- PC Smoke - 13 Updates
- IBM W510 Fan Error FRUNO: 60Y5493 P/N: 60Y4981 - 5 Updates
- Fluke 8060a meter interconnect strip - 7 Updates
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 04 10:06AM -0700 On Wed, 4 May 2016 15:48:55 +1000, Maurice Helwig >Check the smoke Detectors in your house. with that much smoke they >should have gone off. It's not the quantity of smoke, it's how long the PC continues to smoke that makes household detectors go off. I have a smoke detector in my office and home shop. Neither has ever been triggered by transcient smoke signals. Figure on about 15 minutes for ionization and 3 minutes for photoelectric: <http://whnt.com/2012/07/16/smoke-detector-fail-a-taking-action-investigation/> Anyway, a smoke detector is useless for finding the source of the smoke, such as a hot component in the PC. For that, you would need a smoke locator such as an IR camera. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| philo <philo@privacy.net>: May 04 12:53PM -0500 <snip> >> '59 Triumph > AKA as garden hose. Cheaper than a stethoscope. >X Garden hose is too wide, just a small tube will do |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: May 04 03:57PM -0700 Your nose. Might tr some tubing... But that's just an idea. However, if actually saw smoke there is bound to be a burn mark somewhere. Know what ? Before taking it apart, try it again with nothing plugged in to the USBs. It is possible one of them was a dead short. I think alot of them have fuses nut then i doubt that each and every one does. These companies cut costs in some of the strangest places sometimes. In fact I saw one laptop detected USB overcurent in software. That is more prone to fail to protect than fuses. Even moreso now that USB ports put out more power than before. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: May 04 04:04PM -0700 >"Do not try >to turn it on again. " Actually if he really SAW smoke that filled the room he has nothing to lose. Now if he only smelled smoke that is a different story. But once it comes billowing out of there, don't worry about it. He said it did not set off the smoke detectors... Hmm. I think it would if he really saw a roomful of smoke. Or if the nearest detector is near the kitchen the battery might have been removed. The problem with disassembling a laptop is that many "normal" people will not be able to get it back together. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: May 04 04:10PM -0700 >survive whatever the motherboard throws at it). But >there might be a flaw which can damage a spare >supply (like some rail to rail short maybe). " It's a laptop. Ideally it should be fired up on a bench power supply with current limiting - without the battery installed. Most of them take 19 volts. Or fire it up unplugged on the battery alone. Qnd those brink power supplies have limiting so this problem is almost for sure a shorted USB stick. That means he most likely has a bad five volt regulator, and usually those are separate for the USB ports. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: May 04 04:15PM -0700 >"and then soon >after a resistor exploded. It overloaded all components, >killing the RAM, hard disk, modem, CPU. " Exploded resistors do not overload other components, at least not in something like this. What happened is all the damage happened at once. Resistors do not just expode, they explode from overvoltage cauing too much current to flow and it overheats,And sometimes this happend really fast. When that happens you can bet there was overvoltage fed into the unit. If it is not the USB regulators it is the power brick. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: May 04 04:18PM -0700 I read that wrong, got it confused with something else. It is a desktop. My bad. Disregard what I wrote. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: May 04 04:19PM -0700 I read that wrong, got it confused with something else. It is a desktop. My bad. Disregard what I wrote. |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: May 04 04:20PM -0700 I read that wrong, got it confused with something else. It is a desktop. My bad. Disregard what I wrote. |
| "Andy" <N@n.com>: May 05 01:57AM -0400 Interesting facts wrong but its ok:) most good smoke detectors like first alert the only brand i use i have the combo detector both ionization and photoelectric hard wired with battery back up unit. But even my battery only ionization unit that is directly over the pc went off once when a test power supply blew a resistor and the smoke set it off before i could even get to the window to open it to vent the smoke out of the room:) how fast they react ALL DEPENDS on 2 Things AGE OF UNIT all units should be replaced EVERY 10 YEARS. in fact in my state and city it's a code requirement. Second is brand of unit if you get the cheap 8 dollar one at the dollar store yes it wont react as good as the brand name first alert that costs you 20 or more dollars. that is a proven fact. But the 8 dollar one will go off if you boil water on the stove the better unit wont:) -- AL'S COMPUTERS "Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message news:sgakibd5i6on9mjq72fimp0k8jihvs6s1h@4ax.com... |
