| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 19 12:19AM Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? |
| Ashton Crusher <demi@moore.net>: Sep 18 06:47PM -0700 On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm >http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles >etc. >My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? My guess is that anytime something was connected to the diagnostic connector the car turned on all the emissions systems. I know that here in AZ they have been doing the emissions test for cars for quite a few years now by plugging into the diagnostic connector and reading the computer looking for pending codes that haven't turned on the CEL. If you have more then a couple pending codes you fail. My PT is a 2009 model and it's always been tested that way so the time frame is certainly doable. |
| Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net>: Sep 18 10:45PM -0400 On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: > http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles > etc. > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? I found that interesting for two things. I assume the car's computer knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get caught or ratted out. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 19 04:42AM On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: > I also find it interesting that a large allegedly reputable company > would do something intentional to cheat like that. Too easy to get > caught or ratted out. According to the news reports, VW admitted culpability. If I were the owner of the affected cars, I would NOT bring them in for the recall, since it's not a safety issue. They will definitely lose performance after the "fix" (while they will also do worse on emissions testing results). It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I think, because of those two results. Do you agree? Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 19 04:45AM On Fri, 18 Sep 2015 22:45:53 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: > I assume the car's computer > knows an instrument is plugged in so it changes the program. Very few states use OBD emissions testing, and certainly California doesn't yet, where California is fining VW along with the EPA. http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogcheck/march09/transitioning_to_obd_only_im.pdf Most use tailpipe testing. Some, like California, run the car through the Federal Test Procedure on a dynomometer. Given thats at least three different procedures (where each state can easily be different), I don't see *how* the engine computer *knows* it's being tested for emissions. Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car knows it is being tested. |
| mike <ham789@netzero.net>: Sep 18 10:12PM -0700 On 9/18/2015 9:42 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: > think, because of those two results. > Do you agree? > Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? Will you have any choice? If the test procedure for those cars is changed to test the "real" emissions, they will FAIL. If you care about air quality, you have to do that. Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. You want VW to FIX the problem consistently with the original driveablilty and economy. Since that's likely not possible, what do you do now? Force them to replace the whole car? Fix the emissions by reprogramming the computer (Let the air quality test people enforce owner compliance. Maybe require a recall complete document. Maybe require VW to supply a zillion adapters to make the tests right.) AND refund the owner the current (pre-disclosure) bluebook value of the vehicle...let that be the fine and paid to the people actually financially harmed? That sounds like a simple solution that puts the cash where it's needed and fixes the emissions and hits VW where it hurts. No fuss, no muss, no new laws, just enforce the existing ones. It's a win-win...except for VW. OR we could just Fine them billions and fritter it away wherever such fines are frittered? Do nothing and get a better gas mask? |
| "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>: Sep 19 05:30AM -0400 Ewald Böhm wrote: > being tested for emissions. > Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car > knows it is being tested. How do you figure that "almost no states use OBD" testing. In fact most of the states do not use a dyno any longer. Alaska, Arizona, California (in areas that require "enhanced" emissions testing), Colorado, Connecticut, Georgia, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maine, Massachusetts, Missouri (St. Louis), Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, Oregon, Texas (Houston and Dallas/Ft. Worth), Utah (Salt Lake City), Vermont, Washington and Wisconsin, New Jersey, New York (in areas that require emissions testing), Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh and Philadelphia) and Virginia ALL use some type of OBD II testing, some use both OBD II and tailpipe. As to how it knows it's being tested. Simple, as soon as the OBD test link gets plugged into the port it starts asking the ECM which protocol it communicates with. Emissions testing uses a specific test protocol, that doesn't query ALL of the systems on the vehicle. Easy enough to tell the ECM - When this protocol is queried activate this programming. No different than the way software is set up in some cars to change the driving parameters based on different "modes" or valet keys or key fob type. -- Steve W. |
| "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>: Sep 19 05:31AM -0400 Ewald Böhm wrote: > being tested for emissions. > Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car > knows it is being tested. http://obdclearinghouse.com/index.php -- Steve W. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 19 02:47AM -0700 >"Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since >2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions >ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. " THAT IS NOT HOW IT WORKS. When there is not enough exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) there are more oxides or nitrogen produced because of the higher peak combustion temperature. The EGR valve, by lettting in exhaust which is oxygen starved atmosphere, lowers the burning tmperature of the mixture, and thus "burns" less nirogen into N2O. You had it backwards. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 19 02:50AM -0700 I mean you mean that they only turn ON the EGR for the test. I am not saying you are wrong in your mind (well) I am asking, did you mistype that ? But really the EGR reduces N2O, so logically ... |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Sep 19 08:25AM -0400 On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote: > think, because of those two results. > Do you agree? > Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? I'm likely mistaken, but my gut sense is that lower emissions means lower performance, and lower mileage. My guess is that the "fix" will be a downgrade of some kind. - . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 19 05:44AM -0700 On 9/18/2015 5:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: > http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles > etc. > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? Can't speak for all states, but in California one of the first steps in an emissions test is for the codes to be read via the OBD-II port. They won't even proceed to the tailpipe test if there are incomplete self-tests on the vehicle (I ran into this once when I brought a vehicle in just after I changed the car battery). It would be rather simple for the vehicle's computer to note that the OBD-II port was active and to change the emissions system settings for the next 30 minutes to an hour. I suspect that most states with smog tests read the codes via the OBD-II port prior to proceeding with tailpipe testing. My brother-in-law had a Smog Pros franchise for many years and just sold it last month. In some cases he would do pre-tests prior to hooking to the state's computer so a vehicle could be repaired before being labeled a gross polluter. A VW TDI would never pass a pre-test via the EGA (exhaust gas analyzer unless the codes had been read first. But I doubt he ever had done a pre-test on a VW TDI. He told me that once he had a vehicle that was only slightly out of compliance and he offered to repair it for $40. The owner declined, saying he would fix it himself. Without an EGA that really isn't a good idea, but the owner left then came back for his free retest under the "Pass or Retest Free." So he did the retest and now the vehicle was so far out of compliance that it was a gross polluter. The owner then wanted to pay $40 for the repair and have it tested again but it was too late. He could get the repairs done but the vehicle's status had been sent to the state and now the owner had to take the car to a different "Test-Only" smog check station and pay again. He also would have to now get a smog check every year instead of every two years (that requirement is no longer in effect). |
| Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com>: Sep 19 01:17PM On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote: > Do you agree? > Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their > cars? Possibly the insurance companies might deny liability for any claims if the car has not been maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of 'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts. |
| "Dean Hoffman" <dh0496@windstream.net>: Sep 19 08:40AM -0500 > emissions, they will FAIL. > If you care about air quality, you have to do that. > Here in Oregon, you don't get your license plates renewed if you fail. Some cut. Some states, like Nebraska, do no testing. We had some testing for horns, lights, etc. back in the 70s, but dropped it. I think the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in states with no testing. -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
| "THE COLONEL, Ph.D" <ima_phd_two@hotartrs.edu>: Sep 19 07:11AM -0700 "EwaldBöhm" wrote in message news:mti9lu$jb$1@news.mixmin.net... Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests since 2009 to 2015 by turning off the EGR to lower nitrogen oxide emissions ONLY when the car was being tested for emissions. REFERENCES: http://blog.ucsusa.org/volkswagen-caught-cheating-vehicle-recall-887 http://www.engineering.com/AdvancedManufacturing/ArticleID/10688/VW-Caught-Cheating-on-EPA-Tests.aspx http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles etc. My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? My question is HOW did they name you ewald? LOL |
| "." <.@dot.com>: Sep 19 09:36AM -0500 On 9/19/2015 8:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: > the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. > I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in > states with no testing. Passenger car testing of any type has ALWAYS been a scam and is enacted for generating revenue. Nothing more, nothing less. "Unsafe" cars have NEVER been a significant proximate cause of accidents nor does smog testing of these vehicles lead to measurably cleaner air. These two concerns are best addressed at time of manufacture. |
| Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net>: Sep 19 10:39AM -0400 On 9/19/2015 12:42 AM, Ewald Böhm wrote: > think, because of those two results. > Do you agree? > Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? You can feel good that the spotted owl is not choking on your fumes. The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing will be able to tell. |
| Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net>: Sep 19 10:45AM -0400 On 9/19/2015 9:17 AM, Cursitor Doom wrote: > recommendations? They're well known for trying any get-outs they can and > the courts generally find in favour of them due to the doctrine of > 'utmost good faith' which applies to insurance contracts. Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil change? Dirty air filter? |
| "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com>: Sep 19 12:12PM -0400 Ed Pawlowski wrote: > The only way to force you to get the fix is if the car will no longer > pass unless it was done. I don't know if the eqipment doing th testing > will be able to tell. Sure will. You have to enter the VIN into the system to start the inspection. IF the EPA requires a recall to reflash the ECM to remove that software and "correct" the problem, that would have to be done at a dealer. They will track completed vehicles by VIN. The state can just flag ALL those vehicles. You pull in, they plug in the tester, and your VIN doesn't show on the "recall complete" list. You don't get inspected. That has happened before for other recalls. I'm betting the fix will be to re-flash the ECM software to remove the "switch". Then run each one through the full EPA test regardless of registration state. That because this if a federal law that was broken. What will be fun will be watching all the johnny racer types who modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so they should pay a fine as well". -- Steve W. |
| "." <.@dot.com>: Sep 19 11:21AM -0500 On 9/19/2015 11:12 AM, Steve W. wrote: > modified the cars by removing emissions gear and "tuning" the ECM. VW > could actually show them to the EPA and say "THEY removed the systems so > they should pay a fine as well". When has the EPA ever gone after individual passenger car vehicle owners? |
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