- Interesting ... - 24 Updates
- Help with floundering son - 1 Update
| alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>: Jan 02 06:52PM On 02/01/2015 14:56, Arfa Daily wrote: > EE Times article that came to me by email today > http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405 > Arfa The electronics don't have 100 components as stated and as LED lighting becomes more widespread the support circuits will be integrated into fewer components. While the support electronics may be less reliable than the LED itself other factors such as running the devices at elevated temperatures is more likely to shorten the life. Elevated temperatures will occur if the bulb is in an inappropriate fitting (inappropriate for a LED bulb) If you applied the authors logic to LED backlit TVs 1 in 4 would have already failed. -- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
| "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net>: Jan 02 11:22AM -0800 His basic premise makes sense -- more components = lower reliability -- but the fact is that one can easily find electronic devices 50 and 60 years old that have never been serviced that continue to work. Members of this group probably own them. A failure rate of 1 in 10,000 (per year?) strikes me as unduly pessimistic, even for devices used in vacuum tube equipment. Solid-state -- which almost always operates at lower voltages and temperature -- should be even more reliable. I own devices that contain far more components than an LED bulb -- yet they do not drop like flies. Flat-panel TVs are a good example. CU says the reported breakdown rate is extremely low (3% for a few brands is on the high end), and advises against purchasing service contracts. Though the point he raises is valid, and not only deserves, but requires, study, you can't assume these products fail prematurely simply because they contain "too many parts". Why they failed is more important. I wouldn't be surprised if it was due to SMD soldering failure. |
| mike <ham789@netzero.net>: Jan 02 11:28AM -0800 On 1/2/2015 6:56 AM, Arfa Daily wrote: > EE Times article that came to me by email today > http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405 > Arfa I've never had a CFL failure that I could trace to the CFL. It's always the electronics driving it. A power glitch can take out a LED just as easily as a CFL. Lifetime guarantee. If you can find where to send it and pay more in shipping it back than the cost of replacement. And it's not the lifetime of the light. It's the lifetime of the supplier. Home lamps are designed for cheap,cheap,cheap, not for reliability. But it will get better over time. I always giggle at flashlights that say you never replace the LED, over 20,000 hour life, etc. The elephant in the room is that in most cheap designs, they put the LED directly across three batteries and hope the battery resistance increases faster than the time it takes to melt the light. And the better designs have a dozen high-stress parts in some regulator. I sawed a free harbor freight flashlight in half and soldered it back together to make an extension. Put an 18650 in an extended light. Really bright. Replacing three 1.5V with one 4.2V oughta work, right? Not for long...but far longer than I expected. Put one ohm in series and it looks like life might be ok. ;-) Still pretty bright. There's a reason they ship with heavy duty batteries. Home Depot has some really great deals if you watch closely. I bought 44 40W LED's when they were 4 for $5.05 and replaced most of my CFL. Turns out that two 40's in a Y-adapter was way cheaper than a 60W and had better light dispersion. Then they had 60W at 3 for $6.97 to replace 12 of the 40's. Then they had 75W at ONE CENT. I bought all 8 of them to replace some of the 60's. There's no possible financial reason for doing that. I tell myself that the LED's should last longer in applications where you switch them on and off a lot. But I put LED's in fixtures I haven't turned on in years. Don't judge me...I'm saving the planet... In the attic, I have about a hundred used incandescents, right next to the hundred CFL's, right next to all the spare LED's I bought but never used. Right next to the box of flashlights I couldn't help buying. And I still mine Home Depot for LED deals. I need to go to rehab for LED abuse. Often we do stuff because we can, not because we should. If I remember correctly, if you combine the MTBF of all the components, the probability of system failure within the system MTBF is 37%. Are we having fun yet? |
| "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>: Jan 03 07:48AM +1100 "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:Qkypw.703472$CW3.143099@fx07.am4... > EE Times article that came to me by email today > http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405 Mindlessly superficial. If that mindlessly superficial approach was correct, we'd all be using a pencil instead of computers. |
| Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com>: Jan 02 08:49PM > I've never had a CFL failure that I could trace to the CFL. > It's always the electronics driving it. A power glitch can take > out a LED just as easily as a CFL. I've had a couple CFLs burn out at the bulb from old age. Most had electronic failures, or jsut broke. The longest lasting CFL may be one in my bathroom with 10 years of on-off use. I'd have to remove it to checked the purchase date I write on them though. |
| "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>: Jan 03 07:54AM +1100 "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message news:m86csv$8eo$1@dont-email.me... > Doesn't take much pen ink to give a much warmer tone (to CFL bulbs anyway) > This article has soldering as a dying art along with trug making etc > http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2014/dec/30/traditional-skills-endangered-heritage-craft Just more mindlessly silly journalism. There might be only one person still making denim on that soggy little island, but plenty in china. > perhaps they meant soldering as in tin-smithing. Corse they did and they're wrong about that too. > But on the other hand how much hands-on soldering rework of modern day > mass electronics production is there? Quite a bit actually. Forget what they were making but someone posted a link to a youtube of a factory in china making something like a video camera or something. Lots of hand soldering going on. |
| Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid>: Jan 02 09:07PM On 02/01/2015 15:19, N_Cook wrote: > There is a shop in town that is all LED strip lighting. So far no > failures noticed, but I will estimate the total number of LEDs and > monitor over time. Our office has been up-and-running for less than 6 months. I don't know when it was fitted out, but the LED lights in the conference rooms are on clever circuits so they come on only when they are used - and our floor was empty. One of them has died. Not the LEDs, but the driver - it's a square luminaire with LEDs on each side, and one side flashed. Andy |
| Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid>: Jan 02 09:09PM > The longest lasting CFL may be one in my bathroom with 10 years of > on-off use. I'd have to remove it to checked the purchase date I write on > them though. I've had a few CFL's fail due to electronics failure, but the newer bulbs last longer. Unfortunately as they age they get dimmer. Looking at an aged bulb I noticed that the phosphor layer has turned a brownish color. I did have one failure that when I took it apart, 1 of the wires to to the flourescent was disconnected & the others were questionable. Soldered them all & re-assembled the bulb and it's still in use in the basement bathroom. |
| Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com>: Jan 02 09:19PM > bulbs last longer. Unfortunately as they age they get dimmer. Looking > at an aged bulb I noticed that the phosphor layer has turned a brownish > color. I'd have to agree that the newer ones seem a bit better. They've figured out how make them as simple as possible now is my guess. > the flourescent was disconnected & the others were questionable. > Soldered them all & re-assembled the bulb and it's still in use in the > basement bathroom. they're still useless for outdoor cold use. The ones outside by the stairs are like nightlights when the temps drop to freezing. It's amazing they even start. I'm not a fan of the warm up period they take, even indoors. |
| "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>: Jan 03 09:19AM +1100 "Cydrome Leader" <presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote in message news:m8720h$4l6$1@reader1.panix.com... > are like nightlights when the temps drop to freezing. It's amazing they > even start. > I'm not a fan of the warm up period they take, even indoors. I like it with the bedhead light. You don't get the same blinding effect when you turn it on in the dark. |
| Capitol <spam@wher.eva.co.uk>: Jan 02 10:29PM Cydrome Leader wrote: > are like nightlights when the temps drop to freezing. It's amazing they > even start. > I'm not a fan of the warm up period they take, even indoors. Interesting, my outside CFLs are over 35yrs old and start down to -8C without fail. My newer CFLs, die like flies in comparison, particularly in glass globe fittings. I reckon some CFLs have as short a life as filament bulbs, even when running cool.. |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jan 02 02:39PM -0800 Capitol wrote: > Iteresting, my outside CFLs are over 35yrs old and start down to -8C > without fail. ** The CFLs on sale in the 1980s used iron ballasts and most had replaceable bulbs. When used as outdoor night lights on a premises, bulb lifespan is 1 to 2 years or about 8000 hours. > My newer CFLs, die like flies in comparison, particularly > in glass globe fittings. ** The last CFL I used as a night light lasted 4 years. Naturally, it was cycled only once per day and that is the secret. .... Phil |
| "William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net>: Jan 02 02:50PM -0800 "Cydrome Leader" wrote in message news:m8720h$4l6$1@reader1.panix.com... > I'm not a fan of the warm up period they take, even indoors. Recent models come to full brightness quickly. |
| alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>: Jan 02 10:56PM On 02/01/2015 21:09, Jerry Peters wrote: > I've had a few CFL's fail due to electronics failure, +1 http://www.admac.myzen.co.uk/bulb/ -- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
| Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com>: Jan 02 05:11PM -0600 Arfa Daily wrote: > EE Times article that came to me by email today > http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led- lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405 > Arfa Yup, a lot of the consumer-grade LED lighting, at least, is crap! Some of it is even a FIRE hazard! I made my own LED retrofits. Not cheap, but they are working well. I measured the power draw of the ANCIENT magnetic ballasts for a two-lamp 48" fluorescent at 101 W. The replacement with 20 Cree "1 W" LEDs draws a measured 21 W. I used a commercial LED lighting power supply from Digi-key. I have 3 units installed with these Cree LEDs so far (first one was only 10 LEDs and a home-made power supply) and I am really happy with them. Jon |
| "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net>: Jan 02 07:51PM -0500 William Sommerwerck wrote: > study, you can't assume these products fail prematurely simply because they > contain "too many parts". Why they failed is more important. I wouldn't be > surprised if it was due to SMD soldering failure. I see a lot of LED traffic lights with groups of dead LEDs. The one closest to me is on the fourth red LED lamp in the last couple years and already has some groups that are quite dim. -- Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to have a DD214, and a honorable discharge. |
| "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>: Jan 03 01:13AM "Vir Campestris" <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote in message news:vsidnZFrvdYflTrJnZ2dnUVZ8rWdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk... > One of them has died. Not the LEDs, but the driver - it's a square > luminaire with LEDs on each side, and one side flashed. > Andy A while back, they changed the car park lights to LED at my local Co-op store. One of them started flashing in fairly short order, and has continued to do so ever since, despite my repeatedly bringing it to their attention. I suppose in the days of the metal halide lights that they had previously, the maintenance guy would just have shinned up a ladder and replaced the lamp in the fitting. To sort out this LED one would require the entire unit to be unbolted from the wall, and replaced. As to the failure on the one in your place being the driver rather than the LEDs themselves, I think that goes along with what the guy is suggesting in the EE Times article. Arfa |
| "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>: Jan 03 01:23AM "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message news:cgoeh0F6q44U1@mid.individual.net... >> EE Times article that came to me by email today >> http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405 > Mindlessly superficial. Much like you then ... Arfa |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jan 02 05:32PM -0800 On Fri, 2 Jan 2015 14:56:48 -0000, "Arfa Daily" >EE Times article that came to me by email today >http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405 >Arfa What the article says is that if you calculate the MTBF of an LED light, it will be lousy. That's true, except that it's no longer important because such lights are designed to fail. Conspiracy theory follows. The problem with LED lights is that they can theoretically last forever. All that's required is some really good heat sinking, decent components, and AC line glitch protection. You might see those on tower lights, runway lights, and other high reliability applications, but not on the consumer stuff, unless the GUM (great unwashed masses) suddenly decide that paying for quality is a good thing. The reason for the designed in failures is the need for manufactories to continue selling replacements. If they actually made a device that lasts forever, they will sell a few years worth, and then go out of business because there will be no replacement sales. Reliability is bad for (consumer) business. There's another problem. Anything that lasts longer than the intended product life is considered a waste of money. For commodity items like lighting, every penny is important because when selling millions of lamps, the pennies add up quickly. The result is that failures are evaluated on basis of MINIMIZING their lifetime. If something lasts twice as long as originally intended, it is considered a candidate for "cost reduction" which by implication means "lifetime reduction". Ideally, the result is a product where everything fails simultaneously one day after the warranty period. We're fairly close to the idea in the consumer electronics and computah industry. I've seen such simultaneous failures on the bench, especially old Sony CRT displays, which showed evidence of intentional electrolytic capacitor lifetime manipulation (weird