| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 12:19AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:20 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >longevity? >I'm not saying they didn't, but I don't see how they play a role in engine >longevity other than in the tuneup arena where they were an immense help. The computer controls fuel mixture and ignition timing, making the engine burn more efficiently and more cleanly - reducing carbon loading of the engine oil, as well as almost completely eliminating fuel dilution and cyl wall washdown - which makes the rings last a lot longer, as well as bearings and timing gears/chains/tensioners. The vast majority of engine wear was caused in the startup and warmup mode. Computer control has virtually eliminated those problems. (mainly the elimination of the choke and better atomization of fuel using port injection. GDI makes it almost an order of magnitude better again. |
| rbowman <bowman@montana.com>: Nov 04 10:20PM -0600 On 11/4/2017 8:45 PM, Clifford Heath wrote: > My grandfather had a pair of Jowett Javelins in the 1950's. > With the Solex carbies, tuneup's were more of a morning *and* afternoon > thing. For a Healey with multiple SUs 'tuneup' was very apropos. I never had the fancy gauges so I'd just make sure they were whistling in tune. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 12:20AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:21 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >The main lubricant, of course, is motor oil, which has gone from SB to SC, >to SD to SE .... now to somewhere around SL, SM, SN ... but has *that* been >contributing to engine life by a lot? Yes. Definitely. >u-joints and suspension balljoints. >But really. Do we have any evidence that lubrication is why engines seem to >last longer nowadays? The manufacturers and oil companies do. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 12:22AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:23 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >heavy duty switch for "bumping" the engine. I forget even why I *built* >that thing. >Why did we bump the engine? I forget why. To get the engine in the correct position to agust points, or adjust valve clearances, usually. |
| The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Nov 04 09:31PM -0700 On 11/04/2017 02:19 PM, RS Wood wrote: >> LTD. One loose bolt, one dropped on top of the starter and one >> completely missing. He was partially right, it ran for a couple of >> years afterward. I needed 2 feet of extensions to tighten the bolts. I suppose that sort of explains why the jerk did such a crappy job. > I can't count the number of times I've seen someone use a screwdriver as a > prybar on, say, plastic twist-off hubcaps, or who used a pair of pliers > instead of a socket, or who used an adjustable wrench instead of a socket. Whenever we see something with a rounded nut or bolt we think "Patrick was here." Pat is one of my son's friends who NEVER had the right tool. -- Cheers, Bev "If you like to stand on your head and spit pickles in the snow, on the Internet there are at least three other people just like you." - Langston James Goree VI |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:33AM rbowman wrote: > Belts are cheaper but pissed off customers aren't. I agree. They can't save enough money on a belt to compensate for the fact that we wouldn't purchase the car. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:36AM rbowman wrote: > For a Healey with multiple SUs 'tuneup' was very apropos. I never had > the fancy gauges so I'd just make sure they were whistling in tune. All you needed for a tuneup on a motorcycle, at least my Japanese bike of the time, was a screwin dial gage for the number 1 cylinder and a buzzer for the points to let you know when they opened. Nothing fancy needed by way of tools other than that. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:38AM >>But really. Do we have any evidence that lubrication is why engines seem to >>last longer nowadays? > The manufacturers and oil companies do. I guess then, that the longevity is due to two things in general (so far). 1. Better lubricants and seals 2. Better fuels (for example detergents and loss of lead) Interesting that it's not better design of engines. |
| The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Nov 04 09:39PM -0700 >>cheap for our own good. > KD makes a special tool for that - at the value O put on skin and > suffering, cheap at twice the price 30+ years ago. Ratchet box wrench? >>springs on the drums went. I couldn't believe how easy pads were; it >>took me longer to find the C-clamp than to do the work :-( > A cell phone camera makes all of that SO much simpler!!! So would a time machine! -- Cheers, Bev "If you like to stand on your head and spit pickles in the snow, on the Internet there are at least three other people just like you." - Langston James Goree VI |
| rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Nov 05 12:40AM -0400 RS Wood wrote on 11/4/2017 11:55 PM: > hands. So two years is too short. > Meanwhile, the garbage bins last forever outside. > Why can they make a garbage bin last forever but not a Costco picnic table? Because they are making the table to sell at the lowest price while the bin has a specification. Price, stop buying things based on the price! I bet you didn't even ask about the materials used in the table. I can assure you the city who bought the bin asked what it was made of. So the fault, really, is yours. > Is that what makes those garbage bins last forever outside? > If so, that's what I want in my picnic table from Costco! > And in all the pool equipment. When you return the table tell them that... and you will be ignored because they made a lot of money selling the same crap they sold last year in spite of the few who returned them. >> understand the only alternative is stainless steel which is *much* more >> expensive. > I used to patch mufflers, like we all did. Illegal because the patches are crap and the rest of the muffler won't last another six months. My mufflers don't get leaks, the flange breaks off on the pipe. Try fixing that. > But I haven't replaced a muffler in decades. > Why? > I'm not sure why. Because it isn't worth it. When any part of the exhaust system goes bad you are better off replacing it all. > I don't even look at the exhaust anymore, it's that reliable. > I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel. > Is it not? No, it's not. It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years. -- Rick C Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998 |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:42AM >>Why did we bump the engine? I forget why. > To get the engine in the correct position to agust points, or adjust > valve clearances, usually. Oh yeah. Thanks for reminding me. I think about those tools once a decade, but they just sit there otherwise, all packed up neatly. I forgot about those shims I would slip in to adjust the overhead valves. And I forgot about getting the distributor in the right place. That bumper came in handy but you had to remember to pull the center wire! :) |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:46AM > Aluminum conducts heat a lot better than iron or steel, so aluminum > heads allow higher compression ratios without causing detonation than > iron heads. Aluminum is also a lot lighter, reducing fuel consumption. You bring up pinging, which, I forgot, we now have knock sensors to help control, so that's likely one more reason for longevity (that is, no pinging can occur nowadays, at least not until it overpowers the retarding of the timing that the knock sensors do). |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:48AM The Real Bev wrote: > Whenever we see something with a rounded nut or bolt we think "Patrick > was here." Pat is one of my son's friends who NEVER had the right tool. I think they should make adjustable wrenches illegal. I can't for the life of me figure out a use for them. |
| The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Nov 04 09:51PM -0700 On 11/04/2017 08:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > determinant that made Detroit start thinking about quality. > If that's the case, you have to hand it to Japan for even coming up with > the idea of quality in the first place. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming Japan was smart enough to listen to him. > It's rare though for tools to go out of style. I'm still using my first > Christmas gift of Sears Craftsman open-end wrenches, for example. Back when they were GOOD tools. The last Craftsman tool I bought was a 10mm socket (yeah, I know, like everybody else I have a LOT of them, I just couldn't find one) -- I peeled some of the chrome off with my thumbnail. -- Cheers, Bev "If you like to stand on your head and spit pickles in the snow, on the Internet there are at least three other people just like you." - Langston James Goree VI |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 12:53AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:24 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >to, but is metallurgy really different? There's a lot more aluminum >nowadays, and certainly too much plastic, but rubber is rubber and steel is >steel and I don't think either got all that much better in the interim. The aluminum alloying science has made leaps in the last 50 years - and so has steelmaking and heat treating. Never heard of Cryo treatment years ago. Never heard of powdered metal either. Lots more chromium and moly and cobalt etc used in exotic steels today too. Synthetic rubbers and plastics have also improved in thousands of ways in the last 50 years. This means seals , belts, hoses, etc can ALL last MUCH longer than their older counterparts. >Engine controls maybe. But they're mostly emission related nowadays. Emission management , as I noted previously, does a lot more than make cleaner air. How do you think we get as much horsepower out of a 2 liter engine today as we got out of 5 or 6 liter engines in the very recent past??? >The actual danger zone parts are the oil pressure sensor, coolant >temperature sensor, oil lever sensor, etc., and I don't think they're all >that sophisticated compared to the days of yore, do you? The oil pressure sensor has nothing to do with it until the engine fails. The coolant temp sensors are much more accurate than they used to be, and now they actually do something more than telling you if the engine is overheating. The oil level sensor is also an afterthought and basically un-necessary - as most engines will go over 3000 miles without using ANY measurable amount of oil. >> This means a lot less acids in the oil, exhaust, etc. >Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.... really? The fuel contributes to engine life? >I don't dispute. I just don't compute. I've explained it in another post >> adolescent - it has matured over the ensuing decades in SO many ways. >I don't disagree that the carburetor is gone, thank God, but it's still in >airplanes and they seem to do fine with them (small planes that is). What is the average MTBF on certified aircraft engines???? Most are doing good to get over 1500 hours. at 60mph that would be only 90000 miles in a car. Many have the top end rebuilt long before that - or cyls replaced. They also burn prodigious amounts of oil. >While EFI is great stuff, I don't see that the longevity of an engine is >dependent on the fuel volatilization method. You don't see it because you do