Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 2 topics

John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 04:58PM

Ed Pawlowski actually said:
 
> I've done wheel alignment in my garage
 
What we don't want is advice from people who would never contemplate doing
a camber measurement at home.
 
We want advice from people who have actually checked camber at home:
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
 
All the advice from tlvp, for example, of why he would NOT to check his
camber at home is and was already known before he posted anything. He added
negative value to this thread.
 
Since he would never do it, he has never thought about how to do it, and
since he not only knows not how to do it, but more importantly, he has
never done it, so his advice not to do it doesn't help anyone.
 
He simply wasted everyone's time with his fear-filled response.
 
Likewise, you waste everyone's time with your I-won't-tell-you response.
If you're not going to tell anyone anything, then why bother responding?
 
Besides, you only pretend to have done it, which is fine, but you playing
make believe doesn't help anyone here. I knew all this would happen,
because most people are utterly horrified at the mere thought of checking
camber at home so I was trying to avoid having to respond to comments like
yours and tlvp's which simply waste everyone's time.
 
Based on these specs ( http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg) the measurement
range is plus or minus 3 degrees to an accuracy of plus or minus one
minute.
 
If we can't achieve one minute of accuracy out of a mobile device, what
*is* the accuracy thqt we *can* achieve out of a mobile device?
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 05:16PM

amdx actually said:
 
> the **** is the millimeters or inches, BUT, the quantity of millimeters
> or inches depends on the length of l, as you can see the longer l the
> larger **** will be. But the angle stays the same.
 
Nice graphic!
 
To your point, I completely agree that I'm utterly confused when it comes
to "toe" angles.
 
It was my mistake to ever bring in the concept of "toe" to this discussion
because, while measuring toe with a tape measure at home is relatively easy
(once the mechanical overhang problem is solved), *converting* the damn
manufacturer's spec from angles to inches is the *confusion* I have.
 
Here is the toe spec for a similar vehicle to mine:
http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif
 
Notice that the "total toe" spec is 0 degrees 14 minutes plus or minus 10
minutes.
 
Also notice that the measurement accuracy for "total wheel toe" is also
given in similar units of a measuring accuracy of plus or minus two minutes
in a measuring range of plus or minus two degrees within a measuring range
of plus or minus 18 degrees.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
I admit I'm confused.
My dilemma is understanding how to *measure* to that spec.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 05:20PM


> You REALLY need to study your high-school math.
 
This off-topic confusion is all my fault.
 
I should never have brought toe into this discussion because toe is easily
done at home when you have specs that are in linear dimensions such as
inches but not so easily understood when you have toe specs in angles.
http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
Clearly I'm confused how to do the conversion.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 05:25PM

AMuzi actually said:
 
> Sort of mixed units.
 
But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm
almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement.
 
The manufacturer specifies the "total toe" as 0 degrees 14 minutes plus or
minus 10 minutes:
http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif
 
The manufacturer specifies a "total toe" required accuracy of plus or minus
2 minutes in a measuring range of plus or minus two degrees with a total
measuring range of plus or minus 18 degrees.
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
So this confusion is all my fault.
 
Clearly I'm confused because the way I think of toe is linear, but the
manufacturer specifies toe in angles, so I should not have brought up toe
in the first place.
 
Camber is simpler because the manufacturer specifies angles and the
measurement is in angles.
 
So we should stick with camber for this thread (because it's a simpler
problem).
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 09 12:26PM -0500

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:34 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
>centerline of the bimmer or wheel to wheel but since they specify a
>single-wheel toe, can I safely presume that the spec is to the *centerline*
>of the vehicle?
No you can not. Total toe iis the difference between the track at the
front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire. devided by 2.
The specification on the Bimmer and most cars today is given as the
toe PER SIDE, which theoretically is 1/2 of the total toe.. The toe
per wheel is measured to the parallel longitudinal axis of the vehicle
and is given per wheel to enable centering of the steering linkage so
the car goes straight when the wheel is centered.
 
The reason the measurements are given as an angle is because that is
essentially what you are setting. You are setting the angular
relationship between the wheel and the longitudinal axis of the car. A
linear measurement is not an accurate specification because differen
diameter wheels can be used on vehicles, and the displacement of the
neasurement from the rolling axis of the tire affects the linear
measurement, but not the angular measurement.
If you are not using professional equipment and you are depending on
calculated linear measurements the ONLY way to aproach the accuracy
BMW is specifying is by extending the measurement to at least 3 feet,
prefferably 6 to 10, and calculatinf the offset at that point.
 
But I'm wasting my breath - You've been told this several times and it
has not gortten through to you. Stop being a cheap-assed wannabee,
find a good mechanic - and TRUST HIM. Pay him what the job is worth.
If you can't afford to proain a bimmer, drive a bloody Chevy!!
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 09 12:29PM -0500

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 15:14:35 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
 
>Anyone can catalyze a reaction, but the catalyst remains unchanged.
 
>That is, if I do that, I learn absolutely nothing.
 
>I remain as uneducated as before.
You can educate youself on what an alignment consists of, and
understand what is involved, without doing it yourself. I think your
problem is you have a fear of mechanics - an ingrained mistrust -
combined with a very tight grip on your money (although how that goes
along with driving a wiener wagon, I cannot for the life of me figure
out)
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>: Dec 09 12:34PM -0500

In article <o2epef$4s4$1@news.mixmin.net>, John Harmon
 
> But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm
> almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement.
 
not if you want to do it correctly, you won't.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 05:35PM


> And the length of the studs/bolts gets critical - not to mention it
> works best with 4 or 6 studs - not so good on odd numbers like the
> common 5, or the less common 3 stud wheels.
 
My plan (later) is to create some sort of test jig that bolts to the wheel.
 
Sort of like this: http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 09 12:36PM -0500

On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 16:58:31 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
 
>> I've done wheel alignment in my garage
 
>What we don't want is advice from people who would never contemplate doing
>a camber measurement at home.
 
I've done it at home and on the side of the road. I've also done it
hundreds of times with professional equipment.
>We want advice from people who have actually checked camber at home:
>http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
 
My advice is YOU will not measure it accurately enough, and camber
isn't the only angle you need to check, and the other angles are more
difficult to measure - with caster being virtually impossible for you
to measure without proper equipment.
>since he not only knows not how to do it, but more importantly, he has
>never done it, so his advice not to do it doesn't help anyone.
 
>He simply wasted everyone's time with his fear-filled response.
 
And a fairly accurate response.
 
>Likewise, you waste everyone's time with your I-won't-tell-you response.
>If you're not going to tell anyone anything, then why bother responding?
 
And I've told you
>minute.
 
>If we can't achieve one minute of accuracy out of a mobile device, what
>*is* the accuracy thqt we *can* achieve out of a mobile device?
It depends a whole lot on the mobile device, on the application you
are using, and how you apply it.
 
