- EPA caught VW cheating - how does the car know it's being tested? - 15 Updates
- Tantalum Capacitors - 6 Updates
- Before it's put on a slow boat from China - 4 Updates
| "." <.@dot.com>: Sep 22 12:03PM -0500 On 9/22/2015 10:08 AM, Roger Blake wrote: > all in a day's work. There's no doubt that what VW did was bad, but > the outcry seems out of proportion given the routine misdeeds of > the State. What a goof! |
| Winston_Smith <invalid@butterfly.net>: Sep 22 06:19PM On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote: > Apparently Volkswagen/Audi cheated on the USA emissions tests Apparently 11 million cars are affected! Basically one in four cars in Europe also had the cheatware installed! http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html "the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests." |
| Ablang <ablang@usa.com>: Sep 22 06:21PM Ewald Böhm wrote: > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? How Did the System Work? http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/09/22/business/international/vw-volkswagen-emissions-explainer.html |
| Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net>: Sep 22 02:47PM -0400 On 9/22/2015 2:19 PM, Winston_Smith wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/23/business/international/volkswagen-diesel-car-scandal.html > "the company said that 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide > were equipped with software that was used to cheat on emissions tests." Boggles the mind. "Oh shit, we got caught" |
| Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>: Sep 22 01:58PM -0500 Jack Myers wrote: > I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the > fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are > stationary. That seems plausible to me. Not all dynos work that way. I would expect such a dyno to drive the stability/ABS systems crazy, possibly SLAMMING on the brakes or other actions. (Most cars today are FRONT wheel drive, so the case would be the front wheels turning and the back stationary. For rear wheel drive trucks, of course, it is the opposite case. on these, it would be VERY hard to keep the truck on the rear wheel only dyno. If it started to drift to either side, the steering wheel could not get the tires centered back on the treadmill.) On such vehicles, it might be necessary to shut down the stability/ABS systems to even do these tests, which would clue in any test detection software. As for how the software could tell, this gives me an idea! The dynos have some considerable inertia, but it is likely much less that the inertia involved in accelerating the car to 60 MPH. So, the software might detect VERY easy acceleration to highway speed as a sign of a dyno test. This might also look like accelerating down a long hill, but if it goes on too long, it indicates minimal wind resistance. If you are cruising at 60 MPH with 4 HP effort, that would be a DEAD GIVEAWAY you are on a dyno! The emissions test dynos probably cannot absorb the output of a big car's engine to give it the normal highway load. That can be a LOT of power that you have to absorb for several minutes. Jon |
| Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>: Sep 22 02:10PM -0500 Jack Black wrote: >> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for >> emissions? > http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf WOW, that's QUITE a document!! Thanks for the link! Jon |
| NoSpamForMe <NoSpamForMe@g.mail>: Sep 22 04:49PM -0400 On 9/18/2015 8:19 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: > http://hothardware.com/news/vw-intentionally-programmed-engine-software-to-cheat-emissions-tests-forced-by-epa-to-recall-482k-vehicles > etc. > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt. I would expect VW to program it's black boxes to use the minimum fuel for a given situation. If the car is on a dyno, there would be no wind resistance to push against so the fuel system *should* lower the fuel flow. I'd expect the same behavior if I was rolling down a mountain grade. Sheeeesh! |
| "Dean Hoffman" <dh0496@windstream.net>: Sep 22 04:04PM -0500 On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 08:37:44 -0500, Mayayana <mayayana@invalid.nospam> wrote: > of the woodwork to support "the company that denies > global warming". But VW customers are almost a > cult following, and mostly liberal. The Justice Department reached an agreement with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100 people died. I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy are running the Justice Department. -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
| Ashton Crusher <demi@moore.net>: Sep 22 02:22PM -0700 >Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code >needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the >government inspectors. I don't see the logic of this. The purpose of the code is to produce a specific level of emissions. As the EPA found, and I doubt it was hard, the on the road emissions didn't match what was produced during dynamometer testing. How would anyone realistically look at the code and be able to figure out that it "worked" as far as controlling emissions? You can't, you can only tell if it "works" by measuring what comes out the tailpipe. Sure, a good code reader, if they had the time to look thru god knows how many lines of code, *might* spot a weird program execution loop but that it highly doubtful and certainly not a sure thing. And even if they did, it would not prove that the emissions out the tailpipe FAILED, it would only show that someone put some weird stuff in the code. You would still need to measure actual emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements. |
| "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net>: Sep 22 02:25PM -0700 > > fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are > > stationary. That seems plausible to me. > Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense. Oops! Right-o. What do you want to bet that the source code has this feature documented as a special low-torque mode to facititate getting out of snow banks? |
| kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey): Sep 22 06:20PM -0400 >emissions out the tailpipe FAILED, it would only show that someone put >some weird stuff in the code. You would still need to measure actual >emissions to see if the car met the emissions requirements. It's true that the proof is in the pudding and actual emissions measurements tell the real story, but you cannot realistically measure emissions under every possible driving circumstance, so at some point the test will need to be simplified, and every test that is simplified will have a loophole. However, seeing source code allows you to figure out what that loophole is when the measurements don't make sense, and of course it also allows you to determine intent. Booleans with name like EPA_ENFORCEMENT and SMOG_MODE might be a giveaway too... --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
| "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>: Sep 22 06:28PM -0400 | It seems like everyone here is on a VW witch hunt. The VW executives admitted to the EPA that they were scamming the tests. Try reading the news. |
