sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Need help with switching power supply repair
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/efc81d21dede85df?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 9:30 am
From: Jim Yanik

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:p8mm77dur3hb6af5n9i275438jkbrqo2sj@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT), senator richards
><rnewman36@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>I am trying to troubleshoot a small SMPS that came from an A/V
>>switcher.
>
> A photo of the PS would be helpful. Mostly, I'm looking for what
> manner of regulator chip is being used and whether there's a
> transformer or optoisolator involved.
>
>>Input is 120vac and it is supposed to output + and - 15vdc
>>at .8A. Currently it is outputting +17 on one output and somewhere
>>between +22 and +30 on the other output.
>
> If you have +30VDC on an output circuit that is suppose to only
> tolerate +15VDC, it's possible that the output caps are now dead,
> especially if this PS has been run for quite some time. The output
> caps are probably rated at 25WV, which doesn't apprecitate the 30V (or
> more if there are voltage spikes on the output).
>
>>My experience with SMPS has
>>usually been shorted rectifiers or bad output filter caps
>
> Yeah, that's the usual problem.
>
>>so the first
>>thing I did was check all the diodes and replace the output caps.
>>Obviously that didn't fix the problem. The high voltage is about
>>170vdc. The supply to the pwm chip is fluctuating between 7-15v,
>
> Fluctuations like that are sometimes arcing in the xformer or spurious
> oscillations in the regulator chip. High output voltage usually means
> a failure in whatever is regulating or sensing the output voltage. As
> others have suggested, get an isolation xformer before you kill
> yourself. Then, attach a scope probe to the output lines, regulator
> pins, and optoisolator, and see what's causing the fluctuations.
> That's not normal.
>

determine what output rail the supply regulates from.
then check it's filter caps for ESR.

I've seen where the filter cap(s) on that rail had a high ESR,and the PWM
control tried to drive it back to the nominal voltage,and the OTHER output
rails climbed high because of that. And that caused high dissipation in
other circuits that eventually burned a hole in the PCB.

you could also have a bad electrolytic on the reference output on the PWM
chip. or a reference divider resistor changed value.

Find the datasheet for the PWM Ic and learn the inputs and what levels they
should be at,that will tell you how your supply is supposed to work.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 11:51 am
From: "sci.electronics.repair"

> determine what output rail the supply regulates from.
> then check it's filter caps for ESR.
>
> I've seen where the filter cap(s) on that rail had a high ESR,and the PWM
> control tried to drive it back to the nominal voltage,and the OTHER output
> rails climbed high because of that. And that caused high dissipation in
> other circuits that eventually burned a hole in the PCB.
>
> you could also have a bad electrolytic on the reference output on the PWM
> chip. or a reference divider resistor changed value.
>
> Find the datasheet for the PWM Ic and learn the inputs and what levels they
> should be at,that will tell you how your supply is supposed to work.
>

I've checked all the caps. i replaced all the output caps initially
before I had the ESR meter. Now with the meter i've gone through all
the caps (there are 8 total on this smps) and only one tested bad. It
was the 10uf 16v that Franc mentioned previously. Replacing it didn't
seem to fix the problem. I have the datasheet on the pwm. It is a
UC3842BN I checked the input voltage and it was erratic as mentioned
previously. I checked the two resistors, diode, and filter in the
supply and they all seem ok. Here is a link to some pictures I took
with my phone:

https://picasaweb.google.com/115370641579278903570/SMPS?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCJ2014unnrOWvgE&feat=directlink

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 5:56 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"sci.electronics.repair" <rnewman36@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:26b39f80-37e4-4dd2-bdae-46c118a3c01c@1g2000vbu.googlegroups.com...
> On Sep 21, 8:08 pm, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> "senator richards" <rnewma...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:dd3e3ab9-1f98-41b8-a7ec-08431af9a33d@u20g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > I am trying to troubleshoot a small SMPS that came from an A/V
>> > switcher. Input is 120vac and it is supposed to output + and - 15vdc
>> > at .8A. Currently it is outputting +17 on one output and somewhere
>> > between +22 and +30 on the other output. My experience with SMPS has
>> > usually been shorted rectifiers or bad output filter caps so the first
>> > thing I did was check all the diodes and replace the output caps.
>> > Obviously that didn't fix the problem. The high voltage is about
>> > 170vdc. The supply to the pwm chip is fluctuating between 7-15v, so
>> > i'm thinking this might be the problem, but maybe its something else.
>> > In case its not obvious, i'm fairly new to tinkering with these
>> > things. Thanks in advance for any help.
>>
>> > Randy
>>
>> The cap that filters the supply to the pwm chip on the primary side,
>> maybe ?
>> It's pretty common on most designs of switcher. Work on the thing on an
>> isolation transformer if at all possible. They are potentially very very
>> dangerous if you are not fully competent with them
>>
>> Arfa
>
> Thanks for the help. I borrowed an ESR meter and checked the cap that
> supplies the pwm chip. The cap is a 47uf 50v and esr measures .5 which
> appears to be about right.
>
> I don't have an isolation transformer but will look into getting one.
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> -R

A brand new cap might be a little better than that, but certainly right ball
park at 0.5 ohms, and would not be an issue at that figure. About the only
other thing that you could try, assuming that it uses a startup resistor
from the 170v, is to disconnect the self-feed diode from the switching
transformer. That way, you will force it to run from the startup supply
only, just in case the self-run voltage is fluctuating, and interfering with
your reading on the pwm chip's supply. Bear in mind though, that you can't
run it for too long on the startup resistor, as it will get quite hot, being
normally intended to supply current to the chip, only for as long as it
takes the supply to fully start up and settle. If the voltage supply to the
chip still jiggles around when it is only being fed by the resistor, then
after the 47uF cap, which may yet be faulty, but not in an ESR way, the next
prime suspect would have to be the chip itself.