"design it in autocad, lay it out with a string, mark it with a
crayon, and cut it with an axe"
 
That about describes the accuracy of your approach. Is it POSSIBLE to
be accurate in that scenario?? Of course, if you try often enough -
but your repeatability is not going to be very good.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 05:48PM


> If you are going to measure the toe with a string, you may as well
> forget about it. You can NOT get enough accuracy or repeatability to
> determine if the toe is correct or not.
 
This is good advice that a string won't be accurate nor repeatable enough
for toe measurements.
 
> that granular in your measurement you NEED to extend your measurements
> 5 or 10 feet and measure with a goor steel tape measure, or extend the
> displaced centerline accurately and measure with a steel rule.
 
This home-alignment howto shows camber in degrees and toe in both degrees
and in inches:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignment.html
 
The really good news is that the author suggests 0 degrees of camber,
which, it seems to me on initial thought, should be the easiest of all
angles to measure.
 
> the simple tape measure will give you the total toe - which will be
> double the specified toe per wheel, and will not tell you if you are
> off-center.
 
That same article shows how to get the individual wheel toe:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignpics/align3.jpg
 
Since this thread is all about practical advice, the great news is that the
article offered the following pragmatic recommendation of:
a. Zero degrees of camber for a street car
b. Zero toe
(or a smidge of toe of about 1/16" on each side for a total toe of 1/32")
 
Both those zeroes should be relatively easy to measure with shop tools, are
they not?
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 05:58PM

> of one of those kraut-wagons that I think you are definitely being
> penny wise and pound foolish trying to save $100 on the maintenance of
> a late model Bimmer. Don't be such a cheap-ass. - or drive a Chevy.
 
I have multiple vehicles.
 
My japanese vehicle never breaks.
My bimmer always breaks.
 
I work on both of them just the same.
 
> You want to know if anything is worn or bent - and measuring CASTER is
> required as well to know.
 
My vehicle has never been in an accident but that's not really the point
because nobody will disagree with you that caster is part of an alignment
equation, and, that caster comes before camber which comes before toe.
 
This article shows that if you can measure camber, you can measure caster:
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignment.html
 
Since my bimmer has no direct way to adjust caster, I'm skipping the
non-adjustable caster (for now) to concentrate on camber.
 
> You really don't have your head around the
> concepts well enough to understand WHY an alignment check should be
> done properly.
 
I think that's an unfair statement that I don't understand why an alignment
measurement needs to be correct but certainly I am confused about how to
convert a toe specification that is given in degrees to a toe measurement
which will be made in inches.
 
What matters to an alignment check is simply that the manufacturer's stated
accuracy is achieved.
 
That accuracy, for my bimmer, is stated here:
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
> wrong just as well by simply driving the car. If you are not "in tune
> with the car" the Bimmer is wasted on you --- (as it is on the vast
> majority of Bimmer owners)
 
The bimmer insult isn't really needed here since this is a technical
question, but it's fair to say that what you're saying is that "alignment
can be felt" but I would clarify that by adding "sometimes".
 
I'm not sure if you can feel the difference, for example, between 2 degrees
of negative camber in the rear wheels and 1 degree.
 
Over time, your tires will tell you; but waiting the 5K miles for the tires
to inform you of that difference is not a quick check by any means. :)
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>: Dec 09 01:00PM -0500

In article <o2ercj$8g5$1@news.mixmin.net>, John Harmon
 
> My japanese vehicle never breaks.
 
buy another
 
> My bimmer always breaks.
 
sell it or give it away
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 06:14PM


> The accuracy of the level application on my one phone is out bt over
> 7 degrees. That is a simple "level" app..
 
This is the first indication of what's possible out of a mobile device in
this thread, so I thank you for figuring out that your level app has an
accuracy of plus or minus 7 degrees (if I understood you correctly).
 
How did you find that out though?
 
> determine if the rim is true to the spindle by checking the level with
> the bar upright with the wheel turned 180 degrees to make sure the
> reading is the same with the wheel turned.
 
I agree that the jig attached to the wheel has to be exactly on target
(within the stated accuracies, all of which add up).
 
Here's an example of a camber jig for home use:
http://i.cubeupload.com/XocXQ9.jpg
 
Here's an even better camber jig setup for home use:
http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png
 
> WITH CARE you can check your camber to a reasonably high level of
> accuracy. To get the camber "normalized" you need to roll the car
> back and forth a few feet so the car "settles" on it's suspension.
 
This is good practical advice that you need to both roll the car back and
forth to let it settle on the suspension, and you need to add slip plates
under the wheels so that they slip nicely when adjusted.
 
> professional setup uses a "slip plate" that allows the wheels to slide
> in and out with little resistance. Normal procedure is to bounce the
> car on the slip plates to "normalize" the suspension.
 
This is also good advice to bounce the car and to use slip plates for
measuring and adjusting toe so that the wheels move freely.
http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/suspension/alignpics/align3.jpg
 
> I've done it long pre-smart-phone using a simple bubble level to
> verify the alignment was "close enough" afterr an accident in central
> Africa severely damaged the front of my Peugeot.
 
The really good news is that, like in your case, a simple bubble level
might suffice simply because a decent rear camber spec is zero degrees
anyway, which is the easiest angle to measure.
http://i.cubeupload.com/J0UuYd.png
 
In summary, what I've learned in the past day are a few things:
 
1. A practical value for rear camber is 0 degrees to a smidge negative
2. A practical value for toe-in is 0 inches to a smidge positive (inward)
 
Both those are so close to zero that I can check that they are zero, and
then I can tweak them to a "smidge" inward.
 
But that is a different problem from checking them, which seems to be
easily doable using a few common tools based on my googling today:
http://www.tomhoppe.com/index.php/2009/02/cheap-digital-camber-gauge/
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 06:17PM

nospam actually said:
 
>> But angles are the units that the manufacturer provides for toe while I'm
>> almost certainly going to measure toe with a distance measurement.
 
> not if you want to do it correctly, you won't.
 
This article states that you can get as accurate at home as you need to:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/wheels-tires/modp-1010-diy-wheel-alignment/
 
Here's how they measured toe-in, for example:
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/30286048+w+h+q80+re0+cr1/modp_1010_06_o%2bdiy_wheel_alignment%2bstring_box.jpg
 
Notice they measured toe in linear measurements.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 06:55PM


> Total toe iis the difference between the track at the
> front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire.
 
Ah! My bad. Thank you for that correction.
 
Until you admonished me, I had previously thought total toe was just the
toe of both wheels to the centerline added up.
 
I stand corrected.
 
So "total toe" is the difference between the tracking of the front of the
tire and the rear of the tire (measured to centerline of the vehicle).
 
> The specification on the Bimmer and most cars today is given as the
> toe PER SIDE, which theoretically is 1/2 of the total toe..
 
Yes.
 
> per wheel is measured to the parallel longitudinal axis of the vehicle
> and is given per wheel to enable centering of the steering linkage so
> the car goes straight when the wheel is centered.
 
Thank you for this pragmatic advice that the toe per wheel is given so that
we can keep the steering wheel centered while doing the job.
 