not understand all the implications of fuel mixture control. >This one I agree with you on, but I blame Detroit for making crap that they >*knew* was crap. Painting can't be all that sophisticated today compared to >yesterday. It just can't be. They just did a lousy job before, I think. There again, you have no comprehension of the inticacies of corrosion control and metal primers etc - not to mention seam sealers. Goes WAY beyond the surface coating, color and shine. >But then again, painting is a job I never did, so, maybe I didn't learn >anything! :) It's more the prep than the paint - but the paint has REALLY changed in the last 20 years - more rhan in the previous 100. >timing changed, because, as I recall, we twisted the distributor to time >the engine where, the distributor would have no reason to twist back once >locked down. The timing changed when the points wore, among other things. >seemed paradoxically to require replacement more often. I remember once >diagnosing a misfire where I accidentally worked until it got dark and then >realized there was a light show going on with all the sparks to ground. And you don't think plastics and rubbers have changed appreciably for the better? >Heh heh heh ... working on coils and ignition wires teaches a youngster >with a steel screwdriver a *lot* about electricity wanting to get to >ground! Even back in the early seventies I was using wires that allowed me to run my old Chrysler products with a carwash hose trained on the ignition system. The cheapest wires today are better that those top quality "space age" wires. >> Even spark plugs go 100,000 km plus - - - >Oh yeah. I forgot about spark plugs. I had a two-stroke motorcycle, for >example, which couldn't go five hundred miles on a set of plugs. And unleaded gas is one of the main reasons this is possible today. >steel. I think the higher voltages helped, which, again, paradoxically, >you'd think the higher coil voltages would eat the plugs faster ... not >slower by the process of electrodialectric machining. The platinum is a large part of this - you never saw platinum plugs in the past. Iridium finewire plugs were the hot item for snowmobiles and bikes back then - and they were PRICEY. >but I don't see that we've nailed it yet. >I still think it's simply that Japanaese cars existing made Detroit build >better engines overall. Believe me, as someone who worked on Toyotas back in the very early seventies, quality was not their strong point back then They rusted like a ford (or worse) and they had metalurgy problems in their aluminum heads, and a lot of other places. What made the difference is they learned from their mistakes - the Japs have never really been inventors - but they can refine a poor design into something fantastic - that's what they do exremely well. >Most of us old timers have at the very least a million miles under our >belts. When we were kids, all our cars started at 10 or 15 years old, where >that was new to us. Most cars were junk at 10 years back then. People didn't put on the miles they do today, generally speaking, but I've put a LOT of vehicles over the 200,000 mile mark in the past. >you have the option, the six cylinder options when an 8-cylinder option >exists or the 4 cylinder option when a 6 cylinder option exists is a >Godsend because you have so much more room in that engine bay. But if they have to work too hard, the bigger engine won't need as much repair - so it sometimes more than ballances out. >> You don't have a wife???? >She's somewhere in the garden, not the garage. >The kids have kids already too, so they're off somewhere to play. She doesn't have a "honey-do" list that, in her mind, takes priority over the car repairs?? "you haven't got it fixed YET???" - >You pay for their school. You pay for their grad school. >And then you only get to see them on holidays. >Or when they need their cars fixed! :) At least my oldest is back in the country most of the time now - even though she's only been "home" for about 3 weeks since the middle of September and she'll only be "home " for about 15 days between now and Christmas. "home" being about 5 miles from here. She will be in Africa and Asia the rest of the time (work) |
| The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Nov 04 09:58PM -0700 On 11/04/2017 08:32 PM, RS Wood wrote: > One more thing, the word "brake warp" or "rotor warp" is banished from your > vocabulary. Anyone who uses those two words, is simply proving they're an > utter fool. BUT you do need to replace the rotors (wrecking yard is probably OK) if you kept putting off changing the pads until they stopped squealing and the backing plates started grinding deep (1/4") grooves into the rotors. Amazingly enough, braking worked just fine until the hogging-in started. -- Cheers, Bev "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet." -- Anon. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:59AM The Real Bev wrote: >> KD makes a special tool for that - at the value O put on skin and >> suffering, cheap at twice the price > 30+ years ago. Ratchet box wrench? Speaking of ratchet box wrench, I learned long ago that the "fancy" tools were worse than the simple tools. There's nothing wrong with a box wrench. Nothing. It doesn't need plastic inserts. It doesn't need a ratcheting mechanism. It doesn't need replaceable heads. All that stuff makes it BIGGER (which is bad when it matters). All that stuff makes it WEAKER (which is bad when it matters). All that stuff makes it less reliable (which is bad too). KISS. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 04:59AM rickman wrote: > you didn't even ask about the materials used in the table. I can assure you > the city who bought the bin asked what it was made of. So the fault, > really, is yours. While I'm sure the fault is always mine for buying *anything* but garbage bins that is made of plastic, I'm not as confident as you that the material is so easy to figure out. For one, we still don't know what material the garbage bins are made out of (coating or otherwise). So asking wouldn't work unless we knew what answer we wanted to hear. What I'm saying is that it's not so simple. I'm also assuming that NOBODY here knows what the answer should be. Do you? What chemical are we looking for? > When you return the table tell them that... and you will be ignored because > they made a lot of money selling the same crap they sold last year in spite > of the few who returned them. Luckily, Costco takes anything back (except electronics), even years later. > Illegal because the patches are crap and the rest of the muffler won't last > another six months. My mufflers don't get leaks, the flange breaks off on > the pipe. Try fixing that. I don't disagree. I hated working on mufflers. That was before my gas welding days. With a gas welder, removing mufflers would have been a *lot* easier. > Because it isn't worth it. When any part of the exhaust system goes bad you > are better off replacing it all. Not gonna disagree. It's like replacing "just" the water pump. Once you rip all that stuff off, you may as well do the thermostat, hoses, radiator, cap, overflow tank, etc. >> I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel. >> Is it not? > No, it's not. It's still the same steel that lasts around 4 years. My bimmer is approaching 20 years on the same exhaust system. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:02AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:32:30 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >pretty stuff doesn't matter. Solid is the way to go. The cheaper the >better. For example, you can get Brembo rotors for less than the OEM >rotors, where a rotor is a rotor is a rotor. Not so. There is a BIG difference between some good rotors and some cheap one - bad metalurfy will cause hard spotting, and glazing and pitting and warping. The trick is finding the good ones - >And one more thing. Since you do the work yourself, you buy the tools, >where brake jobs don't necessarily take special tools (although calipers >sometimes need oddball-sized hex wrenches on German cars). Or retractor tools for rear disc brakes with integral e-brakes. >One more thing, the word "brake warp" or "rotor warp" is banished from your >vocabulary. Anyone who uses those two words, is simply proving they're an >utter fool. No, some rotors DO warp. So do some drums. Most "warped" rotors, however, are either pitted or hard spotted. >That's the kind of stuff you learn by doing the job yourself. The kind of stuff you learn working on hundreds of cars a year for 1/4 century, and supervizing a shopfull of mechanics for a decade. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:08AM -0400 >expensive. You could get a stainless steel exhaust system the first time >you replace it, but you would need to keep the vehicle for twenty more years >to make it pay off. I have not changed an exhaust system or a muffler in about 20 years - and my current vehicles are 16 and 22 years old. But then I buy REAL cars that come with stainless exhausts from the factory. The last system I had to replace I put on stainless for only a few bucks more than OEM (Ford Aerostar). Lasted another 140,000 km before the truck was scrapped. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:13AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:55:28 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >hands. So two years is too short. >Meanwhile, the garbage bins last forever outside. >Why can they make a garbage bin last forever but not a Costco picnic table? Because they need to sell you picnic tables to stay in business. The garbage collectors smash up the bins so they still get replaced. >>> pool tools. >> You can ask about the materials when you buy stuff. It's not the plastic, >> but whether the plastic has UV resistance additives. Actually, it's both. >Is that what makes those garbage bins last forever outside? >If so, that's what I want in my picnic table from Costco! You won'r buy it for $29.99 if it's made of the "good stuff" >I used to patch mufflers, like we all did. >And we all know what a pain it was to get the old ones off. >Forget about those u-bolt nuts ever twisting off. I gave up on patching mufflers after the first one. >I don't even look at the exhaust anymore, it's that reliable. >I thought the whole thing from the cat back was stainless steel. >Is it not? It is on most cars - actually from the manifold back - and often even the (tubular) manifolds. |
| RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid>: Nov 05 05:13AM > and so has steelmaking and heat treating. Never heard of Cryo > treatment years ago. Never heard of powdered metal either. Lots more > chromium and moly and cobalt etc used in exotic steels today too. Lots of good stuff there. > Synthetic rubbers and plastics have also improved in thousands of > ways in the last 50 years. This means seals , belts, hoses, etc can > ALL last MUCH longer than their older counterparts. Good stuff there too. > cleaner air. How do you think we get as much horsepower out of a 2 > liter engine today as we got out of 5 or 6 liter engines in the very > recent past??? Ok. Good stuff there too. > engine is overheating. The oil level sensor is also an afterthought > and basically un-necessary - as most engines will go over 3000 miles > without using ANY measurable amount of oil. Gotta agree. Mine leaks not a drop. > You don't see it because you do not understand all the implications > of fuel mixture control. Can't disagree with you. > There again, you have no comprehension of the inticacies of