Arfa

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Exploring rotary encoder problems
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/5b678ef9db12089e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 9:54 am
From: "N_Cook"

Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:-pednRlQ069PwubTnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> N_Cook wrote:
> >
> > Why do they not use "dry lubricant" perhaps
> > locksmith's graphite as long as in a minute quantity.
>
>
> The grease is needed to prevent metal migration across the open areas
> as they slide. I've seen people try to run similar items dry, or with
> other crappy lubricants. Graphite would need something to hold it to
> the board, and you would need enough that would cause leakage as the
> sliding contact compacted it to the surface. Good old fashioned 'GC
> Tunerlube' does an excellent job on sliding contacts.
>
>
> --
> You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

I can see that with multifunction DVM rotary dials where there is small gaps
between tracks. But the 2 rotary encoders I looked into this week were about
1mm wide spokes tracks with the contacts at the periphery so spaces of about
5mm of insulator disc material

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 11:48 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

N_Cook wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:-pednRlQ069PwubTnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> >
> > N_Cook wrote:
> > >
> > > Why do they not use "dry lubricant" perhaps
> > > locksmith's graphite as long as in a minute quantity.
> >
> >
> > The grease is needed to prevent metal migration across the open areas
> > as they slide. I've seen people try to run similar items dry, or with
> > other crappy lubricants. Graphite would need something to hold it to
> > the board, and you would need enough that would cause leakage as the
> > sliding contact compacted it to the surface. Good old fashioned 'GC
> > Tunerlube' does an excellent job on sliding contacts.
> >
> >
> > --
> > You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
>
> I can see that with multifunction DVM rotary dials where there is small gaps
> between tracks. But the 2 rotary encoders I looked into this week were about
> 1mm wide spokes tracks with the contacts at the periphery so spaces of about
> 5mm of insulator disc material

Not 'between tracks', but between the pads a moving contact uses. 25
years ago I serviced CATV converters for a living. I had to use a soft
eraser to remove the tracking between contacts if the original lube had
hardened, or where an outside service company had wiped away the old
grease and used a fiberglass brush in a half assed attempt to clear away
the smear of silver. I did well over 1000 repairs in four years with a
return rate of a little over .2%. Over 50% of the units returned from
the outside service company were either bad, out of the box or failed
within a month. I was hired to create the in house service department
because we had over 1/3 of our converters either at the outside company,
or on a UPS truck and in transit. We added 350 new customers without
buying any new equipment, after I had the in house repair facility set
up. We went from the worst rated CATV company in the reigion to the
top, in under six months.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 1:51 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote:
>
> N_Cook wrote:
> >
> > Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > news:-pednRlQ069PwubTnZ2dnUVZ_hSdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> > >
> > > N_Cook wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Why do they not use "dry lubricant" perhaps
> > > > locksmith's graphite as long as in a minute quantity.
> > >
> > >
> > > The grease is needed to prevent metal migration across the open areas
> > > as they slide. I've seen people try to run similar items dry, or with
> > > other crappy lubricants. Graphite would need something to hold it to
> > > the board, and you would need enough that would cause leakage as the
> > > sliding contact compacted it to the surface. Good old fashioned 'GC
> > > Tunerlube' does an excellent job on sliding contacts.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.
> >
> > I can see that with multifunction DVM rotary dials where there is small gaps
> > between tracks. But the 2 rotary encoders I looked into this week were about
> > 1mm wide spokes tracks with the contacts at the periphery so spaces of about
> > 5mm of insulator disc material
>
> Not 'between tracks', but between the pads a moving contact uses. 25
> years ago I serviced CATV converters for a living. I had to use a soft
> eraser to remove the tracking between contacts if the original lube had
> hardened, or where an outside service company had wiped away the old
> grease and used a fiberglass brush in a half assed attempt to clear away
> the smear of silver. I did well over 1000 repairs in four years with a
> return rate of a little over .2%. Over 50% of the units returned from
> the outside service company were either bad, out of the box or failed
> within a month. I was hired to create the in house service department
> because we had over 1/3 of our converters either at the outside company,
> or on a UPS truck and in transit. We added 350 new customers without
> buying any new equipment, after I had the in house repair facility set
> up. We went from the worst rated CATV company in the reigion to the
> top, in under six months.

That should have read, "I did well over 10,000 repairs in four years,
with a return rate of a little over .2%."

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Contactor coil: 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0d1a06068779ce43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 9:59 am
From: ehsjr

NT wrote:
> On Sep 19, 5:25 pm, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>NT wrote:
>>
>>>On Sep 9, 5:33 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>NT wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and if the relay is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coil, how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>proposed using 174v rms,
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to
>>>>>>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>>>>>smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
>>>>>>>>>>>matters.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>>Then show me your circuit.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
>>>>>>>>>>relay using diodes and 120V mains.
>>>>>>>>>>---
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>that would be ok on your specific relay, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>not a universal solution.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>???
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
>>>>>>>>>>>some relays it will fry them.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>>Show me.
>>
>>>>>>>>>If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
>>>>>>>>>starting to get silly.
>>
>>>>>>>>Worth investigating, to me. JF gave a specific relay & numbers. I
>>>>>>>>tried to find a relay to support the idea that an AC/DC relay would
>>>>>>>>be happy with DC voltage about 50% of AC rating. Can you please
>>>>>>>>provide a reference?
>>
>>>>>>>>Meanwhile, what I did find was an ap note from Tyco entitled
>>>>>>>>"Operating DC Relays from AC and Vice-Versa" .
>>>>>>>>http://relays.te.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3250.pdf
>>
>>>>>>>>It does not agree with the DC at ~50% of AC rating idea. It uses
>>>>>>>>the example of a KR series relay coil. Their example uses a 12
>>>>>>>>volt AC relay fed by DC. The example states that the "DC voltage
>>>>>>>>cannot exceed 9.8 volts", and "should not be lower than 7.35 volts".
>>>>>>>>Thus the DC range would be ~61%(minimum) to ~81% (maximum) of the
>>>>>>>>12VAC rating.
>>
>>>>>>>>Extrapolating, it does agree with the idea of BR+C fed by 120 for
>>>>>>>>the 240 volt relay, insofar as the DC voltage:
>>>>>>>>~146VDC min to ~194VDC max, which makes the midpoint ~170VDC.
>>>>>>>>That's very close to ~168 from the BR+C
>>
>>>>>>>>Regarding coil ratings, I've worked with DC relays, and I've worked
>>>>>>>>with AC relays, but I haven't worked with AC/DC coil relays, so
>>>>>>>>I can't speak from experience with them, and I haven't found
>>>>>>>>anything yet specifically dealing with that, other than the
>>>>>>>>link I found to Tyco. So a specific link or links would be
>>>>>>>>most helpful.
>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>Ed
>>
>>>>>>> You must remember that AC coil relays are wound a little different,
>>>>>>>its not just induction here. Inter pole windings help keep the AC
>>>>>>>coil from chattering the armature. I am sure under DC operation, this
>>>>>>>may effect the calculations.
>>
>>>>>>> There are some AC coil relays that do not do this and thus the 50%
>>>>>>>voltage for DC should come close, but then again, DC R in the coil also
>>>>>>>plays a role in this.
>>
>>>>>>>Jamie
>>
>>>>>>Your post contains nothing specific and does not address
>>>>>>my question.
>>
>>>>>>I am looking for a specific link or links that shows a datasheet,
>>>>>>ap note, or example of a relay that NT has in mind. Do you have one?
>>
>>>>>>I want specifics, like John Fields posted; the specs that NT
>>>>>>said you could get: "If you want to go get some specs of other
>>>>>>relays, you can." The specs I have been able to find so far
>>>>>>do not demonstrate what NT was talking about, thus my post
>>>>>>asking for a reference.
>>
>>>>>>Ed
>>
>>>>>Don't be anal, they make relays that will do AD/DC because they have a
>>>>>diode imbedded in them. The voltage ratings are the same. The coil is
>>>>>actually of DC type.. They also have relays with shunt diodes built into
>>>>>them, for those you need to insure the polarity is correct and are
>>>>>strictly DC only.
>>
>>>>> We also deal with solenoids to operate in the same manner..
>>
>>>>>Scroll down and read about AC coils, I am sure if you're looking for
>>>>>some more detailed information you can find it, but this will explain
>>>>>some of the differences.
>>
>>>>>http://www.ehow.com/about_6498402_difference-ac-dc-relay-coil.html
>>
>>>>>Jamie
>>
>>>>I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.
>>>>While I do appreciate your attempt to help, I must say it misses
>>>>the point.
>>
>>>>I want a *specific* link to an *AC/DC* relay of the type *NT*
>>>>had in mind, or to an ap note or reference that discusses a relay
>>>>coil that is rated for *both* AC and DC as he indicated.
>>
>>>>Do you have a link to what NT was talking about? Here's what
>>>>he said:
>>>>"The various ones I've seen that have coil 2 ratings, one for ac one
>>>>for dc, have consistently had the dc coil rating be half the ac
>>>>voltage rating."
>>
>>>>I _do not_ need generalizations, hand waving and condescending
>>>>responses. You mentioned a relay that will "do" DC because it
>>>>has an imbedded (sic) diode and say "The voltage ratings are the
>>>>same." That is *NOT* what NT said. He talks about the dc
>>>>coil rating being half the ac rating.
>>
>>>>Ed
>>
>>>I got the time to do some googling, and the dual rated relays I found
>>>were all rated at teh same voltage ac and dc, albeit with 2 different
>>>currents. The dual rated ones I used were all a fair few years ago, I
>>>remember it pretty well though, being struck at first by the dual
>>>rating thing. I wonder if design has shifted over time. These old
>>>relays were quite a lot bigger than the typical pcb ones of today,
>>>which would fit with more L & less R in their coils.
>>
>>>NT
>>
>>Thanks. I found the same thing as you when I googled - the dual
>>rated relays were all rated at the same voltage - and that prompted
>>my original question. Maybe Jamie has a specific reference to
>>an old relay that has the dual rating with the DC rating at ~1/2
>>the AC rating. Do you remember if the ones you wrote about
>>had dual coils - or was it just single coil relays rated that way?
>>
>>I suppose it doesn't matter if those relays are no longer available,
>>but there is a fascination in trying to figure it out. I can't see
>>how/why they would make a relay that operates on DC at half the AC
>>rating. The physics says it can't be a single coil relay, unless
>>the manufacturer is playing fast and loose with the ratings.
>>I can see it if the thing has a cap across the coil and a dropping
>>resistor in series, but then I don't see why a manufacturer would
>>do that.
>>
>>Ed
>
>
> They were all single coil. With the right ratio of L and R, 24v ac and
> 12v dc will give the same coil current.
>
>
> NT

