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"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 28 09:41AM -0800 > > Melrose Park, PA   > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.   > NT   I guess this is why Brits prefer warm beer.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Feb 28 10:13AM -0800 tabb...@gmail.com wrote:   ---------------------------     > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? > Such a thing is unheard of here.   ** IME, it is common practice here ( Australia ) to put fridges and freezers on a dedicated circuit since they often have high levels of leakage to earth.   That circuit would also not be under control on an ELCB or similar.   Otherwise, the ELCB needs to be set at an hazardous trip current to avoid outages and food spoilage.       .... Phil

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 28 10:36AM -0800 > On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:   > > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.   > I guess this is why Brits prefer warm beer.     No, it's because their refrigerators are made by Lucas! :)

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 28 12:55PM -0800 > No, it's because their refrigerators are made by Lucas! :)     Prince of Darkness, yes.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 28 02:23PM -0800 > > No, it's because their refrigerators are made by Lucas! :)   > Prince of Darkness, yes.     And he prefers to live in England, thank God! :)

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Feb 28 02:30PM -0800 On Friday, 28 February 2020 15:36:50 UTC, Michael Terrell wrote: > On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabby wrote:   > > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.   > It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?   If we get a breaker trip, which doesn't happen often, people switch it back on, and if necessary plug the fridge freezer in somewhere else. It doesn't seem to be a significant issue. If you only had the fridge on the circuit it would take far longer to realise power was lost.     NT

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Feb 28 02:32PM -0800 On Friday, 28 February 2020 18:13:58 UTC, Phil Allison wrote:   > > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? > > Such a thing is unheard of here.   > ** IME, it is common practice here ( Australia ) to put fridges and freezers on a dedicated circuit since they often have high levels of leakage to earth.   I'm not aware of ours suffering that. Why do they have alot of leakage?

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Feb 28 02:35PM -0800 On Friday, 28 February 2020 22:23:27 UTC, Michael Terrell wrote:   > > > No, it's because their refrigerators are made by Lucas! :)   > > Prince of Darkness, yes.   > And he prefers to live in England, thank God! :)   Lucas electrics weren't the ultimate, but weren't too bad really. And it was a long time ago.   I've never heard of Lucas fridges.     NT

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Feb 28 03:08PM -0800 tabb...@gmail.com wrote:   -------------------------     > > ** IME, it is common practice here ( Australia ) to put fridges and freezers on a dedicated circuit since they often have high levels of leakage to earth.   > I'm not aware of ours suffering that. Why do they have alot of leakage?   ** Not answering hostile questions from fuckheads like you.   FFS Google the topic.       .... Phil

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 28 05:20PM -0800 > > > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.   > > It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?   > If we get a breaker trip, which doesn't happen often, people switch it back on, and if necessary plug the fridge freezer in somewhere else. It doesn't seem to be a significant issue. If you only had the fridge on the circuit it would take far longer to realize power was lost.     If it trips with only the fridge or freezer on the circuit, resetting the breaker wouldn't do any good, if a few hundred Watt load is tripping a 20A breaker.

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Feb 28 06:39PM -0800 On 2020/02/28 5:20 p.m., Michael Terrell wrote:   >>> It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?   >> If we get a breaker trip, which doesn't happen often, people switch it back on, and if necessary plug the fridge freezer in somewhere else. It doesn't seem to be a significant issue. If you only had the fridge on the circuit it would take far longer to realize power was lost.   > If it trips with only the fridge or freezer on the circuit, resetting the breaker wouldn't do any good, if a few hundred Watt load is tripping a 20A breaker.   Indeed, if the fridge trips the breaker then it is broken...shorted motor or similar. Not going to work any better on another outlet! Whereas sometimes you can pop a breaker and not realize it.   One can always get a battery powered fridge alarm - I have it on our deep freeze, but my wife doesn't want it on the house fridge as she doesn't like the look of it...   John :-#)#

