Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 19 updates in 5 topics

9:44 AM Penedão
JW <none@dev.null>: Sep 16 03:59PM -0400

http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 16 01:20PM -0700


>http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
... and the batteries that don't leak explode when shorted:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/index.html>
 
I've bought Duracell AA alkalines that leaked withing a week or three
after installation. No leaks in the package seen, although I'm not
surprised.
 
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
JW <none@dev.null>: Sep 16 04:33PM -0400

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 13:20:59 -0700 Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
 
>>http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
>... and the batteries that don't leak explode when shorted:
><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/index.html>
 
Don't short them, then. :)
How did the short happen? An experiment?
"Benderthe.evilrobot" <Benderthe.evilrobot@virginmedia.com>: Sep 16 10:25PM +0100

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:6ukotb9h93r3q5ea1hjr0m0jejffg7c5j9@4ax.com...
 
> I've bought Duracell AA alkalines that leaked withing a week or three
> after installation. No leaks in the package seen, although I'm not
> surprised.
 
IME: They're no less likely to leak than cheap brands if left in equipment
for a long time.
 
The real disappointment is they don't last significantly longer than the
pack of 6 Kodak Extralife from the £ store.
ohger1s@gmail.com: Sep 16 02:49PM -0700

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 3:59:29 PM UTC-4, JW wrote:
> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
Too lazy to read the link but I know for a fact that name brand batteries (Duracell and Energizer specifically) are known to be counterfeited. Not saying that has anything to do with the link but just throwing that out there.
Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com>: Sep 16 05:49PM -0400

In article <6ukotb9h93r3q5ea1hjr0m0jejffg7c5j9@4ax.com>,
 
> I've bought Duracell AA alkalines that leaked withing a week or three
> after installation. No leaks in the package seen, although I'm not
> surprised.
 
Jeff-
 
My experience over the years is that any Alkaline cell can leak and ruin
whatever it is in.
 
I have switched to "Energizer Ultimate Lithium" AA and AAA cells. They
claim to have more capacity to justify higher cost. Perhaps they do,
but my main concern is leakage. So far, I have not had any leak. Do
you have an opinion?
 
Fred
"Gareth Magennis" <soundserviceleeds@outlook.com>: Sep 16 10:56PM +0100

"JW" wrote in message news:hnjotbt9nofrij5epr9s6nhshbr07vt2p3@4ax.com...
 
http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
 
 
 
 
 
A quick check shows there is no evidence whatsoever in the OP link to
suggest that these batteries are indeed Duracell in genuine packaging.
Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com>: Sep 17 06:40AM +0800

On 17/09/2016 3:59 AM, JW wrote:
> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
We used to buy them all the time and they never leaked when fully
discharged but nowadays they do. Caused me lots of problems with various
bits of kit. they must have changed the construction or suppliers.
jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 16 03:50PM -0700

>"
>A quick check shows there is no evidence whatsoever in the OP link to
>suggest that these batteries are indeed Duracell in genuine >packaging. "
 
Is that to say you concur that they are counterfeit ?
 
We have had counterfeit semiconductors, and mostly they are not just an empty package, there is a transistor in there just it is inferior to the JANX or JEDEC or whatever makes the numbers standardized.
 
So say you own a battery company making an inferior part what do you do to make more money ? Just change the label, right ? Well that is how business is now. It's like they might take a 2N3055 and relabel it MJ15024. So they get six bucks instead of three bucks.
 
Before they did that they talked with the lawyers and the accountants and figured out what the gamble was, how much would it cost the in lawsuits in the worst case scenario and what are the chances of that happening ? Believe it or not I am about to get involved in exactly that about some amplifiers that need a physical modification because the bias regulators are not held to the heat sink. You know that is going to fry out. At this time, they have been lazy and uncooperative so I will put it to them - "Just sell them, and call them refurbs and give a very short warranty, you hurt your company name but we get these things the hell outta here". Actually I want a different job, these people are too "corporate" for me.
 