Thanks.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Electromagnetic spectrum - illusion and absurdity
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/d90219824a5fe1f4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 11:00 am
From: "Robbie Hatley"

"sorin" writes:

> Electromagnetic spectrum – illusion and absurdity
> Classical electrodynamics is build up on a postulate of
> electromagnetic waves emission by accelerated charges.
> This postulate can be ruled out with simple experiment
> performed home.

No it can't.

> A simple cut off experiment can show that a beam of electrons
> accelerated in a cathode tube do not emit any electromagnetic waves
> during acceleration.

Yes they do. Ask any TV repairman.

> ... demolish the foundation of both quantum theory and classical
> electromagnetism. ...

Oh, brother. Yet another person who knows no mathematics or
physics, but thinks he can "debunk" GR, QED, Maxwell's equations, etc.
::: rolls eyes :::
If your "theories" were correct, neither transformers nor switching
power supplies would function at all. And yet they do, just as
Maxwell's equations predict. Therefore, you are full of shit.

Find a different hobby; you suck at math, physics, and electronics.
Punk rock, perhaps... or maybe modern art, or modern poetry.

--
RH

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 11:49 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Robbie Hatley wrote:
>
> Find a different hobby; you suck at math, physics, and electronics.
> Punk rock, perhaps... or maybe modern art, or modern poetry.

Don't feed the 'Fritz' troll. He's been posting this crap for years.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kill-o-watt meter used on computer UPS - bad readings?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/01a9482b8c5ce589?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 11:55 am
From: mike

Bob F wrote:
> I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and plugged it
> into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was restored,
> the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the computer, which
> is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo processor) uses.
>
> Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?
>
>
>
>
I tried a Killawatt P4400 on my old dell.
Reads 100W/140VA.

Do you know if your Killawatt is working?
Try it on an incandescent light bulb.

It's possible to exceed the crest factor capability
of the meter, but your computer shouldn't do it.

You can work around that problem by measuring
a light bulb then adding the computer and subtract
the light bulb watts.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Homebrew emergency power system - advice needed please
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/d07d79e0d8a0cf60?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 1:28 pm
From: mike

bobvalli@NOSPAMcomcast.net wrote:
> Hi
>
> I could use some feedback regarding a brainstorm of mine. I'm in the
> process of building an emergency power system for home use.
>
> The main questios are regarding supply and re-charging.
>
> For the supply, for now I'm using 12V starting batteries. The plan is
> to pick up 2 (or possibly 4) 6V 156Ah golf cart batteries.
>
> For the charger I mated a 63A Delco alternator with internal 12V
> regulatioin to a gas snowblower engine.
>
> I want to use a 1500W inverter to supply about 180 watts of AC, 8x IR
> LED surveillance cameras, and about a dozen 20mA LED lamps for
> emergency lighting all operating at their native 12VDC
>
> The questions are:
>
> Would I be able to use my alternator/generator to charge the golf cart
> batteries without damaging them?
>
> Until I'm able to get the golf cart batteries, would the couple
> starting batteries I have work OK?
>
> TIA
>
> Bob
>
>
>
It's interesting how a bunch of individual stuff that seemed like
a good idea at the time can get combined into a less than optimal
solution. Been there, done that...lotsa times.

How often does the power go off and for how long?
I got a great deal on an impulse purchase at a garage sale.
Now, I have a 5kw generator and a DIY transfer switch.
When I did the plan to install it, I discovered that the
cost of the permits and inspections cost more than the generator.
Reviewing the outage history, I determined that I only *needed* one thing.
I didn't want the pipes to freeze in the winter.
In 40 years, the power has never been off that long.
The solution was to
put a disconnect on the gas furnace air handler so I could run it off a
MUCH smaller generator.
"Just because I can" was insufficient motivation to continue the project.
Anybody wanna buy a 5kw generator and transfer switch?

