sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 6 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair?hl=en

sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Basic questions about telecommunications - 7 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/86ac7da2cbac660c?hl=en
* dell optiplex power supply - 6 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e0b329d22c943693?hl=en
* HOT ACTRESS - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/c6b89686c1fc67d3?hl=en
* Heathkit ETI-7040 Manual Wanted Universal Counter 175 MHz - 8 messages, 5
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/68f783e836097763?hl=en
* Repair of Kaon satellite/terrestrial receiver - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/81d030413198eb43?hl=en
* WTB Operating manual for Panasonic Talking Clock Radio #RC6900 - 2 messages,
2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/618285c775756d4e?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Basic questions about telecommunications
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/86ac7da2cbac660c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 12:17 am
From: David Nebenzahl

On 1/1/2011 12:11 AM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:

> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 23:10:51 -0800, David Nebenzahl
> <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>
>> On 12/31/2010 10:54 PM John Tserkezis spake thus:
>>
>>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>>
>>>> http://s786.photobucket.com/albums/yy147/bonezphoto/?action=view&current=Linespeed44-59.gif
>
>> Phew. Finally; yes, that's what I'm talking about, the "little"
>> fluctuations (between ~4K and ~5K in that second snapshot).
>
> Methinks you're looking at the effects of roundoff error. There are
> not enough packets used for the download test, so the graph is
> rounding off the result to the nearest convenient significant figure.
> A running average, with larger time slices, would yield a much
> smoother and more realistic curve.

But as I watch the display during a download, I can see the rate *very
regularly* alternating between two definite speeds (like 4.4 and 5.9 K).
As you can see, the pattern is visible, at least according to this
display. Doesn't that tell us something about how the transfer is taking
place? Or is this just a regularly repeating roundoff error?

In fact, I can tell when the transfer rate is faster or slower, based on
the display: it'll bounce between the same two speeds--that never
changes--but the "flats" on the upper part of the line will be longer,
meaning it's spending more time at the faster speed. The difference is
actually noticeable, in the time it takes to render web pages and such.

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 12:00 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 16:34:24 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

> OK, this question is totally out of idle curiosity. No customers' jobs
> depend on it. No actual electronic repair issues are involved.
>
> Like a surprising number of people, I still have dial-up Internet
> access. (Yeah, I know, I'm living in the Stone Age.) So I'm quite
> familiar with various connections speeds. I also can observe my network
> traffic on my firewall's control panel (I use Sygate, a freebie, which
> I'm quite happy with).
>
> What I don't understand is why network traffic, at least as reported by
> Sygate, is so choppy. On a good day, I get a "fast" connection, meaning
> 48 kbps, or maybe even (gasp!) 49.2; that's the fastest speed I ever
> get.

LOL

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 4:19 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 00:17:13 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

>On 1/1/2011 12:11 AM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:
>
>> On Fri, 31 Dec 2010 23:10:51 -0800, David Nebenzahl
>> <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/31/2010 10:54 PM John Tserkezis spake thus:
>>>
>>>> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> http://s786.photobucket.com/albums/yy147/bonezphoto/?action=view&current=Linespeed44-59.gif
>>
>>> Phew. Finally; yes, that's what I'm talking about, the "little"
>>> fluctuations (between ~4K and ~5K in that second snapshot).
>>
>> Methinks you're looking at the effects of roundoff error. There are
>> not enough packets used for the download test, so the graph is
>> rounding off the result to the nearest convenient significant figure.
>> A running average, with larger time slices, would yield a much
>> smoother and more realistic curve.

>But as I watch the display during a download, I can see the rate *very
>regularly* alternating between two definite speeds (like 4.4 and 5.9 K).

Toss a coin. From the pattern of heads and tails, I can see a very
regular pattern of randomly alternating heads and tails. OK, bad
analogy, but I thought it was cute. It might be doing 5.75Kbits/sec
and alternately rounding off to the nearest convenient value. Most
speed test software these daze is made for DSL or cable modem speeds.
They use fairly short sampling times, because with the higher speeds,
it's a fair assumption that there will be a sufficient number of bytes
downloaded to get a reasonable value. However, the same software at
dialup speeds is going to see far fewer bytes of traffic, and
therefore generate a more granular result.

>As you can see, the pattern is visible, at least according to this
>display. Doesn't that tell us something about how the transfer is taking
>place? Or is this just a regularly repeating roundoff error?

I think this would be a good time for you to disclose how you're
running this test and what hardware, OS, and software you're using. I
don't like guessing (even though I do it quite often).

>In fact, I can tell when the transfer rate is faster or slower, based on
>the display: it'll bounce between the same two speeds--that never
>changes--but the "flats" on the upper part of the line will be longer,
>meaning it's spending more time at the faster speed. The difference is
>actually noticeable, in the time it takes to render web pages and such.

It really depends on what your mystery application is doing and how
large or long a sample it takes. If the sample is too short, you'll
get roundoff error. Looking at your usenet news header,
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (Windows/20070604)
it appears that you're using an older copy of Windoze, possibly Win98,
and a 3.5 year old out of date copy of Thunderbird. Therefore, I
won't suggest you use the XP performance monitor to get a better
picture.