M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net>: Feb 28 06:31PM -0500 I know someone out there must of worked on one of these rigs at one time or another.. Currently I am working on one that I bought new years ago and I brought it out of storage and decided to restore it's operation ...   First, the FM on this rig never worked the way it should have, always low audio level on receive but I never cared for that anyways back then and never gave it any thought.. But I decided now to look into it. It appears on the RF board, the one on the bottom behaves like it has leakages in the circuit.. Why I say this is because I am getting enough voltage on the emitter of Q39 which also has a DIODE (D109) connecting to the FM decoder chip to partially squelch out the audio...   According to the print I shouold be getting near 0 volts here in RX mode but I get around 3 volts which is enough to forward bias D109 and mute the FM audio.   I looked at every component that is connected to that rail, things like the TX switch that supplies 8 volts to that rail down to all the tracks to disables the RX RF buffers etc..   I disconnectec diode after diode looking for leakage and found none but thbere absolutely voltage getting there with no sign of where its coming from... So I noticed that if I loaded the line down with a 1k resistor it all works great. Btw, there does not appear to be any shunting R to common as it is now? Bad design maybe but normally you have a pull down R, I can't locate one anywhere in that circuit.   SO I notice when I disconnect diodes to the various paths on the board this leakage voltage was reducing itself..   I've come to a conclusion that the fiber board has come partially conductive over time and due to the multiple paths for possible leaks this all adds up and since I see no pull down R in the circuit any where, I put in a 1K and not it seems to work...   Does all this make any sense at all ?

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Feb 28 06:59PM -0500 In article <MPG.38c36cd82804c3dd98a0df@news.eternal-september.org>, jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net says... > leakages in the circuit.. Why I say this is because I am getting enough > voltage on the emitter of Q39 which also has a DIODE (D109) connecting > to the FM decoder chip to partially squelch out the audio..   Check the transistors around that circuit. I have a 757 that developed some receive problems about 10 years ago and traced it to leaky transistors. Look for any that the voltages do not match the schematic.

John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Feb 28 03:14PM -0800 On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 1:12:55 PM UTC-5, All Bumbed Up wrote: > the results seem gone when clicked on), but not this one.   > I get nothing from NTE searches, etc.   > Thanks in advance.     You can try Asti Magnetics and see if they're still in business.

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Feb 28 03:36PM -0800 On 2020/02/27 10:12 a.m., All Bumbed Up wrote: > the results seem gone when clicked on), but not this one.   > I get nothing from NTE searches, etc.   > Thanks in advance.   What monitor is this from? I have some NOS older SAMPO flybacks...   John :-#)#   -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. MOVED to #7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

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"Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 12:06PM -0500 >> by me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into >> the other outlet?   > By adding a second load to what should be a dedicated circuit.   But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 09:33AM -0800 > But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I > required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.   Wrong. Two reasons:   a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.   b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.   When I was doing this for a living (more than 40 years ago) we used simplex receptacles for the refrigerator line. So that down-line idiots did not make that same mistake you might make. That and any other 'dedicated' circuits, with special reference to AC, 240 V Dryer and similar circuits.   https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Feb 27 12:51PM -0500 In article <fc01f57a-c842-4675-b2b5-a90a99e56bb1@googlegroups.com>, peterwieck33@gmail.com says...   > b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.   Son moved into a house that had the refrigerator on a circuit with several other outlets in the kitchen. Was even powered from a receptical that was a ground fault. Found this out one day when he called and said there was no power on his refrigerator. No breakers were tripped. I looked around and finally found the GFCI receptical that was tripped.

"Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 01:32PM -0500 > Wrong. Two reasons:   > a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" > for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.   That's ignorance of the law, not ignorance of what an electrician did under someone else's supervision.     > where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that > receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear > circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.   So you are under the impression that I have something plugged into the same outlet. I didn't say that. I said it was on the same breaker as other outlets. There is no way in hell I would be blamed for using another outlet.

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 11:13AM -0800 Cutting to the chase:   a) You have demonstrated, in a public forum, that you fully understand the situation. b) You also demonstrate that you understand the code. c) You also demonstrate that you know that the situation is not up to present code. d) You also demonstrate that you understand that by plugging in a second large-use device, you are creating a risk, albeit a very small one.   Feigned ignorance will get you nowhere should that risk manifest. You might not like it, but the other principle of assigning liability is called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having, clearly.   https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

"Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 02:20PM -0500 > called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having, > clearly.   > https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107   "could have still avoided the accident by reasonable care in the final moments"   Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the owner is liable.