I've found that an effective strategy for dealing with a power outage is
to take a nap. I don't need any power at all to do that.

Some things to think about...

Batteries have a temperature coefficient. The alternator's internal
regulator probably
compensates for that...for the designed battery chemistry.
If the batteries and generator are in different locations with significant
temperature difference, that may be an issue. Worth checking.

Golf cart batteries are VERY expensive.
Capacity may be a significant function of temperature.
Most people don't golf in the dead of winter.

If you do the math, you might discover that using the existing
batteries for short outages and running the generator continuously
for the long ones to be cost effective. The losses in the charge/discharge
processes may be more than the difference in efficiency running the
generator in spurts.

Harbor Freight will sell you a 800W 120VAC generator for $90.
It's a crap generator and probably won't last long...but how
long does it have to run? Probably a lot cheaper than golf cart
batteries...and has other uses.

As a matter of curiosity...
More than one person mentioned the security cameras.
Unless you're prepared to confront the gang of pillagers
with your trusty shotgun, what good is a security camera
during a protracted power outage? The cops are gonna be busy
elsewhere.

The 180W is an interesting number. Can't do much at all with
180W. And you can do almost as much with 90W or 30W.
Attacking the load problem at the point of use might
improve the numbers.
You're gonna have to run separate wiring anyway...if you want
to meet code. Might want to review your fire insurance to see
if it says anything about "user installed" electrical stuff.
The cost of meeting code and passing inspections was what killed my
generator project.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 2:17 pm
From: "(PeteCresswell)"

Per mike:
>As a matter of curiosity...
>More than one person mentioned the security cameras.
>Unless you're prepared to confront the gang of pillagers
>with your trusty shotgun, what good is a security camera
>during a protracted power outage? The cops are gonna be busy
>elsewhere.

As one with zero practical experience - but who has been dabbling
in IP cams since being anointed to set up a surfcam for a local
windsurfing shop....

They may want the still photos that some cams can take/store
automatically - for later use.
--
PeteCresswell

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mix and match speaker impedance
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/6ffe1481a747ed23?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 1:47 pm
From: "Tom Del Rosso"

John Larkin wrote:
>
> Hook them up any old way. It's just audio. It doesn't matter.

Some people like the reproduced audio to sound like the original audio.

--
Reply in group, but if emailing add one more
zero, and remove the last word.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 4:16 pm
From: NT

On Sep 22, 4:00 pm, "Dave, I can't do that" <davenp...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have a Panasonic SAHT670 that has worked well for quite a few years
> and it kinda died. The details are in my other post here "Panasonic
> Home theater unit - mods?"
>
> I am wondering if I just buy a new stereo amplifier and use the
> existing 5.1 speakers. I have
> 4 x 6-Ohm - 55-Watt for FR, FL, RR, RL
> 1 x 6-Ohm - 160-Watt Center
> 1 x 8-Ohm - 220-Watt Subwoofer.
>
> So here's what I am thinking and ignoring any technical rights and
> wrongs of mixing speaker impedance. {grin} I am not an audiophile and
> never have the volume cranked up high.
>
> The Stereo amp I am looking at has...
> 2 x 3-Ohm speaker outputs.
> 1 Subwoofer 1v-120K (I think it was) output.
>
> What I would like to do is serial and parallel the 5 speakers. The FR,
> RR and the FL, RL are easy, but the Center has two tweeters so it is
> important for highs I am guessing, so I would like to incorporate that
> too.
>
> I can get a 100-Watt plate amp and attach that to the back of the
> subwoofer box, so that's easy.
>
> I do not want to buy a new home theater unit as when I installed this
> one I made cut-outs in the walls for the speakers and all the units I
> have recently looked at, the speakers are too big or the price is too
> big for the near enough sized speakers.
>
> I looked at 5.1 amps and/or receivers and they are out of my price
> range right now.
>
> So any suggestions here?
>
> I am cross-posting to "sci.electronics.repair" (got yelled at here the
> last time I duplicated a post at "repair" and didn't cross-post
> instead) Hope I got it right this time.
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave

You could put on each of the 3 ohm channels 2x 6 ohm LSes, plus one of
the tweetered 6 ohms via a capacitor. Put all 3 in parallel. It gives
you 3 ohms at lf, 2-6ohms at hf, which is all good. Any modern IC
output amp will protect itself if you max out the volume, and speaker
impedances are only nominal, they vary quite a long way out in
reality.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 5:41 pm
From: David41616

On Sep 22, 4:16 pm, NT <meow2...@care2.com> wrote:

> You could put on each of the 3 ohm channels 2x 6 ohm LSes, plus one of
> the tweetered 6 ohms via a capacitor. Put all 3 in parallel. It gives
> you 3 ohms at lf, 2-6ohms at hf, which is all good. Any modern IC
> output amp will protect itself if you max out the volume, and speaker
> impedances are only nominal, they vary quite a long way out in
> reality.

Hi NT, thanks for that, but could I trouble you for an ASCII
schematic? Or a pic of a sketch. I am not as smart as you think I am.
What kind of cap, what value and voltage? If polarized, which way
around?

Thanks

Dave

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 5:52 pm
From: spamtrap1888

On Sep 22, 8:00 am, "Dave, I can't do that" <davenp...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have a Panasonic SAHT670 that has worked well for quite a few years
> and it kinda died. The details are in my other post here "Panasonic
> Home theater unit - mods?"
>
> I am wondering if I just buy a new stereo amplifier and use the
> existing 5.1 speakers. I have
> 4 x 6-Ohm - 55-Watt for FR, FL, RR, RL
> 1 x 6-Ohm - 160-Watt Center
> 1 x 8-Ohm - 220-Watt Subwoofer.
>
> So here's what I am thinking and ignoring any technical rights and
> wrongs of mixing speaker impedance. {grin} I am not an audiophile and
> never have the volume cranked up high.
>
> The Stereo amp I am looking at has...
> 2 x 3-Ohm speaker outputs.
> 1 Subwoofer 1v-120K (I think it was) output.
>
> What I would like to do is serial and parallel the 5 speakers. The FR,
> RR and the FL, RL are easy, but the Center has two tweeters so it is
> important for highs I am guessing, so I would like to incorporate that
> too.

Leave out the center channel. I don't see how you would drive it in
phase given only two amplifiers. In terms of the driving amplifier,
the nominal impedance applies only to the piston band region of the
woofer, and only part of that. (Voice coil inductance raises driver
impedance.)

> I can get a 100-Watt plate amp and attach that to the back of the
> subwoofer box, so that's easy.

You can afford three channels but not four?