| Maurice Helwig <maurice_helwig@internode.on.net>: May 05 04:55PM +1000 On 5/05/2016 3:57 PM, Andy wrote: > that is a proven fact. > But the 8 dollar one will go off if you boil water on the stove the better > unit wont:) We had smoke detectors in the control room at work that would activate the fire alarm when the boss would puff on his pipe. If they did not then they were replaced Those were the days before smoking was banned in all buildings and workp laces. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Maurice Helwig ~~~~~~~~~~~~ |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 05 12:12AM -0700 >Interesting facts wrong but its ok:) Nice diplomacy, but they're either facts, or they're wrong. Can't have both. >most good smoke detectors like first alert the only brand i use i have the >combo detector both ionization and photoelectric hard wired with battery >back up unit. The combo units are best. The photoelectric detectors are faster but ionization detectors are more sensitive. The combination also decreases false alarms as a real fire will trigger both, but chemical and condensation problems will only trigger one or the other. >off once when a test power supply blew a resistor and the smoke set it off >before i could even get to the window to open it to vent the smoke out of >the room:) Egads. How much smoke did this resistor generate? What physical size resistor? When I get a resistor too hot, it usually makes a small puff of smoke before it blows. Unless it were wrapped in an oily rag or the resistor was unusually large, there's not enough material in a small ( <1/4 watt) resistor to produce much smoke. >how fast they react ALL DEPENDS on 2 Things AGE OF UNIT all units should be >replaced EVERY 10 YEARS. in fact in my state and city it's a code >requirement. Yep. However, the problem was not delay time or sensitivity. It was that many battery powered smoke alarms were just sitting there with dead batteries. Replacing the battery once per year was considered a major imposition to many homeowners. To solve that problem, the manufacturers were required to install use a non-replaceable Lithium battery, in trade for requiring the homeowner to buy all new battery operated smoke detectors. >store yes it wont react as good as the brand name first alert that costs you >20 or more dollars. >that is a proven fact. Well, I prefer Kidde brand to First Alert. The main reason is that I wanted a photoelectric detector with built in carbon monoxide detection ability. I also wanted something that would not false on kitchen cooking and my wood burning stove. I picked the Kidde Model P3010K-CO ($40) for the house and shop: <http://www.kidde.com/home-safety/en/us/products/fire-safety/smoke-alarms/p3010k-co/> Ask me in about 8 years and I'll let you know how well they work. I tested one with a galvanized pail full of newspapers. About 4 minutes for the alarm to sound. So far, no falsing from normal cooking or the woodburner. However, when I accidentally set fire to a yam in the microwave, it set off the alarm in about 1 minute after I removed it from the oven: <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/burned-yam.html> In both cases, the house was full of smoke before the alarm finally went off. You might be interested in these stories. The first is from 2007 and is very much out of date. Yet many people still have similar old smoke alarms. Newer alarms are allegedly faster to respond: "Deadly Delay" <http://www.wthr.com/global/Story.asp?s=6552929> Notice that the fastest response was 16 minutes. See Part 2 at: <http://www.wthr.com/global/Story.asp?s=6554435> Test results Test #1 First Alert dual sensor 18:00 First Alert photoelectric 23:38 First Alert ionization 33:45 Kidde ionization 27:16 Kidde dual sensor 28:50 Kidde photoelectric 29:30 Test #2 First Alert photoelectric 16:21 First Alert dual sensor 16:38 First Alert ionization 42:10 Kidde photoelectric 33:30 Kidde dual sensor 34:30 Kidde ionization 38:39 In 2012, the station continued the smoke detector campaign and testing: <http://whnt.com/2012/07/16/smoke-detector-fail-a-taking-action-investigation/> The final result AFTER smoke was present: Ionization: 17:00 minutes Photoelectric: 2:48 seconds Much better, methinks. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Brian Gregory <bvdvgvrvevgvovrvy@gmail.com>: May 05 01:30PM +0100 On 03/05/2016 22:59, Jeff Liebermann wrote: >> I thought it was your nose. >> Michael > If your nose runs, and your feet smell, you're built upside down. At last. All this time I knew something was wrong with me. -- Brian Gregory (in the UK). To email me please remove all the letter vee from my email address. |