Incidentally, if you want to do useful performance measuring, with
clues as to what's going on behind the magic curtain, I suggest you
look at IPerf and JPerf.
<http://openmaniak.com/iperf.php>
<http://code.google.com/p/xjperf/>
You may have to update your version of Windoze and Java in order for
it to run properly. You'll find a few IPerf servers available on the
internet, but they're usually reserved for specific users in order to
avoid overload.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 6:13 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 1/1/2011 4:19 PM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:

> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 00:17:13 -0800, David Nebenzahl
> <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>
>> As you can see, the pattern is visible, at least according to this
>> display. Doesn't that tell us something about how the transfer is
>> taking place? Or is this just a regularly repeating roundoff error?
>
> I think this would be a good time for you to disclose how you're
> running this test and what hardware, OS, and software you're using.
> I don't like guessing (even though I do it quite often).

OK: Win2K SP 4; computer is (reading from the Windoze "System
Properties" dialog here as I can't remember the exact MB brand): "x86
Family 6 model 8" (Pentium IV???), running at, I believe, 700-something
MHz, 786 MB RAM. Yeah, not enough RAM, not very fast clock speed by
modren standards, but sheesh, should be able to keep up with a lousy 56K
modem even running full blast, dontcha think?

Test application is Firefox, which is recent (not that it should matter,
right?): v3.6.8. The latest line-speed display I uploaded was while
downloading a PDF of a few megabytes.

Anything else you want to know? Can't tell you the model mfgr., except
that it's a cheapie I got at the local computer guy's store. Nothing
else fancy; no VPNs, PC-Anywhere, proxies, etc., etc.

>> In fact, I can tell when the transfer rate is faster or slower,
>> based on the display: it'll bounce between the same two
>> speeds--that never changes--but the "flats" on the upper part of
>> the line will be longer, meaning it's spending more time at the
>> faster speed. The difference is actually noticeable, in the time it
>> takes to render web pages and such.
>
> Incidentally, if you want to do useful performance measuring, with
> clues as to what's going on behind the magic curtain, I suggest you
> look at IPerf and JPerf.
> <http://openmaniak.com/iperf.php>
> <http://code.google.com/p/xjperf/>
> You may have to update your version of Windoze and Java in order for
> it to run properly. You'll find a few IPerf servers available on the
> internet, but they're usually reserved for specific users in order to
> avoid overload.

Thanks, I'll look into those.

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 7:25 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 18:13:15 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

>OK: Win2K SP 4; computer is (reading from the Windoze "System
>Properties" dialog here as I can't remember the exact MB brand): "x86
>Family 6 model 8" (Pentium IV???), running at, I believe, 700-something
>MHz, 786 MB RAM. Yeah, not enough RAM,

768MB RAM is good enough for W2K. Of course, more would be better.

Family 6 Model 8 is a Pentium III mobile. 700Mhz sounds about right
but is rather slow. Any of the later PIII (non-M) Tualatin series
processors, that fit the socket, should work to give you a cheap speed
boost. Clock speeds to 1.33GHz.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Pentium_III_microprocessors>

Partial list of processors:
Processor name Processor type
Intel Celeron Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 5
Intel Celeron Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 6
Intel Mobile Pentium III Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 8
Intel Pentium II Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 3
Intel Pentium II Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 5
Intel Pentium II Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 6
Intel Pentium III Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 7
Intel Pentium Pro Intel, x86 Family 6 Model 1
This will work on PIII and older motherboards, but will fail with
Core2Duo and other multicore processors:
<http://www.intel.com/support/processors/tools/frequencyid/sb/CS-007623.htm>

>not very fast clock speed by
>modren standards, but sheesh, should be able to keep up with a lousy 56K
>modem even running full blast, dontcha think?

Sure. It can keep up with the modem, but perhaps not with the tons of
utilities, applications, drivers, and junk that are all running at the
same time. You'll lose a few clock cycles here and there. It won't
have much of an effect on download speed, but it *MIGHT* have an
effect on the consistency of any diagnostics running on top of the
download. If your modem happens to be a "softmodem" where all the
action ocurrs in software, then it will be even more sensitive to
unrelated activity.

>Test application is Firefox, which is recent (not that it should matter,
>right?): v3.6.8. The latest line-speed display I uploaded was while
>downloading a PDF of a few megabytes.

The current version of Firefox is 3.6.13. To the best of my limited
knowledge, it does NOT have a built in download speed feature. You're
probably using a plugin or add-on, which was downloaded and installed.
Look under:
Tools -> Add-ons -> Extensions
for the name of the mystery performance monitoring application.

>Anything else you want to know?

Nope. Just the name of the Firefox add-on. You supplied everything
else.

>Can't tell you the model mfgr., except
>that it's a cheapie I got at the local computer guy's store. Nothing
>else fancy; no VPNs, PC-Anywhere, proxies, etc., etc.

Good point. I should have asked if you had any resident applications
that might interfere with the download, such as network shims, spyware
scanners, net proxy servers, Zone Alarm, or download managers.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 8:50 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 1/1/2011 7:25 PM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:

> On Sat, 01 Jan 2011 18:13:15 -0800, David Nebenzahl
> <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:
>
>> Anything else you want to know?
>
> Nope. Just the name of the Firefox add-on. You supplied everything
> else.

What Firefox add-on? Didn't you read through the thread? The speed
reporting is from my firewall, Sygate Personal Firewall.