> I looked at 5.1 amps and/or receivers and they are out of my price
> range right now.

Too bad. What I have done on a tight budget is buy pro grade equipment
second-hand.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 6:23 pm
From: John Larkin

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 16:47:48 -0400, "Tom Del Rosso"
<td_03@verizon.net.invalid> wrote:

>John Larkin wrote:
>>
>> Hook them up any old way. It's just audio. It doesn't matter.
>
>Some people like the reproduced audio to sound like the original audio.

After all the processing it's been through?

John

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Alliance U100 antenna rotor
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/d0231afb599de425?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 3:05 pm
From: klem kedidelhopper

On Sep 22, 12:23 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> klem kedidelhopper wrote:
>
> > On Sep 21, 6:21 pm, "Dave M" <dgminala4...@mediacombb.net> wrote:
> > > Jerry Peters wrote:
> > > > klem kedidelhopper <captainvideo462...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > >> I used to install the Alliance U100 rotors for all my antenna jobs.
> > > >> These rotors had 4 terminals that connected to the control box. I
> > > >> just came across an Alliance rotor that looks just like a U100
> > > >> however it has 5 terminals instead of 4. I have never seen this
> > > >> model of Alliance rotor before. Does anyone know what the purpose
> > > >> of the fifth terminal was for and if there is any way that this
> > > >> rotor could be used with a standard U100 four terminal control box?
> > > >> Someone else suggested that the fifth terminal was for a similar
> > > >> system as the U100 but it was solid state. If so, was the solid
> > > >> state circuitry in the box or the rotor? Because as I remember from
> > > >> disassembling and repairing some of those, inside the rotor were
> > > >> just motor windings and a stop switch, I wonder if in fact the
> > > >> electronics was all in the box and the fifth terminal was just
> > > >> something to do with the solid state "improvement" to the system,
> > > >> one could possibly ignore the fifth terminal and just use a standard
> > > >> U100 ratchet type box? Lenny
>
> > > > It's not a "stop switch", every time the contacts close, it actuates
> > > > the solenoid in the control box & advances the dial by 1 detent.
>
> > > > Jerry
>
> > > Your 5-terminal rotator unit is likely model C-225. It's definitely a solid
> > > state control box, and can't be modified to control a U-100 rotor. The
> > > rotors are different inside; the U-100 rotor having a reversing capacitor
> > > and the motor, the C-225 having the motor and a position-sensing
> > > potentiometer.
>
> > > Go tohttp://bama.edebris.com/manuals/alliance/rotorserviceanddownload the
> > > Alliance Antenna Rotor Service Manual and you'll be able to see the details
> > > of both models, and why they aren't compatible.
>
> > > --
> > > David
> > > dgminala at mediacombb dot net
>
> > Thanks very much for that link Dave. I had no idea that Alliance made
> > so many different types of rotors. In every new antenna installation I
> > ever did I always used a U100. The funny thing is in all these years
> > of mixing and matching old four terminal stuff I either picked up or
> > had lying around I never had a problem getting a box/control combo to
> > work. But after looking at the schematics I guess I've been extremely
> > lucky. It's truly a shame they went out of business, They had the best
> > product for TV in the industry. I never had to climb up on someone's
> > roof even years later to replace a defective Alliance rotor. The
> > current Chinese Channel Master is a real POS. I wouldn't even install
> > one for a customer. Lenny
>
> I had to, quite a few times to replace the soft seal on rotors that
> were 25+ years old. I would pull the rotor, replace the old screws with
> stainless, clean and relube the bearings. If it had the open pot to
> drive a meter for position I would clean the resistance wire & sliding
> contact, and use GC Tunerlube on the wire. Add a new non polar
> electrolytic to the control box & replace the old wire between them, and
> they would run another 25 years. :)
>
> Some I serviced were so old that they simply had a lamp to tell you
> that the rotor was at the end of it's rotation.
>
> --
> You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

When I was a teenager I found one of those old rotors on the roof of
an apartment house near where we lived in The Bronx. A friend who was
a Ham radio operator gave me an old control box to operate it. The
control box put out the correct voltage to operate the motor but the
system had no position indication. I believe they were mismatched.
This motor had a stop switch and a small aluminum "chock" that would
jam the motor if it tried to go further than 360 degrees. I removed
the chock feeling that it was an unhealthy thing to do and installed
an indicator light circuit wired to the stop switch contacts in the
motor. The light would come on as you approached 360 degrees from
either direction. I'm 65 years old and am still using that rotor/box
combination. Can't say enough about Alliance equipment. Lenny

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why is there a thermistor in the power door lock circuit.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/c6bd6f6fca427310?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 5:35 pm
From: Jamie

micky wrote:

> On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 20:17:01 -0400, Jamie
> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:
>
>
>>micky wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 20 Sep 2011 20:52:53 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>What would the role of a thermistor be in the power door lock circuit
>>>>of a car? It's in series with the door lock "motor", which might be
>>>>a solenoid or maybe a rotating motor.
>>>>
>>>>Is it possible that it is meant to lower or turn off power to the
>>>>mechanism if the circuit is left closed for some reason and the
>>>>solenoid would otherwise overheat?
>>>>
>>>>The symbol it uses for a thermistor is a resistor symbol in an
>>>>elongated circle, like a high school running track around the football
>>>>field. Is that the usual symbol for a thermistor.
>>>
>>>
>>>Well this says the symbol is retcangle with the stick figure of a
>>>hockey stick across it.
>>>http://www.best-microcontroller-projects.com/schematic-symbols.html
>>>What's with Toyota anyhow? Are they wrong about the symbol, or maybe
>>>they're wrong when they call it a thermistor!
>>>
>>
>>Are you sure it isn't a circuit breaker?
>
>
> Well, at the beginning of the the Toyota Electrical manaul, are two
> pages with 36 electrical symbols and what they mean, and for this
> circuit, the diagram uses a symbol which it says at the start of the
> manual represents a thermistor, but it's not the symbol everyone else
> uses.
>
> Plus they use the same symbol** for the intake air temp sensor, the
> engine coolant sensor, the Air Conditioning room temp sensor, and the
> AC ambient temp sensor. . Might those really be thermistors too?
>
> **a zigzag resistor symbol inside a circle that has been elongated in
> one direction, like a model train track cricle with extra straight
> track in opposite sides. .
>
> I haven't taken apart the door yet, so I don't know what is actually
> there.
>
> My plan was to add to the passenger door-unlock output of the
> door/burglar alarm Eloectronic Control Unit a wire to a relay, which
> relay would unlock the trunk. What's connected to that output now is
> the door lock/unlock motor (solenoid?) and this "thermistor", in
> series, according to the diagram, and I wanted to understand what is
> there now and what it does, before I start fiddling with the circuit.
> The other end of the door lock circuit goes to ground and so will the
> other end of my relay circuit.
>
> I'm reticent because with the previous car and the previous alarm,
> that I installed from scratch, everything was fine, except to open
> the trunk, I had to hold down the third button for several seconds.
> Because my turnk lid didn't move when unlatched, I thought it would
> work better for me if I connected the trunk relay to the both-door
> unlock output of the alarm I installed, in parallel with the
> door-unlock relay. . However that appeared to screw everything up,
> so that many of the alarm functions no longer worked. I must have put
> too much drain on that output, even though I just doubled the drain
> (two standard automotive relays instead of one) I shoulld I guess
> have put the second relay in series with the first one, so that when
> it powered the door-unlocks, it also powered the trunk relay.
>
> I'm trying not to make the same sort of mistake here.
>
> Thanks.
>
It sounds like they are using a generic symbol to represent a thermo
sensitive device. It does not mean it would be a breaker or a
thermistor. It just means that there is a thermo sensitive device there.