| Max Muller <maxmuller@info.gathering>: May 05 04:57AM On Wed, 04 May 2016 04:02:46 -0400, Paul wrote: > Have you verified the fan is a maglev ? The documentation > here, says it doesn't use oil. > http://www.sunon.com/tw/products/pdf/maglev.pdf Thank you for finding that nice 74-page Sunon Maglev fan reference. It's interesting reading, But I need to find a cross reference to figure out which fan it is that is the equivalent of the fan in the Lenovo W510 Thinkpad FRUNO: 60Y5493 P/N: 60Y4981 > area, as being a need for the addition of oil. > And the device might not be designed for > easy maintenance. This youtube video shows how a guy fixed the brushless fan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewbMYAB0qwM The guy took the fan apart, and merely cleaned and lubed the shaft. > If it is custom designed as an OEM item by Sunon, > then there might not be any documentation available > for it. It looks like a bunch of people have disassembled Sunon Maglev fans, cleaned, lubricated, and put back together. This guy literally drops the entire fan into motor oil: https://youtu.be/vkLgqMPmmZg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkLgqMPmmZg |
| Max Muller <maxmuller@info.gathering>: May 05 05:05AM On Fri, 29 Apr 2016 15:21:10 +0100, Mike Tomlinson wrote: > The FRU number (field replaceable unit, IBM-speak for part) is the one you > want. It seems the FRU contains both the heatsink and the fan itself, where I can't imagine anything going wrong with the heatsink. I may try to disassemble the fan and lubricate it as this guy does: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lxvmay2tn0 What I like about this video is that he shows what a good and bad fan spin rate is when you push it with your finger. Mine is more like the bad fan than the good fan. In the videeo, the guy uses alcohol to clean the metal shaft of the fan and he also cleans the hole. He says the lubricant only lasts a month, so it's important to figure out what's a good lubricant. |
| Paul <nospam@needed.com>: May 05 02:32AM -0400 Max Muller wrote: > This guy literally drops the entire fan into motor oil: > https://youtu.be/vkLgqMPmmZg > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkLgqMPmmZg The first thing you notice in the video, is the fan spindle moves easily, when he applied a finger to it. The bearing is not locked. This looks more like an electrical failure, like the two transistor circuit that commutates the field on the brushless DC motor isn't working. There are also small ICs for driving the two windings, ICs with four pins or so, and a similar comment would apply to them. Being brushless, and using things like a Hall probe for position sensing, there really isn't a lot to go wrong electrically. The motor drive uses saturated transistors for low heat dissipation, so the chip driving the motor doesn't need to get hot while it operates. The brass item in the video, does appear to be a bearing. At least to me it does. And not a needle bearing either (as the Sunon PDF might lead you to believe). It looks like a relatively conventional bearing. Similar to the bearing design I see on the cheapest hard drives I own here. (The bearing has the same shape and appearance.) On hard drives, the motor is FDB, the bearing is sealed, two drops of oil circulate continuously inside the hub. The motor can be constrained just on one end, or on both ends. (Some WDC drives lock down the spindle on both ends, even though the oil film is supposed to be providing all the support when it is running.) By floating on an oil film, and by having oil pumped continuously over the bearing surface, the FDB motor is frictionless and would run forever. Except when the oil evaporates over time, or otherwise leaves the sealed area. And with no significant oil reservoir, once it leaks, there is no spare oil to be had. When Seagate evaluates the operating status of the motors in the lab, they use a gram balance, and note the difference in weight, to figure out how much oil is left. I think the Panaflo computer fan uses a similar idea. Conventional bearings, but sealed to keep the oil in. There are other kinds of computer fans, where the bearing is not sealed. My favorite story, is the 40mm fan in a disk enclosure - when the enclosure was acquired as a brand new product, there was a "pool of oil" below the fan. And within only one day of operation, the fan was toast. That's what happens when the mechanical tolerances are poor, and nobody gives a rats ass about keeping the lubricant in place. There would be no point immersing a fan like that in 5W30, because three weeks from now, not a bit of the oil would still be in the bearing. It would be sitting in a pool below the fan. Paul |
| Paul <nospam@needed.com>: May 05 02:49AM -0400 Paul wrote: >> This guy literally drops the entire fan into motor oil: >> https://youtu.be/vkLgqMPmmZg >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkLgqMPmmZg Here's another drawing of the fan. http://www.comet.bg/files/custom/MagLev_scheme.jpg ( http://www.comet.bg/?cid=105&NewsId=961 ) There is no oil seal. There is a dust cap. And while the fan is spinning, I would expect a slight mechanical load on the bottom surface of the spindle. Paul |