> The reason the measurements are given as an angle is because that is
> essentially what you are setting.
 
Thank you because, when I read the next sentence, for the first time, I
understood why toe is specified as an angle!
 
> You are setting the angular
> relationship between the wheel and the longitudinal axis of the car.
 
Ah. Yes. This is true that the *angle* is the angle of the wheel to the
centerline of the vehicle.
 
It's a tiny angle which is very close to zero; but it's an angle for sure!
 
Is this diagram I just made modified correct for that angle?
http://i.cubeupload.com/rtvi9L.gif
 
> diameter wheels can be used on vehicles, and the displacement of the
> neasurement from the rolling axis of the tire affects the linear
> measurement, but not the angular measurement.
 
Ah. I see what you're talking about.
Thanks for that pragmatic advice!
 
Is this diagram that I just made showing what you just said?
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif
 
> calculated linear measurements the ONLY way to aproach the accuracy
> BMW is specifying is by extending the measurement to at least 3 feet,
> prefferably 6 to 10, and calculatinf the offset at that point.
 
I don't understand that statement.
I was trying to draw what you said but I don't know which way to extend.
 
In which direction do I extend the line?
In front of the car?
Or to the side?
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 07:02PM


> Total toe iis the difference between the track at the
> front of the tire and the track at the rear of the tire. devided by 2.
 
Thank you for your pragmatic advice.
 
Is this diagram I just made correct for total toe?
http://i.cubeupload.com/kYxrgm.gif
kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey): Dec 09 02:04PM -0500


>My japanese vehicle never breaks.
>My bimmer always breaks.
 
>I work on both of them just the same.
 
The japanese vehicle you can drive and drive without doing any maintenance and
it won't break until all of a sudden everything fails. The BMW requires a lot
of very specific maintenance, and you need to keep on top of that maintenance,
and if you do not do it, it will break. But, you can drive it for a long, long
time before everything fails.
 
Maintenance is better than repairs any day, though.
--scott
 
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 07:09PM

> combined with a very tight grip on your money (although how that goes
> along with driving a wiener wagon, I cannot for the life of me figure
> out)
 
I appreciate your advice.
Here are the diagrams I made for toe based on your pragmatic advice.
 
1. This shows why toe is specified as an angle to the centerline:
http://i.cubeupload.com/rtvi9L.gif
 
2. This shows why an *angle* is better than a distance specification:
http://i.cubeupload.com/BzNqBY.gif
 
3. This shows that Total Toe is a distance while toe is an angle:
http://i.cubeupload.com/kYxrgm.gif
 
If that is correct, the only problem I have understanding in the spec is
why the total toe is specified in angles when it should be the difference
in the distance between the front and rear tracks to the centerline:
http://i.cubeupload.com/RubZhV.gif
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 07:11PM

nospam actually said:
 
 
> buy another
 
>> My bimmer always breaks.
 
> sell it or give it away
 
My japanese vehicle is sort of like Android; it just works.
The bimmer is more like my iPad; it constantly can't do basic stuff.
 
:)
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 07:16PM

Ed Pawlowski actually said:
 
> My reply is strictly based on the fact that you come across as an
> arrogant prick telling poeple who may reply..
 
I understand your reply (which was that I sounded arrogant to you when I
asked people who wouldn't be adding any value not to respond).
 
And you must understand mine, which is that I was trying to prevent a huge
waste of time becuase *most* people wouldn't dare contemplate checking
their camber (or toe) at home.
 
The problems with doing alignment at home stem first from *understanding*
the specs, which it is clear, I'm still grasping.
 
After the specs are understood, then the next problem is measuring the
camber and toe.
 
And the third problem is adjusting them.
 
This thread is only about measuring them, but I agree, my confusion on toe
angles slowed things down.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 07:40PM

Scott Dorsey actually said:
 
> and if you do not do it, it will break. But, you can drive it for a long, long
> time before everything fails.
 
> Maintenance is better than repairs any day, though.
 
To put the difference more honestly, I've had both vehicles for more than
15 years each so I know their personalities well.
 
The Toyota almost never breaks down, but when it does, the fix is generally
simple and easy to do where parts are easy to find and relatively
inexpensive. Yet, it doesn't handle as well (although it's a different type
of vehicle altogehter).
 
But here are the "problems" I've had with the Toyta:
1. The transmission shift lever uses idiotic plastic bushings (replaced 2x)
2. The sway bar used buna rubber bushings (replaced with poly bushings)
3. The electrical antenna keeps breaking (I finally gave up on it)
4. The torsion clutch pedal spring is stupid (replaced with linear spring)
5. The digital clock digits go out (gave up after fixing it twice)
6. The oil filter housing gasket leaks (fixed by replacing it)
8. The door opening mechanism failed (replaced with OEM)
9. The front shocks were toast within five years (replaced w Bilsteins)
10. The rear brakelight stopped working (sanded a few times & is now fixed)
Plus assorted standard maintenance (belts, clutch, fluids, brakes, etc.).
 
The bimmer constantly breaks down, but its handling is nice. However, it's
important to know that the bimmer I have is the E39 which has about 20
items made like crap, where *everything* else is rock solid.
 
So the twenty items made like crap on the E39 are, offhand:
1. The cooling system (mostly the idiotic plastic expansion tank)
2. The DISA valve (mostly an idiotic plastic flap pin)
3. The window regulators (two idiotic plastic rollers)
4. The Bosch ABS control module (an idiotic internal wire badly mounted)
5. The seats twist (idiotic sleeves on the many motor control cables)
6. Instrument cluster pixels die (idiotic pink stickytape connectors)
7. The headlight adjustment (idiotic plastic adjustment pins break)
8. AC control (idiotic FSU/FSR blows its mosfets time and time again)
9. CCV (aka PCV) (idiotic design creates mayonaise in cold weather locales)
10. Doors leak water (idiotic lack of glue in the vapor barrier adhesive)
11. Trunk wiring (utterly idiotic design has no concept of opening flex!)
12. Temperature (idiotic placement of the ambient temperature sensor)
13. Windshiled washer system (the entire design is idiotic)
14. Jack pads (idiotic lack of a center pin was replaced under TSB)
15. AC odors (idiotic lack of a way to vent collected water)
16. The cupholders (idiotic design can't be fixed - just throw it away)
17. Wood trim (idiodic material was never tested for lifespan)
18. Windshield molding (idiotic use of recycled rubber was a disaster)
19. Power steering leaks (idiotic design of the I6 hoses & V8 brackets)
20. The front shocks were toast within its first year (warranty fix)
Plus assorted standard maintenance (belts, clutch, fluids, brakes, etc.).
 
My summary, after owning both from new for over fifteen years each is that
the BMW is a pain in the ass to repair whenever something does go wrong,
and things go wrong a lot because BMW doesn't know how to design a complete
car but the handling is phenominal and the engine is bulletproof.
 
Meanwhile, the Toyota is a dream child to repair when something does go
wrong (which is almost never) simply because Toyota knows something BMW
doesn't know, which is how to design a complete vehicle.
 
