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"M. Stradbury" <mstradbury@example.com>: Dec 22 12:04AM Is it true (or an urban myth) that a swimmer would be sucked under (presumably to drown) when a capital ship sinks?

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 21 04:49PM -0800 Yes. Dead center-of-mass is near enough a vacuum that the eddy will trap anything close and drag it to the bottom.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca>: Dec 21 06:51PM -0700 M. Stradbury wrote: > Is it true (or an urban myth) that a swimmer would be sucked > under (presumably to drown) when a capital ship sinks?   Like toilet bowl water swirls.

Micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>: Dec 21 08:56PM -0500 On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 00:04:23 -0000 (UTC), "M. Stradbury"   >Is it true (or an urban myth) that a swimmer would be sucked >under (presumably to drown) when a capital ship sinks?   I would think so. I was in a 6-man rubber raft that went over a small falls and under water and though I wasn't tied to the raft, I went under water too. How much more so with a big ship.   Something about traveling and being on my own made me fearless however and I confidently waited, with my eyes open iirc, until I popped up again a few seconds later. Without the raft.   This was the Dranze River in France, just east of Geneva, Switzerland.

Micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>: Dec 21 08:58PM -0500 On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:51:29 -0700, Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:   >> Is it true (or an urban myth) that a swimmer would be sucked >> under (presumably to drown) when a capital ship sinks?   >Like toilet bowl water swirls.   I don't think the swirl is the part that matters. If you pour a half-bucket of water in a toilet, it will drain without swirling. It's the draining and emptying that matters.

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca>: Dec 21 07:02PM -0700 Micky wrote: > and I confidently waited, with my eyes open iirc, until I popped up > again a few seconds later. Without the raft.   > This was the Dranze River in France, just east of Geneva, Switzerland.   Basic fluid mechanics. You know that the swirl direction of opposite of Southern hemisphere. CCW and CW. Rotating earth.

Micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>: Dec 21 10:13PM -0500 On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:02:56 -0700, Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:   >> <mstradbury@example.com> wrote:   >>> Is it true (or an urban myth) that a swimmer would be sucked >>> under (presumably to drown) when a capital ship sinks?   In panic, someone might not hold his breath, and even more likely, he might not take a big enough breath to be able to hold his breath for long, but I would think if one does get a big breath and doesn't panic, he should be able to hold it easily long enough to come to the surface again.   Does it depend on how fat he is how fast he surfaces? Probably. So if you anticipate being on a sinking ship, try to gain weight first. (When my brother was in Viet Nam during the war, my mother wanted him to gain weight to tide him over if he was taken prisoner. He didnt' go on patrol and he wasn't a flier, so the odds were very slim he would be taken prisoner, but other than that, I think she was right. )   >Basic fluid mechanics.   >You know that the swirl direction of opposite of >Southern hemisphere. CCW and CW. Rotating earth.   So I've heard.   Hmm. This post is not in reply to my reply to you where I took issue with the importance of swirling. But I'll answer anyhow.   I'm not doubting that water in toilets swirls, or that water in eddies swirls. I'm saying that swirling water has nothing to do with sucking someone in behind a sinking ship.   In fact the water probably isn't swirling. The forces that make water swirl, in a bathtub for example, are weak compared to the tremendous amount of water that surrounds a large sinking ship. If the ship were not sinking, there would be no swirling, and I don't think sinking an inch every minute is enough to permit or cause swirling.   It's when the weight of the ship and the water it now contains is greater than the weight of the water the whole ship displaces that sinking quickly begins, and at that point there isn't time enough before the ship has totally sunk for substantial swirling to begin. Perhaps not any swirling at all. Note that it takes quite some time to have it begin even in a bathtub.   The stage of sinking slowly can take hours, but when sinking quickly begins, it takes no more than a minute, maybe two.   To beat this to death, I think the thousands of times people get to watch water go down a sink drain overhwhelms their lack of experience with sinking ships. However one can drop or throw rocks in a lake or a river pool, off a pier for example, and see that there is no swirling.   (One could even attach small balls that float to the rock, with some weak "adhesive" that fails when wet, and time how long it takes the balls to return the surface. Varying the depth of the water, or the release time of the "glue", one could measure three data points and extrapolate to a ship and a person, and a person with a life vest.   (Or maybe one doesn't need the rock for all of these experiements. While the water falling into the opening would slow down resurfacing, that water has filled in the hole within a measurable number of seconds, and the real question is, What is the acceleration of a human of given weight and size due to buoyancy, and how long would it take to stop downward travel and cause upward travel, and what would the total time be? All but the downward speed could be extrapolated just from measurements made by releasing floating balls from an underwater device.)

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca>: Dec 21 08:47PM -0700 Micky wrote: > amount of water that surrounds a large sinking ship. If the ship > were not sinking, there would be no swirling, and I don't think > sinking an inch every minute is enough to permit or cause swirling. m > total time be? All but the downward speed could be extrapolated just > from measurements made by releasing floating balls from an underwater > device.)   Hey, couple months ago whale watching boat rolled and sank hit by a big wave West of Vancouver Island, few died and some survived. A couple survived is from Calgary here. They both said they got sucked under and then surfaced. My 2nd uncle is life time Navy man, Captain(ret), ROKN. He said same thing.