They give lip service but that's it. They come bitching about how stuff is piled up and I say "Buy some shelves, even those elcheapo plastic ones would work from the DIY that you stick together with the tubing". It has been three weeks. No shelves.
 
So they get from me what I get from them. I am just going to fix the obvious problem and ship them. Then they can refund all that money. It is not my problem.
"Gareth Magennis" <soundserviceleeds@outlook.com>: Sep 17 12:03AM +0100

wrote in message
news:10ed962d-f166-4618-a6ff-5a24c08af2ba@googlegroups.com...
 
>"
>A quick check shows there is no evidence whatsoever in the OP link to
>suggest that these batteries are indeed Duracell in genuine >packaging. "
 
Is that to say you concur that they are counterfeit ?
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Look, I haven't the time or inclination to wade through your pages of
waffle,
but yes, Counterfeit is a definite probability.
 
As is trolling. i.e. trying to discredit something or other via a
newsgroup.
 
 
Don't buy it.
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 16 10:43PM -0700

>><http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/Duracell/index.html>
 
>Don't short them, then. :)
>How did the short happen? An experiment?
 
The pictures were supplied by a friend. His desk is a mountain of
junk, some of it conductive. Brand new battery got tossed onto the
pile, where the exposed leads were shorted by something. Some time
later (delay unknown), there was a loud bang. It took him some time
to find the culprit, which was then photographed.
 
Unfortunately, he tossed the batteries before I could get my hands on
them to determine if they were real or counterfeit. I can't tell from
the photos. I bought an identical battery from a local retailer,
shorted the terminals with a #12 solid copper wire, and waited for the
explosion. Nothing but some noises from venting gasses, some smoke,
and plenty of heat. No bang. So, it might have been one cell with a
blocked vent plug, or possibly a counterfeit battery.
 
 
 
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 16 10:57PM -0700

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 17:49:44 -0400, Fred McKenzie <fmmck@aol.com>
wrote:
 
>> surprised.
 
>My experience over the years is that any Alkaline cell can leak and ruin
>whatever it is in.
 
Agreed. I have a fair collection of flashlights that were ruined by
junk batteries. However, I don't keep records and have no data on
which cells are the culprits, or how long one can expect them to last
before leaking. Mostly, I use Costco Kirkland brand, which seems
better than most, but still eventually leaks.
 
>claim to have more capacity to justify higher cost. Perhaps they do,
>but my main concern is leakage. So far, I have not had any leak. Do
>you have an opinion?
 
They're very good batteries, but also rather expensive.
<http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?368072-Test-Review-of-Energizer-Ultimate-Lithium-AA>
In AA, these are $2/ea versus about $0.40/ea for Kirkland AA alkaline.
 
Where possible, I prefer to sustitute rechargeable NiCd or NiMH
batteries for alkaline, or purchase something that runs on LiIon. So
far, the Eneloop NiMH cells, which have a very low self discharge
rate, seem the best compromise between performance, life, self
discharge, and cost at about $2/ea.
 
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com>: Sep 17 11:06PM +0800

On 17/09/16 03:59, JW wrote:
> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
IN addition to posting the source URL link, you should also write a
summary so that we don't need to waste time to read the long chat log...
 
--
@~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!!
/ v \ Simplicity is Beauty!
/( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you!
^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3
不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA):
http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 17 09:31AM -0700

On Fri, 16 Sep 2016 22:56:31 +0100, "Gareth Magennis"
>http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
>A quick check shows there is no evidence whatsoever in the OP link to
>suggest that these batteries are indeed Duracell in genuine packaging.
 
