ignored at all
> Cutting to the chase, the problems with identifying _every_ trace element are:
> a) That an element is present does not make it necessary.
> b) If the mechanism by which it functions is not understood, then neither is the difference between therapeutic and toxic levels.
that's not logical. The chemical link between boron & arthritis isn't known afaik - icbw - but the pattern of high arthritis in low boron countries & vice versa is very much noticed. It's also not hard to find out what dose & form people have been taking & find that it's safe. No mysteries there. Lots of what goes on in the body we don't fully understand - or often understand much about at all.
> c) Enough may be enough, but too much is quite often deadly. And in the case of some - very subtly deadly.
not sure how death can be subtle.
> d) How individuals metabolize varies. And therefore tolerance to some elements. Cats, dogs, and many primarily carnivores cannot tolerate common foods humans enjoy. And birds will eat choke-cherries, mistletoe berries, bittersweet and hemlock with no ill effects. Hummingbirds and bees will fertilize foxglove and acanthus without consequence.
sure. not a problem.
> Point being that Humans do not know when to stop.
Oh we do. The method of filtering out unsafe medical treatments that has been used for millennia may seem a bit crude but it does work. When that's what you've got it's what you use - or go without the cure.
NT
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tabbypurr@gmail.com: Nov 28 02:06PM -0800
> The database I offered does contain a significant amount of information on what some of those minerals actually do in the body. It gives information on symptoms of deficiency, diseases that coincide with certain deficiencies, recommended level and sources. The problem is it only has that information on about 20 of them. there are quite a few more. Also, there are a few about which they have little information at all.
I'd be interested to see your info. If you email to my addy I can go check it. Cheers,
NT
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jurb6006@gmail.com: Nov 28 10:34PM -0800
>"I repeat: If you do not know how a mechanism functions, nor what it actually does, nor why it exists, then you cannot know whether it is operating properly or not, whether it is necessary, or not. "
Analyse your diet and eliminate everything with chromium and vanadium in it. Do that for two years and eat plenty of sweets, white refined sugar would be best. Now see what happens WITHOUT looking up the chemical reactions dealing with the pancreas, insulin and sugar metabolism in the body.
Your diabetes will be evidence enough. Of course they do know of the chemical reactions, but the point is for YOU not to know, and in such a condition, you will know it is essential.
The statement is not completely worng, it just needs qualification.
>"And whether what it is producing is useful, or not. Nor are you able to recognize, understand, or describe why a given mechanism may be good (therapeutic) or bad (Toxic)."
If you are in good health or bad is an indicator. Perhaps not empirical proof but a definite strong indicator. People have been convicted of murder and executed on such indicators.
>"Keep in mind that the core of your premise is that these "72" are necessary for proper metabolism, that is, life."
It is not purely a matted of breathing. I don't mind dying but I want to be healthy when I do it. You can exist with heart disease, diabetes, liver and kidney problems, no gall bladder, prostrate problems, roids, deaf, near blind, no teeth and brittle bones. You can exist for a long time like that. Do you want to ? derived and circumstantial evidence while not absolute, should not be discarded.
>"Per William of Occcam, It either is, or it ain't. Can't be both. "
Per someone else (Menken ?) there is always an answer that is simple - and WRONG. Yes, the razor applies to many things, but there are those things about which direct evidence is not available. That does not mean the proper course of action is to totally disregard everything, throw your hands up in apathy and quit.
For example it is damn hard to tell if someone is actually getting their minerals. Even if ingested not everyone metabolises them the same or at the same rate. What might work for one may be totally unassimilated for another. Some respond better to chelated supplements, others colloidal.
The only way to tell for sure is to perform biopsies on several organs, that is invasive and dangerous. So what is the most logical course of action ? Cower all the bases.
If you have no idea what the toxic level of something is, which of course varies according to the compound in which it is ingested, it can be estimated by the relative levels found in healthily grown foods. You need chromium, eating wrenches though will not supply you with anything. Chromium picolinate for example, might.
Soon, I am going to paste one of the pages form the database here and we'll see what those people know and don't know. In fact there are some things they don't know and they come out and flatly say it.