I just went to find their website and was dismayed to find out they've
been bought out by Norton (ugh): http://us.norton.com/sygate

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 8:56 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 1/1/2011 4:19 PM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:

> Incidentally, if you want to do useful performance measuring, with
> clues as to what's going on behind the magic curtain, I suggest you
> look at IPerf and JPerf.
> <http://openmaniak.com/iperf.php>
> <http://code.google.com/p/xjperf/>

Regarding that: I looked at the first site and am intrigued, but don't
understand something. I see you need a host and client to make this
work, which makes sense, and as you point out you might (or might not)
be able to use someone else's web-based host; but if not, what then? Can
you somehow set up both host and client on your computah and have the
packets make a "round trip"? (Although that would be a problem since I
notice my upload speeds are a lot slower than download.) How would I use
this to test my dial-up connection?

Also, do I want to test using TCP, UDP or both? Which are used when I
talk to my ISP?

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: dell optiplex power supply
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e0b329d22c943693?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 6:53 am
From: n8ball

Hello!

I have a problem with my Optiplex 745 power supply, model H275P-01.

I printed out the ATX 24 pin pinout and whats odd is when I short the
pins to turn the unit on, its turns on ok.

I read the voltages out and I get what is in spec when not plugged
in...

However, WHEN i plug in just the ATX aux 4 pin connector (for the chip
extra power) the power supply works fine, but when I plug in the main
24 pin connector it stops....

My questions:

Do you think the power supply needs recap or the motherboard is at
fault here?

I opened the power supply but didn't see any leaky caps...

I thought it would be more obvious which caps are bad but it looks
like i might just have to recap the whole supply!

What would cause the power supply to run fine when not plugged in, and
give the right volts out, but not work when plugged in?

I assume its some bad caps in the supply itself but thought I would
ask on here to see if any one has dealt with somethig like this before.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 8:00 am
From: Jeroni Paul

On 1 ene, 15:53, n8ball <natere2s...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I have a problem with my Optiplex 745 power supply, model H275P-01.
>
> I printed out the ATX 24 pin pinout and whats odd is when I short the
> pins to turn the unit on, its turns on ok.
>
> I read the voltages out and I get what is in spec when not plugged
> in...
>
> However, WHEN i plug in just the ATX aux 4 pin connector (for the chip
> extra power) the power supply works fine, but when I plug in the main
> 24 pin connector it stops....
>
> My questions:
>
> Do you think the power supply needs recap or the motherboard is at
> fault here?
>
> I opened the power supply but didn't see any leaky caps...
>
> I thought it would be more obvious which caps are bad but it looks
> like i might just have to recap the whole supply!
>
> What would cause the power supply to run fine when not plugged in, and
> give the right volts out, but not work when plugged in?
>
> I assume its some bad caps in the supply itself but thought I would
> ask on here to see if any one has dealt with somethig like this before.

You could have a short in your motherboard or add-on cards. When an
output is shorted most power supplies will refuse to start. You can
test with another power supply or another PC to determine where is the
fault.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 11:11 am
From: mike

n8ball wrote:
> Hello!
>
> I have a problem with my Optiplex 745 power supply, model H275P-01.
>
> I printed out the ATX 24 pin pinout and whats odd is when I short the
> pins to turn the unit on, its turns on ok.
>
> I read the voltages out and I get what is in spec when not plugged
> in...
>
> However, WHEN i plug in just the ATX aux 4 pin connector (for the chip
> extra power) the power supply works fine, but when I plug in the main
> 24 pin connector it stops....
>
> My questions:
>
> Do you think the power supply needs recap or the motherboard is at
> fault here?
>
> I opened the power supply but didn't see any leaky caps...
>
> I thought it would be more obvious which caps are bad but it looks
> like i might just have to recap the whole supply!
>
> What would cause the power supply to run fine when not plugged in, and
> give the right volts out, but not work when plugged in?
>
> I assume its some bad caps in the supply itself but thought I would
> ask on here to see if any one has dealt with somethig like this before.
I don't know if it's safe to short the turnon pins with it plugged in.
You could pull the wires to run the experiment.
I had an E-Machines motherboard that had a disconnect somewhere
between the front panel switch and the turnon pins on the power supply.
Bad news was that it still wouldn't boot with the power supply forced on.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 4:33 pm
From: n8ball

Hey Mike,

I agree.

I don't think its the power supply, why would it output all the
voltages correctly when not plugged in?

I think the short is maybe causing the current to be pulled over the
specs, so that causes the power supply to cut off (some sort of
protection circuit built into these things?).

I will unmount the mother board and unplug everything, plug it all
back up, and cross my fingers!

Thanks for the tip!

Cheers!

Nate

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 6:59 pm
From: n8ball

UPDATE

After screwing around inside the casing, i unmounted the motherboard
and then remounted it, not screwing anything but the HUGE cpu heat
sink back to the case...powers up though its still shorts against the
case some where...no idea but after enough fiddling i should be able
to isolate the short...

now to see how far i can get the unit to boot up (hopefully onto the
desktop!)

cheers!

nate

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 7:47 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Sat, 1 Jan 2011 06:53:23 -0800 (PST), n8ball
<natere2ster@gmail.com> wrote:

>I have a problem with my Optiplex 745 power supply, model H275P-01.

SFF style box and motherboard? The H275P-01 is the part number for
the SFF box.

I've seen bad capacitors on the motherboard in those. I don't recall
any problems with the power supplies.

The larger Optiplex 745 and 755 motherboards seem to last without
problems. No power supply problems that I've seen on either the 745
or 755. (The GX620 series is another story).