A somewhat longer check found some interesting items about Duracell
batteries. Draw your own conclusions from the anecdotal evidence:
 
"Duracell Batteries Leak In Normal Use, Class Action Claims"
<https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/lawsuit-news/45069-duracell-batteries-leak-normal-use-class-action-claims/>
 
Leaking Duracell battery video:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cLx32dSwoQ>
 
Quite a few consumer complaints about leaking batteries:
<http://www.complaintsboard.com/?search=duracell>
 
Photos of another Duracell battery leaks while still in the package:
<http://www.moonmoth.net/duracell/index.htm>
<http://www.moonmoth.net/duracell/images/IMG_2547.jpg>
 
Exploding AA Duracell:
<https://russmcduff.wordpress.com/2012/01/15/exploding-aa-duracell-battery/>
 
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
JW <none@dev.null>: Sep 17 12:39PM -0400

On Sat, 17 Sep 2016 23:06:54 +0800 "Mr. Man-wai Chang"
<toylet.toylet@gmail.com> wrote in Message id:
>> http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/duracell-alkaline-batteries-seem-to-have-a-bad-rap/msg1027983/#msg1027983
 
>IN addition to posting the source URL link, you should also write a
>summary so that we don't need to waste time to read the long chat log...
 
Tough titty, asshat.
KenO <kenitholson@yahoo.com>: Sep 17 08:52AM -0700

ohg,
 
A Very Belated Thanks for doing my homework!!! Have been on extended holiday and now trying to get up to date.
 
"Cost effective? Ken, the cost to ship a capacitor of this type will far exceed it's cost.. If you're buying a few hundred thousand of them, then pennies matter. The cheapest Nichicon 47/160 radial I could find at Digikey that was in stock and could be purchased one at a time is 0.61c each. The cheapest Panasonic is 0.71c.
 
A 68/200v 105 Panasonic with 10K hour life is $1.14
 
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/panasonic-electronic-components/EEU-ED2D680/P13526-ND/1086751
 
In any case, you're going to have to pay shipping. Does the cost of the cap actually matter?"
 
Agree with everything you said!!!
 
Wondered why I did not find that cap when dl the Pan cap catalog until dl the data sheet from Digi-Key http://industrial.panasonic.com/cdbs/www-data/pdf/RDF0000/ABA0000CE86.pdf and saw the red box with Discontinued.
 
Question: Is the 47uF 160 V cap common to Samsung(or other Mfrs) Power Supplies?
 
If yes am thinking about ordering a few more.
 
Thanks again for all your help!!!
 
Ken
Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net>: Sep 17 05:24AM

Here is a summary of what I know about the T-Mobile and Verizon plans to
give you a "free" iPhone 7 32GB when you do two things:
a. You trade in *any* iPhone 6
b. You keep your service for the next two years
 
Here are the Verizon phone numbers:
http://www.tomsguide.com/faq/id-2346970/talk-real-person-verizon-wireless-customer-service.html
https://www.800-numbers.net/verizon/
a. 800-922-0204
b. 800-256-4646
c. 800-526-3178
 
Here are the T-Mobile phone numbers:
http://www.tomsguide.com/faq/id-2346088/talk-real-person-mobile-customer-service.html
http://www.t-mobile.com/contact-us.html
a. 877-453-1304
b. 877-778-2106
c. 844-270-0187
 
Here is a description of the Verizon trade in deal:
a. https://www.verizonwireless.com/
b.
http://www.verizon.com/about/news/get-next-gen-iphones-next-gen-network-available-verizon-lte-advanced-beginning-friday-september
 
Here is a description of the T-Mobile trade in deal:
a. https://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-32234
b.
http://www.t-mobile.com/offer/apple-iphone-deals.html?icid=WMD_TM_Q316NPI_4BWFR9S6IA85960
 
There are three key concerns:
1. TRADEIN COSTS:
2. UNLOCK STATUS:
3. PHONE STATUS (vs SERVICE STATUS):
 
1. TRADEIN COSTS:
Verizon and T-Mobile both have the same iPhone 6 requirements
a. The iPhone 6 must turn on
b. It must not be visibly damaged (e.g., no cracked screen)
c. The water-damage sticker must be white (not red)
d. The iPhone 6 can be *any* number of gigabytes of storage
 
At both Verizon and T-Mobile, you can visit a brick-and-mortar store to
have them assess the iPhone 6 and annotate your service record that the
iPhone 6 passes the requirements above.
 
