sci.electronics.repair - 18 new messages in 8 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: UK source of these .6mm "Dremmel" thick cut off discs
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/29e74f47d8c32740?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 12:28 am
From: "N_Cook"

<news@jecarter.us> wrote in message
news:da39a71kqnd3i09dvaf8fd0fqobdu2gk4k@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 23 Oct 2011 15:37:04 +0100, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
> >Tube Packaged Black and Decker RT1018 36 piece 15/16 inch Emery Cutoff
> >Wheels. These are very similar to Dremel 409 cut-off wheels. Use with
1/16
> >inch Screw Mandrel which is not included. 0.025 inch thick. Use with
Dremel
> >rotary tools. Made in USA.
>
>http://www.widgetsupply.com/page/WS/PROD/dremel-cut-off-emery-wheel/XST5-RT
1
> >018
> >
> >In-Excess had them for 0.80 GBP per tub but I did not buy enough tubs
when
> >they were in stock. Or a similar product say 20 to 36 in a tub, not the
> >expensive half dozen and a mandrel which are commonly available in model
> >shops. To cut the steel of an equipment case for a larger pannel switch,
or
> >whatever, takes 3 or 4 of them for one job.
> >
> >
>
> That sounds like a job for an oscillating saw (Fein, Festool,
> Craftsman, Harbor Freight, etc). Just buy good blades - the Harbor
> Freight blades are OK on wood but their metal-cutting blades are wimpy
> at best.
>
> John

Its a long time since I used one but I seem to remember they require too
large an operational footprint for this sort of use on "populated" cases -
say an audio mixer panel with nearly all available space occupied by
something. And then chance of colateral damage from vibration ? .
Parting-off discs cause no vibration , they also give a clean safe cut edge
with just a little break out "swarf" that a chamfering run with the disc
soon rids.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 2:30 am
From: "N_Cook"

Looks as though I will have to buy 10 tubs , 360 discs, of these B&D from
the USA as not much different in price to one tub of the Dremel equivalent
bought in the UK. Had another Google for the B&D ones in the UK and still
nothing found

==============================================================================
TOPIC: home-brew Freon TF substitutes?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/f66a71610e41b61d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 5:33 am
From: Nomen Nescio

I last saw this in the mid 1990s. I knew a warehouse that still
had some drums hidden away...
Bloody best cleaner ever. Although some liked Genklene,
now also banned.
There are some commercial spray cleaners that claim to be
almost as good. I would like something in bulk for dipping
computer boards. Isopropyl alchohol is suggested by some,
but has 9% water usually. I saw somebody write that they
used a mix of methylated spirits and naphtha. Sound like
it would clean stuff, but is flammable.
Know of anything?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 8:20 am
From: Jeff Layman

On 24/10/2011 13:33, Nomen Nescio wrote:
> I last saw this in the mid 1990s. I knew a warehouse that still
> had some drums hidden away...
> Bloody best cleaner ever. Although some liked Genklene,
> now also banned.
> There are some commercial spray cleaners that claim to be
> almost as good. I would like something in bulk for dipping
> computer boards. Isopropyl alchohol is suggested by some,
> but has 9% water usually.

Not sure where you are, but isopropyl alcohol is usually available 99.9%
pure, with a negligible water content.

Jeff

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 5:29 pm
From: gregz

Jeff Layman <JMLayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/10/2011 13:33, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>> I last saw this in the mid 1990s. I knew a warehouse that still
>> had some drums hidden away...
>> Bloody best cleaner ever. Although some liked Genklene,
>> now also banned.
>> There are some commercial spray cleaners that claim to be
>> almost as good. I would like something in bulk for dipping
>> computer boards. Isopropyl alchohol is suggested by some,
>> but has 9% water usually.
>
> Not sure where you are, but isopropyl alcohol is usually available 99.9%
> pure, with a negligible water content.

And by the time it's dried, it's picked up a lot of water.

Greg

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 6:02 pm
From: gregz

gregz <zekor@comcast.net> wrote:
> Jeff Layman <JMLayman@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 24/10/2011 13:33, Nomen Nescio wrote:
>>> I last saw this in the mid 1990s. I knew a warehouse that still
>>> had some drums hidden away...
>>> Bloody best cleaner ever. Although some liked Genklene,
>>> now also banned.
>>> There are some commercial spray cleaners that claim to be
>>> almost as good. I would like something in bulk for dipping
>>> computer boards. Isopropyl alchohol is suggested by some,
>>> but has 9% water usually.
>>
>> Not sure where you are, but isopropyl alcohol is usually available 99.9%
>> pure, with a negligible water content.
>
>
> And by the time it's dried, it's picked up a lot of water.
>
> Greg

I always blew heated air after applying alcohol, to remove the water
droplets left.