>I printed out the ATX 24 pin pinout and whats odd is when I short the
>pins to turn the unit on, its turns on ok.

Please invest in a cheapo ATX power supply tester. Some have loads
inside which are needed to properly test the power supply.
<http://shop.ebay.com/atx+power+supply+tester>

>However, WHEN i plug in just the ATX aux 4 pin connector (for the chip
>extra power) the power supply works fine, but when I plug in the main
>24 pin connector it stops....

Inconclusive. The biggest power load is the CPU. When you apply a
load to the power supply, it could be shutting down because the power
supply has a problem. Similarly, if the load is shorted, the power
supply could be protecting itself. I can't tell from here.

>I thought it would be more obvious which caps are bad but it looks
>like i might just have to recap the whole supply!

Many of the caps I have replaced show no indicatation of bulging or
leaking. Sometimes, it's nothing more than a slight tilt caused by a
slight bulge in the rubber plug on the bottom of the capacitor.

What does show a problem is an ESR capacitor meter.
<http://members.ozemail.com.au/~bobpar/esrmeter.htm>
Many more types available.

>What would cause the power supply to run fine when not plugged in, and
>give the right volts out, but not work when plugged in?

See my previous comment on the inability to distinguish between a
defective power supply, that craps out under load, from a shorted
motherboard.

>I assume its some bad caps in the supply itself but thought I would
>ask on here to see if any one has dealt with somethig like this before.

Nope or at least maybe. If the caps in the power supply were bad,
then my *GUESS* is that it also will not run without a load. Hard to
tell from here.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HOT ACTRESS
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/c6b89686c1fc67d3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 6:54 am
From: SRAVANTHI LOVE

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Heathkit ETI-7040 Manual Wanted Universal Counter 175 MHz
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/68f783e836097763?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 8:01 am
From: "Wild_Bill"

This model is a factory assembled model, and wasn't available as a kit,
AFAICT.

Dual counter A-B, single 8-digit LED display (7-segment LED green or red
digits).

Input A 5Hz-175MHz
Input B 5Hz-2MHz

The Input B doesn't show a count when a signal is applied.

The Input A section seems to operate as it should.

I've seen that the actual circuit section for Input B does have an output
signal which is connected to the main board at J103.
I can also see that the counter/display IC is getting good signals at the
correct pins.. input A and B, and control.

Some repairs were made by previous owner, it seems, such as replacement of
the original Frequency Counter/Timer display driver U20, with an ICM7226AIJL
(high reliability ceramic).

I first assumed that someone may have applied over-voltage(s) to the input
channels, and smoked the counter/display driver IC, but I've seen random
numbers displayed as I probed around the area of IC18 and the counter/driver
IC, which indicates that the unit can display readings for Input B (no
signal applied to Input A), but the displayed count is incorrect and
inconsistent.

An Intersil ICM7226A/B application/datasheet was included with the counter
unit, and found to be installed in the unit.

The ICM7226 is capable of 2 inputs A & B, and up to 100MHz as a
multi-function (frequency/period) counter and 8 digit display driver.

http://www.nostalgickitscentral.com/heath/products/heathkit_test.html

The the counter/driver IC, and a circuit IC U18 CD74HCT86E (quad 2-input
Exclusive-OR), and possibly one other support IC may have been replaced.

There was evidence of what appears to be probe-skid-type, or tool scratches
on the bottom of the board in the area of the input circuitry section of
Input A.

The majority of the ICs are Hitachi, and a couple are Motorola and RCA
devices.

A third BNC input connector located on the rear panel is labeled TOTALIZE.

Another aspect that I'm unsure of is one of the functions.. there is a
selection of FR as one of the unit's functions, and since there is already
one marked FREQ, I think FR represents something else.

The other functions are:

PER (period)

TI (time interval?)

TOTAL (totalize)

CHK (check display and indicators)

wb_wildbill-AT-yah-oh-oh.com

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 8:08 am
From: "N_Cook"

Wild_Bill <wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:udITo.323935$zE6.140986@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...
> This model is a factory assembled model, and wasn't available as a kit,
> AFAICT.
>
> Dual counter A-B, single 8-digit LED display (7-segment LED green or red
> digits).
>
> Input A 5Hz-175MHz
> Input B 5Hz-2MHz
>
> The Input B doesn't show a count when a signal is applied.
>
> The Input A section seems to operate as it should.
>
> I've seen that the actual circuit section for Input B does have an output
> signal which is connected to the main board at J103.
> I can also see that the counter/display IC is getting good signals at the
> correct pins.. input A and B, and control.
>
> Some repairs were made by previous owner, it seems, such as replacement of
> the original Frequency Counter/Timer display driver U20, with an
ICM7226AIJL
> (high reliability ceramic).
>
> I first assumed that someone may have applied over-voltage(s) to the input
> channels, and smoked the counter/display driver IC, but I've seen random
> numbers displayed as I probed around the area of IC18 and the
counter/driver
> IC, which indicates that the unit can display readings for Input B (no
> signal applied to Input A), but the displayed count is incorrect and
> inconsistent.
>
> An Intersil ICM7226A/B application/datasheet was included with the counter
> unit, and found to be installed in the unit.
>
> The ICM7226 is capable of 2 inputs A & B, and up to 100MHz as a
> multi-function (frequency/period) counter and 8 digit display driver.
>
> http://www.nostalgickitscentral.com/heath/products/heathkit_test.html
>
> The the counter/driver IC, and a circuit IC U18 CD74HCT86E (quad 2-input
> Exclusive-OR), and possibly one other support IC may have been replaced.
>
> There was evidence of what appears to be probe-skid-type, or tool
scratches
> on the bottom of the board in the area of the input circuitry section of
> Input A.
>
> The majority of the ICs are Hitachi, and a couple are Motorola and RCA
> devices.
>
> A third BNC input connector located on the rear panel is labeled TOTALIZE.
>
> Another aspect that I'm unsure of is one of the functions.. there is a
> selection of FR as one of the unit's functions, and since there is already
> one marked FREQ, I think FR represents something else.
>
> The other functions are:
>
> PER (period)
>
> TI (time interval?)
>
> TOTAL (totalize)
>
> CHK (check display and indicators)
>
>
> wb_wildbill-AT-yah-oh-oh.com
>
> --
> Cheers,
> WB
> .............
>