But all this is OT.
"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 09 11:41AM -0800

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 10:01:12 AM UTC-5, amdx wrote:
re now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot.
 
> Hey Peter, why all the hate?
 
Hatred? That is an emotion that takes effort and requires knowledge of the actual target beyond the initial idiocy.
 
Harmon/Alger is a troll whose sole purpose in life is to spin the wheels of the otherwise well-intentioned by inveigling them into meaningless discussions over processes that have no relevance in reality. Usually continued so long that the "horse" is not only dead, but skinned, flayed and flensed.
 
He cannot read for content. As the processes over which he appears to be confused are rather obvious. Which means either one of two things:
 
a) he is invincibly ignorant.
b) he enjoys spinning peoples' wheels.
 
Whether the former or the latter, he has no place in a reasonable discussion as he cannot be reasonably, nor engage in meaningful discussion.
 
Again, the sharpest tool he should be allowed is a rubber spoon as he is clearly a danger to himself or others who may be victims of his ineptitude.
 
I would have a great deal more respect for him were he to sign his real name. But that he changes it as often as he (likely) changes his socks is the certain indication of his status as a troll.
 
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>: Dec 09 02:46PM -0500

In article <o2evkp$hl2$1@news.mixmin.net>, John Harmon
 
> > sell it or give it away
 
> My japanese vehicle is sort of like Android; it just works.
> The bimmer is more like my iPad; it constantly can't do basic stuff.
 
only because you're too stupid to figure out how, particularly after
people repeatedly explain to you exactly how.
Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>: Dec 09 03:34PM -0500

billberrie1204@gmail.com: Dec 09 10:30AM -0800

Hello All, I'm new to this group.
The above radio has a problem with AM reception. Signal strength is variable from unusable to normal listening volumn. I suspect the sanyo LA1851N am fm radio ic. I cannot find one in the surface mount package. I also could use a schematic. Can anyone help me with this?
 
Thank You,
 
Bill
You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to sci.electronics.repair+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 12 updates in 1 topic

clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 08 07:32PM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:13:33 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
 
>Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree
>respectively.
 
>But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
That depends whether it is at 12.5 inches, 12.5 feet, or 12.5
miles.......
You REALLY need to study your high-school math.
Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net>: Dec 08 07:33PM -0500

On 12/8/2016 12:00 PM, John Harmon wrote:
 
> their camber at home to NOT respond (they're not going to be able to tell
> us anything we don't already know - all they're going to do is clutter up
> this thread to make it harder to be useful to others).
 
 
New to USENET?
I've done wheel alignment in my garage but given your arrogant attitude
I prefer not potentially clutter things here.
 
FYI, you won't be the first to call me an asshole today so don't be so
proud when you do so.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 12:54AM

amdx actually said:
 
>> But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
> That depends on the length.
 
Following that statement to the logical next step, here is a
representiative track for my sedan from this thread:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1312326-1998-BMW-528i-Complete-FRONT-Suspension-Overhaul
 
That photo says that the track is:
- Front Track Width = 1512 mm
- Rear Track Width = 1526 mm
 
So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 08 07:36PM -0600

On 12/8/2016 6:54 PM, John Harmon wrote:
> - Front Track Width = 1512 mm
> - Rear Track Width = 1526 mm
 
> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
You have a misunderstanding, to figure millimeter or inches,
you need to have two lines that are connected like a below,
 
l****/
l /
l /
l /
l/
The angle between l and /, we will call 1/60 of a degree,
the **** is the millimeters or inches, BUT, the quantity of millimeters
or inches depends on the length of l, as you can see the longer l the
larger **** will be. But the angle stays the same.
 
 
Use the link below
may help you see it.
 
 
 
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp
I put in a 1 degree angle for (angle a) and 16" for
(side B) Then hit calculate to find (side a).
This says you need 0.279" of tilt top to bottom
on a 16" wheel.
Note: this triangle is rotated 90* to your wheel.
So take that into account when thinking about the calculation.
Bottom line, for a 1 degree angle you need a tilt of 0.279" over 16".
That's measurable, but you need a post 90* off the floor to measure from.
Second note: Side (a) the tilt at the top (mm or inches), Side (b) is
perpendicular to the floor, Side (c) would be the tilt of the wheel.
Angle (a) is the degrees of the angle you set.
 
Mikek
jurb6006@gmail.com: Dec 08 08:27PM -0800

>"New to USENET?
I've done wheel alignment in my garage but given your arrogant attitude
I prefer not potentially clutter things here.
 
FYI, you won't be the first to call me an asshole today so don't be so
proud when you do so. "
 
I doubt the OP actually even knows what camber is. He is probably conflating it with caster which is the amount the lower parts of the tires are closer together. That angle along with the camber which could also be called steering inclination axis is what makes the steering wheel return to the center.
 
Unfortunately most of what I know (and I know my limitations) applies to rear wheel drive cars which usually had a toe in, but now with front wheel drive there is usually a toe out.
 
I don't know if I can say this for true on these newer cars, some of which have quite complicated suspension, but in the old days if you knew how to align a car you could do it with a piece of string. Things have changed and now withe front wheel drive and independent rear wheel suspension having it's own caster and camber, toe in or whatever, has complicated the situation a bit.
 
But still if you got the money for tires all you have to do is drive the car a while and see the wear on the tires.
 
Guy was telling me a long time ago that on some Mazeratis there were like four shocks per wheel. I stuck with electronics LOL. In fact last year we did a head job (due to a jumped timing chain) on a Chevy Ecotec engine. I want NOTHING to do with them anymore.
 
Anyway, camber matter most on turns. the rest of it not so much. Measuring it entails getting the geometry of the hub/tire/whatever at a straight on position and then comparing that to it at a turning position. Camber goes along with the geometry of the whole steering assembly to establish toe out on turns, because one wheel is turning a larger radius than the other. You don't generally set that except maybe on big semi trucks. It is simply figured out when they design it. T%The camber does affect it, but really you don't have to set that unless you change the lower A frame. Even changing the whole strut tower is not likely to affect it much, enough to worry about anyway.
 
And people want to worry about shit like this when the brake lines are rusting out and the software that runs the engine is about to crash. Gimme a 1967 Chevy, really. Now on those you DID set the camber. It is all in the shop manual. (not a Chilton's)
tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net>: Dec 09 02:55AM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:12:12 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:
 
> translate 2 angular minutes into inch
> measurements.
 
Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones.
An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net>: Dec 09 03:07AM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:37:59 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:
 
> so a problem is how do I
> convert the 2 minutes of accuracy to a plus or minus inch figure?
 
You need a cataly$t, and a good front end man. Bring your vehicle to the
front end man, lubricate him with your cataly$t ($100 should do nicely),
and he'll perform the conversion for you, even adjusting things to the
result you would desire (key word or phrase: "wheel alignment").
 
HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 09 05:47AM -0800

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:54:19 PM UTC-5, John Harmon wrote:
 
> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
You are now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot.
 