Jamie

==============================================================================
TOPIC: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/4b33f31f667954a0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 5:41 pm
From: josephkk

On Thu, 22 Sep 2011 02:39:42 +0200, Sjouke Burry
<burryNULNULFOUR@PPLLAANNEETT.NNLL> wrote:

>Arfa Daily wrote:
>>
>> "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
>> news:9dsttbF2n3U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> "Arfa Daily"
>>> "Trevor Wilson"
>>>> <snip>
>>>>> * LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon.
>>>>> * Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon
>>>> Whereabouts ?
>>>
>>> ** The TW charlatan is being a real clever dick.
>>>
>>> Glass is about 23% silicon by weight.
>>
>>
>> So is that *all* glass ? I can't find any reference anywhere to silicon
>> being a component of bog-standard glass. Is it just naturally in there, and
>> if so, in what form ? Or is it put in there for some reason, and for what
>> purpose if so ?
>>
>>
>>
>>> Got NOTHING to do with the very nasty polluting and carcinogenic
>>> processes involved in making silicon semiconductors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes, where the silicon has been extracted from whatever ore it occurs in,
>> and then refined
>>
>>
>>> .... Phil
>>>
>>
>> Arfa
>>
>Silicon and oxygen together make sand.
>Glass is made from sand and a few other simple things.
>No pollution,grind the glass, and (RE-)use it as sand.
>Semiconducters on the other hand, have quite dirty production
>methods,and eating globs of energy during the refining
>stage(zone melting).

Zone melting is no longer used (it was popular in the early Germanium
days). Today they react sand with Chlorine to get SiCl4 or with Hydrogen
to get SiH4 (silane). Then they use distillation to get to parts per
trillion purity. Maybe a dopant is added at this point. Then react it
back to pure metal. That then goes into a Cockrozski crystal puller.
Slice the boule into wafers and now the nasty chemicals start. Buffered
HF, arsine, borane and worse. And along the way a lot of energy.

>See the news about the solar cell factory(s) in China which have been
>closed down....
>
>Also, I bet there is more glass in a cfl, then in an incandescent.
>
>The cfl's which failed me, all had the big capacitor burn out,except
>one, where the tube shattered.
>
>Last, hot semiconductors have the nasty habit of failing quickly,
>so I kind of do not believe those stories about the very long lifetimes
>for cfl an leds, heat kills quickly.
>Once they are able to produce a lightsource which stays cool,
>and is efficient, I will start believing those long lifetimes.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 5:55 pm
From: josephkk

On Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:17:15 +0100, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>
>
>"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
>news:9dsu8kF52lU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "Sylvia Else"
>> Arfa Daily wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I was given to understand that the colour of an incandescent bulb is
>>>> what humans are comfortable with, because it closely matches the colour
>>>> and spectrum of our sun.
>>>
>>> The sun's effective temperature (the blackbody temperature that gives
>>> approximately the same spectrum) is about 5800K, which is a lot higher
>>> than the colour temperature of an incandescent.
>>
>> ** Daylight has no particular colour temp.
>>
>> It varies from 11,000K on a overcasts day to less than 2000K at dawn and
>> dusk.
>>
>> However, daylight ( like incandescent light ) has a smooth spectrum and
>> the human eye adjusts to the varying colour temps almost perfectly.
>
>
>
>As an interesting example, my son-in-law is currently working on an old Mini
>on my drive. The other day, it was raining, so he rigged a 'tent' over the
>front, from a blue plastic tarp. When I first went under there with him,
>everything had a very blue caste, as you would expect. I didn't notice any
>adjustment / compensation going on in my brain, but it must have been,
>because when I stepped out from under there a few minutes later, the whole
>world was bright yellow. A few minutes later, all was back to normal. The
>strange thing is that I don't seem to be able to adjust to CFL light in the
>same way. It continues to have a sort of 'sick' quality for me. Even more
>curious though, is that linear fluorescents don't seem to affect me in the
>same way. I work under them all day, without issue.
>>
>
>Arfa

Some of the early CFL had/have an excess of green in their spectrum. Not
so much of a problem today.

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 6:11 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9F687D4CB4E17jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
> "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> news:b6veq.4435$4%.1004@newsfe18.ams2:
>
>>
>>
>> "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
>> news:9dsttbF2n3U1@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "Arfa Daily"
>>> "Trevor Wilson"
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>> * LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon.
>>>>> * Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon
>>>>
>>>> Whereabouts ?
>>>
>>>
>>> ** The TW charlatan is being a real clever dick.
>>>
>>> Glass is about 23% silicon by weight.
>
> glass is ~75% silicon dioxide.
>
> compare a lamp envelope to a LED silicon substrate,and there's no doubt
> about which has more silicon. At least to the rational folks.
>>
>>
>> So is that *all* glass ? I can't find any reference anywhere to
>> silicon being a component of bog-standard glass. Is it just naturally
>> in there, and if so, in what form ? Or is it put in there for some
>> reason, and for what purpose if so ?
>
> Wiki is your friend.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Got NOTHING to do with the very nasty polluting and carcinogenic
>>> processes involved in making silicon semiconductors.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yes, where the silicon has been extracted from whatever ore it occurs
>> in, and then refined
>
> from Wiki;
> Silicon is commercially prepared by the reaction of high-purity silica
> with
> wood, charcoal, and coal, in an electric arc furnace using carbon
> electrodes. At temperatures over 1,900 °C (3,450 °F), the carbon reduces
> the silica to silicon according to the following chemical equation:
>
> (not semiconductor-grade Si,that uses trichlorosilane.)
>>
>>
>>> .... Phil
>>>
>>
>> Arfa
>>
> --
> Jim Yanik

Ah. OK. I never was much of a chemist at school. I didn't realise that
silica sand was was basically silicon dioxide. Although I suppose the name
is a bit of a giveaway, with hindsight ... :-)

Still, even so with that being the case, it's a bit of a distortion to liken
this compounded silicon which is there naturally, to the pure silicon that
has been processed out of the sand, for use in semiconductors.