| "SC Tom" <sc@tom.net>: May 05 08:23AM -0400 "Max Muller" <maxmuller@info.gathering> wrote in message news:ngekb7$nh$1@news.mixmin.net... > the fan and he also cleans the hole. > He says the lubricant only lasts a month, so it's important to > figure out what's a good lubricant. I had a similar problem with my Gateway laptop years ago. I can't tell from the video, but on mine, the sticker on the side where the wires go in was covering the other side of the hole, and on mine, an e-clip around the end of the shaft. Also, there may be a nylon/Teflon washer on one or both ends of the shaft. If there are, be sure to note where and what color goes where (some have different color washers that IIRC denote thickness). I've always used either alcohol or WD-40 and Q-tips for cleaning. Works well, and the slightly abrasive quality of the swab cleans everything quite well. I use a light-grade sewing machine oil for lubrication- it provides a nice lubrication barrier without creating unwanted drag, or drying out and getting "gummy". If you have to remove the label, be sure to clean the metal surface well with alcohol before sticking the label back in place (it also acts as a dust cover). I've used this method over the years and sometimes have gotten a couple more years out of my fans before the brass bushings wore to point of creating blade wobble. The one in my Gateway was still working when I retired it 3 or 4 years after cleaning/lubricating it. The only thing I did after that initial rebuild was blow out the dust occasionally. -- SC Tom |
| ohger1s@gmail.com: May 04 10:23AM -0700 > The other is a flat rectangular piece, and I cannot get any kind of resistance reading *anywhere* across it. I've cleaned it several times including using an abrasive last time and cannot get a whiff of conductance, and I've put considerable pressure on the test leads. I guess it being unassembled and sitting in free air must have poisoned it somehow as I don't recall it having any issues with erratic segments before the meter died. > It will be easy to hard wire this but was wondering if this is a low ohm transfer strip of something maybe a few ohms to a few thousand. If it's low ohms, I'll just hard wire it. If it's something other, there's plenty of room to put in 1/8 w resistors of appropriate value. > Anyone know the approximate resistance of the strip? I removed the switch assy, the main IC socket, and the variable capacitors from the board. Several rounds of 91% IPA bathing has not cleaned the sticky electrolyte off the board, except where I could get an acid brush in to scrub. Two remaining options are to remove every other part off the board and scrub with a fiber brush or go to a more aggressive cleaner. I'm going with option two and see what happens. John |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 04 11:59AM -0700 >I removed the switch assy, the main IC socket, and the variable capacitors from the board. Several rounds of 91% IPA bathing has not cleaned the sticky electrolyte off the board, except where I could get an acid brush in to scrub. Two remaining options are to remove every other part off the board and scrub with a fiber brush or go to a more aggressive cleaner. I'm going with option two and see what happens. >John Older electrolytic capacitors used ethylene glycol and boric acid for electrolyte. Later versions used dimethylformamide, dimethylacetamide, or butyrolactone. If you look these up on Wikipedia, the table on the right includes solubility: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylacetamide> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylformamide> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma-Butyrolactone> I would try detergent and water first, followed by a distilled or deoinized water rinse. If that fails, start up the ladder of chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents, starting with alcohol. I wouldn't go much past trichlorethane or trichlorethylene which will probably peel off the PCB printing, labels, and maybe the silk screening. Some of these will also attack the epoxy that holds the PCB together. Be careful and good luck. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: May 04 05:59PM -0400 In article <rtgkibdr3po7m4lknc64kkn04ndlvdk0hu@4ax.com>, jeffl@cruzio.com says... > peel off the PCB printing, labels, and maybe the silk screening. Some > of these will also attack the epoxy that holds the PCB together. Be > careful and good luck. I have seen references to mixing IPA and acetone 50/50 to do some PC board cleaning. Any thing good or bad about doing that ? |