READ THE $%^&*()!@# TEXT in the procedure. Millimeters are not involved. They are mentioned for informational purposes so that *you* might understand why things do not line up front-to-rear. Degrees are involved. Hence the use of a level and plumb-bob. The HORIZONTAL DIMENSION is measured and marked. This is at the axle. Then The VERTICAL AXIS is determined. If it is at the correct angle from true vertical (hence the need for a level) when the vehicle is on the ground and correctly loaded you now have the correct camber. WHICH YOU CAN COMPARE TO THE PREVIOUSLY DETERMINED MARK. Which then GIVES YOU A DIMENSION FOR FUTURE REFERENCE.
 
Back in the day, and at very good shops today, the mechanic will ask the owner whether the car is normally driven solo or with passengers. If solo, he will put (usually) a 40-60 pound weight in the driver's seat to simulate "proper loading".
 
That you are a BMW owner explains a lot as well.
 
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2390373/BMW-drivers-really-aggressive-drivers-prone-road-rage-wheel.html
 
That you cannot read for content is typical of the species.
 
The sharpest tool you should be allowed is a rubber spoon.
 
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 09 09:01AM -0600

> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:54:19 PM UTC-5, John Harmon wrote:
 
>> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
> You are now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot.
 
Hey Peter, why all the hate?
How is the rest of your life, do you treat everyone this way?
I think I have posted a pretty good explanation to try and give him the
understanding he is missing.
I did it without one vile word.
In fact, I enjoyed it. How joy did you have in your response?
None, you were mad. Huh! How silly. If you are not happy making
a response, why do it.
Mikek
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 03:14PM

tlvp actually said:
 
> Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones.
> An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp
 
I agree that I'm confused (which is why I am hesitating to respond because
I don't wish to muddy the technical issue further for everyone).
 
The problem with doing camber at home is different from the problem of
doing toe at home.
 
For my bimmer, the camber is specified in degrees, and the measurement
tools we're exploring measure in degrees.
 
We just have to solve the conceptually simple problem of
a. Accuracy to 1 minute of angular measurement
b. Creating a wheel plate that meets that accuracy
c. Measuring to that accuracy with a mobile device
 
The problem, for my bimmer, is that the manufacturer specifies the toe in
degrees, yet we measure in inches. The conversion confuses me to no end
(which is obvious to all).
 
However, that specific translation problem may be solved if I trust this
layman's chart, for a similar vehicle:
http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html
 
Which puts the toe-in in inch measurements of:
Front toe (left): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
Front toe (right): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
Front toe (total): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/16"
 
As with all specs written by laypeople, I can't tell if that toe is to the
centerline of the bimmer or wheel to wheel but since they specify a
single-wheel toe, can I safely presume that the spec is to the *centerline*
of the vehicle?
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 03:14PM

tlvp actually said:
 
> front end man, lubricate him with your cataly$t ($100 should do nicely),
> and he'll perform the conversion for you, even adjusting things to the
> result you would desire (key word or phrase: "wheel alignment").
 
Anyone can catalyze a reaction, but the catalyst remains unchanged.
 
That is, if I do that, I learn absolutely nothing.
 
I remain as uneducated as before.
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 09 09:16AM -0600

On 12/8/2016 7:36 PM, amdx wrote:
>> - Front Track Width = 1512 mm
>> - Rear Track Width = 1526 mm
 
>> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
Just Repeating so you don't miss my post.
I would like to know if my explanation made any sense to you.
Be sure to use the trig calculator to help you understand.
Maybe even draw out a few right triangles get the idea
 
 
You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to sci.electronics.repair+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 1 topic

John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 05:00PM

Practical advice (helpful hints & suggestions) requested from those of you
who have successfully checked camber at home (to sufficient accuracy).
 
If you have never checked your automotive alignment camber at home, you
probably won't be able to add much practical value to this thread; however
if you have actually measured your wheel camber with sufficient accuracy at
home, you almost certainly can add valuable pragmatic hints to this thread
(such that we'll all learn from your experience).
 
I am researching whether automotive alignment camber quick checks are yet
possible to a reasonable degree of accuracy using a free app on a common
mobile device (either iOS or Android, both of which I own).
 
A search does find a variety of methods to check camber at home:
https://www.google.com/search?q=check+camber+at+home
where some of those articles used mobile phone apps
(e.g., XXXXXX)
 
Here I am just asking for advice from those of you who have successfully
checked your camber at home using your smartphone to measure the angles to
sufficient accuracy.
 
To find apps which measure angles to sufficient accuracy, I have already
run a variety of Google searches of the general form:
1. review best ios free app angle automotive alignment camber accurate
2. review best android free app angle automotive alignment camber accurate
 
Some hits from the iOS searches are as follows:
A. Wheel Align for ALiSENSOR Wheel By Gloi AB
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wheel-align-for-alisensor/id513879710
B. iHandy Level Free By iHandy Inc.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ihandy-level-free/id299852753
C. Clinometer + bubble level + slope finder (3 in 1) By Peter Breitling
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/clinometer-+-bubble-level/id286215117
 
Some hits from the Android searches are as follows:
A. Clinometer + bubble level By plaincode
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.plaincode.clinometer
B. iHandy Level Free By iHandy Ltd.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.ihandysoft.carpenter.level
C. Angle Meter PRO By nakhon phagdeechat
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=iyok.com.anglemeterpro
 
The amount of useless responses to this thread can be minimized simply by
asking those who don't care to or who haven't ever successfully checked
their camber at home to NOT respond (they're not going to be able to tell
us anything we don't already know - all they're going to do is clutter up
this thread to make it harder to be useful to others).
 
However, if you have ever attempted to check your camber at home using a
smart phone angle measuring tool, your insight, hints, and advice would be
greatly appreciated (and would be generally useful to many people).
"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 08 09:10AM -0800

Horatio Alger and/or one of his many clones is trolling again. Just check the source.
 
As to checking Camber "at home". When it comes to vehicular safety, when it comes to the lives of my wife, kids and grandkids, not to mention me, my advice is DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME - as no matter how smart the phone, the operator will be an idiot.
 
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 05:23PM

Ooooops.
> A search does find a variety of methods to check camber at home:
> https://www.google.com/search?q=check+camber+at+home
> where some of those articles used mobile phone apps
 
I had forgotten to link to a descriptive photo of the desired task:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6CPUl7.jpg
 
I'm sure there are gotchas (e.g., is the garage floor really flat?), but it
seems doable to measure camber at home if we can answer the main obvious
questions which are (I think):
 
Q: What accuracy is *needed* to measure camber at home?
Q: What accuracy can be *attained* with a typical mobile device?
Q: Is the repeatability sufficient in a typical home measurement setup?
Q: How do we compensate for typical errors (e.g., ride height, flat floor)?
 
What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel
camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup?
"Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>: Dec 08 01:32PM -0500

John Harmon wrote:
> seems doable to measure camber at home if we can answer the main obvious
> questions which are (I think):
 
> Q: What accuracy is *needed* to measure camber at home?
 