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jurb6006@gmail.com: Nov 28 10:39PM -0800
Is that tabypurr ? I don't seem to be able to get it using the Google interface. If so it is on its way soon.
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jurb6006@gmail.com: Nov 28 11:00PM -0800
This is one of the pages from the database. It is succinct and contains more than the word count would suggest. Fonts and point sizes are of course lost, I just hope I don't have to redo the line feeds...:-)
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Copper
Copper is an essential trace element for humans, animals and many plants. The average adult contains between 75 and 150 mg copper and about half of this is contained in the skeleton and the muscles. Copper is most concentrated in the brain and liver.
What it does in the body
Copper is an important component in many enzymes in the body. A copper- containing enzyme plays a vital role in energy production in cells. The activity of this enzyme is highest in the heart, brain, liver and kidney.
Connective tissue formation
An enzyme responsible for the production of the connective tissue proteins, collagen and elastin, requires copper. It is therefore necessary for the development and maintenance of blood vessels, skin, bone and joints.
Iron metabolism and blood
Copper is involved in the release of iron from storage sites and is involved in the formation of bone marrow and the maturation of red blood cells.
Brain and nervous system
Copper is necessary for the synthesis of cell membrane phospholipids, and so helps maintain myelin, the insulating sheath that surrounds nerve cells. It also helps regulate neurotransmitter levels.
Antioxidant
Copper is part of the enzyme copper-zinc superoxide dismutase, an antioxidant vital for protection against free radical damage. Maintaining the correct balance between zinc and copper is important in many body functions involving superoxide dismutase.
Immune system
Copper is important in developing resistance to infection. During inflammation or infection, two copper-containing compounds, superoxide dismutase and ceruloplasmin, are mobilized in the body. Copper is also necessary for T cell function and maturation.
Cardiovascular system
Copper is essential for the contractility of heart muscle. It is also necessary for the healthy function of small blood vessels that control blood flow and nutrient and waste exchange. It is also necessary for the functioning of the muscles of the blood vessels and is involved in the functioning of blood vessel linings and platelets which may play a role in blood clotting.1
Other functions
The formation of melanin, a natural coloring pigment found in skin and hair, involves a copper-dependent enzyme. The enzyme histaminase, which metabolizes histamine, requires copper. Copper is involved in fat and cholesterol metabolism and in the normal functioning of insulin which regulates glucose metabolism. It also contributes to the synthesis of prostaglandins, compounds that regulate a variety of functions such as heartbeat, blood pressure and wound-healing.
Absorption and metabolism
Around 30 per cent of dietary intake of copper is absorbed in the stomach and upper intestine. It is transferred across the gut wall and carried to the liver where it combines with proteins including ceruloplasmin. This protein is released into the blood and carries copper to body tissues. Adequate protein improves copper absorption. Excretion is mostly via secretion in bile into the gastrointestinal tract and then elimination in the feces.
Deficiency
Symptoms of copper deficiency in babies include failure to thrive, pale skin, anemia, diarrhea, lack of pigment in hair and skin, and prominent dilated veins. In adults, symptoms include anemia, water retention, weakness of blood vessel walls, irritability, brittle bones, hair depigmentation, poor hair texture and loss of sense of taste.
Children at risk of deficiency include those with Menkes' syndrome, a rare disorder which means they are unable to absorb copper. Malnourished, premature infants and those who have iron deficiency anemia are also at risk. Milk, in general, is low in copper; although absorption from breast milk is more efficient than that from cow's milk and formula.
Those who eat large amounts of phytates which bind copper in the gut, those whose diets are highly refined, those who have prolonged diarrhea or those with high intakes of zinc, cadmium, fluoride or molybdenum may be at risk of deficiency.
Immune system
Copper deficiency can lead to reduced resistance to infection as white blood cell activity and cellular immune responses are reduced. The ratio of zinc to copper may also affect immune system effectiveness. Susceptibility to disease seems to increase when copper intake is high and zinc intake is low.
Nervous system
Copper deficiency can impair the function of the nervous system. This impairment causes poor concentration, numbness and tingling, and a variety of nervous system disorders.