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 11:43AM -0800 > Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an > option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the > owner is liable.     Well, in the awful event that you need to test this belief, I hope you survive the event unscathed, and I hope that you are successful should it go to court.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net>: Feb 28 01:46AM -0500 > https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   Neither the logic nor the NEC apply to him plugging a toaster into a receptacle, dedicated or not.   There is NO requirement per the NEC that the receptacle for the 'fridge be dedicated. (quoting the NEC) 210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.     The current NEC requires that the (two or more) small appliance circuits and receptacle be in the kitchen, wired properly etc. It does NOT govern what the user plugs into them. Nor does it say a circuit must be dedicated to the refrigerator.   As to the law - what law specifies that a user not plug a toaster into a receptacle?   Ed

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Feb 28 04:26AM -0800 > https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.     NT

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 28 07:36AM -0800 > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.     It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Feb 28 07:44AM -0800 On 2020/02/28 7:36 a.m., Michael Terrell wrote: > On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:   >> why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.   > It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?   Electrical code in Canada requires refrigerators to be on a separate outlet (with only a single power outlet, not a dual outlet as well) with their own breaker for just that reason.   (irrational rant on) Government electrical safety regulations, who needs them? (irrational rant off)   John :-#)#

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Feb 28 10:57AM -0500 In article <bc541529-bc28-4eb5-bc37-1905b84313bb@googlegroups.com>, terrell.michael.a@gmail.com says...   > It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?   I think there is something in the NEC about the ground fault outlets in a basement not needing to be uses on the refrigerator/freezor outlet for the same reason.   Like the idiot that wired a GFCI receptical and down stream was the refrigerator receptical in a house my son bought. Ground fault tripped and almost let the refrigerator get too warm before he caught it.

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 27 10:46AM -0600 > Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all > connect (if different from where the meter is)?   At the risk of stating the obvious, because that's code. Despite what everyone else states.   It's there for protection to make sure the line voltages are referenced to ground.   Simply put, one and only one ground, and it's at the service entrance.   If you insist on putting in a second ground, such as at a well/pump house, or an amateur radio station, the grounds must remain separate.     -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 27 10:56AM -0600 On 2/27/20 12:44 AM, Jeff Urban wrote: > You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one > in the house is properly rated. However for lights and > outlets you do.   As usual, you are wrong.   You put a breaker at the source (service panel) to protect the line running to the pump. You are required to have a disconnect AT the pump. Another breaker in a sub panel for the pump/well house is the easiest way to accomplish that.   As I said previously, and using a 30 amp service to the pump as an example.   1. 30 amp dual breaker for a 10-3 run to the pump. 2. A four slot sub panel (rated at 30 amps minimum) at the pump. 3. A 30 amp dual breaker for the pump. 4. An additional 20 amp single for any outlets. 5. And a 15-20 Amp breaker for any lighting circuit.   If the pump motor is electrically connected to the well casing, do NOT ground it through the ground from the service panel. Use the service panel for the grounds on the outlet and lighting circuits only.   It's NOT that complicated people. Try not to make it complicated or unsafe.     -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

"Ron D." <ron.dozier@gmail.com>: Feb 27 10:24AM -0800 Since the pump house is a "detached" structure, the pump house panel should have a local ground rod for lightning protection. Ground and neutral should remain separated.   The number of breakers determine whether or not it needs a main breaker. Memory says >6.   Panels are divided into two major categories "main lug" or "main breaker". "main lug" is wired for separated N and ground. "Main breaker" has a "main breaker" and the N and G are bonded together.   Usually there is a way to unbond the neutral and you purchase a ground bar kit to add to the panel. This gives you the separate G and N connections and a disconnect for that sub-panel.   You can read the NEC for free online.

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 28 07:30AM -0800 > > Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground > > is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).   > Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?   What happens when that one wire opens? A bad neutral is a very common fault. Then you have no place for a fault current to go. RIP!.

All Bumbed Up <allbummedup@cao.net>: Feb 27 01:12PM -0500 A real hold up in trying to recreate a schematic from the circuit board. The flyback number was FMH-1232BE made by Semco(?).   The only possible leads I've had so far is from the hrdiemen.com website. A general FMH only search brings up several (and over half of the results seem gone when clicked on), but not this one.   I get nothing from NTE searches, etc.   Thanks in advance.

