sci.electronics.repair - 24 new messages in 15 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Power for US hub?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/ea97df224394d067?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 4:00 pm
From: whit3rd

On Dec 12, 7:33 am, Terry Pinnell <terrypi...@DELETEgmail.com> wrote:
> I've dusted off a 4-port USB hub I had lying but can't find whatever
> adapter it came with. What are the standard specs for USB 2.0

Well, it's 5V at 500 mA max on the USB pins; the
power adapter could be 5V, 5.1V, 6V, and anything (for
the max output power) from 2A to 2.5A (the hub could
need some internal power, but probably not much).

The various hubs use different input voltages because
the power-supply USB features are implemented in
several different ways.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Lithium Cells Exploding
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/181af8dd8c2e6fde?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 4:03 pm
From: Cydrome Leader

Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Dec 2010 00:52:03 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader wrote:
>>
>> since when does nasa care about stuff catching on fire or exploding, or
>> is there some sort of higher energy battery failure mode they prefer?
>
> Since, I suppose, it costs giga-shekels per deca-stone to throw crap
> into orbit, it seems obvious they would not want to imperil the results.
>
> Then there was: http://history.nasa.gov/Apollo204/

How would engineers and scientists have known that pure oxygen +
flammables could result in a fire?

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 4:34 pm
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> How would engineers and scientists have known that
> pure oxygen + flammables could result in a fire?

They assumed the third side of the fire triangle -- an ignition source --
would never be present.

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: leaving conductors exposed
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/424fa524bd8577b8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 4:56 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"mike"
>
> Ok, but how did it make it past the "fire hazard" category.

** The design of the transformer prevents any fire or electrocution hazard.

> It's surely a source of ignition when you knock it over onto
> a pair of scissors on the desk.

** Shorting the secondary winding is one of the tests carried out when
certifying a transformer as "class 2" or double insulated. The unit must not
overheat or burn to the extent that primary and secondary circuits can
become fused.

Most often this is achieved by adding a thermal fuse to the primary circuit
that will open if the winding temp reaches a point that could damage the
insulation used to make the tranny - about 120C in most examples.

Some older designs used fireproof insulation between the primary and
secondary and the winding were contained on separate halves of a plastic
bobbin. Such a tranny could smoke and burn but still not present an
electrocution hazard.

.... Phil

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 5:07 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Cydrome Leader"
>>
>> my question is can you have the double insulated symbol on a product
>> with exposed 20V AC conductors?
>
> that's if you believe the markings on the product in the first place.

** The double square symbol is one that any maker can simply apply
themselves - in most places no lab testing would be involved. It is on the
maker's head if the product does not comply with all class 2 safety rules
and is unsafe.

In this case however, the presence of a "one shot " thermal fuse in the
primary winding of the AC tranny will do the job ALONG with split bobbin
construction.

.... Phil

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 7:51 pm
From: mike

Phil Allison wrote:
> "mike"
>> Ok, but how did it make it past the "fire hazard" category.
>
> ** The design of the transformer prevents any fire or electrocution hazard.
>
>
>> It's surely a source of ignition when you knock it over onto
>> a pair of scissors on the desk.
>
> ** Shorting the secondary winding is one of the tests carried out when
> certifying a transformer as "class 2" or double insulated. The unit must not
> overheat or burn to the extent that primary and secondary circuits can
> become fused.
>
> Most often this is achieved by adding a thermal fuse to the primary circuit
> that will open if the winding temp reaches a point that could damage the
> insulation used to make the tranny - about 120C in most examples.
>
> Some older designs used fireproof insulation between the primary and
> secondary and the winding were contained on separate halves of a plastic
> bobbin. Such a tranny could smoke and burn but still not present an
> electrocution hazard.
>
>
> .... Phil
>
>
Ok, but what about the spark that happens when you knock it over
while refilling your butane torch? Or when you just cleaned a part
with alcohol. Dumb design!!!
Safety design is a LOT more than just the obvious.
There'd be a lot fewer houses burned to the ground if only engineers
thought more about how their products are used and the hazards
caused by confluence of circumstance.
Did I mention...DUMB DESIGN!!