.01 degree or better.
 
> Q: What accuracy can be *attained* with a typical mobile device?
 
?????????? don't use one myself
 
> Q: Is the repeatability sufficient in a typical home measurement setup?
> Q: How do we compensate for typical errors (e.g., ride height, flat floor)?
 
Same way you do with the machines, Measure the floor and level the
machine prior to use. Using an app you could check the floor span where
you plan to do the work and zero it out.
 
 
> What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel
> camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup?
 
How to attach the device to the wheel/hub.
 
--
Steve W.
"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 08 11:21AM -0800

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 1:32:37 PM UTC-5, Steve W. wrote:
 
> How to attach the device to the wheel/hub.
 
Not possible centered on the axle and neutral in two axis without additional (and expensive) tooling. Hence the "Idiot Operator" requirement.
 
Once again, Harmon/Alger is trolling for a Darwin Award.
 
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 08 11:50AM -0800

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 1:32:37 PM UTC-5, Steve W. wrote:
 
> How to attach the device to the wheel/hub.
 
Not possible centered on the axle and neutral in two axis without additional (and expensive) tooling. Hence the "Idiot Operator" requirement.
 
Once again, Harmon/Alger is trolling for a Darwin Award.
 
NOTE: Azimuth accuracy in smart-phone devices (departure from the vertical) is typically less than 10 degrees. OK for orienting the picture on the phone, not so much for measuring tire camber. Pushing right up against the "Idiot Operator" requirement for trusting such a device for such a purpose.
 
It would be quite useful were the OP to actually make adjustments based on such a device - if we could only be sure when he inevitably wraps himself around a tree thereafter that he does so without any collateral damage. Yes, I am being snarky - but if ever there was a situation for such - this is one.
 
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 08:12PM


> 0.01deg ?? I don't think so...
 
We really must know to what accuracy we need the measurements to be becuase
every measurement tool ever made has this as its basic issue.
 
Do you think it's less, or more accurate that we need for camber
measurement?
 
As just one reference, page 8 of this document says that camber (and toe)
measurements must be accurate to "2 angular minutes".
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/snitch740i/original/BMW_Wheel_Alignment_System%5B1%5D.pdf
 
The question then becomes how to translate 2 angular minutes into inch
measurements.
 
On page 10 of that document it says the camber tolerance of another vehicle
model is ? 10' (plus or minus 10 minutes).
 
So what is 10 minutes in inches?
 
> If your car doesn't pull to one side and the tire is not wearing un-evenly,
> the camber is fine.
 
I realize there are many ways to measure things, and I understand that
you're using the tire wear and handling to measure camber, but I would like
to try to get a bit finer in granularity (especially since lots of other
things can cause both those issues).
 
> I have used an ordinary carpenters bubble level to check it.
 
I have plenty of carpenters bubble levels, one with digital output, so
that's also another option.
 
> If it is within 1/4 bubble it should be OK.
I understand what you're saying which is that the negative camber on my
rear tires can be anywhere between 0 and minus 2 degrees.
 
But I would like to get a bit more accurate than 1/4 bubble! :)
 
One of my cars specifies the following static camber range, for example:
Front (non-adjustable) camber = -0.7? minimum, 0.3? maximum
Rear (adjustable) camber = -2.2 ?mimimum, -2.0? maximum
( http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html )
 
> Most roads have crown so the camber is not as critical as you might think.
 
Some cars compensate for that by specificying cross camber specs, but mine
are symmetric.
 
The static negative camber is "supposed" to increase lateral grip. At the
same time, it certainly increases inner tire edge wear and decreases
straight-line braking traction. On uneven road surfaces, you can get camber
thrust (where the tire moves toward the camber).
 
> Problems with this method are:
> 1 ground where the car is parked needs to be both flat and level
 
Yup. That's a measurement and calibration issue for sure, but luckily, my
garage is extremely flat (I measured it once long ago).
 
> 2 ordinary tire bulges out on the bottom, need to set the level
> against the tire away from the buldge
 
That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best
to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to?
 
> Sometimes you can simply compare the reading on the front wheels
> to the back wheels.
 
This is a good hint, which is that we can just note what the *delta* is
between the front and back, and measure that delta, over time, with a handy
instrument.
 
> Also note many cars are designed to have the front wheels tilted
> inward at the top slightly for stability
 
Mine has negative camber on both front and rear, but front isn't adjustable
without adding camber plates.
 
> Unless you like this as a hobby, it probably doesn't pay to DIY.
 
I disagree but I understand your point.
On sheer economy, there are only 3 measurements I need for my sedan:
1. toe front
2. toe rear
3. camber rear
 
So all I need, to do a "pragmatic" alignment check, is to check those
three.
A. If they're off, then I can get the car aligned for $100 or more.
B. If they're on target, then I save $100 each time I measure them.
 
> Measuring toe in is much more fun.
 
On page 14 of the document above, it tells me that the static toe and
camber accuracy needs to be:
Toe measuring accuracy ?2' in measuring range ?2? in total range ?18?
Camber measuring accuracy ?1' in measuring range ?3? in total range ?10?
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches?
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 08:12PM

Steve W. actually said:
 
>> Q: What accuracy is *needed* to measure camber at home?
> .01 degree or better.
 
Thanks for that answer because this is a critical number we must know to do
any aligment reasonably well.
 
If everyone concurs that 0.01 (one hundredth) of a degree is the desired
accuracy, I can work with that.
 
One problem with alignment is that we have to be intelligent about
converting units because I found this document where, on page 11, it says:
[quote]
Quick-acting clamp + measuring sensor + computer = 1' at a
measuring range of ? 3?
(all BMW vehicles are within that ? 3? measuring range).
[/quote]
http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/snitch740i/original/BMW_Wheel_Alignment_System%5B1%5D.pdf
 
But I don't (yet) know how to convert 1 minute to inches.
Does anyone want to take a stab at how to run that conversion?

>> What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel
>> camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup?
 
> How to attach the device to the wheel/hub.
 
It seems to me that a "jig" of some sort needs to be made so that there is
a plane on the wheel that is (very precicely) parallel to the wheel to the
same 0.01 inches that we need for accuracy.
 
My initial idea is to take this concept to that 0.01 degree:
http://i.cubeupload.com/6CPUl7.jpg
 
Maybe bolt a flat steel plate to the wheel lugs (luckily, one of my cars
uses lug bolts so I can just use longer bolts but my other car uses lug
nuts which may make that flat plate bolting on more difficult).
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 08 02:12PM -0600

On 12/8/2016 11:23 AM, John Harmon wrote:
> Q: How do we compensate for typical errors (e.g., ride height, flat floor)?
 
> What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel
> camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup?
 
I assume that is the wheel and not a hub cap.
I'm guessing your looking for something between 0.5* and 2*, but I want
to know.
Someone said you need accuracy within .01 degrees, that's 1% of 1
degree. Good luck getting the 18 year old at the tire shop to do that.
I'd be happy with 10%, being that it is an adjustable characteristic
that can depend on how you want to drive the car, comfort or cornering.
I don't have a clue about phone app accuracy, but you can check it.
But hey, I've never done it, so don't read my response.
 
