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etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 08:54AM -0800 On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 12:04:58 -0600, Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net> wrote:   >A simple sub-panel in the well house with a "quad" breaker would be >the simplest solution. ><https://www.zoro.com/static/cms/product/full/Z1wBpzmcpEx_.JPG> Thanks. I had never seen or even heard of a quad breaker. Eric

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 08:56AM -0800 On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 13:32:45 -0500, Ralph Mowery   >Main concern in most cases is that a true neutral wire and there is >ground wire, or are they cheating and using the ground wire for the >neutral ? Well, I assumed they were using a real neutral. In my neighbor's well house there is a real neutral. I know this because I have had to do work on his pumps. Eric

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 08:58AM -0800 On Mon, 24 Feb 2020 10:05:18 -0800 (PST), "pfjw@aol.com" >One single-pole breaker to receptacle(s).   >Peter Wieck >Melrose Park, PA So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house and then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, right? The breaker in the house is to protect the 10 gauge wire running to the pump house, the other breakers to protect the pump itself and the lighting circuit. Eric

three_jeeps <jjhudak@gmail.com>: Feb 26 09:00AM -0800 > correct way. > Thanks, > Eric   absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel J

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 10:02AM -0800 On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 09:00:57 -0800 (PST), three_jeeps >> Eric   >absolutely need a breaker on the 120vac leg. I am rusty on my NEC knowledge but, I would put a distribution panel in the pumphouse. I am assuming that the 240 feed from the house is split before the house distribution panel >J I don't know what you mean, split before the house distribution panel. The pump now is fed from the main breaker panel in the house. It is on its own breaker. When the pump house is done I will install a sub panel in it to distribute power to the pump and to lights and to a 120 volt receptacle. Eric

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 26 10:10AM -0800 If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).   If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.   Good luck with it!

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 10:52AM -0800 On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:10:57 -0800 (PST), "pfjw@aol.com"   >If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).   >If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.   >Good luck with it! Yeah, I have 4 wires. I planned ahead when I first wired the pump. I am not always so organized. Eric

Tom Biasi <tombiasi@optonline.net>: Feb 26 08:26PM -0500 > If you have 10 gauge, 4-conductor wiring to the pump-house, you are fine doing as you plan. That would be 1-Hot 2-Neutral 3-hot 4-ground into the sub-panel. Then, a double-pole breaker to the pump for 240 Volts, and single pole breakers to light(s) and receptacle(s).   > If you do not have an existing separate ground coming from the house, you will need to add a ground rod in the pump-house to ground the sub-panel. And it is still bad practice to use the feeder ground as a neutral - even though they are (should be) bonded in your main house panel. However, this used to happen all the time with heavy appliances being fed with SE Cable such as stoves and dryers, even though they had both 240 and 120 volt-functions on-board.   > Good luck with it!   A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They need to be separate.

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 26 09:19PM -0600 On 2/26/20 7:26 PM, Tom Biasi wrote: >> sub-panel.   > A sub panel should not have the neutral and earth ground bonded. They > need to be separate.   Absolutely. The ONLY place the Neutral should be connected to ground is a the service panel (the one with the Meter).     -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