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 8:02 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

mike wrote:
>
> Phil Allison wrote:
> > "mike"
> >> Ok, but how did it make it past the "fire hazard" category.
> >
> > ** The design of the transformer prevents any fire or electrocution hazard.
> >
> >
> >> It's surely a source of ignition when you knock it over onto
> >> a pair of scissors on the desk.
> >
> > ** Shorting the secondary winding is one of the tests carried out when
> > certifying a transformer as "class 2" or double insulated. The unit must not
> > overheat or burn to the extent that primary and secondary circuits can
> > become fused.
> >
> > Most often this is achieved by adding a thermal fuse to the primary circuit
> > that will open if the winding temp reaches a point that could damage the
> > insulation used to make the tranny - about 120C in most examples.
> >
> > Some older designs used fireproof insulation between the primary and
> > secondary and the winding were contained on separate halves of a plastic
> > bobbin. Such a tranny could smoke and burn but still not present an
> > electrocution hazard.
> >
> >
> > .... Phil
> >
> >
> Ok, but what about the spark that happens when you knock it over
> while refilling your butane torch? Or when you just cleaned a part
> with alcohol. Dumb design!!!
> Safety design is a LOT more than just the obvious.
> There'd be a lot fewer houses burned to the ground if only engineers
> thought more about how their products are used and the hazards
> caused by confluence of circumstance.
> Did I mention...DUMB DESIGN!!

I nominate you for a Darwin Award. The timing is up to you.

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 8:16 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"mike"

> Safety design is a LOT more than just the obvious.
> There'd be a lot fewer houses burned to the ground if only engineers
> thought more about how their products are used and the hazards
> caused by confluence of circumstance.
> Did I mention...DUMB DESIGN!!

** Never put a 9 volt alkaline battery in the same pocket as your keys.....

.... Phil

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 10:59 pm
From: mike

Phil Allison wrote:
> "mike"
>
>> Safety design is a LOT more than just the obvious.
>> There'd be a lot fewer houses burned to the ground if only engineers
>> thought more about how their products are used and the hazards
>> caused by confluence of circumstance.
>> Did I mention...DUMB DESIGN!!
>
>
> ** Never put a 9 volt alkaline battery in the same pocket as your keys.....
>
>
>
> .... Phil
>
>
At least don't fart if you do.

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TOPIC: tv receivers have puny sound
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/5d73f7ad8fcea692?hl=en
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== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 5:13 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Charles wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
> news:jvKdnbqdBLDneZnQnZ2dnUVZ_judnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> Charles wrote:
> >
> > This is not a repair question, but I got flamed on the design forum and
> > thought that I'd try here. I was labeled a kook and a troll and ... Boy,
> > does that group have bunched up underwear!
> >
> > I have three LCD tvs that work well, but the audio is thin. I know about
> > amps and external speakers and surround sound and all of that. Please
> > don't
> > recommend external devices, as that is NOT what this post is about.
> >
> > Is there a technology to build decent speakers into these skinny tv
> > receivers? The industry has come up with 3-D, dynamic LED backlighting,
> > and
> > other nice features ... but no decent STAND ALONE SOUND.
> >
> > There is a significant market for flat-panel tvs with decent stand-alone
> > sound. Any ideas?
>
> Yes. You don't have a clue about designing electronics.
>
> Nor do you.

Bullshit. My work is in orbit.

You taught. I did.

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 5:15 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Charles wrote:
>
> "William Sommerwerck" wrote in message
> news:ie3nhf$11g$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> >> Yes. You don't have a clue about designing electronics.
>
> > Nor do you.
>
> Mr Terrell is a pretty bright guy. If I needed a super-duper electronics
> technician, he's be on my short list.
>
> His demeanor sucks.

Luke 6:42: Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother, let me
pull out the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not
the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast out first the
beam out of thine own eye, and then shalt thou see clearly to pull out
the mote that is in thy brother's eye.

--
For the last time: I am not a mad scientist, I'm just a very ticked off
scientist!!!

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TOPIC: HP Pavillion disk read failure
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/69cf1664455bf171?hl=en
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== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 10:14 pm
From: stratus46@yahoo.com