FR = Frequency Ratio ?
My guess , corroded switch contacts

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 9:20 am
From: "Dave M"

Wild_Bill wrote:
> This model is a factory assembled model, and wasn't available as a
> kit, AFAICT.
>
> Dual counter A-B, single 8-digit LED display (7-segment LED green or
> red digits).
>
> Input A 5Hz-175MHz
> Input B 5Hz-2MHz
>
> The Input B doesn't show a count when a signal is applied.
>
> The Input A section seems to operate as it should.
>
> I've seen that the actual circuit section for Input B does have an
> output signal which is connected to the main board at J103.
> I can also see that the counter/display IC is getting good signals at
> the correct pins.. input A and B, and control.
>
> Some repairs were made by previous owner, it seems, such as
> replacement of the original Frequency Counter/Timer display driver
> U20, with an ICM7226AIJL (high reliability ceramic).
>
> I first assumed that someone may have applied over-voltage(s) to the
> input channels, and smoked the counter/display driver IC, but I've
> seen random numbers displayed as I probed around the area of IC18 and
> the counter/driver IC, which indicates that the unit can display
> readings for Input B (no signal applied to Input A), but the
> displayed count is incorrect and inconsistent.
>
> An Intersil ICM7226A/B application/datasheet was included with the
> counter unit, and found to be installed in the unit.
>
> The ICM7226 is capable of 2 inputs A & B, and up to 100MHz as a
> multi-function (frequency/period) counter and 8 digit display driver.
>
> http://www.nostalgickitscentral.com/heath/products/heathkit_test.html
>
> The the counter/driver IC, and a circuit IC U18 CD74HCT86E (quad
> 2-input Exclusive-OR), and possibly one other support IC may have
> been replaced.
> There was evidence of what appears to be probe-skid-type, or tool
> scratches on the bottom of the board in the area of the input
> circuitry section of Input A.
>
> The majority of the ICs are Hitachi, and a couple are Motorola and RCA
> devices.
>
> A third BNC input connector located on the rear panel is labeled
> TOTALIZE.
> Another aspect that I'm unsure of is one of the functions.. there is a
> selection of FR as one of the unit's functions, and since there is
> already one marked FREQ, I think FR represents something else.
>
> The other functions are:
>
> PER (period)
>
> TI (time interval?)
>
> TOTAL (totalize)
>
> CHK (check display and indicators)
>
>
> wb_wildbill-AT-yah-oh-oh.com

Do you have a copy of the schematic that you can post somewhere on the web
so we can take a look at the circuitry? Otherwise, it's just a shot in the
dark.

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 9:26 am
From: nesesu

On Jan 1, 8:01 am, "Wild_Bill" <wb_wildb...@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote:
> This model is a factory assembled model, and wasn't available as a kit,
> AFAICT.
>
> Dual counter A-B, single 8-digit LED display (7-segment LED green or red
> digits).
>
> Input A 5Hz-175MHz
> Input B 5Hz-2MHz
>
> The Input B doesn't show a count when a signal is applied.
>
> The Input A section seems to operate as it should.
>
> I've seen that the actual circuit section for Input B does have an output
> signal which is connected to the main board at J103.
> I can also see that the counter/display IC is getting good signals at the
> correct pins.. input A and B, and control.
>
> Some repairs were made by previous owner, it seems, such as replacement of
> the original Frequency Counter/Timer display driver U20, with an ICM7226AIJL
> (high reliability ceramic).
>
> I first assumed that someone may have applied over-voltage(s) to the input
> channels, and smoked the counter/display driver IC, but I've seen random
> numbers displayed as I probed around the area of IC18 and the counter/driver
> IC, which indicates that the unit can display readings for Input B (no
> signal applied to Input A), but the displayed count is incorrect and
> inconsistent.
>
> An Intersil ICM7226A/B application/datasheet was included with the counter
> unit, and found to be installed in the unit.
>
> The ICM7226 is capable of 2 inputs A & B, and up to 100MHz as a
> multi-function (frequency/period) counter and 8 digit display driver.
>
> http://www.nostalgickitscentral.com/heath/products/heathkit_test.html
>
> The the counter/driver IC, and a circuit IC U18 CD74HCT86E (quad 2-input
> Exclusive-OR), and possibly one other support IC may have been replaced.
>
> There was evidence of what appears to be probe-skid-type, or tool scratches
> on the bottom of the board in the area of the input circuitry section of
> Input A.
>
> The majority of the ICs are Hitachi, and a couple are Motorola and RCA
> devices.
>
> A third BNC input connector located on the rear panel is labeled TOTALIZE.
>
> Another aspect that I'm unsure of is one of the functions.. there is a
> selection of FR as one of the unit's functions, and since there is already
> one marked FREQ, I think FR represents something else.
>
> The other functions are:
>
> PER (period)
>
> TI (time interval?)
>
> TOTAL (totalize)
>
> CHK (check display and indicators)
>
> wb_wildbill-AT-yah-oh-oh.com
>
> --
> Cheers,
> WB
> .............