Greg

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 9:17 pm
From: isw

In article <db3eeb3e00193c2491fb05a6c5998bca@dizum.com>,
Nomen Nescio <nobody@dizum.com> wrote:

> I last saw this in the mid 1990s. I knew a warehouse that still
> had some drums hidden away...
> Bloody best cleaner ever. Although some liked Genklene,
> now also banned.
> There are some commercial spray cleaners that claim to be
> almost as good. I would like something in bulk for dipping
> computer boards. Isopropyl alchohol is suggested by some,
> but has 9% water usually. I saw somebody write that they
> used a mix of methylated spirits and naphtha. Sound like
> it would clean stuff, but is flammable.
> Know of anything?

At least some (perhaps not all) methylated hydrocarbons are completely
non-flammable, and also are heavier than water and will not mix with it.
I am sure that is true of methylene chloride.

Be careful, though; it is a powerful solvent, removing, among other
things, *all* the oil from your skin, if you have much contact with it.
It is absorbed through the skin, too, and hurts/burns.

It may also neatly soften or dissolve a lot of the plastics used in
electronics; I don't know.

Isaac

==============================================================================
TOPIC: O2 Joggler power supply voltage and wattage ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/46d63938d1736d01?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 8:56 am
From: kwamena banson

On Oct 22, 9:08 pm, Archon <Chipbee40_Spa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 10/22/2011 3:45 PM, fynnas...@yahoo.com wrote:
>
> > Hi I'm looking for a PSU for a lost O2 joggler. I will need the
> > voltage and current. Thanks
>
> 5V 400mA according tohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O2_Joggler
> JC

Thanks so much

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Tektronix TDS-744A SPC fails
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b56d00cbbdb41f12?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:41 am
From: Andy Cuffe

Good news, replacing the relays appears to have cured the SPC problem.
Half of the old relays had an ohm or more of resistance, so it's no
surprise it was having problems.

Replacing the relays was fairly easy, but you'll need a good soldering
station with a long tip. The attenuators are ceramic hybrids, so I
used silver bearing solder just to be on the safe side.

I'm still looking for a CRT or two, if anyone has one left over from
an LCD upgrade, or parted out scope.

I will post back if I find the cal software.

One other question I have is about the TV trigger board (option 05).
My TDS544A has this, and I would like to move it to the TDS744A. I
already built new power ribbon cables and added the second connector
to the bus board. The TV trigger option shows up in the 744 and
passes the self tests, but the trigger level appears to be off. It
will only trigger when the trace is adjusted so that it's cut off at
the top of the screen. I suspect the board is either incompatible, or
that there is a calibration for the TV trigger level that needs to be
done.

Does anyone know if any calibration is required after adding TV
trigger? Did Tektronix even allow you to add option 05?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: issue with electret condenser mic
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0f83e591aedae6bd?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 10:44 am
From: mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com

I have a couple of devices with electret condenser mics, one is an old Casio PDA, another is a 1/8" headphone adapter with a built-in microphone (for iPhone/iPad). Both devices have working mics, but recordings are noisy. The noise is slightly different in each case. With the PDA, recordings have a rumbling noise over them. With the iPhone adapter, recordings have a popping sound that appears every second or so. Does anyone recognize these symptoms and can they be fixed with a new electret mic element, or by some simple modification such as wiring a resistor or capacitor in? (I have a few electret mics taken out of old radios/etc, that may still be good.)

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 11:34 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

mad.scientist.jr@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I have a couple of devices with electret condenser mics, one is an old Casio PDA, another is a 1/8" headphone adapter with a built-in microphone (for iPhone/iPad). Both devices have working mics, but recordings are noisy. The noise is slightly different in each case. With the PDA, recordings have a rumbling noise over them. With the iPhone adapter, recordings have a popping sound that appears every second or so. Does anyone recognize these symptoms and can they be fixed with a new electret mic element, or by some simple modification such as wiring a resistor or capacitor in? (I have a few electret mics taken out of old radios/etc, that may still be good.)