On Dec 12, 2:35 pm, D Yuniskis <not.going.to...@seen.com> wrote:
> root wrote:
> > I picked up and HP Pavillion which is just over
> > one year old. The guy who sold it said it just
> > needed an new hard disk. Not true. I put a
> > new drive in it and installed my OS. After an
> > hour or so the system couldn't read the disk.
> > I shut it down and what I think is the Southbridge
> > chip was very hot. It had a small passive heat
> > sink which I removed, cleaned the surfaces, and
> > put on fresh conductive paste. I also affixed
> > a small fan to the heat sink. After this I was
> > able to run the machine for three or four hours
> > before the same disk read failures started.
>
> > I replaced the power supply with one known
> > to be good and the problems came back after
> > three hours or so of operation.
>
> > Just now I removed the CPU heat sink/fan and
> > renewed the heat sink compound. The CPU was
> > at room temperature, so I don't think this
> > is the problem.
>
> > None of the other components on the motherboard
> > is even warm to the touch. Even the disk drive
> > was at room temperature.
>
> > I can't think of anything other than heat that
> > would explain the problem, but then I don't
> > see how the machine could run for several hours
> > and without overheating.
>
> > Any ideas?
>
> Any time you see wonky behavior from a PC, check
> for bad caps. Around the processor is a prime
> area of concern (ripple currents can be tens of
> amps, easily, so ESR becomes a big issue).
>
> You can also check *inside* the power supply for
> similar problems.
>
> I started a list of (cap and PC) manufacturers that
> I have encountered this problem and gave up as it
> became too long to track effectively (some I
> just recognize instinctively, now).
>
> Note what the machine is doing at the time (idle vs.
> working hard, etc.).
>
> Cold spray (whatever form of politically/legally correct
> "freon" is en vogue) can help if you suspect a solid
> state device.
>
> The components with heat sinks are probably *expected*
> to run warm -- don't be surprised if they *do*! :>
>
> Does a quick cycling of power (completely removed before
> being restored) give you another "3 hours" of use? Or,
> does the problem come back "quickly" (i.e., if it
> is thermal, it should come back quickly; if it is a
> software problem, it could take 3 more hours for a
> memory leak, etc. to manifest)

Agreed on caps as I replace lots of them. Thing is, bad caps usually
work better (less bad) when warmed up. I just tossed the Samsung DLP
set because of a thermal problem. Nearly all the caps were new and the
few that remained tested good. It too would run several hours before
quitting.

G²

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 10:45 pm
From: D Yuniskis

stratus46@yahoo.com wrote:
>> Does a quick cycling of power (completely removed before
>> being restored) give you another "3 hours" of use? Or,
>> does the problem come back "quickly" (i.e., if it
>> is thermal, it should come back quickly; if it is a
>> software problem, it could take 3 more hours for a
>> memory leak, etc. to manifest)
>
> Agreed on caps as I replace lots of them. Thing is, bad caps usually
> work better (less bad) when warmed up. I just tossed the Samsung DLP
> set because of a thermal problem. Nearly all the caps were new and the
> few that remained tested good. It too would run several hours before
> quitting.

Note that I asked for an assessment of what the circumstances
leading up to -- and subsequent to -- the crash. I.e., it may
not be "heat" but, rather, *what* the machine was doing (and had
*been* doing) prior to the crash.

I've had machines that wouldn't handle a "fresh install"
but would run fine if you installed a prebuilt disk in them.
Other machines ran fine until *lots* of memory was needed.
etc.

Blindly chasing heat (or caps or ... ) without a handle
on a *reproducible* crash scenario is just futility...

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sun, Dec 12 2010 11:39 pm
From: root

I'm sorry, I didn't see the stratus post:

D Yuniskis <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
> stratus46@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> Does a quick cycling of power (completely removed before
>>> being restored) give you another "3 hours" of use? Or,
>>> does the problem come back "quickly" (i.e., if it
>>> is thermal, it should come back quickly; if it is a
>>> software problem, it could take 3 more hours for a
>>> memory leak, etc. to manifest)
>>

No, quick power cycle gives nothing. The system won't
boot up at all. After a few minutes of OFF, the system
will run a few minutes. The first failure followed
a fresh install. I took a nap and came back after
a couple of hours and the system wouldn't read the
disk. Subsequent failures happened during attempts
to copy several tens of Gb of files from a backup
disk to the fresh install. After a couple of hours
(or more) the copies would result in i/o error and
then the system was dead.

>> Agreed on caps as I replace lots of them. Thing is, bad caps usually
>> work better (less bad) when warmed up. I just tossed the Samsung DLP
>> set because of a thermal problem. Nearly all the caps were new and the
>> few that remained tested good. It too would run several hours before
>> quitting.
>
> Note that I asked for an assessment of what the circumstances
> leading up to -- and subsequent to -- the crash. I.e., it may
> not be "heat" but, rather, *what* the machine was doing (and had
> *been* doing) prior to the crash.
>

I hope I have answered your question.

> I've had machines that wouldn't handle a "fresh install"
> but would run fine if you installed a prebuilt disk in them.
> Other machines ran fine until *lots* of memory was needed.
> etc.
>
> Blindly chasing heat (or caps or ... ) without a handle
> on a *reproducible* crash scenario is just futility...

The machine is only one year old. All the caps look
brand new, not a bulge among them. I've run into
a failure of a bridge chip before with almost
identical symptoms, although the older bridge chip
shut down much faster than this one. In the case
of the older bridge chip, the heat sink was held
in place by double sided sticky tape. After a while
the tape degraded and the heat sink wasn't firmly
attached to the chip.

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