| micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>: Sep 20 03:30AM -0400 In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:42:00 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm >It's a lose:lose situation for the car owner to get the car "fixed", I >think, because of those two results. >Do you agree? Only with half of what you say. They will do t he same on the emissions test, and continue to pass unless something is broken. But yes, that means they'll get lower mileage, not just during the test. >Is there anything "good" that will happen if the owners "fix" their cars? VW should pay them for the extra gas they will have to buy, and pay them for the time it takes to go to the gas station and get it. |
| Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com>: Sep 20 11:21AM On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:45:01 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote: > Do you know of any claims denied because the owner did not get an oil > change? Dirty air filter? Sorry, I should have mentioned that the position I set out is that under English law and other jurisdictions will no doubt differ. |
| micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>: Sep 20 03:46AM -0400 In alt.home.repair, on Sat, 19 Sep 2015 04:45:38 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm >being tested for emissions. >Since almost no states use the OBD method, that's why I asked how the car >knows it is being tested. Maryland used OBD on cars new enough. That includes my 2000 car, but I don't think included my 1995 car. (For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or my car. |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 20 07:56AM -0700 On 9/19/2015 10:51 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: >> of the states do not use a dyno any longer. > I just had mine tested, in California, and they used a dyno. > No OBD hookup whatsoever. How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner? You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years). That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were passing cars without checking for pending codes. |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 20 07:54AM -0700 On 9/19/2015 10:54 PM, Ewald Böhm wrote: > monitors (the numbers of each are depending on the year of the vehicle), > it is absolutely NOT a requirement to run the OBD scan. > Look it up. I did. You said it yourself. You can't pass emissions with pending codes. They have to run a scan to check this. That's why before they even stick the exhaust gas analyzer into the tail pipe they read the codes. No point proceeding with the test if there are unset codes, though if you're paying for the test they will complete it to check for other failure modes as well. At least that's the procedure for the four vehicles I have had smogged every two years for the past 20 or so years. Also the procedure at the repair shop my relative operated until he sold it last month, and he probably did 3000 or so smog checks per year. I guess you could claim that it is not a requirement to run a scan, it's just a requirement that you can't pass with pending codes and the only way to check for pending codes is to do a scan. If there is another way to check for pending codes other than doing a scan you would be correct, but I don't think that there is. |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 20 08:00AM -0700 > many instances of people - hobbyists and mechanics alike, screwing > with emmission controls in an attempt to defeat them and get better > mileage and power, and getting (usually) neither. That was the big problem in California. A significant number of out-of-compliance vehicles were causing most of the pollution. Even though percentage-wise the number of such vehicles was small, in absolute numbers it was large enough to cause a problem. The "catalytic converter test pipe" was popular for a while. But as you said, in most cases, all the tampering with emissions controls did not have any effect on mileage and/or power. |
| "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com>: Sep 20 07:41AM -0700 . wrote: > Earth and serendipitously, by the failure of his early attempts > to create a clean room, discovered the grave neurotoxin > danger poisoning us all. Thank you for that little bit of education. |
| kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey): Sep 20 12:12PM -0400 >> No OBD hookup whatsoever. >How did they check for pending codes if they did not use a code scanner? >You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years). They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been logged. In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance, that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for inspection. In some places they do not. --scott -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:08PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 03:46:05 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> wrote: >(For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when >I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or >my car. Officially, all cars 1996 and newer must be OBD2 compliant, but most jurisdictions using OBD2 for E-Testing only start at 1997 models because some 1996 models were not fully compliant. Only a very few 1995 vehicles had OBD2 capability as 1995 was "pre-standard" |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:03PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 00:18:01 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com> wrote: >> And "selective enforcement" can be, and is, applied to private >> passenger vehicles as well - at least here in Ontario. >It is in NY as well. Why people would not remove the "bypoass boxes" to return the vehicle to stock before submitting for E-Test is beyond me - - - . Same with "power tuners". They have the capability of storing more than one tune - |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:35PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 08:00:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote: >The "catalytic converter test pipe" was popular for a while. But as you >said, in most cases, all the tampering with emissions controls did not >have any effect on mileage and/or power. Didn't have any significant positive effect on mileage and or power. And the "test pipe" stopped being an option in 1996 with OBD2 testing pre and post cat O2 - unless you bought an O2 fake-out device that generated a fake O2 signal (actually, 2 signals ----)- which caused other problems (genrally a lot poorer fuel mileage and not much power improvement, if any) |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:32PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:56:20 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote: >You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years). >That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were >passing cars without checking for pending codes. In ontario the testers are directly connected to a central computer and it is virtually impossible to go from stem 1 to step 3 without completing step 2 first. A number of years back, some crooks were running a "good" vehicle through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty quick. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:37PM -0400 >>You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years). >They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been >logged. Except "pending"codes don't turn on the CEL, and the CEL does not indicate if monitors have been "set" |