Heart disease
A deficiency of copper may contribute to heart disease. Copper deficiencies have been associated with poor heart muscle, a drop in beneficial HDL cholesterol and an increase in harmful LDL cholesterol. In animals, copper intake has also been associated with weakening of heart connective tissue and rupture of blood vessels. Alterations in blood clotting mechanism and the muscular activity of blood vessels may also occur. The ratio of zinc to copper may be important in the regulation of blood cholesterol.
Collagen defects
Copper deficiency leads to poor collagen formation, the protein component of connective tissue which may result in bone deformities, damaged blood vessels, reduced resiliency of skin and other internal and external linings of the body.
Other problems
Copper intakes may be low in rheumatoid arthritis sufferers and may contribute to the incidence of the disease.2 Copper deficiency may also be involved in high blood pressure.3
Sources
Good food sources include liver, shellfish, brewer's yeast, olives, nuts, whole grains, beans and chocolate. Copper from food processing and storage, pesticides and fungicides in food and copper kettles also contribute to copper in the diet. Up to 70 per cent of the copper content of flour may be lost when it is refined.
Beef liver, fried 85g 3.77 mg
Peanuts ½ cup 1.59 mg
Walnuts 1 cup, chopped 1.58 mg
Sesame seeds ¼ cup 1.40 mg
Almonds 1 cup 1.27 mg
Sardines, canned in tomato sauce1 can 1.01 mg
Oysters 6 pieces 0.80 mg
Crab, cooked 1 cup 0.72 mg
Soybeans, cooked 1 cup 0.66 mg
Sunflower seeds ¼ cup 0.60 mg
Chickpeas, cooked 1 cup 0.55 mg
Avocado 1 avocado 0.53 mg
Lentils, cooked 1 cup 0.48 mg
Tofu ½ cup 0.47 mg
Wheatgerm ½ cup 0.44 mg
Kidney beans, cooked 1 cup 0.41 mg
Beet greens, cooked 1 cup 0.34 mg
Mushrooms, raw 1 cup, slices 0.32 mg
Spinach, cooked 1 cup 0.29 mg
Wholewheat spaghetti 1 cup 0.22 mg
Cocoa powder 1 tbsp 0.21 mg
Brown rice, cooked 1 cup 0.19 mg
Milk chocolate 1 bar 0.17 mg
Recommended dietary allowances
There is no RDA for copper. Safe and adequate intake is estimated to range from 1.5 to 3 mg per day. The UK RNI is 1.2 mg for adults.
Supplements
Copper supplements are available in various forms including copper amino acid chelate, copper gluconate and copper sulfate. Some experts feel that copper should not be supplemented as there is a fine line between therapeutic and toxic doses.
Toxic effects of excess intake
Toxicity of copper is thought to be fairly rare but high concentrations (daily intakes of 200 mg and over) can cause effects such as nausea, vomiting, abdominal pain, diarrhea, muscle pains, heart problems, immune suppression and abnormal mental states. The lethal dose for copper may be as low as 3.5 g. Imbalance in the copper to zinc ratio may be an important factor in copper toxicity.
Patients with ulcerative colitis may accumulate copper in the tissues and the excess of copper may aggravate the disease. High copper levels may also be a risk factor for heart disease.
A study done in 1998 in Wisconsin suggests that high levels of copper in the water supply may increase the rate of gastrointestinal upsets. The researchers assessed copper levels in several homes with new water distribution systems. Their findings suggested that copper-contaminated drinking water was a common cause of nausea, diarrhea, abdominal cramps, and headaches in areas where water supplies are naturally corrosive.4
Wilson's disease
Wilson's disease is a rare genetic disorder affecting one in 30 000 people, in which the liver is unable to remove copper from the body. Excessive amounts of copper accumulate, leading to symptoms of liver disease and loss of mental function. Drugs to remove excess copper, and zinc to promote excretion of copper, are used to treat Wilson's disease.
Therapeutic uses of supplements
Copper is used therapeutically to treat deficiency symptoms and iron deficiency anemia. Copper is present in expectorant cough mixtures, cough suppressant preparations and decongestants.