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amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Feb 27 10:34AM -0600 On 1/27/2020 11:20 AM, amdx wrote: > I you don't want to hear about Latent heat of vaporization and > boiling water skip to 4:40.   >                               Mikek   Disappointed no one had any interest in this. If you have no interest in this, you should see the one about the color brown :-)   > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh4aWZRtTwU   OK, I did find it interesting.     Mikek

Ken Layton <KLayton888@aol.com>: Feb 27 08:30AM -0800 On Saturday, February 23, 2019 at 12:52:57 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com > Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558   To follow up on this problem, I sent John copies of the schematics from the BC855XLT service manual I have. Hopefully, he will be able to fix his problem with the channel memory. As a side note, my late mom had this same model scanner and it exhibited the same problems as John is having. So it would appear this problem was happening to other BC855XLT scanners too.

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 07:29AM -0800 > A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They > need to be separate.   Yes. There is nothing "neutral" about a neutral. And why it is that if there are only three wires from the House (Main) panel to the sub panel, an additional SEPARATE ground must be provided in the Pump House, as that third wire is now, de-facto, the neutral.   As it happens, there is no reason not to have multiple GROUNDS within a system, as long as there is one, and only one Neutral. I remember back in the day the master-electrician I worked for was a fanatic about balancing loads as closely as practical, even in a residential application. If loads are exactly balanced, then from the Panel to the Pole, the neutral will carry no current at all. But within the residence, pretty much every neutral will carry load. Easily demonstrated with an ammeter.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

bruce2bowser@gmail.com: Feb 27 07:46AM -0800 On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 10:20:06 PM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote: > > need to be separate.   > Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground > is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).   Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)?

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 27 08:10AM -0800 On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:26:11 -0500, Tom Biasi <tombiasi@optonline.net> wrote:     >> Good luck with it!   >A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They >need to be separate. I knew that. Ground and neutral only bonded in the main panel. When I wired my shop I brought all the grounds from the CNC and manual machines back to the main panel to avoid ground loops. The control makers stressed that ground loops are to be avoided. Eric

"Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 03:48AM -0500 > installation and/or add additional load than just the refrigerator.   > It is unlikely the landlord will get dinged 'if the building burns' - > as the lawyers will go through the first-cause (you) first.   No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified by me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into the other outlet?

"Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 03:52AM -0500 amdx wrote:   >> Yeah, thanks, but I realize that. It's the landlord's fault if the >> building burns. I have my own insurance. His might be cancelled.   > Hope you're not sleeping if a fire starts!   I hardly ever use a toaster oven while I'm sleeping. It's the only 9 amp load I have.

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 04:28AM -0800 > No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified by > me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into the > other outlet?     By adding a second load to what should be a dedicated circuit.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

All Bumbed Up <allbummedup@cao.net>: Feb 27 01:49AM -0500 On 2/26/20 8:25 PM, All Bumbed Up wrote: > doesn't show up anywhere in data as well as what looks like a small > torodial transformer would with input and output turns.  How can I go > about adding these unknowns?   This evening, I identified values for almost all of the components in preparation for placement tomorrow.   I solved the issue of scaling differences between the board and the components. I just had to reverse the length and width specs.   There are still two components I have been unable to locate, what I believe is a line filter (a bifilar toroid with bifilar input and output) and a 9 pin flyback. Nothing comes up in cross reference online nor on the database Target 3001 offers, so would welcome any suggestions as to what to do here.   Otherwise, I think I'm ready to proceed.

Jeff Urban <jurb6006@gmail.com>: Feb 26 10:54PM -0800 >Not all components on the circuit >board can be readily identified   That can be a problem. You probably have to do it manually but then figure out how to work it into the drawing in the software.   Another thing is two sided boards have been around for a longtime, I have no idea how you put that together but you can bet you have to depopulate the board to get a picture of it.   It might be a good idea to try it on a board that you know, well the schematic of. You can get used to what kind of errors and other shit you can run into.   If you got more than a two sided board, like four layers which are in many things now, such a program will not do much good. The outer foil patterns could be nothing but a power plane and a ground plane. The real works is hidden underneath.