| ohger1s@gmail.com: May 04 03:07PM -0700 On Wednesday, May 4, 2016 at 2:59:17 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com > Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 That makes a lot of sense. As I was unsoldering all the leaky caps, I never once got a whiff of low tide. When I was rebuilding Sony and Canon camcorders in the 90s most of them needed 40 or 50 smd caps, and my bench smelled like catch of the day. Clearly the formulation is different for the caps in the Flukes from what we see nowadays. Anyway, your advice to avoid ultrasonic cleaners made way too much sense so I went ahead and soaked the board with my favorite circuit board cleaner; Fantastik. After a few soaks and rinses, the board looks, well, fantastic. It's clean as a whistle and all the goo is gone, including the crap under the inline packages and ICs. I rinsed in distilled water and now it's getting it's last IPA bath. I'll let it dry and reassemble in a few days and hope for the best. And if that's your ground mail, I can send you two screws I have off a non-working 85 that I think needs a main chip. This meter crapped about 8 years ago and I misplaced one of the screws, but if you want the other two, they're yours. I'm on the east coast so it'll be a week. John |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 04 05:15PM -0700 >smd caps, and my bench smelled like catch of the day. Clearly >the formulation is different for the caps in the Flukes from >what we see nowadays. Yep. Lots of changes in electrolyte. I really don't know what Fluke was using. >Anyway, your advice to avoid ultrasonic cleaners made way too >much sense so I went ahead and soaked the board with my favorite >circuit board cleaner; Fantastik. Ugh. I use Formula 409. I had some issues with Fantastik leaving some residue that didn't evaporate. Fortunately, most seemed to wash off with deionized water, so it wasn't fatal. Residue was easy enough to detect by leaving a blob of Fantastik on a microscope slide, let it evaporate, and inspect the bathtub ring. There wasn't much, but there was enough to make me worry. Fantastik has changed their formulation over the years. This should be the latest (Formula 35*19431): <http://www.whatsinsidescjohnson.com/us/en/brands/fantastik/fantastik-mini-concentrated-kitchen-cleaner> I have a small problem with the oily fragrance, which does evaporate, but very slowly. The stabilizer and dye also might leave a residue, but I'm not sure. Both 409 and Fantastik are highly alkaline (pH=10.5 to 11.5), which should not be a problem. The grease was cleaned by the inclusion of ethyl alcohol. >under the inline packages and ICs. I rinsed in distilled water and >now it's getting it's last IPA bath. I'll let it dry and reassemble >in a few days and hope for the best. Sounds good. Check the residual voltage displayed on the 200mv scale to see if the PCB is still leaking. I know mine is leaking from all my unprotected handling. >crapped about 8 years ago and I misplaced one of the screws, but if >you want the other two, they're yours. I'm on the east coast so >it'll be a week. Thanks. The address is my palatial office. I could use the screws to finish my 8060A. However, if you think you're going to eventually fix the Model 85, I suggest you keep them. I'll eventually find where I misplaced my screws or find replacements. Also, I'm still not sure about the black line at the bottom of the LCD. However, I'm inclined to believer that you're correct and that mine is normal. When reassembled, the screen does not show the black line and everything else looks normal. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: May 04 05:32PM -0700 On Wed, 4 May 2016 17:59:53 -0400, Ralph Mowery >I have seen references to mixing IPA and acetone 50/50 to do some PC >board cleaning. Any thing good or bad about doing that ? No. Bad idea. Don't do that. Acetone will attack many plastics (ABS, polycarbonate, polystyrene, polyethylene, vinyl, etc). Before you use ANY manner of solvent, do some research on a "chemical compatibility chart" for the materials you expect to be using. <https://capolight.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/solvent_compatibility.jpg> Be sure to check compatibility with epoxy, as that's what the PCB is made from. For example: <http://www.coleparmer.com/Chemical-Resistance> shows that: ABS plastic and acetone = "Severe Effect" ABS plastic and 50% acetone and water = "Severe Effect" Also, I guess I should mention that there are many different types of alcohols (amyl, benzyl, butyl, diacetone, ethyl, hexyl, ibsbutyl, methyl, octyl, propyl, etc). Characteristics vary so don't assume that some random alcohol is safe just because isopropyl alcohol didn't destroy some plastic. I had to learn that lesson when I switched to the "alcohol" sold by the local hardware store, and found it far more aggressive than the 91% drug store variety. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: May 04 11:46PM -0400 In article <074lib920jf21474uskd6te6n5rcu8bmqk@4ax.com>, jeffl@cruzio.com says... > shows that: > ABS plastic and acetone = "Severe Effect" > ABS plastic and 50% acetone and water = "Severe Effect" Thanks for the chart. I will stay away from the acetone/ipa mix for the PC boards. |
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