What makes you think it's the Electrets? A rumbling noise can be an
air current across the microphone. The popping could be a decoupling
problem in the power supply.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 12:30 pm
From: madscijr

That's a fair question.

In the case of the Cassiopeia PDA (also happening in an old NEC "netbook" type PDA), the rumbling noise happens in isolated places where no air is moving and everything is quiet (ie in an automobile inside the garage [the engine was off, btw], in a walk-in closet w/no vents, etc.) The Casio & NEC are from the late 90s & the noise only began appearing in the past couple of years.

In the case of the iPhone adapter, I have 5 or 6 of these (ie for the car, living room stereo, radio in garage, for work, etc.) I am only getting the popping noise from 3 of the adapters I ordered separately from the first 4. The noise occurs in both my iPhone and iPad, only with the 3 adapters, and does not happen with the other 4 adapters, so I'm pretty sure the problem isn't in the power supply. (I paid less than $1 each & can generally use the ones with bad mics in places where I want to listen to music and don't need the microphone for recording.)

The cover of one adapter popped open and got lost so I cannibalized it to add a headphone jack to below iPhone 1/4" guitar input. That part is working great. However I added a DPDT switch to go between guitar input & condenser, and the condenser is noisy, hence my question.

Also I am generally curious about this since I have 3 devices with electret related noise issues, and it would be nice to fix.

PS here are the devices in case you are curious

----------------------------------------
The headphone adapter:

Headset Hands Free 3.5mm Adapter + Microphone for Apple iPod Touch iTouch 1 2 3 iPhone 2 3g 3gS

http://www.amazon.com/Headset-Adapter-Microphone-iTouch-iPhone/dp/B002ZX695U/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1319482629&sr=8-16

http://www.amazon.com/Headset-Adapter-Microphone-iTouch-generation/dp/B0034Z5GY8/ref=sr_1_41?ie=UTF8&qid=1319482655&sr=8-41

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handsfree-earphone-Adapter-w-MIC-iphone-3G-3GS-/110760081404?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item19c9d0b7fc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Handsfree-earphone-Adapter-w-MIC-iphone-3G-3GS-/110760698549?pt=PDA_Accessories&hash=item19c9da22b5

----------------------------------------
The guitar input:

Peterson 3.5mm - 1/4in iPhone/iTouch Adapter Cable White

http://www.amazon.com/Peterson-3-5mm-iPhone-iTouch-Adapter/dp/B002PC88X2/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1319483412&sr=8-1-spell

----------------------------------------
The Windows CE devices:

NEC MobilePro 770
http://www.hpcfactor.com/hardware/devices/specification.asp?d=129
http://www.necam.com/mobilesolutions/images/PDFs/MobilePro770.pdf

Casio Cassiopeia E-100 Palm-Size PC
http://www.amazon.com/Casio-Cassiopeia-E-100-Palm-Size-PC/dp/B00000J0EN
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=specs&id=9&c=casio_cassiopeia_e-100

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sony DSC-P3 has Error Code 61;00
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/59d8a0c9abbbf9c7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 11:31 am
From: abrsvc

On Oct 23, 11:34 pm, "hrhofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote:
> On Oct 23, 8:08 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>
> > The last time you transferred pictures to your computer... Did you properly
> > eject the memory stick before removing it? If not, you could have damaged
> > the stick.
>
> I transferred using the USB connector on the camera to download to the
> computer.

Pne of the most common causes of this error is poor contacts on the
memory stick. Remove the stick and burnish the contacts a little. Re-
insert the stick and try again. It doesn't take much to cause a
questionable connection at the pins. The contacts can fatigue a bit
as well.

Update this with your progress.

Dan

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 9:24 pm
From: "hrhofmann@att.net"

On Oct 24, 1:31 pm, abrsvc <dansabrservi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Oct 23, 11:34 pm, "hrhofm...@att.net" <hrhofm...@att.net> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 23, 8:08 pm, "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgee...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
>
> > > The last time you transferred pictures to your computer... Did you properly
> > > eject the memory stick before removing it? If not, you could have damaged
> > > the stick.
>
> > I transferred using the USB connector on the camera to download to the
> > computer.
>
> Pne of the most common causes of this error is poor contacts on the
> memory stick. Remove the stick and burnish the contacts a little. Re-
> insert the stick and try again. It doesn't take much to cause a
> questionable connection at the pins. The contacts can fatigue a bit
> as well.
>
> Update this with your progress.
>
> Dan