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etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 08:54AM -0800 On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:04:58 -0600, Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net> wrote:   >A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be >the simplest solution. ><https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG> Thanks. I had never seen or even heard of a quad breaker. Eric

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 08:56AM -0800 On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:32:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery   >Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is >ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the >neutral ? Well, I assumed they were using a real neutral. In my neighbor's well house there is a real neutral. I know this because I have had to do work on his pumps. Eric

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 08:58AM -0800 On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:05:18 -0800 (PST), "pfjw@aol.com" >One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).   >Peter Wieck >Melrose Park, PA So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house and then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, right? The breaker in the house is to protect the 10 gauge wire running to the pump house, the other breakers to protect the pump itself and the lighting circuit. Eric

three_jeeps <jjhudak@gmail.com>: Feb 26 09:00AM -0800 > correct way. > Thanks, > Eric   absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel J

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 10:02AM -0800 On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:00:57 -0800 (PST), three_jeeps >> Eric   >absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel >J I don't know what you mean, split before the house distribution panel. The pump now is fed from the main breaker panel in the house. It is on its own breaker. When the pump house is done I will install a sub panel in it to distribute power to the pump and to lights and to a 120 volt receptacle. Eric

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 26 10:10AM -0800 If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).   If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.   Good luck with it!

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 10:52AM -0800 On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:57 -0800 (PST), "pfjw@aol.com"   >If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).   >If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.   >Good luck with it! Yeah, I have 4 wires. I planned ahead when I first wired the pump. I am not always so organized. Eric

Tom Biasi <tombiasi@optonline.net>: Feb 26 08:26PM -0500 > If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).   > If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.   > Good luck with it!   A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They need to be separate.

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 26 09:19PM -0600 On 2/26/20 7:26 PM, Tom Biasi wrote: >> sub-panel.   > A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They > need to be separate.   Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).     -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

Jeff Urban <jurb6006@gmail.com>: Feb 26 10:44PM -0800 >So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house >and then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, >right?   You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one in the house is properly rated. However for lights and outlets you do.   A 240V breaker is a tandem which means when one side overloads both trip. They are mechanically coupled to achieve that.   There is a five move rule, you have to be able to shut down the whole building in five moves. So you'll have two, one for lights one for outlets. IF there is a box it has to be, however if it is ONLY the pump then don't even worry about it. I am unsure though if the one breaker in the house qualifies as a one move shutdown, is should but the code can be weird, you put a box in there and you got more rules. So if you have another breaker out there that is one move. Outlets a move, lights a move. If for any reason you have to add more circuits out there then all you get is five unless there is another main out there, which I think is unnecessary.   What would you add ? A pool pump ? Those are mostly 240V but with the tandem breaker that is only one move.   One of the houses I put a panel in I retained the original FPE box and used what used to go to fuses, a 50 amp, to the main lugs of the sub panel. The backyard where the meter was was all overgrown with trees and weeds, trees that used to be weeds and just forget it. So then some yahoo comes in and mumbles something about code and eliminates the original FPE box. Now it is like 12 moves to shut down the building, THAT is against code. I washed my hands of it. I would have put the main kit on the box, GEs have that option, but of course he didn't bother with that. Once someone does that I am absolved when the house burns down and guess what...   The same guy saw my furnace which was installed sideways, which is code and it was a furnace made for it. (it must, the flame arrestor is configured differently) It was nice because there was a huige return oh the first floor right into the intake so I put the filter so they could change it without going in the basement. Hey the guy was getting old.   The reason for the after the fact ranys is to watch who you listen to when it comes to code. Evne if they show you the book, there are sections. Like this driveway here, I wasn't here for that but the guy cheated, put the new driveway about 1-2" higher than the original. They of course guarantee it not to crack but didn't want to do the digging. If someone bitched he would have sid it is code, but that is bullshit. Tell him to show you the book and he'll open the pages on footers and foundations, which ARE regulated. Ask "Then how the hell can I have a cement basement floor ?".   For any of this shit go to a union hall and hang around a little. Catch them walking out, if they are there early in the afternoon they are probably looking for work. Most have a problem with residential here on 38 unless it is a new install of something. But some will do it. here, they got stickers and if they put their sticker on the job the inspector doesn't even look. He knows it is right. There is a unique number for each journeyman and if shit happens it falls on them. You might pay over $200 a day but you can pay some asshole that much who doesn't know jack shit and endangers you.   Your call.   If you have the breaker in the house, you can use an old junk fusebox as long as you're only pulling 120v. However use that house ground, do not put another ground in and if you do not have a house ground out there and you do pound one in do not tie it to the neutral.   Also if you put a breaker out there for the pump it will have to be a GFCI. The one in the house is grandfathered in.