Heart disease
Copper supplements have been shown to have beneficial effects on the oxidation of blood fats. A 1997 study done over four weeks at Ohio State University found that 2 mg per day of copper increased the time taken for LDL cholesterol to become oxidized.5 This helps to reduce the damage these fats do to arteries and limits the build-up of atherosclerotic plaque.
Arthritis
The wearing of copper bracelets as a cure for arthritis is an old remedy which may have some scientific support. It is possible that the copper combines with compounds in the skin which are then absorbed and exert anti-inflammatory effects. Copper is part of ceruloplasmin which acts as both an anti-inflammatory agent and as an antioxidant, and plays a role in the body's reaction to inflammatory conditions such as rheumatoid arthritis.
Interactions with other nutrients
Copper to zinc ratio
Zinc and copper compete with each other for absorption. Excess zinc intake for prolonged periods can lead to copper deficiency. Altered copper to zinc ratios may play a role in several disorders including heart disease and some types of cancer including those of the breast, lung and gastrointestinal tract. There is some suggestion that this may be useful as a diagnostic test. Copper zinc ratios also seem to be high in violence-prone males (See page 323 for more information.)
Copper-zinc superoxide dismutase levels seem to be altered in rheumatoid arthritis. Those with the disease have higher serum copper/zinc superoxide dismutase levels than those without.6
Other vitamins and minerals
Iron and copper interact in several ways. Copper deficiency alters iron metabolism, causing it to accumulate in the liver. Excess iron can lead to copper deficiency. High molybdenum intakes may increase copper excretion. High doses of vitamin C may alter copper metabolism and lead to deficiency states.
1 Schuschke DA. Dietary copper in the physiology of the microcirculation. Nutr, 1997 Dec, 127:12, 2274-81
2 Kremer JM; Bigaouette J Nutrient intake of patients with rheumatoid arthritis is deficient in pyridoxine, zinc, copper, and magnesium. J Rheumatol, 1996 Jun, 23:6, 990-4
3 Lukaski HC; Klevay LM; Milne DB Effects of dietary copper on human autonomic cardiovascular function. Eur J Appl Physiol, 1988, 58:1-2, 74-80
4 Knobeloch L; Schubert C; Hayes J; Clark J; Fitzgerald C; Fraundorff A Gastrointestinal upsets and new copper plumbing-is there a connection? WMJ, 1998 Jan, 97:1, 49-53
5 Jones AA; DiSilvestro RA; Coleman M; Wagner TL Copper supplementation of adult men: effects on blood copper enzyme activities and indicators of cardiovascular disease risk. Metabolism, 1997 Dec, 46:12, 1380-3
6 Serum copper/zinc superoxide dismutase levels in patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Mazzetti I; Grigolo B; Borzì RM; Meliconi R; Facchini A. Int J Clin Lab Res, 1996, 26:4, 245-9
Copyright Bookman Press 1998
nickir@bookman.com.au
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Think maybe the rest of that is worth a 130KB download ?
Also, when reading the whole thing you'll find they more than once mention that the mineral content of the foods depends upon the soil in which it is grown. You don't hear about this as they spout their shit about cholesterol and fat, it does not make a good case for commercial farming. If you don't think the land is played out ask a cattle farmer why his livestock gets comprehensive mineral supplements. Without them, the animals would not make it to market weight. They have no other incentive to pay for this except that now the USDA did get involved and start requiring them. Look it up. In fact the government surprised me doing something right, years ago an association of meat growers petitioned to be allowed to stop the supplements during the last month before slaughter. the government rejected their request.
Good. That shows just how much they care about their customers.
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tabbypurr@gmail.com: Nov 29 01:02AM -0800
> You need chromium, eating wrenches though will not supply you with anything.
What? Damn!
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tabbypurr@gmail.com: Nov 29 01:04AM -0800
> Is that tabypurr ? I don't seem to be able to get it using the Google interface. If so it is on its way soon.
Yup, at gmail dotty commy. If you sent it it didn't arrive.
thanks.
NT
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