| "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>: Sep 22 06:32PM -0400 | The Justice Department reached an agreement | with GM over the faulty ignition switches. Prosecution | is deferred and the GM execs promise to be goodie two | shoes. http://preview.alturl.com/ctzff Over 100 | people died. | I don't think Jeff Foxworthy or Larry the Cable Guy | are running the Justice Department. | I'd forgotten about the GM issue. It's hardly surprising these things happen when the executives in charge have no liability. Even the companies often find the deals to be profitable. If a company cuts corners to save $100 million and gets fined $20 million, with no arrests, then that seems to be a good business plan. |
| "Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>: Sep 22 06:37PM -0400 | Arrests will do nothing. I don't see how you can look at it that way. If executives were held crimially liable for corporate law breaking then very little of it would happen. It's the difference between *maybe* risking their bonus and definitely risking years in jail. As long as the corporation is treated as an able, non-human party, and punished financially, that's an implicit statement that we as a society recognize no legal or ethical requirements for people doing business. |
| Frank <"frank "@frank.net>: Sep 22 06:32PM -0400 On 9/19/2015 9:40 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote: > the testers hollered too loud about the low testing fee allowed. > I wonder how many of the non-compliant vehicles will end up in > states with no testing. They test here in DE but plug into the computer to do it, not just sniff the tail pipe. Would guess our computer would be fooled too. Testing is also static without running load which I would assume EPA did. |
| bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net>: Sep 22 03:34PM -0400 So I'm working on repairing a Korg MS2000B synthesizer for a friend with a dead power supply. Here's the service manual: http://www.loscha.com/scans/Korg_MS2000_Service_Manual.pdf The first thing I notice when looking inside is that the small SMT 100uF 10V tantalum capacitor C109 has completely vacated - it appears to be gone, blown right off the board. There are some little fragments rattling around in the case. I have little experience with tantalum capacitors. Any suggestions for a more reliable replacement? |
| "Tom Miller" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Sep 22 03:39PM -0400 "bitrex" <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net> wrote in message news:5601ad59$0$5917$4c5ecfc7@frugalusenet.com... > around in the case. > I have little experience with tantalum capacitors. Any suggestions for a > more reliable replacement? Use 2.5 times the applied voltage or more. Or use an aluminum electrolytic 2 - 3 times capacitance. |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 22 12:56PM -0700 On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 15:34:51 -0400, bitrex >rattling around in the case. >I have little experience with tantalum capacitors. Any suggestions for >a more reliable replacement? I don't think there's a reliability issue here. C109 (located on the Power / MIDI board schematic, is the initial output filter capacitor in a 3.3V switching power supply. There are other 100 uf caps surrounding it, but it seems to be the only tantalum cap, which suggests that the designer needed some specific characteristic of the cap to make things work. Methinks a change of capacitor type might not be such a great idea. What would make the cap explode? My guess(tm) is that someone plugged in a wrong voltage power supply, which blew up FET (F1) which then applied overvoltage to the tantalum. It much have been quite a large jolt as tantalums using produce a low resistance "short" which then gets hot and starts smoking toxic fumes. I would look around for other parts in the power supply section that may be been destroyed, such as the other caps along the 3.3V rail. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net>: Sep 22 04:09PM -0400 On 9/22/2015 3:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > gets hot and starts smoking toxic fumes. I would look around for > other parts in the power supply section that may be been destroyed, > such as the other caps along the 3.3V rail. I notice now that there seems to be some very light heat discoloration around the common mode choke L10-L11-L12. I don't see anything immediately wrong with F1 and it passes the "smell test" so I dunno. |
| John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com>: Sep 22 01:40PM -0700 On Tue, 22 Sep 2015 12:56:56 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote: >gets hot and starts smoking toxic fumes. I would look around for >other parts in the power supply section that may be been destroyed, >such as the other caps along the 3.3V rail. Dry-slug tantalums across power rails are bad news. High dV/dT literally ignites them; MnO2 is the oxidizer and tantalum is the fuel. Derate them 3:1 on voltage, or use something else. Polymer aluminums are good, and some come in a tantalum-like surface mount package. |
| Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk>: Sep 22 11:18PM +0100 On 22/09/2015 21:40, John Larkin wrote: > literally ignites them; MnO2 is the oxidizer and tantalum is the fuel. > Derate them 3:1 on voltage, or use something else. Polymer aluminums > are good, and some come in a tantalum-like surface mount package. +1 Cheers -- Syd |
| "Ralph Mowery" <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Sep 22 12:54PM -0400 "amdx" <nojunk@knology.net> wrote in message news:mts093$cem$1@dont-email.me... > I have found an axial lead cap, for $0.50 plus $6.95 shipping. > But I'd prefer a radial lead. > Have any other sources? You might try ebay at this number. It is 100 volts but going up in voltage should be ok. There are others if you don't mind higher voltage. 321699248915 |
| amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Sep 22 11:59AM -0500 On 9/22/2015 11:54 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote: > You might try ebay at this number. It is 100 volts but going up in voltage > should be ok. There are others if you don't mind higher voltage. > 321699248915 Yes, That is the axial I found. They sell it on their website for $0.50 with $6.95 shipping. Thanks, Mikek |
| Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat>: Sep 22 01:51PM -0400 >I have found an axial lead cap, for $0.50 plus $6.95 shipping. >But I'd prefer a radial lead. >Have any other sources? $1.45 in singles for a Panasonic 2.7uF 100V film cap from Digikey. ECQ-E1275KF Radial lead (but not a can). --sp -- Best regards, Spehro Pefhany Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8 Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48 |
| amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Sep 22 12:56PM -0500 On 9/22/2015 12:51 PM, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> Have any other sources? > $1.45 in singles for a Panasonic 2.7uF 100V film cap from Digikey. > ECQ-E1275KF Radial lead (but not a can). Yes, I see I have other options, I was hoping to install a cap that looks like the original 1982, 10mm x 22mm capacitor. I may not get what I want. Thanks, Mikek |
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