All Bumbed Up <allbummedup@cao.net>: Feb 26 05:48PM -0500 On 2/25/20 3:03 PM, Ron D. wrote: > Target 3001 https://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php/Reverse_Engineering has a facility that can help.   > You start with an image of the board, Then add components to another layer and connect the components. The schematic then comes out as "rats nest" that you have to sort out.   Thanks, downloaded and tried it out today, but ran into a couple of hitches. I was trying to use the instructions shown at the above link:   1) I refer to step 4, import packages. It says to place it on the layout, which I did, but does not indicate how to release it there so it stays put. How is this done? Tried double clicking, etc but to no avail.   2) I was trying to place a 555 timer. It was only about half the size of the image underneath. Which can I reduce/ enlarge and how?   That's it for now. If remedied, I can then try proceeding forward to the next steps. I am using a simple, single sided board with less than 30 components, which are mostly resistors, capacitors and diodes.   Thanks in advance!

All Bumbed Up <allbummedup@cao.net>: Feb 26 08:25PM -0500 On 2/26/20 5:48 PM, All Bumbed Up wrote:   > 1) I refer to step 4, import packages.  It says to place it on the > layout, which I did, but does not indicate how to release it there so it > stays put.  How is this done?  Tried double clicking, etc but to no avail.   Alright, have to press the ESC key. Got it.     > 2) I was trying to place a 555 timer.  It was only about half the size > of the image underneath.  Which can I reduce/ enlarge and how?   Still not sure about this one.   > the next steps.  I am using a simple, single sided board with less than > 30 components, which are mostly resistors, capacitors and diodes.   > Thanks in advance!   One other thing I'm running across. Not all components on the circuit board can be readily identified. There is a flyback, for example, that doesn't show up anywhere in data as well as what looks like a small torodial transformer would with input and output turns. How can I go about adding these unknowns?

bruce2bowser@gmail.com: Feb 26 11:55AM -0800 -- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7680145/Electricity-substation-worker-narrowly-avoids-electrocution-shocking-video.html

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Feb 26 03:08PM -0800 bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:   -----------------------------   ** Stale news pal.   Saw that video a couple of years ago.

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 09:05AM -0800 Since my post asking about well pump house wiring I went to several neighbor's places to look at their pump house wiring. They ALL have the lights connected to 1/2 of the 240 supply to the pump. NONE have breakers for the light(s). My feeling is that when the wells were first drilled and the pump lowered that was as far as the well driller went. Building the pump house and wiring it up were left to the homeowner. Just as in my case. I ran the power to my pump. When the electrical inspection was done the inspector did not look at the pump wiring. Didn't even ask about it. I'm putting a sub panel in my pump house. Eric

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 26 09:43AM -0800 I'm putting a sub panel in my pump house.   Wise man.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 10:09AM -0800 On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:55:18 -0700, KenW   >That breaker protects BOTH sides of the feed so the lights DO NOT need >their own breaker.   >KenW I don't understand this. The lights are on lighter gauge wire than the pump, 14 gauge for lights and 10 gauge for the pump. Will the breaker sized for the pump and its wiring also protect the lighter gauge wiring? What am I missing? I know that the 240 volt breaker is two ganged breakers and if one trips it also trips the other one. But the pump is on 30 amp breakers and the lights should be on 15 amp, right? Eric

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 26 10:49AM -0800 Because Ken gave you wretched advice. Now, let's look at this two ways:   What is the right way:   a) 4-conductor,10-gauge or better from the Main Panel to the pump house, fused at the main by a 30 Amp double-pole breaker. b) In a four-position 240 Volt sub-panel, one double-pole breaker at 20 Amps to the pump, using 12-gauge or better wire. IF the pump is designed for 240 Volts, and has no internal 120 Volt functions, then the wire to the pump may be 3-conductor wire, that is hot/hot/ground. Such systems are not designed to require a neutral. IF there are 120 Volt functions within the pump, you MUST use 4-conductor wire by code, being Hot/Neutral/Hot/Ground. Your pump instructions will have all this information. c) One single-pole breaker to lighting - and there is no reason not to make this a 20 amp breaker feeding 12-gauge wire. d) One single-pole breaker to the receptacle(s) - as above.   Ideally you will install a WR-rated GFIC as a receptacle. You may consider installing a GFIC breaker for the lighting as well. When it comes to power in damp locations, belt-suspenders-Velcro is the way to go with safety in mind. NOTE 1: WR-rated GFIC devices have a short life - I have never had one last even five years. You do test them regularly, I hope? But they are well worth that cost for safety.   NOTE 2: Well pumps have, or should have an EQUIPMENT GROUND CONDUCTOR (EGC). And this is why they do not require (and should not be on) a GFIC device as you _WILL_ get false trips using one.   The wrong way - expect the one double-pole breaker to protect everything. In my experience, under ideal conditions, properly maintained, and so forth, this will be fine 90% of the time. It is that niggling 10% that should be bothering you.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