 
Mikek
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 08:17PM

amdx actually said:
 
> I assume that is the wheel and not a hub cap.
 
The car I will test this out first on is a bimmer with alloy wheels and lug
bolts so both those traits make the task of bolting on a jig easier than if
it were a steel wheel with lug nuts.
 
> I'm guessing your looking for something between 0.5* and 2*, but I want
> to know.
 
I later found this BMW spec which shows that I need accuracy in 1 or 2
minutes ( http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg ) but how do I convert that 1
and 2 minutes to inches?
 
> Someone said you need accuracy within .01 degrees, that's 1% of 1
> degree.
 
I think he meant inches though.
 
> Good luck getting the 18 year old at the tire shop to do that.
> I'd be happy with 10%, being that it is an adjustable characteristic
> that can depend on how you want to drive the car, comfort or cornering.
 
I understand that the alignment shop guy might not care all that much to
get as accurate as he can.
 
Right now, I think the accuracy needs to be plus or minus one minute for
toe and 2 minutes for camber.
 
I just don't know how to convert minutes to inches.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 08:37PM

Tekkie? actually said:
 
>> Measuring toe in is much more fun.
 
> +1 at least
 
According to this graphic, I need to repeatably measure toe to plus or
minus 2 minutes of accuracy and camber to plus or minus 1 minute of
accuracy:
http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
Static camber will be measured in degrees, so the plus or minus 1 minute of
accuracy is easy enough for me to understand.
 
But sttic toe is usually measured in inches, so a problem is how do I
convert the 2 minutes of accuracy to a plus or minus inch figure?
"Phil Kangas" <pkangas@upalphacomm.net>: Dec 08 03:56PM -0500

"John Harmon"
 
> I just don't know how to convert minutes to inches.
 
You can't. Minutes of angle are a function of a
triangle.
Inches are simply a scalar measurement of distance.
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 08 02:58PM -0600

On 12/8/2016 2:12 PM, John Harmon wrote:
>> against the tire away from the buldge
 
> That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best
> to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to?
 
 
 
A jig, if you can't use the actual wheel.
 
 
 
> Camber measuring accuracy ?1' in measuring range ?3? in total range ?10?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
> Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches?
 
No, But 30 min is equal to 0.5 degrees.
Mikek
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 09:13PM

Phil Kangas actually said:
 
 
> You can't. Minutes of angle are a function of a
> triangle.
> Inches are simply a scalar measurement of distance.
 
That's bad news because both the toe and camber are specified in degrees
but when I measure toe, it will be in inches.
 
At least when I measure the camber it will be in degrees so I won't be
switching units back and forth.
 
I know how to physically measure toe in inches (e.g., with a string); but I
don't (yet) know how to measure toe in degrees with a smart phone or
digital level.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 08 09:13PM

amdx actually said:
 
>> That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best
>> to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to?
> A jig, if you can't use the actual wheel.
 
I agree that, for our purposes, we should assume I jury rig a jig of some
sort so that there is a flat completely perpendicular plate bolted onto the
axle somehow (probably placed on the outside of the wheels using the lug
bolts or lug nuts).
 
>> Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches?
 
> No, But 30 min is equal to 0.5 degrees.
 
Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree
respectively.
 
But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 08 03:18PM -0600

On 12/8/2016 2:17 PM, John Harmon wrote:
 
> Right now, I think the accuracy needs to be plus or minus one minute for
> toe and 2 minutes for camber.
 
> I just don't know how to convert minutes to inches.
 
Something wrong, 30 minutes is equal to 0.5 degrees.
1 minute is 0.0167 degrees, I don't think that's what you are after.
 
You might play with a trig calculator.
> http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp
I put in a 1 degree angle for (angle a) and 16" for
(side B) Then hit calculate to find (side a).
This says you need 0.279" of tilt top to bottom
on a 16" wheel.
Note: this triangle is rotated 90* to your wheel.
So take that into account when thinking about the calculation.
Bottom line, for a 1 degree angle you need a tilt of 0.279" over 16".
That's measurable, but you need a post 90* off the floor.
 
Mikek
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 08 03:19PM -0600

On 12/8/2016 3:13 PM, John Harmon wrote:
 
> Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree
> respectively.
 
> But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
That depends on the length.
Mikek
"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 08 01:35PM -0800

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 3:12:14 PM UTC-5, John Harmon wrote:
> makolber@yahoo.com actually said:
 
> > 0.01deg ?? I don't think so...
 
You are well-and-truly an idiot!
 
The measuring device must be accurate to one one-hundredth of a degree, or two decimal places. The measurement itself will be far less sensitive than that, probably to a single degree, no more. But if I am staring (for instance) at 90 degrees and want to get to 89.75 degrees - hence the need for that level of accuracy.
 
Azimuth on the typical smart-phone (how accurate is it a measuring off the vertical) is typically somewhere between 8 (at best) and 15 degrees - and that only if it has a screen-orientation function. Many do not. And many more have only a 90-degree function and only in one direction.
 
Put another way, the phone is smart enough not to even attempt the process. The idiot owner who insists that it is possible - with the right app/software - deserves exactly what he gets.
 
Minutes are a circular unit-of-measure. Not a linear unit. So, "inches" will be measured at some point on a diameter as compared to another point along that diameter using a fixed radius. If 'vertical' minutes, one endpoint of that radius will be the center of the earth. If other than vertical, the determining endpoint will be something hopefully more nearby such as the axle or some specified point. And the diameter on which the distance is measured will be specified.
 
But, minutes do not convert to inches other than the chord defined by the starting point and the end point of the measured distance along the total arc.
 
False premises lead to false conclusions. I am calling you an idiot as you seem congenitally unable to understand the most basic geometry - previously most basic physics - yet insist on some sort of false precision to draw others into your idiocy as an actual problem. It isn't. Otherwise, you are a simple (very simple) troll. Yeah, I am responding - in the same way that our grandkids enjoy Wack-A-Mole at the penny arcade. You will probably never go away, but well-turned invective can be enjoyable, even if against a helpless target.
 
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org>: Dec 08 04:51PM -0600

On 12/8/2016 2:12 PM, John Harmon wrote:
> Camber measuring accuracy ?1' in measuring range ?3? in total range ?10?
> http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
> Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches?
 
Sort of mixed units.
 
For a circle with radius about 286.5 feet your circumference
will be about 21,600 inches so each minute of arc will be
one inch. I don't think that helps you here.
 
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 08 06:38PM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 17:00:41 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
 
>Practical advice (helpful hints & suggestions) requested from those of you
>who have successfully checked camber at home (to sufficient accuracy).
 