My incination would be to closely examine the soldering, both rework
and original. If that looks good, then apply the same signal of about
1 kHz sine to both inputs and compare the signal at the A and B input
pins on the counter chip with a good 'scope. Vary the input level and
see that the processed signals remain identical. If the signals are
identical, then the two input channels are probably okay and the
problem lies in the the control circuitry or the counter chip. Since
you see operation when probing, that suggested the counter chip is
good, but thre is a fault in it's control due to some sort of poor
connection such as solder, a dirty switch as N. Cook suggests, or even
'lead rot' on one or more DIP packages.

Neil S.

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 3:41 pm
From: "Wild_Bill"

Thank you Nigel.. frequency ratio would likely be a function of a universal
counter with 2 inputs.

There is no selector switch to select between Input A and Input B, which I
think is what you were suggesting.
That may seem odd (to me too).. that's where a manual would be handy, to see
what the actual operating procedures are like.

I forgot to mench, something that you generally include, which would be the
age of the instrument.. probably from about 1988.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ifnjm3$bnp$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> FR = Frequency Ratio ?
> My guess , corroded switch contacts
>
>

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 3:45 pm
From: "Wild_Bill"

I appreciate your offer to assist, David, but nothing came with the unit,
other than the Intersil ICM7226 counter/driver datasheet.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> wrote in message
news:eYydnZKEIcfs_4LQnZ2dnUVZ_jGdnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> Do you have a copy of the schematic that you can post somewhere on the web
> so we can take a look at the circuitry? Otherwise, it's just a shot in
> the dark.
>
> --
> David
> dgminala at mediacombb dot net
>
>
>

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 4:16 pm
From: John Robertson

Wild_Bill wrote:
> This model is a factory assembled model, and wasn't available as a kit,
> AFAICT.
>
> Dual counter A-B, single 8-digit LED display (7-segment LED green or red
> digits).
>
> Input A 5Hz-175MHz
> Input B 5Hz-2MHz
>
> The Input B doesn't show a count when a signal is applied.
>
> The Input A section seems to operate as it should.
>...

These folks claim to have a copy for sale @ $22USD (not bad if original):

http://www.vintagemanuals.com/manual.php?manufacturer=Heathkit&model=ETI-7040

However these folks don't have a download schematic (pity) although they
do have a lot of older Heathkit info:

http://www.vintage-radio.info/heathkit/

John :-#)#

--
(Please post followups or tech enquiries to the newsgroup)
John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9
Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com
"Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 4:38 pm
From: "Wild_Bill"

Thanks Neil.. my suspicion is as you suggested, as I've seen waveforms
present at the 2 inputs of the counter IC with signal generator inputs at
Input A & B, and that perhaps one of a couple of other ICs may be the
culprit.

In numerical order, just before the ICM7226 counter IC there are:
U18 quad 2-input Exclusive-OR
U19 HD74LS74AP dual D-type positive edge triggered F-flops with reset and
clear

Of course, there are numerous other signals to the counter IC that are
essential for proper operation, where I believe a schematic would be most
helpful.
There is a Test Point pin TP1 beside U18, for example.

The only obvious non-factory soldering is around the input area of the Input
A circuit components, where it appears that some resistor leads were lifted
to check their values.
The soldering under the sockets for the 2 newer ICs (U18 and counter IC U20)
looks identical to the rest of the wave-soldered factory assembly
connections, although oddly enough those 2 ICs are the only ones with
sockets.

FWIW, I wouldn't claim that it's not possible for me to be fooled, but I've
seen a lot of soldering and hand soldering generally always has certain
characteristics that differ from factory connections, such as inconsistent
amounts of solder applied to some pads and several other traits.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"nesesu" <neil_sutcliffe@telus.net> wrote in message
news:854be12d-a25e-4bb3-8e1d-c2a1d6dbfcb1@35g2000prb.googlegroups.com...

Neil S.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Repair of Kaon satellite/terrestrial receiver
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/81d030413198eb43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 10:52 am
From: Jeroni Paul

Hello

I was given a Kaon KVR-1000TS+, a set top box with satellite +
terrestrial digital tuner, hard disk, USB + Ethernet and analog video
input recording capability. It works great but with a small problem
and there appears to be very little info for this model on the net. I
already updated the firmware to the latest available (V01.01.25).
It is like this one but mine does not have S7 in the model number:
http://www.kaonmedia.com/eng/product/view.php?org_num=196

When turned on from stand-by it goes through its initialization
procedure that usually takes around 30 seconds, sometimes starts right
away and is fine until turned off. But most times it keeps rebooting
several times until finally starts fine. What annoys me about this is
that it keeps turning on and off the harddisk and this is a good way
to damage it. It has nothing to do with temperature or cold start.