| Mitch Kaufmann <mitch284@outlook.com>: Sep 20 04:29PM -0400 On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote: > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/ The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 20 08:21PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:54:12 -0700, sms wrote: > You said it yourself. You can't pass emissions with pending codes. They > have to run a scan to check this. You have a good point. I need to recheck my facts. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 20 08:20PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:12:31 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote: > They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been > logged. That. |
| Sofa Slug <sofaslug@invalid.invalid>: Sep 20 02:03PM -0700 On 9/20/2015 1:29 PM, Mitch Kaufmann wrote: >> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? > http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/ > The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges. According to the LA Times: "Rather than meet the standards, the EPA says VW sneaked in the defeat device software to detect when the car is hooked up to a dynamometer, a machine that measures emissions. When emissions are being measured, the defeat device tells the car to operate at "dyno calibration," or full emission control levels, to meet the standards." "At all other times, however, the software sets the engine to run on "road calibration," allowing the excessive emissions. How can the program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving the car, and thus it is likely being tested." |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 20 03:49PM -0700 On 9/20/2015 9:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: > In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance, > that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for > inspection. In some places they do not. Well in California they definitely check via the OBD-II port. I had replaced a battery and there were no dashboard lights indicating anything. The first thing they did was to do a scan for codes. The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information. |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 20 03:57PM -0700 > through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not > pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty > quick. In California, one "smog check factory" in L.A. got caught because the state checked registered addresses of the vehicles and wondered why so many vehicles were being smogged at this one particular shop when their registered address was so far away. Few people will drive 25 miles in L.A. to get a smog check at a particular shop. My brother-in-law regularly had inspectors come into his shop with test vehicles to be smogged. They would reveal who they were after the test. He did really well. He got one demerit for not telling the "customer" that they had the option of getting the vehicle repaired at his shop or any shop, even though he did ask if they wanted it to be repaired. But he still passed the inspection. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 07:57PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote: >The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of >manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the >pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information. Actually it is not pending codes that are the issue. It is the readiness monitors.. Can't remember how many readiness monitors there are - but there's a catalyst monitor, a O2 sensor monitor, and EGR monitors, and O2sensor heater and cat heater monitor on some vehicles. These are the intermittent monitors that need to be "set" . Setting the monitor just means they have been through one or more test sequences and have aquired valid data.. The rest of the monitors are contimuous monitors - misfire, component, and fuel system, nonitors. The evap monitor, for instance, is only "valid" in a fixed temperature range, and with the tank between something like 1/4 and 3/4 full (not 100% sure of the actual numbrs). If you reset the codes or replace the battery on a vehicle with the tank full or almost empty you can NOT set the readiness monitor for the evap system - so virtually ALL OBD2 based emission test facilities will allow at least one monitor to be un-set or not ready. If you know what code is coming up, and want to "cheat" the system, if you can avoid setting that particular monitor, while setting all the others, you can sometimes get a vehicle to pass. You need to understand the drive cycle and what can cause the monitor you want dissabled to fail to set. (and it needs to be an intermittent or non-continuous monitor. The usual culprits are Cat, evap, or EGR. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:44PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms wrote: > The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of > manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the > pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information. It's usually documented as the FTP. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:47PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:03:08 -0700, Sofa Slug wrote: > program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering > wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving > the car, and thus it is likely being tested." Finally! Someone who both understood the question, and who posited an answer! Of all the posters, you're the ONLY one who understood the question! |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:57PM On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote: > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? The best answer to the question seems to be here, as noted by Sofa Slug: http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/ http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html "How can the program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving the car, and thus it is likely being tested." Apparently VW lied at first, & apparently they can no longer sell the cars: "The cheating came to light when the California Air Resources Board and the EPA pressed Volkswagen for an explanation for disparities found between lab tests and road tests of its vehicle emissions. The agencies didn't find the technical reasons offered by VW to be convincing and said they would not issue certificates allowing 2016 models to be sold until the automaker offered an adequate explanation. "Only then did VW admit it had designed and installed a defeat device in these vehicles," the EPA said. VW said it was cooperating with the investigation but otherwise had no comment." It's interesting that VW didn't fess up until they were forced to. |
| Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen <vchenghcv102@hotmail.com.hk>: Sep 21 12:51PM > VW sneaked in the defeat > device software to detect when the car is hooked up to a dynamometer What I'm surprised at is that each state can have a *different* procedure. In California, they use the dyno, but in many less technical states, they still use the dumb procedures. This explains how they noticed there was testing going on. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/ But that only works for the intelligent states. How did they also fool the low-tech states like NJ, Kentucky & Kansas? |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:46PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:29:30 -0400, Mitch Kaufmann wrote: >> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? > http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/ > The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges. That answers what. But it doesn't answer HOW. |
| You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to sci.electronics.repair+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. |
No Response to "Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 1 topic"
Post a Comment