2. UNLOCK STATUS:
a. All Verizon phones are unlocked (even the iPhone 7 under tradein!)
b. T-Mobile iPhone 7s, if under the trade-in, are locked but can be
permanently unlocked after 40 days (if you tell them you're going to
Europe).
 
The catch with T-Mobile is that the iPhone 7 must be put on the service
line for those 40 days, whereas for Verizon, since the phone is unlocked,
it *never* has to be placed in service.
 
3. PHONE STATUS (vs SERVICE STATUS):
Verizon and T-Mobile both have similar requirements, with Verizon having a
slightly worse plan that T-Mobile on length of service.
 
In both Verizon and T-Mobile cases, they don't care *what* you do with the
iPhone 7 once you receive it.
a. You can put it on your service line
b. Or you can give it to a friend
c. Or you can put it in your desk drawer
 
They don't care *what* you do with the phone.
 
However, in the Verizon case, they charge you $27/month *extra* on the
first two bills for the phone, and then they reimburse you that $54 on the
third bill, and the credits start to take hold for two years. (So, I think
that means the Verizon 2-year deal is actually 2 years and 2 months.)
 
In the case of T-Mobile, the credits start on day one, so the 2-year deal
is a 2-year deal.
 
Both Verizon & T-Mobile must charge you the sales tax on the full price of
the iPhone 7.
 
Technically, the Verizon iPhone 7 is slightly better than the T-Mobile
iPhone 7 for two reasons:
a. The Verizon iPhone 7 is alredy permanently unlocked, and,
b. The Verizon iPhone 7 is CDMA & GSM (while T-Mobile is only GSM)
 
NOTE: The Verizon iPhone 7 has a Qualcomm modem which is both CDMA and GSM
while the T-Mobile iPhone 7 has an Intel modem which is only GSM.
 
Let me know if any of those details need honing.
"Benderthe.evilrobot" <Benderthe.evilrobot@virginmedia.com>: Sep 16 10:29PM +0100

"Joe" <joebalamand@rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:K%ECz.772281$GH.162689@fx34.am4...
> To reiterate, there is excellent picture when tape plays. Just 'no signal'
> when tape is stopped and no VCR menu. No response to remote either.
> Can you help please?
 
If it takes time to warm up - suspect the secondary side electrolytics in
the PSU.
 
Back when Television magazine was still going, a frequently reported stock
fault was the memory supercapacitor on the front panel pcb.
 
AFAICR: it applied to various makes/models - I can't remember any specifics.
Horace Algier <horatio@horatio.net>: Sep 16 07:56PM

On Wed, 14 Sep 2016 18:41:22 -0400, bruce wrote:
 
> Oh, what the hell. I'll give it a try.
 
Thanks Bruce. I'm always nice if someone is sincerely trying to answer the
question, and, I do realize that most people don't even *understand* the
question.
 
> In the following I tend to intersperse WAN and LAN as well as BSSID and
> MAC. The basic underlying concepts work in both environments (with some
> fudging).
 
All we care about, for *this* discussion, is the MAC address of the 5GHz
and 2.4GHz radios in the iOS or Android cellphones we are trying to track.
 
That MAC address is also called a BSSID.
 
Google also logs the SSID, the signal strength, and the GPS location, but
they are not of importance for *this* discussion.
 
Only the MAC address (aka BSSID) is important for *this* discussion.
 
> SSID has nothing to do with cellphones. It has to do with wifi only.
> The same is true for BSSID.
 
This is not true that "SSID has nothing to do with cellphones".
 
As Jeff and I just discussed, if an Android or iOS cellphone acts as an
Access Point, then that cellphone will broadcast an SSID.
 