Well---I put the camera on the charger for a couple of hours while I
was doing household chores. Then about 1/2 hour ago, I connected a
USB cable to my computer, and turned the camera on. To my pleasant
surprise, the camera turned on normally and there was no error
mesage. Now I have turned the camera off, disconnected the USB cable
and set it aside until tomorrow morning. We'll see what happens. I
didn't take the camera card out since I did look at the card earlier
today, and was still getting error messages after I replaced the
card. Contacts looked fine when I had it out, and I didn't see
anything that looked like dirt inside the card housing and its
contacts. So, we'll see what happens tomorrow
and will report back. Thanks for your suggeston.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Why do some manufacturers wrap the electrolytic capacitor that gets the
hottest in a switching power supply in shrink wrap?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/2a675f3c64fd62cc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 11:42 am
From: Mike Tomlinson

En el artículo <9db3iaF1d0U1@mid.individual.net>, Phil Allison
<phil_a@tpg.com.au> escribió:

>The shrink wrap used on electros that run hot is prone to breaking and
>exposing the metal outer.
>
>Often, there is enough leakage to this outer to be a shock hazard.

Unlike the shock hazard that's likely to be present on the adjacent
heatsink?

You're full of shit, Phil.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 5:04 pm
From: Jeff Urban

Usually anything on the hot side could use more insulation. Of course
I mean on the hot side of the mains or line. Imagine an electrolytic
bursting, there will be foil all over the place, conductive foil that
is, or else of course the capacitor would never have worked.

They have to think about catastophic failures and ground faults, so
sometimes if you want to know why they did what they did, so do you.
It is quite possibly a containment issue.

It is still a money matter, if they could save one penny they would,
but they have to figure out how many lawsuits and how much, things
like that. Hey, the drug companies think that way, so sure as hell
electronics companies will as well.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: SMPS design ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/fafbacc4bb94c7c0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 5:59 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"petrus bitbyter" <petrus.bitbyter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4ea31dff$0$482$e4fe514c@dreader26.news.xs4all.nl...
>
> "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> schreef in bericht
> news:zDooq.16012$tk5.4043@newsfe13.ams2...
>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Didn't you walk right into the problem? It seems that by a yet unknown
>>> cause the circuit sometimes runs into some state that makes it oscillate
>>> or in some other way fries the resistors. This kind of intermitted
>>> faults are the most difficult to solve as most of the times there seems
>>> to be no problem. Even your observations with the scope may mislead you
>>> as connecting the probe may change the circuit enough to change its
>>> behavior.
>>>
>>> petrus bitbyter
>>>
>>
>> Yes, there may indeed be some kind of intermittent problem. I will put
>> them all back up again on Monday, and see how they perform this time. As
>> to my 'scope muddying the waters, it's generally pretty well behaved in
>> that respect. It's a high quality 100 MHz job, which is always used with
>> a x 10 low capacitance probe. If that is having much of an effect on the
>> circuit, then it must for sure be a pretty poor design. To be honest, I
>> still think that the problem lies with me somehow. Something that I did
>> differently between the first and second times that I tried them, but I'm
>> not sure what ...
>>
>> Arfa
>
> Off course you may have made a mistake. Humans make mistakes, even I
> sometimes do :)
> But if so, what on earth fried those resistors the first time?
>
> petrus bitbyter
>
>

Every example that I've seen so far, has the resistors badly discoloured and
the print and substrate scorched. On some, one of the resistors has been
open, so the network has not been doing the job it was put there for, at
all. They are 3 watt resistors, and even when the supply *appears* to be
running correctly, they get hot enough for you to say that they are probably
dissipating a good 3 watts, and maybe a bit more, so I would guess that you
would have to say that from that angle, it's a badly designed bit of
circuitry. I am fairly convinced that the purpose of the network is to
attenuate the big spike that occurs on the leading edge of the switching
waveform. This would tie in with why they have used about the biggest film
resistors they could get, rather than using a higher power wirewound type,
which would have a fair bit of inductance. I would also surmise that they
have used two x 150 ohm resistors rather than a single 330 ohm, to try to
spread the dissipation a bit.

When you replace the resistors, they still run hot, with no visible signs on
the 'scope of any 'RF' on the waveform, so you'd have to say that it *is*
working correctly. What led to this thread in the first place was that when
I was initially evaluating these supplies for the company that wants them
repairing, after I replaced the resistors, they ran very hot when the supply
was loaded, but seemed to just run 'acceptably' hot when it was idling.
Likewise, when loaded, the switching FET got very hot, but was almost cold
at idle.