KenW <ken1943@invalid.net>: Feb 26 10:55AM -0700 >wiring. Didn't even ask about it. I'm putting a sub panel in my pump >house. >Eric   That breaker protects BOTH sides of the feed so the lights DO NOT need their own breaker.     KenW

Nife Sima <gorplop@sdf.org>: Feb 26 05:51PM +0100 > Thanks Wieck, for your insight. Optical sensors are clean, and no error code reported. Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   If you get a Tray 2 jam error, and theres no paper jam, then the paper jam sensors are faulty. Check these again with a multimeter if they are mechanical, and clean the optical ones out throughly as Peter Wieck said   -- Nife Sima - the lower earth crust

three_jeeps <jjhudak@gmail.com>: Feb 26 08:54AM -0800 > Thanks Wieck, for your insight. Optical sensors are clean, and no error code reported. Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   not sure how to parse the last sentence. Is there a period missing? >Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error. Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   If parsed this way, seems that cpu is confused about status/state of paper trays.....so check the tray sensors. A HP service manual would be very helpful....do you have one?

three_jeeps <jjhudak@gmail.com>: Feb 26 08:56AM -0800 On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 11:54:07 AM UTC-5, three_jeeps wrote: > >Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error. Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   > If parsed this way, seems that cpu is confused about status/state of paper trays.....so check the tray sensors. > A HP service manual would be very helpful....do you have one?     forgot to add: you say solenoid checks fine on external source...did you check the solenoid signal path?..Signal present but not getting through?

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 09:04AM -0800 Yeah! Well. Do have the service manual. As for the signal path, any detailed advice on howto?

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 09:14AM -0800 I do have the service manual. As for the signal path, any detailed advice on howto? Thank you for your kind help.

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 09:15AM -0800 Do have the service manual. As for the signal path, any detailed advice on howto? And thank you for your kind help.

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reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 12:11AM -0800 Hello! Solenoid is fine; not sticking and energizes with external source. Needless to say MP feed won't pickup paper. Also the printer spits out a single blank paper from Tray 2 whenever powered. Any ideas?

Nife Sima <gorplop@sdf.org>: Feb 26 01:07PM +0100 > Hello! > Solenoid is fine; not sticking and energizes with external source. Needless to say MP feed won't pickup paper. Also the printer spits out a single blank paper from Tray 2 whenever powered. Any ideas?   Looks like it's confused about the paper sheet location, so to speak.   Check all limit switches and endstops (optical and mechanical)

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 04:42AM -0800 Thank you for replying. Sensors seem to be okay. Also blank paper spitting is only at the time of powering on the printer, as if that makes any sense.

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 26 07:39AM -0800 I will guess that there is a sensor jammed/clogged such that it believes there is something in the pathway that it tries to reject - spits out a piece of paper. When that sensor does not clear, it shuts down. Have you cleaned the optical sensors? Either 91% Isopropyl alcohol and a very soft cloth, or distilled water and that same cloth.   Paper dust is is a very real issue, especially on heavily used copiers. Best of luck with it.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 08:24AM -0800 Thanks Wieck, for your insight. Optical sensors are clean, and no error code reported. Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 25 02:56PM -0800 On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 at 10:43:19 AM UTC-5, legg wrote: > disconnect the AC line and add a ground wire on the line > cord.   > . . . . of course it's still not CSA or UL.     When I started working in a TV shop in the mid '60s, every bench had a switch to shut off all power. It had two intended uses. A way to kill a bench if someone was being shocked or something was arching, and to turn off everything when the bench wasn't being used. They were mounted on the ends of the benches, where there was nothing to block access. My shop has each light fixture on its own switch, so all the tools and test equipment are powered down when I leave and turn out the lights. All of these are switched by the main door, so they are easy to get to.   This is similar to the General Electric switches we used back in the '60s. They can be padlocked if you don't want anyone to use the bench when you aren't there.   <https://www.homedepot.com/p/Siemens-General-Duty-30-Amp-240-Volt-1-Pole-Fusible-Safety-Switch-with-Neutral-LF111N/205623361?mtc=Shopping-VF-F_D27E-G-D27E-27_8_CIRCUIT_PROTECT_DEVICES-Generic-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-CIRCUIT_PROTECT_DEVICES&cm_mmc=Shopping-VF-F_D27E-G-D27E-27_8_CIRCUIT_PROTECT_DEVICES-Generic-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-CIRCUIT_PROTECT_DEVICES-71700000033149223-58700003867184469-92700048703482864&gclid=Cj0KCQiAqNPyBRCjARIsAKA-WFzSjmPf4oH9mo9HqD0H-giB1l_uK4ZN43EVnuJb8xHeTP1UwiYu F7UaArVpEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds>