If that iOS or Android cellphone broadcasts an SSID, it also broadcasts a
BSSID, which is unique to that cellphone. In fact, it broadcasts *two*
BSSIDs, one for each radio (5Ghz and 2.4Ghz).
 
It's *those* unique BSSIDs which are captured by poorly configured Android
devices and uploaded multiple times a day to the Google Public Database,
along with the GPS location of the poorly configured Android device and the
SSID and Signal Strength of the access point.
 
Notice this allows such iOS or Android cellphones to be tracked!
 
> SSID is just a name. There could be thousands of wifi access points
> around the world with the same SSID.
 
I agree. SSID is "just a name". If the name ends with "_nomac", Google
promises to *drop* that SSID from its' public database.
 
However, you must realize that the Google Public Database contains *more*
than the SSID! It contains the *unique* BSSID associated with that SSID,
and furthermore, it contains the Signal Strength of that access point at a
specific GPS location of the poorly configured Android device that is near
that access point.
 
Anyone who doesn't *understand* that paragraph above can't possibly
understand the topic of this thread - so it's critical that the paragraph
above be *understood*.

> Each radio is a BSS with a BSSID, which is also known as a MAC. Each
> network device/radio has (by design, but not always in fact) a unique
> value for the MAC.
 
I agree. Specifically, if an iOS or ANdroid cellphone is acting as an
access point, then its 5GHz and 2.4Ghz radio will broadcast the following:
a. The cellphone AP SSID
b. The cellphone AP BSSID
 
What you must understand to understand the question, is that poorly
configured Android devices will *send* to Google not only that information
above, but *more* information!
 
Poorly configured Android devices will send to Google:
a. Your cellphone AP SSID
b. Your cellphone AP BSSID (aka MAC address)
c. Your AP signal strength seen by the poorly configured Android cellphone
d. The GPS location of the poorly configured Android cellpone
 
> in the destination field of the packet and its own MAC in the source
> field. The rest of the connection protocol is left as an exercise for
> the reader.
 
This part is understood that the BSSID of the 5Ghz and 2.4GHz radios in
both iOS and Android devices is sent in the clear in packets whenever those
cellphones connect to an access point.
 
But I'm not talking about that.
 
I'm only talking about when an iOS or Android cellphone has the following
four bits of information *sent* to the Google database by poorly configured
Android devices:
a. Your cellphone AP SSID
b. Your cellphone AP BSSID (aka MAC address)
c. Your AP signal strength seen by the poorly configured Android cellphone
d. The GPS location of the poorly configured Android cellpone
 
> MAC address of devices it is communicating with and send that info out
> onto the internet to some recipient along with info from its own GPS, if
> available.
 
Yes. You are correct that there are *other* methods, other than the Google
Public Database, to obtain MAC addresses of devices.
 
For example, this web site from wardriving software:
https://wigle.net/
 
But *this* question is complex enough for most people (almost nobody
understood the question) if I simply stick to the Google mechanism.
 
Lord knows how complex this question gets if I bring in the Wigle
wardriving mechanism (which even I don't understand).
 
> So, while it is not part of the normal protocols to reveal that
> information it is not inconceivable that some user level program could
> be doing the nasty deed.
 
Yep. Wardrivign software.
Or anything from Marius Milner (e.g., netstumbler).
 
> outgoing packets. This is in fact how DECnet used to work, the two high
> order bytes of the MAC were changed to reflect the fact that a packet
> was a DECnet packet.
 
This is not true.
Jeff Liebermann explained in the past why it would take an heroic effort to
clone the MAC address of the radio that is sending out the packets.
 
The cloning is on a different MAC address, which is not the MAC address of
concern here.
 
Too bad, becuase if it were easy to change the Access Point MAC address,
then I would change mine daily.
 
> As was said before, just flip a few bits and you could suddenly appear
> to be on the other side of the planet.
 
Not true.
You're confusing the easily cloned MAC address with the one that would take
desoldering to change.
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