I have removed the ethernet card and harddisk to discard possible
culprits and the problem is exactly the same, checked all
electrolytics with my ESR meter, found none suspicious. I have scope
and logic analyzer (PC based) available.
I have been using it for a year without harddisk to see if the
"failing" component would finally fail completely but nothing has
changed.

I have identified the cause of the reboots. The box has two
microprocessors, one is the main MPEG decoder that controls tuners,
memories, etc and the other is at the front panel controlling the
buttons, remote sensor, VFD display and more importantly the power
supply. At turn on within the first second the front processor
receives a burst of digital data from the main processor (a two wire
interface, not I2C) and from that moment the front processor waits 11
seconds for some activity on the bus, if it sees nothing performs a
reboot. The problem is that the main processor sends something at
approximately 10 seconds but sometimes it will take an additional
second to reach that point so causing that random reboot problem. When
the reboot happens it is almost about to send that "I am alive" signal
as seen in the log output in its serial port.

My feeling is the front processor has a very tight time-out and there
could be something delaying slightly the main processor startup
procedure. My suspect is around the 27 MHz oscillator maybe starting
slow or drifting in frequency. But no erratic operation can be seen
once it has started properly. Also, I have disconnected the bus to the
front processor and found that if it does not receive the first burst
of activity it waits indefinitely, so it is that burst that triggers
the 11 seconds time-out.

Since there is a buffer driver with output enable (OE) capability in
the main processor to front processor bus I was thinking in a
workaround to delay the OE activation some seconds at power up with a
resistor and capacitor to stop the initial burst to reach the front
processor and then have it wait indefinitely. I have tested this
solution by disconnecting manually the bus wire and it works but this
seems a hack rather than a repair. I would like to hear of some
opinion or past experience about this.

I have logged the messages that come out of its serial port with
timestamps and identified where the main processor sends the "I am
alive" data to the front processor. It is in one of the following
lines (see the complete log at the end of this message):
40544,0508402,[P10046] firmware download O.K !!!
40544,0508411,MC_RxStart!!!!!!
40544,0508415,size = 676, addr = 1280

Note that the reboot occurs just before these lines, a few hundred
milliseconds before. P10064 refers to the DVB-T tuner and sometimes it
reboots after this message so errors with uploading the tuner firmware
are discarded.

Here follows the complete log of serial port messages where it has
rebooted two times and started fine at the third attempt. The left
column is a timestamp with 0.01 seconds accuracy. Some of the I2C
devices I have identified:
0xA0 - EEPROM 24C16
0x10 - DVB-T tuner (chip TDA10046A)
0xC0 - DVB-S tuner (chip STV0299B)
It seems to try to detect some DVB-S tuners before finding the right
one and then randomly gives errors writing to the DVB-S tuner but
these errors have no relation at all with the reboots, I have seen
these errors appear with no reboot involved and the satellite tuner
always works fine. Note that the harddisk is not plugged, so it gives
an error in the log.

40544,0505136,Loader v3.1.3 Loader Built:Nov 11 2004, 14:15:06
40544,0505136,Uncompress Flash Application...
40544,0505393,Launch Flash Application...
40544,0505409,-------------------------- START
----------------------------------
40544,0505409,Build Date : Jun 7 2007 , 21:15:26
40544,0505452,[FE] Version : 03.00.02 Last Update : 2006.12.29
40544,0505454,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xA0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0505454,E2PROM 1 check error :::
40544,0505454,E2PROM 0 check OK :::
40544,0505454,EMMA_FE_GPIO_Initialize :: eBRD_TYPE_NO_ASIC
40544,0505503,DUO_DetectChannel(0-0, 19, LG-T, 1):DVB_T_13 = OK
40544,0505503,fe_check_tuner(11) = 1
40544,0505503,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 2, ZL10,
1):DVB_S_3STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x1C) Write err
40544,0505505,STI2C_Read(addr=0x1C, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0505505, = N.G
40544,0505505,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 4, LG10,
1):DVB_S_5STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x1E) Write err
40544,0505507,STI2C_Read(addr=0x1E, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0505507, = N.G
40544,0505507,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 5, LG11,
1):DVB_S_6STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x10) Write err
40544,0505507,STI2C_Read(addr=0x10, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0505508, = N.G
40544,0505508,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 0, SHRP1, 0):DVB_S_1 = OK
40544,0505514,fe_check_tuner(12) = 1
40544,0505863,

40544,0506393,Loader v3.1.3 Loader Built:Nov 11 2004, 14:15:06
40544,0506393,Uncompress Flash Application...
40544,050665,Launch Flash Application...
40544,0506666,-------------------------- START
----------------------------------
40544,0506666,Build Date : Jun 7 2007 , 21:15:26
40544,0506711,[FE] Version : 03.00.02 Last Update : 2006.12.29
40544,0506711,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xA0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506711,E2PROM 1 check error :::
40544,0506711,E2PROM 0 check OK :::
40544,0506713,EMMA_FE_GPIO_Initialize :: eBRD_TYPE_NO_ASIC
40544,050676,DUO_DetectChannel(0-0, 19, LG-T, 1):DVB_T_13 = OK
40544,050676,fe_check_tuner(11) = 1
40544,050676,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 2, ZL10,
1):DVB_S_3STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x1C) Write err
40544,0506762,STI2C_Read(addr=0x1C, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506762, = N.G
40544,0506762,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 4, LG10,
1):DVB_S_5STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x1E) Write err
40544,0506764,STI2C_Read(addr=0x1E, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506764, = N.G
40544,0506764,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 5, LG11,
1):DVB_S_6STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x10) Write err
40544,0506765,STI2C_Read(addr=0x10, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506765, = N.G
40544,0506765,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 0, SHRP1, 0):DVB_S_1 = OK
40544,0506773,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=7) err
40544,0506774,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506774,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506774,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506794,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=7) err
40544,0506794,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506794,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506796,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506814,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=7) err
40544,0506816,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506816,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506816,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xC0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0506829,fe_check_tuner(12) = 0
40544,0507136,