corrosion > control and metal primers etc - not to mention seam sealers. Goes WAY > beyond the surface coating, color and shine. Gotta be true because rust buckets don't seem to exist anymore. > It's more the prep than the paint - but the paint has REALLY changed > in the last 20 years - more rhan in the previous 100. See above. No rust buckets anymore so there is truth in there somewhere. > The timing changed when the points wore, among other things. Yeah. I forgot. It has been, oh, how long since we adjusted timing? Decades at the very least. > And you don't think plastics and rubbers have changed appreciably for > the better? Maybe. I still see lots and lots of buna o-rings that should be viton. > run my old Chrysler products with a carwash hose trained on the > ignition system. The cheapest wires today are better that those top > quality "space age" wires. Gotta agree with you. Wires don't even exist much at all but those that do exist, seem to last a long time nowadays. We used to replace ignition wires with every second or third tuneup, as I recall. I even bought the set where you cut them and made them to fit. Dumb idea because they stunk the most. > And unleaded gas is one of the main reasons this is possible today. I don't know enough to disagree. Detergents (polyetheramines) probably helped too, Techron be known. > The platinum is a large part of this - you never saw platinum plugs > in the past. Iridium finewire plugs were the hot item for snowmobiles > and bikes back then - and they were PRICEY. Must be the platinum because a plug is a simple thing. I'm sure engineers fret about every little thing, but pretty much you buy the right one and put it in. I never found anything useful about changing the heat ratings. It's amazing to me that we don't gap them anymore though. You'd wonder why the gap mattered in the days of yore and now it doesn't matter. I don't get that. > they learned from their mistakes - the Japs have never really been > inventors - but they can refine a poor design into something fantastic > - that's what they do exremely well. Yeah. I forgot about my "Z" cars (Datsun days). They were rust buckets. > Most cars were junk at 10 years back then. People didn't put on the > miles they do today, generally speaking, but I've put a LOT of > vehicles over the 200,000 mile mark in the past. Yep. 10 years was about it. Now it's 20 years. Double. > But if they have to work too hard, the bigger engine won't need as > much repair - so it sometimes more than ballances out. Not gonna take you up on this one. There's no such thing as 'working harder'. Just not gonna fly with me. The torque curve is the torque curve and the gears do the fixing of that for me. The SIZE is physically different. I'm not gonna believe a small engine has to 'work harder' than a big engine and so it won't last as long. Nope. That's the one thing you're going to have to prove to me. (The rest I believe you on.) > She doesn't have a "honey-do" list that, in her mind, takes priority > over the car repairs?? "you haven't got it fixed YET???" - Yeah. But I don't think she even remembers my name anymore. :) > of September and she'll only be "home " for about 15 days between now > and Christmas. "home" being about 5 miles from here. She will be in > Africa and Asia the rest of the time (work) That's another thing. My kids have been flying to other countries since they were born. When did YOU first leave the country? I think I did when I was in my thirties. Maybe late twenties. Boy oh boy though, did the airplanes have service! But that's another difference in the days of yore! |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:17AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 03:55:30 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >I didn't know that the lead deposits fouled the plugs but it makes sense >since lead will conduct (but that's only elemental lead which tetraethyl >lead may or may not end up as on a plug). Ltad oxide and lead sulfide conduct. Lead sulfide is a semiconductor (galena?) formed by reaction of lead and sulphur in gasoline. >still have, somewhere, a cigarette-lighter-socket operated spark plug >sandblaster, which I forgot all about until you mentioned this plug fouling >stuff. The lead sulfide cannot be blasted off (it is yellow/green) and causes severe misfires >I suspect the platinum coating made a big difference in the plug life, but >I don't know that for a fact. The multiple electrodes may have helped >although only one will carry the spark in general. The platinum is NOT plating - it is a platinum chip welded to the (usually copper cored) steel electrode. Many have plat chips on the ground electrode now too. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:20AM -0400 On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 04:04:28 +0000 (UTC), RS Wood <rswood@is.invalid> wrote: >injector but that hasn't been used itself in decades. >Other than OBD scanners, what is a *new* tool that we have needed that we >didn't use in the days of yore? A good low impedence multitester, and occaisionally a "power injector", and occaisionally a logic tester (generally part of the power injector) |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Nov 05 01:24AM -0400 On Sat, 4 Nov 2017 21:39:37 -0700, The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> wrote: >> KD makes a special tool for that - at the value O put on skin and >> suffering, cheap at twice the price >30+ years ago. Ratchet box wrench? Nope - just a real shallow socket on a steel bar about 1/8 x 1/2 x 16" |
| You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to sci.electronics.repair+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. |
No Response to "Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 1 topic"
Post a Comment