Arfa

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 6:45 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:Xns9F687DFAFBEA7jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
> "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in
> news:3sveq.9442$BK4.3901@newsfe22.ams2:
>
>>
>>>
>>> BTW: The discussion also involves LEDs. IMO, CFLs are an interim
>>> step. They have far too many drawbacks to be a long term solution.
>>> Incandescents are, of course, no solution at all.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Trevor Wilson
>>> www.rageaudio.com.au
>>>
>>
>> But actually, what exactly is the problem that we're trying to find a
>> solution to ? I saw some figures a few weeks ago that said that if
>> every single light bulb in the UK was changed to a CFL, the total
>> saving in energy would amount to the output of one small power
>> station. I suppose that you could argue that any saving is worth
>> having, but I sometimes think that this religion of 'green' has
>> completely overtaken common sense, and in some cases, the
>> disadvantages of a substitute technology such as CFLs, needs to be
>> weighed against the perceived disadvantages of what it's trying to
>> replace. The problem with green technology is that its advocators are
>> often zealots, who seek to portray the alternatives that they are
>> pedaling as the only solution to a problem which often, only they see.
>> They never tell the full story behind these technologies, being
>> selective in the extreme. CFLs are a good example of this, where the
>> *only* aspects that have been promoted, are the fact that they consume
>> less energy for the same amount of light output as an 'equivalent'
>> incandescent - and therein lies a can of worms before we start - and
>> that they are supposedly longer lived. The huge amounts of
>> manufacturing processes, and shipping energy for all the component
>> parts, and all the other hidden energy inputs, are politely ignored.
>> Not to mention the true disposal costs, if this is done properly. No
>> one really understands the real manufacturing costs either, because
>> governments are making sure that the true price is subsidised by
>> collecting additional 'green' taxes via the energy companies, from the
>> likes of you and I. If ever these subsidies are removed, CFLs will
>> become a major expense to a household, unless they use really crappy
>> quality Chinese imports that give poor light quality and poor starting
>> characteristics, and are much shorter lived than people are currently
>> being persuaded is the case.
>>
>> Arfa
>>
>>
>
> the manufacture of CFLs produces much more pollution than making
> incandescent lamps. it probably outweighs any savings from the use of CFLs
> over I-lamps.
> you don't need -any- mercury in making I-lamps,nor do you need phosphors.
>
>
> --
> Jim Yanik

Yes. This is kind of my point. And when I was saying that 'background' items
like shipping costs are politely ignored, I was referring to the multiple
shipping operations that are required for the many components in a CFL, and
the many raw materials contained in those components, just to get all the
bits and pieces from the individual specialist manufacturers, to the places
where the lamps are assembled. In the case of an incandescent lamp, we are
talking a few components, simply made from a few raw materials. With a CFL,
we are talking semiconductors comprising silicon, dopant chemicals, plastic,
metal. Capacitors comprising metal foil, plastic, rubber, maybe paper, metal
leads and other chemicals in the electros. Coils comprising processed iron
powder, copper wire, insulation, copper foil, epoxy adhesive, steel
leadouts. Then there's the complex glass tube, and the chemical phosphors
and mercury vapour inside it. Tungsten electrodes. Then the pcb material
that its all mounted on. Lots of soldered joints. And then the plastic
enclosure for the ballast. And then the 'normal' bits that an incandescent
has anyway. Every single one of those components, and the manufacturing
processes for *their* component parts, involves energy input for the
process. They all need workers who have to be moved from their homes and
back again each day, They have to be heated / cooled, fed and watered, and
then lit as well. And when they've made their bits of the lamp, these have
to be shipped on somewhere else. These are the energy costs that the general
public are never made aware of. If they were, they might start to question
the perceived wisdom that they've been fed, that these things are actually
'green'.

If people want to use CFLs in the belief - mistaken in my opinion - that
they are in some way helping the world to use less energy, then that's fine.
If it's really the case, then CFLs will win out the day in the end. But I
think that it is utterly wrong that the existing technology has been banned
completely on thin evidence and a less than truthful declaration of the
energy required to make and dispose of the things, the only factor being
pushed, being the lower energy consumption when they are in use, as though
this is the be-all and end-all of their right to exist, and to be forced on
us.

The point that Trevor makes about aircon to mitigate the heat output of
incandescents, holds no water here in Northern Europe. Unlike in Australia,
it seldom becomes hot enough up here for more than a few days a year, that
aircon is needed. And that is only in the summer, when it's light for 16
hours of the day anyway, so there's not much lighting being used. OTOH, for
much of the year, it is cool or cold enough to require heating in houses,
and in this case, the complete opposite of Trevor's premise, is true, in
that the heat output from the incandescent light bulbs, serves to mitigate
heat input requirement, from the central heating system.

Arfa

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 7:07 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Arfa Daily"
>
> The point that Trevor makes about aircon to mitigate the heat output of
> incandescents, holds no water here in Northern Europe.

** Or in Australia.

Householders do not turn their air con on because lamps are heating the
house up!!

Fraid the sun is the culprit in that crime.

Commercial buildings that have large amounts of lighting and air con ALL use
high efficiency lighting and have for decades.

The ONLY reason for banning incandescents is rabid green lunatics wanting to
stamp their tiny feet and make a point, forcing others to carry out their
mad ideas.

Same goes for effectively banning the use of iron core transformers in AC
adaptors.

In both cases, the lunatics legislated energy efficiency levels ( plus off
load consumptions ) such as to JUST eliminate the offending products and
allow ones a tiny bit more efficient to continue on sale.

No consideration was given to far more important issues that were involved
in the banning of such long proven and inherently safe products.

Purest lunacy.