The accuracy of the level application on my one phone is out bt over
7 degrees. That is a simple "level" app.. The "rigid" level
application on my Blackberry PlayBook is very accurate - How you
reference it to the wheel will be the biggest variable that can
through your accuracy off. A trammel type setup made from a straight
bar of metal (or "straight" hardwood) with 2 screws protruding to
reach the edge of the rim, adjusted to be identical in protrusion,
will transfer the wheel angle accurately to the "level". You can
determine if the rim is true to the spindle by checking the level with
the bar upright with the wheel turned 180 degrees to make sure the
reading is the same with the wheel turned.
>if you have actually measured your wheel camber with sufficient accuracy at
>home, you almost certainly can add valuable pragmatic hints to this thread
>(such that we'll all learn from your experience).
 
WITH CARE you can check your camber to a reasonably high level of
accuracy. To get the camber "normalized" you need to roll the car
back and forth a few feet so the car "settles" on it's suspension. A
professional setup uses a "slip plate" that allows the wheels to slide
in and out with little resistance. Normal procedure is to bounce the
car on the slip plates to "normalize" the suspension.
>I am researching whether automotive alignment camber quick checks are yet
>possible to a reasonable degree of accuracy using a free app on a common
>mobile device (either iOS or Android, both of which I own).
 
I've done it long pre-smart-phone using a simple bubble level to
verify the alignment was "close enough" afterr an accident in central
Africa severely damaged the front of my Peugeot.
I've also done hundreds of alignments with "pro" equipment.
Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk>: Dec 09 12:02AM


> Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree
> respectively.
 
> But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
 
For small angles sin(A) = A (provided A is in radians) and d times
sin(A) (hence d times A) is the displacement at a distance d caused by
an angle a. To convert to radians, multiply degrees by .0174532925199
(pi/180).
 
For example, 2 minutes = 1/30 deg = .0005817764173 radians so 8 inches
from the hub that corresponds to a displacement of 8 * .0005817764173 =
.00465 inches or 4.65 thousandths of an inch (0.118 mm). I image that's
hard to measure.
 
The suggested accuracy of 0.01 degrees corresponds to a displacement of
3.5 micrometres at 8 inches. That's less the typical width of a human
head hair.
 
--
Ben.
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 08 07:03PM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:12:12 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
>http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/snitch740i/original/BMW_Wheel_Alignment_System%5B1%5D.pdf
 
>The question then becomes how to translate 2 angular minutes into inch
>measurements.
 
Well, 2 angular minutes is 1/30 degree, 03 0.03 degrees.
 
>On page 10 of that document it says the camber tolerance of another vehicle
>model is ? 10' (plus or minus 10 minutes).
 
>So what is 10 minutes in inches?
It is .01 degrees
 
>> Most roads have crown so the camber is not as critical as you might think.
 
>Some cars compensate for that by specificying cross camber specs, but mine
>are symmetric.
 
And the caster has an offset instead.
>> against the tire away from the buldge
 
>That's excellent advice. Since the tire bulges, I wonder if it's best
>to use the wheel lugs to mount a jig which is what we measure to?
 
Like I said in an earlier post - make a "jig" - a kind of trammel
device - that contacts the lip of the rim and transfers the
measurement out to a straightedge that spans the rim fiving a flat
surface parallel with the wheel centerline. Best to use this for toe
adjustments as well.
>Camber measuring accuracy ?1' in measuring range ?3? in total range ?10?
>http://i.cubeupload.com/cfaDWp.jpg
 
>Does anyone here know how to convert the 1 and 2 minutes to inches?
 
minutes are 1/60th of a degree.. Converting that to inches requires
offset and trig. The farther you can extend the "offset" the more
accurate you can be. I use a laser level on the trammel jig to extend
the line out about 10 feet from the spindle. Then do the calcs to find
out how much toe-in you want at 10 feet for the angle specified. If
the toe is specified in inches it is the difference between the front
and back of the tire circumference. Again, some calculations will
allow you to measure farther out for more accuracy.
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 08 07:15PM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:12:14 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
>http://www.bimmerboard.com/members/snitch740i/original/BMW_Wheel_Alignment_System%5B1%5D.pdf
 
 
 
>But I don't (yet) know how to convert 1 minute to inches.
>Does anyone want to take a stab at how to run that conversion?
Pythagorus' theorem -, or better yet, trigonometry. Or a triangle
calculator like http://www.cleavebooks.co.uk/scol/calrtri.htm Solve a
triangle. You know (from your measurements) the base of the triangle
(distance from spindle) and the height (difference between the
projected line and "straight"), or the base and 2 angles (the desired
angle and 90 degrees) to calculate the height. One way tells you what
angle you have, the other gives you the distance measurement you WANT.
 
 
>>> What other gotchas will we need to look at to successfully measure wheel
>>> camber using a mobile device in a typical garage setup?
 
Your biggest problem is getting your head around all the concepts.
>same 0.01 inches that we need for accuracy.
 
>My initial idea is to take this concept to that 0.01 degree:
>http://i.cubeupload.com/6CPUl7.jpg
 
On some vehicles it CAN be that simple -- On others it is definitely
a wee bit more complex, but you have the idea.
>Maybe bolt a flat steel plate to the wheel lugs (luckily, one of my cars
>uses lug bolts so I can just use longer bolts but my other car uses lug
>nuts which may make that flat plate bolting on more difficult).
 
And the length of the studs/bolts gets critical - not to mention it
works best with 4 or 6 studs - not so good on odd numbers like the
common 5, or the less common 3 stud wheels.
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 08 07:24PM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:17:43 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
 
>Right now, I think the accuracy needs to be plus or minus one minute for
>toe and 2 minutes for camber.
 
>I just don't know how to convert minutes to inches.
There is a saying about Bimmers.
If you have to ask how much - for anything - you can't afford to drive
a bimmer.. There are enough things that can go wrong in the front end
of one of those kraut-wagons that I think you are definitely being
penny wise and pound foolish trying to save $100 on the maintenance of
a late model Bimmer. Don't be such a cheap-ass. - or drive a Chevy.
 
You want to know if anything is worn or bent - and measuring CASTER is
required as well to know. You really don't have your head around the
concepts well enough to understand WHY an alignment check should be
done properly. Your "quick check" is just that - and if you are at all
in tune with your car as a driver you will know there is something
wrong just as well by simply driving the car. If you are not "in tune
with the car" the Bimmer is wasted on you --- (as it is on the vast
majority of Bimmer owners)
clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 08 07:30PM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:13:31 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
 
>I know how to physically measure toe in inches (e.g., with a string); but I
>don't (yet) know how to measure toe in degrees with a smart phone or
>digital level.
If you are going to measure the toe with a string, you may as well
forget about it. You can NOT get enough accuracy or repeatability to
determine if the toe is correct or not. Without pro equipment, to get
that granular in your measurement you NEED to extend your measurements
5 or 10 feet and measure with a goor steel tape measure, or extend the
displaced centerline accurately and measure with a steel rule. Using
the simple tape measure will give you the total toe - which will be
double the specified toe per wheel, and will not tell you if you are
off-center.
You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to sci.electronics.repair+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.