Jeff Urban <jurb6006@gmail.com>: Feb 26 10:44PM -0800 >So I use a breaker in the house main panel to feed the well house >and then use another breaker for the pump and one for the lights, >right?   You do not need another breaker for the pump if the one in the house is properly rated. However for lights and outlets you do.   A 240V breaker is a tandem which means when one side overloads both trip. They are mechanically coupled to achieve that.   There is a five move rule, you have to be able to shut down the whole building in five moves. So you'll have two, one for lights one for outlets. IF there is a box it has to be, however if it is ONLY the pump then don't even worry about it. I am unsure though if the one breaker in the house qualifies as a one move shutdown, is should but the code can be weird, you put a box in there and you got more rules. So if you have another breaker out there that is one move. Outlets a move, lights a move. If for any reason you have to add more circuits out there then all you get is five unless there is another main out there, which I think is unnecessary.   What would you add ? A pool pump ? Those are mostly 240V but with the tandem breaker that is only one move.   One of the houses I put a panel in I retained the original FPE box and used what used to go to fuses, a 50 amp, to the main lugs of the sub panel. The backyard where the meter was was all overgrown with trees and weeds, trees that used to be weeds and just forget it. So then some yahoo comes in and mumbles something about code and eliminates the original FPE box. Now it is like 12 moves to shut down the building, THAT is against code. I washed my hands of it. I would have put the main kit on the box, GEs have that option, but of course he didn't bother with that. Once someone does that I am absolved when the house burns down and guess what...   The same guy saw my furnace which was installed sideways, which is code and it was a furnace made for it. (it must, the flame arrestor is configured differently) It was nice because there was a huige return oh the first floor right into the intake so I put the filter so they could change it without going in the basement. Hey the guy was getting old.   The reason for the after the fact ranys is to watch who you listen to when it comes to code. Evne if they show you the book, there are sections. Like this driveway here, I wasn't here for that but the guy cheated, put the new driveway about 1-2" higher than the original. They of course guarantee it not to crack but didn't want to do the digging. If someone bitched he would have sid it is code, but that is bullshit. Tell him to show you the book and he'll open the pages on footers and foundations, which ARE regulated. Ask "Then how the hell can I have a cement basement floor ?".   For any of this shit go to a union hall and hang around a little. Catch them walking out, if they are there early in the afternoon they are probably looking for work. Most have a problem with residential here on 38 unless it is a new install of something. But some will do it. here, they got stickers and if they put their sticker on the job the inspector doesn't even look. He knows it is right. There is a unique number for each journeyman and if shit happens it falls on them. You might pay over $200 a day but you can pay some asshole that much who doesn't know jack shit and endangers you.   Your call.   If you have the breaker in the house, you can use an old junk fusebox as long as you're only pulling 120v. However use that house ground, do not put another ground in and if you do not have a house ground out there and you do pound one in do not tie it to the neutral.   Also if you put a breaker out there for the pump it will have to be a GFCI. The one in the house is grandfathered in.

All Bumbed Up <allbummedup@cao.net>: Feb 26 05:48PM -0500 On 2/25/20 3:03 PM, Ron D. wrote: > Target 3001 https://server.ibfriedrich.com/wiki/ibfwikien/index.php/Reverse_Engineering has a facility that can help.   > You start with an image of the board, Then add components to another layer and connect the components. The schematic then comes out as "rats nest" that you have to sort out.   Thanks, downloaded and tried it out today, but ran into a couple of hitches. I was trying to use the instructions shown at the above link:   1) I refer to step 4, import packages. It says to place it on the layout, which I did, but does not indicate how to release it there so it stays put. How is this done? Tried double clicking, etc but to no avail.   2) I was trying to place a 555 timer. It was only about half the size of the image underneath. Which can I reduce/ enlarge and how?   That's it for now. If remedied, I can then try proceeding forward to the next steps. I am using a simple, single sided board with less than 30 components, which are mostly resistors, capacitors and diodes.   Thanks in advance!

All Bumbed Up <allbummedup@cao.net>: Feb 26 08:25PM -0500 On 2/26/20 5:48 PM, All Bumbed Up wrote:   > 1) I refer to step 4, import packages.  It says to place it on the > layout, which I did, but does not indicate how to release it there so it > stays put.  How is this done?  Tried double clicking, etc but to no avail.   Alright, have to press the ESC key. Got it.     > 2) I was trying to place a 555 timer.  It was only about half the size > of the image underneath.  Which can I reduce/ enlarge and how?   Still not sure about this one.   > the next steps.  I am using a simple, single sided board with less than > 30 components, which are mostly resistors, capacitors and diodes.   > Thanks in advance!   One other thing I'm running across. Not all components on the circuit board can be readily identified. There is a flyback, for example, that doesn't show up anywhere in data as well as what looks like a small torodial transformer would with input and output turns. How can I go about adding these unknowns?

bruce2bowser@gmail.com: Feb 26 11:55AM -0800 -- https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7680145/Electricity-substation-worker-narrowly-avoids-electrocution-shocking-video.html

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Feb 26 03:08PM -0800 bruce2...@gmail.com wrote:   -----------------------------   ** Stale news pal.   Saw that video a couple of years ago.