voltage rating on the caps). With today's heavily computerized design and modeling tools, it is possible to design for a specific lifetime. All this begs the question "Why did the author write the article"? Scott Elder is no slouch and works for a reputable manufacturer of the chips used to run LED lighting. Presumably, he knows how it all works and has real data to substantiate his allegations. It seems counter productive that an industry insider would write an article denouncing the industry perception of LED lifetimes and reliability. My best guess(tm) is that he's frustrated by the aforementioned penny counting cost and lifetime reductions and wanted an indirect way to point out the problem without appears to be a conspiratorial wacko like me. That also begs the question "Why did Arfa Daily post the article"? My best guess(tm) here is that he's still having problems adjusting to LED lighting and needs a new reason to not use LED lighting. Am I at least close? This also begs the question "Why did I write this long rant when I should be doing something productive"? That's easy. I like to write conspiracy theories. It's also Friday evening, which I reserve for working on my own projects. Finally, I've had some medical problems lately and feel lousy enough to want to dump my problems on the world. This is a good start. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jan 02 05:34PM -0800 On Sat, 3 Jan 2015 01:23:28 -0000, "Arfa Daily" >> Mindlessly superficial. >Much like you then ... >Arfa Nothing profound has ever been said on one line. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jan 02 05:56PM -0800 mike wrote: > I've never had a CFL failure that I could trace to the CFL. ** Really? That puts you in a minority of one. The most common CFL failure is the tube heaters going open - most are rated for only 1 to 2 thousand switch on cycles. Ones that light up quickly and tolerate low temps better seem to be the poorest at this. All other failures I have seen are the result of the electronics section running too hot causing capacitor failure, particularly electro and EMI suppression caps. A great many ceiling fixtures are not well suited to CFL or LED lamps cos they trap heat. > It's always the electronics driving it. ** Not true in general. > A power glitch can take > out a LED just as easily as a CFL. ** Power glitch = what ?? A line voltage spike lasting less than a mS or a hit by lighting ? The typically 4 to 22uF electro in the DC supply absorbs brief spikes nicely and most indirect effects of lightning too. .... Phil |
| "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>: Jan 03 01:33PM +1100 "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:TtidndKcQb6NoDrJnZ2dnUU7-S-dnZ2d@earthlink.com... >> be >> surprised if it was due to SMD soldering failure. > I see a lot of LED traffic lights with groups of dead LEDs. Can't say I have ever seen even one. > The one closest to me is on the fourth red LED lamp in the last > couple years and already has some groups that are quite dim. Presumably just a very bad design. |
| "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>: Jan 03 01:37PM +1100 "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message news:mwHpw.359076$Ea7.183939@fx16.am4... >>> http://www.electronics-eetimes.com/en/the-big-lie-about-led-lighting.html?cmp_id=7&news_id=222923405 >> Mindlessly superficial. > Much like you then ... You never could bullshit your way out of a wet paper bag. |
| "Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com>: Jan 03 01:41PM +1100 "Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message news:htfeaa9rp9rc028ei8e7phd31i20rq4b2o@4ax.com... > manipulation (weird voltage rating on the caps). With today's heavily > computerized design and modeling tools, it is possible to design for a > specific lifetime. Bullshit. > guess(tm) is that he's frustrated by the aforementioned penny counting > cost and lifetime reductions and wanted an indirect way to point out > the problem without appears to be a conspiratorial wacko like me. Much more likely he doesn't actually have a fucking clue about the basics. > My best guess(tm) here is that he's still having problems adjusting > to LED lighting and needs a new reason to not use LED lighting. > Am I at least close? Nope. |
| amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Jan 02 03:12PM -0600 On 1/1/2015 4:52 AM, Phil Allison wrote: > ** Well, you could buy him a wet suit, snorkel and spear gun. > Then he could make his living out of "floundering" .... > ... Phil Cute little play on words. I'm surrounded by people earning money fishing, a few are doing very, some making a living, and most don't own a car and live with someone else when the boat isn't out. Some of those could have a little if they didn't drink and use drugs when they hit land. (not saying they don't take them with them fishing) He has not shown interest in fishing, and that's ok. 40 year old fishermen look like they're 55. Mikek --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. http://www.avast.com |
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