- Refrigerator current load - 12 Updates
- USA wiring question - 4 Updates
- anyone have info on this old flyback? - 1 Update
| "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 12:06PM -0500 >> by me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into >> the other outlet? > By adding a second load to what should be a dedicated circuit. But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me. |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 09:33AM -0800 > But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I > required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me. Wrong. Two reasons: a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability. b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch. When I was doing this for a living (more than 40 years ago) we used simplex receptacles for the refrigerator line. So that down-line idiots did not make that same mistake you might make. That and any other 'dedicated' circuits, with special reference to AC, 240 V Dryer and similar circuits. https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$ Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Feb 27 12:51PM -0500 In article <fc01f57a-c842-4675-b2b5-a90a99e56bb1@googlegroups.com>, peterwieck33@gmail.com says... > b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch. Son moved into a house that had the refrigerator on a circuit with several other outlets in the kitchen. Was even powered from a receptical that was a ground fault. Found this out one day when he called and said there was no power on his refrigerator. No breakers were tripped. I looked around and finally found the GFCI receptical that was tripped. |
| "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 01:32PM -0500 > Wrong. Two reasons: > a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" > for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability. That's ignorance of the law, not ignorance of what an electrician did under someone else's supervision. > where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that > receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear > circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch. So you are under the impression that I have something plugged into the same outlet. I didn't say that. I said it was on the same breaker as other outlets. There is no way in hell I would be blamed for using another outlet. |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 11:13AM -0800 Cutting to the chase: a) You have demonstrated, in a public forum, that you fully understand the situation. b) You also demonstrate that you understand the code. c) You also demonstrate that you know that the situation is not up to present code. d) You also demonstrate that you understand that by plugging in a second large-use device, you are creating a risk, albeit a very small one. Feigned ignorance will get you nowhere should that risk manifest. You might not like it, but the other principle of assigning liability is called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having, clearly. https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107 Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| "Tom Del Rosso" <fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com>: Feb 27 02:20PM -0500 > called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having, > clearly. > https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107 "could have still avoided the accident by reasonable care in the final moments" Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the owner is liable. |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 27 11:43AM -0800 > Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an > option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the > owner is liable. Well, in the awful event that you need to test this belief, I hope you survive the event unscathed, and I hope that you are successful should it go to court. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| ehsjr <ehsjr@verizon.net>: Feb 28 01:46AM -0500 > https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$ > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA Neither the logic nor the NEC apply to him plugging a toaster into a receptacle, dedicated or not. There is NO requirement per the NEC that the receptacle for the 'fridge be dedicated. (quoting the NEC) 210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment. The current NEC requires that the (two or more) small appliance circuits and receptacle be in the kitchen, wired properly etc. It does NOT govern what the user plugs into them. Nor does it say a circuit must be dedicated to the refrigerator. As to the law - what law specifies that a user not plug a toaster into a receptacle? Ed |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Feb 28 04:26AM -0800 > https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$ > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here. NT |
| Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 28 07:36AM -0800 > why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here. It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well? |
| John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Feb 28 07:44AM -0800 On 2020/02/28 7:36 a.m., Michael Terrell wrote: > On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote: >> why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here. > It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well? Electrical code in Canada requires refrigerators to be on a separate outlet (with only a single power outlet, not a dual outlet as well) with their own breaker for just that reason. (irrational rant on) Government electrical safety regulations, who needs them? (irrational rant off) John :-#)# |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Feb 28 10:57AM -0500 In article <bc541529-bc28-4eb5-bc37-1905b84313bb@googlegroups.com>, terrell.michael.a@gmail.com says... > It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well? I think there is something in the NEC about the ground fault outlets in a basement not needing to be uses on the refrigerator/freezor outlet for the same reason. Like the idiot that wired a GFCI receptical and down stream was the refrigerator receptical in a house my son bought. Ground fault tripped and almost let the refrigerator get too warm before he caught it. |
| Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 27 10:46AM -0600 > Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all > connect (if different from where the meter is)? At the risk of stating the obvious, because that's code. Despite what everyone else states. It's there for protection to make sure the line voltages are referenced to ground. Simply put, one and only one ground, and it's at the service entrance. If you insist on putting in a second ground, such as at a well/pump house, or an amateur radio station, the grounds must remain separate. -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
| Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 27 10:56AM -0600 On 2/27/20 12:44 AM, Jeff Urban wrote: > You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one > in the house is properly rated. However for lights and > outlets you do. As usual, you are wrong. You put a breaker at the source (service panel) to protect the line running to the pump. You are required to have a disconnect AT the pump. Another breaker in a sub panel for the pump/well house is the easiest way to accomplish that. As I said previously, and using a 30 amp service to the pump as an example. 1. 30 amp dual breaker for a 10-3 run to the pump. 2. A four slot sub panel (rated at 30 amps minimum) at the pump. 3. A 30 amp dual breaker for the pump. 4. An additional 20 amp single for any outlets. 5. And a 15-20 Amp breaker for any lighting circuit. If the pump motor is electrically connected to the well casing, do NOT ground it through the ground from the service panel. Use the service panel for the grounds on the outlet and lighting circuits only. It's NOT that complicated people. Try not to make it complicated or unsafe. -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com |
| "Ron D." <ron.dozier@gmail.com>: Feb 27 10:24AM -0800 Since the pump house is a "detached" structure, the pump house panel should have a local ground rod for lightning protection. Ground and neutral should remain separated. The number of breakers determine whether or not it needs a main breaker. Memory says >6. Panels are divided into two major categories "main lug" or "main breaker". "main lug" is wired for separated N and ground. "Main breaker" has a "main breaker" and the N and G are bonded together. Usually there is a way to unbond the neutral and you purchase a ground bar kit to add to the panel. This gives you the separate G and N connections and a disconnect for that sub-panel. You can read the NEC for free online. |
| Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com>: Feb 28 07:30AM -0800 > > Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground > > is a the service panel (the one with the Meter). > Why not just to the one where the branch circuits all connect (if different from where the meter is)? What happens when that one wire opens? A bad neutral is a very common fault. Then you have no place for a fault current to go. RIP!. |
| All Bumbed Up <allbummedup@cao.net>: Feb 27 01:12PM -0500 A real hold up in trying to recreate a schematic from the circuit board. The flyback number was FMH-1232BE made by Semco(?). The only possible leads I've had so far is from the hrdiemen.com website. A general FMH only search brings up several (and over half of the results seem gone when clicked on), but not this one. I get nothing from NTE searches, etc. Thanks in advance. |
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