"Ron D." <ron.dozier@gmail.com>: Feb 25 12:03PM -0800 Target 3001 https://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php/Reverse_Engineering has a facility that can help.   You start with an image of the board, Then add components to another layer and connect the components. The schematic then comes out as "rats nest" that you have to sort out.

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Feb 25 01:01PM -0800 On 2020/02/25 12:03 p.m., Ron D. wrote: > Target 3001 https://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php/Reverse_Engineering has a facility that can help.   > You start with an image of the board, Then add components to another layer and connect the components. The schematic then comes out as "rats nest" that you have to sort out.   It would appear that KiCAD is also a possibility for RE:   https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg07628.html   (I have Target 3001 as well)   John :-#)#

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 25 09:20AM -0800 a) If the landlord provides wiring that is/was to-code when installed. b) If the code states that a refrigerator should be on a dedicated circuit. c) If the tenant attempts to go around the original and proper installation and/or add additional load than just the refrigerator.   It is unlikely the landlord will get dinged 'if the building burns' - as the lawyers will go through the first-cause (you) first.   Line drop: is it 3 volts under load? Is it 3 volts in general? What gauge is the wire, and how long is the run? And are there any splices along that run? As an example, we have a 12-gauge, 20 A dedicated circuit to our refrigerator that is about 75' in developed length, no splices. Just for giggles, we have 118 V at the panel, line-to-ground, and 117 V at the receptacle, unloaded. And within the limits of measurement error anyway.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Feb 25 12:31PM -0600 On 2/25/2020 10:38 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:   >> Mikek   > Yeah, thanks, but I realize that. It's the landlord's fault if the > building burns. I have my own insurance. His might be cancelled.   Hope you're not sleeping if a fire starts! My problem really shook me, because of the way the wood was scorched inside the wall. If we had a hot night when the freezers had to run, a fire could have happened. It's a 45 year old house, hmm, it was only 20 years old when I moved in. Mikek

amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Feb 25 12:45PM -0600 > Line drop: is it 3 volts under load? Is it 3 volts in general? What gauge is the wire, and how long is the run? And are there any splices along that run? As an example, we have a 12-gauge, 20 A dedicated circuit to our refrigerator that is about 75' in developed length, no splices. Just for giggles, we have 118 V at the panel, line-to-ground, and 117 V at the receptacle, unloaded. And within the limits of measurement error anyway.   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   With a 10 Meg ohm DVM, That doesn't sound right. 150ft of #12 wire is 0.2382 ohms, add 0.1 ohms for the 4 connections and you have 0.3382 ohms, you would need 4.2 amps to drop 1 Volt. Are sure there is nothing else on that line?   Couple clarifications, What do you mean by developed? and line-to-ground? is it a two wire system? Line to ground, line to neutral should not be different, But... Mikek

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 25 11:00AM -0800 Developed length: The total amount of wire in the run. Not the direct distance between the panel and the receptacle, which is less than 60 feet.   Standard Hot/Neutral/Ground 12/2 Romex. And, as the Neutral and the Ground are bonded to the same buss-bar, the voltages are the same.   Consider a measuring device (voltmeter) - and it has a margin of error. Consider that at the panel, it is measuring at the bottom of the 118 V level, and at the receptacle, at the top of the 117 V level. That is what I mean by measurement error.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

"Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 25 12:19PM -0500 > I have seen devices that require a thin tool inserted into the holes > (please, not when plugged in), to release internal tabs. Maybe that?   When I was a kid we had a vaporizer (humidifier that used electrodes in water inside a sealed container) that looked like it was designed in the 50's or early 60's. It had an excellent safety that required you to insert its own plug to unlock it to open for cleaning, and it locked the plug in place until you closed it.

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