40544,0507666,Loader v3.1.3 Loader Built:Nov 11 2004, 14:15:06
40544,0507666,Uncompress Flash Application...
40544,0507923,Launch Flash Application...
40544,0507939,-------------------------- START
----------------------------------
40544,0507939,Build Date : Jun 7 2007 , 21:15:26
40544,0507984,[FE] Version : 03.00.02 Last Update : 2006.12.29
40544,0507984,STI2C_Write(addr = 0xA0, bytes=1, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0507984,E2PROM 1 check error :::
40544,0507984,E2PROM 0 check OK :::
40544,0507984,EMMA_FE_GPIO_Initialize :: eBRD_TYPE_NO_ASIC
40544,0508033,DUO_DetectChannel(0-0, 19, LG-T, 1):DVB_T_13 = OK
40544,0508033,fe_check_tuner(11) = 1
40544,0508033,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 2, ZL10,
1):DVB_S_3STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x1C) Write err
40544,0508035,STI2C_Read(addr=0x1C, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0508035, = N.G
40544,0508035,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 4, LG10,
1):DVB_S_5STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x1E) Write err
40544,0508037,STI2C_Read(addr=0x1E, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0508037, = N.G
40544,0508037,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 5, LG11,
1):DVB_S_6STI2C_WriteNoStop(Handle=0x10) Write err
40544,0508039,STI2C_Read(addr=0x10, timeout=10, ret=8) err
40544,0508039, = N.G
40544,0508039,DUO_DetectChannel(1-0, 0, SHRP1, 0):DVB_S_1 = OK
40544,0508044,fe_check_tuner(12) = 1
40544,0508402,[P10046] firmware download O.K !!!
40544,0508411,MC_RxStart!!!!!!
40544,0508415,size = 676, addr = 1280
40544,0508523,EEPROM DATA Version:: 0xffff
40544,0508523,Read New EEPROM DATA
40544,0508632,size : 676, 676
40544,0508686,MC_TxStart!!!!!!
40544,0508699,RMS_RxStart!!!!!!
40544,0508738,GUI_Init !!!!!!
40544,050874,FE_Start!!!!!!
40544,050874,TTXOSD_Init !!!!!!
40544,050874,[TTXOSD] Version:02.03.11, Last Update:07.02.01
40544,0508742,PSI_Init_Start !!!!!!
40544,0508742,[PSI] Version:10.00.01, Last Update:04.09.07
40544,0508742,[DB] 8000CH, 32FAV, EPG_WEEK:ON, NEW_COLOCK:ON,
(93,7544)
40544,0508782,[DB1] NS1:1, NB:2, NT:8, NS2:82
40544,0508782,[DB2] OB1:204, OT:340, OS:92
40544,0508782,[DB3] XB:408, XT:2720, XS:7544
40544,0508784,[DB4] SS1:44, SB:20, ST:12, SS2:44
40544,0508784,[DB5] AS1:91000, AB:92000, AT:94000, AS2:9c000,
AD:ee000, AM:fc000
40544,0508798,STT_init !!!!!!
40544,05088,[DVB-SUBTITLE] Version:02.03.04, Last Update:06.11.23
40544,05088,GUI_Start !!!!!!
40544,05088,TIME_Init!!!!!!
40544,05088,PVR_FileSystemInit!!!!!!
40544,0508896,MMI_TYPE :: MMI_N1
40544,0508896,MMI_API_VERSION :: 0.0.1
40544,0508896,MMI_FLASH_VERSION :: 1.0.0
40544,0508896,MMI_E2PROM_VERSION :: 2.0.3
40544,050988,PVR_OpenFileSystem 0003. Cannot find HDD Drive...(retry
= 3, error = 0x1)
40544,0509881,MP3_TaskStart!!!!!!
40544,0509881,Script_Init!!!!!!
40544,0509881,PVR_Init!!!!!!
40544,0509881,DVR_Initialize!!!!!!
40544,0509881,[A/DVR] Version:01.00.00, Last Update:04.07.17
40544,0509885,PROMPT>ciMain !!!!!!
40544,0509887,[CI] Version : 02.07.07 Last Update : 2007.05.04
40544,0510543,Now not used ProtectViewable slot

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WTB Operating manual for Panasonic Talking Clock Radio #RC6900
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/618285c775756d4e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 12:36 pm
From: Gman

I need one desperately.
Will pay any reasonable price.

TIA,
Lew

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jan 1 2011 5:31 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Gman"

>I need one desperately.
> Will pay any reasonable price.

** The Panasonic RC6900 radio dates from 1973.

... Phil

==============================================================================

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sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 6 topics - digest

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