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 09:05AM -0800 Since my post asking about well pump house wiring I went to several neighbor's places to look at their pump house wiring. They ALL have the lights connected to 1/2 of the 240 supply to the pump. NONE have breakers for the light(s). My feeling is that when the wells were first drilled and the pump lowered that was as far as the well driller went. Building the pump house and wiring it up were left to the homeowner. Just as in my case. I ran the power to my pump. When the electrical inspection was done the inspector did not look at the pump wiring. Didn't even ask about it. I'm putting a sub panel in my pump house. Eric

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 26 09:43AM -0800 I'm putting a sub panel in my pump house.   Wise man.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

etpm@whidbey.com: Feb 26 10:09AM -0800 On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 10:55:18 -0700, KenW   >That breaker protects BOTH sides of the feed so the lights DO NOT need >their own breaker.   >KenW I don't understand this. The lights are on lighter gauge wire than the pump, 14 gauge for lights and 10 gauge for the pump. Will the breaker sized for the pump and its wiring also protect the lighter gauge wiring? What am I missing? I know that the 240 volt breaker is two ganged breakers and if one trips it also trips the other one. But the pump is on 30 amp breakers and the lights should be on 15 amp, right? Eric

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 26 10:49AM -0800 Because Ken gave you wretched advice. Now, let's look at this two ways:   What is the right way:   a) 4-conductor,10-gauge or better from the Main Panel to the pump house, fused at the main by a 30 Amp double-pole breaker. b) In a four-position 240 Volt sub-panel, one double-pole breaker at 20 Amps to the pump, using 12-gauge or better wire. IF the pump is designed for 240 Volts, and has no internal 120 Volt functions, then the wire to the pump may be 3-conductor wire, that is hot/hot/ground. Such systems are not designed to require a neutral. IF there are 120 Volt functions within the pump, you MUST use 4-conductor wire by code, being Hot/Neutral/Hot/Ground. Your pump instructions will have all this information. c) One single-pole breaker to lighting - and there is no reason not to make this a 20 amp breaker feeding 12-gauge wire. d) One single-pole breaker to the receptacle(s) - as above.   Ideally you will install a WR-rated GFIC as a receptacle. You may consider installing a GFIC breaker for the lighting as well. When it comes to power in damp locations, belt-suspenders-Velcro is the way to go with safety in mind. NOTE 1: WR-rated GFIC devices have a short life - I have never had one last even five years. You do test them regularly, I hope? But they are well worth that cost for safety.   NOTE 2: Well pumps have, or should have an EQUIPMENT GROUND CONDUCTOR (EGC). And this is why they do not require (and should not be on) a GFIC device as you _WILL_ get false trips using one.   The wrong way - expect the one double-pole breaker to protect everything. In my experience, under ideal conditions, properly maintained, and so forth, this will be fine 90% of the time. It is that niggling 10% that should be bothering you.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

KenW <ken1943@invalid.net>: Feb 26 10:55AM -0700 >wiring. Didn't even ask about it. I'm putting a sub panel in my pump >house. >Eric   That breaker protects BOTH sides of the feed so the lights DO NOT need their own breaker.     KenW

Nife Sima <gorplop@sdf.org>: Feb 26 05:51PM +0100 > Thanks Wieck, for your insight. Optical sensors are clean, and no error code reported. Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   If you get a Tray 2 jam error, and theres no paper jam, then the paper jam sensors are faulty. Check these again with a multimeter if they are mechanical, and clean the optical ones out throughly as Peter Wieck said   -- Nife Sima - the lower earth crust

three_jeeps <jjhudak@gmail.com>: Feb 26 08:54AM -0800 > Thanks Wieck, for your insight. Optical sensors are clean, and no error code reported. Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   not sure how to parse the last sentence. Is there a period missing? >Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error. Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   If parsed this way, seems that cpu is confused about status/state of paper trays.....so check the tray sensors. A HP service manual would be very helpful....do you have one?

three_jeeps <jjhudak@gmail.com>: Feb 26 08:56AM -0800 On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 11:54:07 AM UTC-5, three_jeeps wrote: > >Though MP feed solenoid won't energize thus no paper pickup from MP tray with error. Tray 2 Jam error when print attempted with paper in Tray 1.   > If parsed this way, seems that cpu is confused about status/state of paper trays.....so check the tray sensors. > A HP service manual would be very helpful....do you have one?     forgot to add: you say solenoid checks fine on external source...did you check the solenoid signal path?..Signal present but not getting through?

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 09:04AM -0800 Yeah! Well. Do have the service manual. As for the signal path, any detailed advice on howto?

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 09:14AM -0800 I do have the service manual. As for the signal path, any detailed advice on howto? Thank you for your kind help.

reves.u@gmail.com: Feb 26 09:15AM -0800 Do have the service manual. As for the signal path, any detailed advice on howto? And thank you for your kind help.

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