.... Phil

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Thurs, Sep 22 2011 7:43 pm
From: "Trevor Wilson"

Arfa Daily wrote:
> "Jim Yanik" <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote in message
> news:Xns9F687DFAFBEA7jyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44...
>> "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in
>> news:3sveq.9442$BK4.3901@newsfe22.ams2:
>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> BTW: The discussion also involves LEDs. IMO, CFLs are an interim
>>>> step. They have far too many drawbacks to be a long term solution.
>>>> Incandescents are, of course, no solution at all.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Trevor Wilson
>>>> www.rageaudio.com.au
>>>>
>>>
>>> But actually, what exactly is the problem that we're trying to find
>>> a solution to ? I saw some figures a few weeks ago that said that if
>>> every single light bulb in the UK was changed to a CFL, the total
>>> saving in energy would amount to the output of one small power
>>> station. I suppose that you could argue that any saving is worth
>>> having, but I sometimes think that this religion of 'green' has
>>> completely overtaken common sense, and in some cases, the
>>> disadvantages of a substitute technology such as CFLs, needs to be
>>> weighed against the perceived disadvantages of what it's trying to
>>> replace. The problem with green technology is that its advocators
>>> are often zealots, who seek to portray the alternatives that they
>>> are pedaling as the only solution to a problem which often, only
>>> they see. They never tell the full story behind these technologies,
>>> being selective in the extreme. CFLs are a good example of this,
>>> where the *only* aspects that have been promoted, are the fact that
>>> they consume less energy for the same amount of light output as an
>>> 'equivalent' incandescent - and therein lies a can of worms before
>>> we start - and that they are supposedly longer lived. The huge
>>> amounts of manufacturing processes, and shipping energy for all the
>>> component parts, and all the other hidden energy inputs, are
>>> politely ignored. Not to mention the true disposal costs, if this
>>> is done properly. No one really understands the real manufacturing
>>> costs either, because governments are making sure that the true
>>> price is subsidised by collecting additional 'green' taxes via the
>>> energy companies, from the likes of you and I. If ever these
>>> subsidies are removed, CFLs will become a major expense to a
>>> household, unless they use really crappy quality Chinese imports
>>> that give poor light quality and poor starting characteristics, and
>>> are much shorter lived than people are currently being persuaded is
>>> the case. Arfa
>>>
>>>
>>
>> the manufacture of CFLs produces much more pollution than making
>> incandescent lamps. it probably outweighs any savings from the use
>> of CFLs over I-lamps.
>> you don't need -any- mercury in making I-lamps,nor do you need
>> phosphors. --
>> Jim Yanik
>
>
> Yes. This is kind of my point. And when I was saying that
> 'background' items like shipping costs are politely ignored, I was
> referring to the multiple shipping operations that are required for
> the many components in a CFL, and the many raw materials contained in
> those components, just to get all the bits and pieces from the
> individual specialist manufacturers, to the places where the lamps
> are assembled. In the case of an incandescent lamp, we are talking a
> few components, simply made from a few raw materials. With a CFL, we
> are talking semiconductors comprising silicon, dopant chemicals,
> plastic, metal. Capacitors comprising metal foil, plastic, rubber,
> maybe paper, metal leads and other chemicals in the electros. Coils
> comprising processed iron powder, copper wire, insulation, copper
> foil, epoxy adhesive, steel leadouts. Then there's the complex glass
> tube, and the chemical phosphors and mercury vapour inside it.
> Tungsten electrodes. Then the pcb material that its all mounted on.
> Lots of soldered joints. And then the plastic enclosure for the
> ballast. And then the 'normal' bits that an incandescent has anyway.
> Every single one of those components, and the manufacturing processes
> for *their* component parts, involves energy input for the process.
> They all need workers who have to be moved from their homes and back
> again each day, They have to be heated / cooled, fed and watered, and
> then lit as well. And when they've made their bits of the lamp, these
> have to be shipped on somewhere else. These are the energy costs that
> the general public are never made aware of. If they were, they might
> start to question the perceived wisdom that they've been fed, that
> these things are actually 'green'.

**Indeed. I just did a little research and found that some of these issues
HAVE been examined. The total manufacturing energy input for a typical CFL
is around 1.7kWhr. The total manufacturing energy input for a typical
incandescent is around 0.3kWhr. Considerably less. Or is it?

Let's put that into some kind of perspective:

A typical 100 Watt IC lasts for 1,000 hours (at best).
A typical 15 Watt CFL lasts for 5,000 hours (I've certainly exceeding that
figure quite comfortably).

Over 5,000 hours of use, the CFL has consumed 75kWhr + 1.7kWhr = 76.7kWhr.
IOW: The energy cost of manufacture is almost insignificant, even though is
a little higher than 5 incandescents.

Over 5,000 hours, the IC lamp has consumed 500kWhr + 1.5kWhr = 501.5kWhr.

I would argue that the energy cost of manufacture is a spurious argument.

The pollution cost is another matter entirely. During operation, coal fired
generators (like those here in Australia) emit mercury. A typical 100 Watt
lamp will cause the emission of around 10mg of mercury over it's life. 5
lamps (5,000 hours) will cause the release of 50mg or mercury. By
comparison, CFLs will cause the release of around 7.5mg of mercury + 4mg of
mercury contained within the envelope. If the lamp is disposed of correctly,
then the total mercury release will be 7.5mg. Far less than that of IC
lamps. Other nations, that employ different power generation schemes will
see different results.

And this does not take into pollution created at the point of manufacture.
That is an issue that should be dealt with locally.

>
> If people want to use CFLs in the belief - mistaken in my opinion -
> that they are in some way helping the world to use less energy, then
> that's fine.

**It's not a mistaken belief. It's a fact. CFLs use FAR less energy than
incandescents. From cradle to grave. Vastly, hugely less energy.

If it's really the case, then CFLs will win out the day
> in the end.

**By a massive margin, in fact.

But I think that it is utterly wrong that the existing
> technology has been banned completely on thin evidence and a less
> than truthful declaration of the energy required to make and dispose
> of the things, the only factor being pushed, being the lower energy
> consumption when they are in use, as though this is the be-all and
> end-all of their right to exist, and to be forced on us.

**Your opinion is duly noted. That comment is a political issue. I recall
EXACTLY the same arguments were made, here in Australia, when leaded petrol
was legislated out of existence. I susepct that, in 20 years, when we look
back at this whole discussion, it will appear to be a non-event. More
efficient lighting will be the standard, incandescents will be relegated to
specialised applications (oven lighting, etc) and the whole issue will be
viewed for what it really is - a storm in a teacup.

>
> The point that Trevor makes about aircon to mitigate the heat output
> of incandescents, holds no water here in Northern Europe. Unlike in
> Australia, it seldom becomes hot enough up here for more than a few
> days a year, that aircon is needed. And that is only in the summer,
> when it's light for 16 hours of the day anyway, so there's not much
> lighting being used. OTOH, for much of the year, it is cool or cold
> enough to require heating in houses, and in this case, the complete
> opposite of Trevor's premise, is true, in that the heat output from
> the incandescent light bulbs, serves to mitigate heat input
> requirement, from the central heating system.

**So? Northern Europe is not the whole world. Vast swathes of this planet
consume vast amounts of energy for air conditioning. Northern Europe is a
small player in that respect. Worse, CO2 emissions from Northern Europe
impact on those regions where a small amount of warming will lead to serious
problems. We only have one place that we can all live. We all need to work
together.

And, just to reinforce the point: I do not consider lighting to be a major
problem in power consumption (and, therefore, CO2 emissions). Nor do I
consider appliances that use auxiliary power to be a major issue either.

--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au

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