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>: Dec 22 02:51PM +1100 On 22/12/2015 11:04 AM, M. Stradbury wrote: > Is it true (or an urban myth) that a swimmer would be sucked > under (presumably to drown) when a capital ship sinks?   Mythbusters tried it, and concluded that there was no significant sucking sown.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvU_dkKdZ0U   Sylvia.

Micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com>: Dec 21 11:00PM -0500 On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 20:47:56 -0700, Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:   >> device.)   >Hey, couple months ago whale watching boat rolled and sank hit by a big >wave West of Vancouver Island, few died and some survived. A couple   I heard abou tthat.   >survived is from Calgary here. They both said they got sucked under and >then surfaced. My 2nd uncle is life time Navy man, Captain(ret), ROKN. >He said same thing.   I didn't hear about that. Good to know. Should make OP happy to know too.   Just remember to pretend you're in the doctor's office, suck in a big breath and hold it.

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca>: Dec 21 09:06PM -0700 Sylvia Else wrote: > sucking sown.   > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvU_dkKdZ0U   > Sylvia.   So when ship is abandoned, crews jump off the ship, they hang around the sinking ship, right? They always swim away from the ship as much as they can. Ask any sailors.

Sam E <why.should.this@be.email.invalid>: Dec 21 10:10PM -0600 On 12/21/2015 07:51 PM, Tony Hwang wrote: >> Is it true (or an urban myth) that a swimmer would be sucked >> under (presumably to drown) when a capital ship sinks?   > Like toilet bowl water swirls.   I think there was a TV show where a kid called a lot of people in places like Australia, to ask them which way the water swirls when they flush.   -- 4 days until the winter celebration (Friday December 25, 2015 12:00:00 AM for 1 day).   "We could believe in God if he shortened the road for the lame, led the blind or fed the starving." [Lemuel K. Washburn, _Is The Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays_]

"M. Stradbury" <mstradbury@example.com>: Dec 22 04:31AM On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:51:29 -0700, Tony Hwang wrote:   > Like toilet bowl water swirls.   A toilet bowl is too small to show the Coriolis effect, but a pool isn't according to Sandlin and Muller.   http://mashable.com/2015/06/04/water-toilet-swirl/#vRjaqfm0bSqs "Derek Muller and Destin Sandlin, the minds behind the Veritasium and Smarter Every Day YouTube channels, respectively, do show that water (and even hurricanes or cycloness) preferentially spins counter-clockwise in the north and clockwise in the south, you just might not be able to see it with your toilet water."

"M. Stradbury" <mstradbury@example.com>: Dec 22 04:36AM On Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:51:47 +1100, Sylvia Else wrote:   > sucking sown.   > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvU_dkKdZ0U   > Sylvia.   Nice find! Will a Sinking Ship Suck You Down with It? | MythBusters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvU_dkKdZ0U   Theory 1: Air mixes with water makes the water less dense, hence sucking you down. Theory 2: Cavities in ship causes water to rush into the ship, hence sucking you down. Theory 3: Ship falling down creates a vortex above it, hence sucking you down.

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>: Dec 22 04:13PM +1100 On 22/12/2015 3:06 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:   > So when ship is abandoned, crews jump off the ship, they hang around the > sinking ship, right? They always swim away from the ship as much as > they can. Ask any sailors.   That's rather circular.   There is a wide spread belief that one can get sucked down, and there's no reason to think sailors have any better knowledge of this than anyone else - it's hardly something most will ever experience - consequently one would expect them to swim away.   Anyway, sucking people down is not the only possible hazard represented by a sinking ship.   Sylvia.

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca>: Dec 21 10:19PM -0700 Sylvia Else wrote:   > Anyway, sucking people down is not the only possible hazard represented > by a sinking ship.   > Sylvia.   Do you have any maritime experience? Worked on any kind of ocean going vessel(s)? Possess any knowledge gained from real life experience?

O <OG@AIOESPAM.COM>: Dec 21 10:06PM -0800 Back then, the reason to get away from the sinking ships was not the suction but the boilers exploding.

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.at.this.address>: Dec 22 06:58PM +1100 On 22/12/2015 4:19 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:   > Do you have any maritime experience? Worked on any kind of ocean > going vessel(s)? Possess any knowledge gained from real life > experience?   Experience of ships? No. How would any of that help in deciding whether the vessel would suck me down if it sank?   Or do you think there's some sort of mechanism that allows enlightenment by osmosis?   Sylvia.