However, when I next tried them - same conditions for i/p voltage and load,
as far as I was aware - they now seemed to be working much better in that
the resistors were just acceptably hot for all conditions, loaded or not,
and the FET remained cool also. So this has now led me to believe that it
must have been something I was doing differently - and wrongly - when it was
running very hot. So, a mistake ? Yes, probably. As you say, we all make
them, and this has got to be one of the easiest trades for doing it in.

I've just heard from the company that they are sending a bunch more up this
week, so if there's some more of this type amongst them, I'll have some more
'untouched' ones to see what happens this time.

Arfa

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Oct 24 2011 8:52 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Arfa Daily wrote:
>
> "petrus bitbyter" <petrus.bitbyter@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4ea31dff$0$482$e4fe514c@dreader26.news.xs4all.nl...
> >
> > "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> schreef in bericht
> > news:zDooq.16012$tk5.4043@newsfe13.ams2...
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>
> >>> Didn't you walk right into the problem? It seems that by a yet unknown
> >>> cause the circuit sometimes runs into some state that makes it oscillate
> >>> or in some other way fries the resistors. This kind of intermitted
> >>> faults are the most difficult to solve as most of the times there seems
> >>> to be no problem. Even your observations with the scope may mislead you
> >>> as connecting the probe may change the circuit enough to change its
> >>> behavior.
> >>>
> >>> petrus bitbyter
> >>>
> >>
> >> Yes, there may indeed be some kind of intermittent problem. I will put
> >> them all back up again on Monday, and see how they perform this time. As
> >> to my 'scope muddying the waters, it's generally pretty well behaved in
> >> that respect. It's a high quality 100 MHz job, which is always used with
> >> a x 10 low capacitance probe. If that is having much of an effect on the
> >> circuit, then it must for sure be a pretty poor design. To be honest, I
> >> still think that the problem lies with me somehow. Something that I did
> >> differently between the first and second times that I tried them, but I'm
> >> not sure what ...
> >>
> >> Arfa
> >
> > Off course you may have made a mistake. Humans make mistakes, even I
> > sometimes do :)
> > But if so, what on earth fried those resistors the first time?
> >
> > petrus bitbyter
> >
> >
>
> Every example that I've seen so far, has the resistors badly discoloured and
> the print and substrate scorched. On some, one of the resistors has been
> open, so the network has not been doing the job it was put there for, at
> all. They are 3 watt resistors, and even when the supply *appears* to be
> running correctly, they get hot enough for you to say that they are probably
> dissipating a good 3 watts, and maybe a bit more, so I would guess that you
> would have to say that from that angle, it's a badly designed bit of
> circuitry. I am fairly convinced that the purpose of the network is to
> attenuate the big spike that occurs on the leading edge of the switching
> waveform. This would tie in with why they have used about the biggest film
> resistors they could get, rather than using a higher power wirewound type,
> which would have a fair bit of inductance. I would also surmise that they
> have used two x 150 ohm resistors rather than a single 330 ohm, to try to
> spread the dissipation a bit.
>
> When you replace the resistors, they still run hot, with no visible signs on
> the 'scope of any 'RF' on the waveform, so you'd have to say that it *is*
> working correctly. What led to this thread in the first place was that when
> I was initially evaluating these supplies for the company that wants them
> repairing, after I replaced the resistors, they ran very hot when the supply
> was loaded, but seemed to just run 'acceptably' hot when it was idling.
> Likewise, when loaded, the switching FET got very hot, but was almost cold
> at idle.
>
> However, when I next tried them - same conditions for i/p voltage and load,
> as far as I was aware - they now seemed to be working much better in that
> the resistors were just acceptably hot for all conditions, loaded or not,
> and the FET remained cool also. So this has now led me to believe that it
> must have been something I was doing differently - and wrongly - when it was
> running very hot. So, a mistake ? Yes, probably. As you say, we all make
> them, and this has got to be one of the easiest trades for doing it in.
>
> I've just heard from the company that they are sending a bunch more up this
> week, so if there's some more of this type amongst them, I'll have some more
> 'untouched' ones to see what happens this time.

Are you using metal or carbon film resistors? You could have a
resonance with a cap & metal film.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

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