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Dec 21 06:47PM -0800 >> Thanks for the laugh and Merry Christmas. >> G²   >I think happy hannuka(sp) might be more appropriate.   Standards committees were invented well after Judaism. Therefore, spell it any way you find convenient and nobody will complain because there is not one true correct spelling.   >At any rate, Lieberman has alot of good knowledge and experience >and is not stingy with it.   Any rate? I have only one rate. I charge $75/hr no matter what I'm doing. Also, do try to spell my name correctly. There are two "n" letters at the end. One is a spare in case I get rear ended.   >With the exception of a couple of assholes, nobody here has >anything but good to say about him.   I presume you haven't seen some of the email I receive. The most common accusation is that I tend to "humiliate" people. I don't really like to do that, but it works so well that I can't resist.   >I'd pick up some steaks, beers and good smoke and go see him if >he wasn't two fucking thousand miles away in that other planet >they call Califuckingfornia.   I think my last steak was about 10 years ago. I don't do beer or booze because I'm excessively sensitive to alcohol. Smoking killed my mother and several relatives, so that's also out. Fortunately, I have other vices that can be accommodated and do accept bribes.   At the last neighborhood road committee meeting, we ran an informal survey of where everyone had previously lived. I came from Smog Angeles. The rest were from the north-east or great plains. No locals. California is the standard destination for everyone.   >Less crime. But the weather is better than Arizona, where if your >car breaks down they find skeletal remains of your body. If you >haven't been to the dentist they ID you by the VIN on your car.   I live in the mountains. That's now the low rent district, with lots of owner occupied to rental conversions. Anyone that can't take it or fit in, usually moves out after the first winter. Those that remain are better than average neighbors.   >But that is going to change. A good piece of that coast is about >ready to drop off into the ocean.   Nope. The big one is going to raise parts of California. There are people paying taxes on land under the sound end of SF Bay just in case the quake produces some new dry land.   >Rockefellers don't live here, they would go broke. And they ain't >stupid.   >(what did I just say there ?)   Not much. Y'er drifting off topic.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com>: Dec 21 05:23PM > On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 01:55:44 -0800 (PST), jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:   [stuff cut]   > - Most embarrassing moment: When the Chinese clone works better > than the original.   Anybody have good stories of this?

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Dec 21 11:36AM -0800 On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:23:02 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader   >> - Most embarrassing moment: When the Chinese clone works better >> than the original.   >Anybody have good stories of this?   No. I'm taking the 5th ammendment. What you don't know, won't hurt me.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com>: Dec 21 09:02PM >>Anybody have good stories of this?   > No. I'm taking the 5th ammendment. > What you don't know, won't hurt me.   Ha.   Did the unnamed parties steal back some of the enhancements?

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Dec 21 06:29PM -0800 On Mon, 21 Dec 2015 21:02:55 +0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader >> What you don't know, won't hurt me.   >Ha. >Did the unnamed parties steal back some of the enhancements?   Of course, with my help. But when they wanted some of the money they paid me back, I diplomatically declined. Business ethics in many parts of the planet are very different from the US. [Q] What's the difference between a bribe and a commission? [A] A bribe is paid in advance. A commission after. Otherwise, they're the same.   I know of several other cloned products were are better than the original, but I'm not talking and not worried. A fair chunk of my income comes from what I euphemistically call "design reviews"[1].   There are also companies that can't even copy a product and get it right. One favorite is a company that fired its outsourced designers, only to find that the documentation they had supplied with the product was fatally inaccurate. The company then had to reverse engineer their own product. The resulting clone was dead on arrival. I was hired to fix the problem without changing anything. Right. I traced the problem to whomever measured the parts misreading the range setting on the LRC meter. All the values were off by a factor of 10 because someone had removed the range knob, and replaced it rotated by one detent. It was obviously not an accident. After that was fixed, I had to deal with an "improved" PCB that closely matched the schematic, but not quite. The highlight of the project was when one employee, with a very guilty conscience, offered me a bribe to not blame him for any of the problems. I didn't take the money because I thought it might be a trap. It wasn't.     [1] The difficult part is keeping a straight face. I once worked on a BlueGoof wireless speaker system, where the designers had placed the BT chip dead center in the middle of the PCB, located the chip antenna nearby, and put a shield over both. Range was suppose to be about 30 meters minimum, but was only about 0.5 meters. I couldn't believe it, but there it was. It was amazingly difficult for me to NOT burst out laughing during my initial fee negotiations and artificially protracted circuit analysis. I found plenty of other problems and mistakes, so they got their money's worth.     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Cydrome Leader <presence@MUNGEpanix.com>: Dec 21 05:20PM > Fluke I had would start giving totally impossible readings as soon as the > low-bat indicator showed. I guess there was less margin on the voltage > reference. Kind of disappointing.   The fluke meters I have are like that. It's really obnoxious, especially on my latest 87V.

M Philbrook <jamie_ka1lpa@charter.net>: Dec 21 06:45PM -0500 In article <n59cda$env$1@reader1.panix.com>, presence@MUNGEpanix.com says... > > reference. Kind of disappointing.   > The fluke meters I have are like that. It's really obnoxious, especially > on my latest 87V.   I have a 289, 189, 87 and the old process dmm which was/is a POS.   I only got the 289 because of the trending function, the rest of it, well, slow but it is dead on! Jamie

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