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| Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>: Oct 28 02:36PM -0500 N_Cook wrote: > So like a smaller version of a central heating circulation pump, > magneticc oupling through a membrane. At least washing m/c get used > through the summer , so nver a chance to seize up Well, I've seen magnetic-coupled pumps. These have a totally standard induction motor turning a magnet outside the housing, and a magnet turning the impeller inside. This is different - there is only one magnet, and the stator poles outside. So, it is a 2-pole permanent magnet synchronous motor. The only trick is to make sure the thing starts every time power is applied. Jon |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Oct 28 01:18PM -0700 On Friday, October 28, 2016 at 3:23:18 AM UTC-4, N_Cook wrote: > So like a smaller version of a central heating circulation pump, > magneticc oupling through a membrane. At least washing m/c get used > through the summer , so nver a chance to seize up I have used TACO and Grundfos sealed hydonic circulator pumps - our present system uses two TACO systems and one Bell & Gossett 1/4-horse as it is a summer-winter system that makes domestic hot water as well. The TACO pumps have one (1) moving part installed as a cartridge, and behave as does any other AC induction motor designed without brushes. There is no 'magnetic coupling' in the true sense of the word, as there is only that single moving part. I would agree on the 'synchronous' description as the impetus has to comes from somewhere. The Bell and Gossett, on the other hand has the standard induction motor using a spring-coupling to a separate pump housing with a sealed bearing. Much larger, much heavier, and much more powerful. That is what moves the approximately 110 gallons (400 liters) of water through the 34 radiators on a 2-pipe system, that includes just under 450 feet (146 meters) of pipe in total. The house was built in 1890, and substantially expanded in 1928, when the hydronic system was first installed. It is a 2-pipe, 3-zone system designed for gravity supply and return, with a single circulator not added until the 1950s. We converted from oil to gas and added the indirect water heater, that conversion requiring the two additional circulators. But the first Grundfos pump I installed about 38 years ago is still going strong. And my first TACO pump (27 years) is equally good, so far. I have rebuilt our B&G twice - the first time just the coupling - the second time, the support bearings and coupling. I should have done the support bearings the first time. That, now, has 8 years on it, but is dated 1978 as the original install-date. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0X8m0BGZ1g Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| ggherold@gmail.com: Oct 28 01:25PM -0700 On Thursday, October 27, 2016 at 1:15:26 PM UTC-4, Jon Elson wrote: > Anyway, the pump bearings (water lubricated) are massively worn, and the > rotor eventually wore through the plastic housing. > Jon Have you looked for a replacement motor? I had some motor fail on a Kenmore washer and the local appliance dealer had the part. George H. |
| Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>: Oct 28 04:23PM -0500 > Have you looked for a replacement motor? I had some motor fail on a > Kenmore washer and the local appliance dealer had the part. Yes, I ordered a replacement part through Amazon. Ugh, yet another story. The replacement pump has a thermoplastic pump housing, while the original seemed like it was a thermoset. The pump leaked where the two parts were joined with a raidal O-ring seal. Removing the housing, it was visibly non-circular! So, I had to take the old housing and O-ring and put them on the new pump. It is now back in operation, but I'm not so happy about their crummy parts and the number of times I had to disassemble the thing to make it right. Jon |
| N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk>: Oct 29 11:04AM +0100 >> through the summer , so nver a chance to seize up > I have used TACO and Grundfos sealed hydonic circulator pumps - our present system uses two TACO systems and one Bell & Gossett 1/4-horse as it is a summer-winter system that makes domestic hot water as well. The TACO pumps have one (1) moving part installed as a cartridge, and behave as does any other AC induction motor designed without brushes. There is no 'magnetic coupling' in the true sense of the word, as there is only that single moving part. I would agree on the 'synchronous' description as the impetus has to comes from somewhere. > The Bell and Gossett, on the other hand has the standard induction motor using a spring-coupling to a separate pump housing with a sealed bearing. Much larger, much heavier, and much more powerful. That is what moves the approximately 110 gallons (400 liters) of water through the 34 radiators on a 2-pipe system, that includes just under 450 feet (146 meters) of pipe in total. The house was built in 1890, and substantially expanded in 1928, when the hydronic system was first installed. It is a 2-pipe, 3-zone system designed for gravity supply and return, with a single circulator not added until the 1950s. We converted from oil to gas and added the indirect water heater, that conversion requiring the two additional circulators. But the first Grundfos pump I installed about 38 years ago is still going strong. And my first TACO pump (27 years) is equally good, so far. I have rebuilt our B&G twice - the first time just the coupling - the second time, the support bearings and coupling. I should have done the support bearings the first time. That, now, has 8 years on it, but is dated 1978 as the original install-date. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0X8m0BGZ1g > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA A problem with synchronous motors, is they can start backwards unless there is a "kicker" mechanism |
| etpm@whidbey.com: Oct 29 09:11AM -0700 On Thu, 27 Oct 2016 12:15:18 -0500, Jon Elson <elson@pico-systems.com> wrote: >Anyway, the pump bearings (water lubricated) are massively worn, and the >rotor eventually wore through the plastic housing. >Jon Greetings Jon, Thanks for the motor update. I have been thinking about that motor and why they would use it and it must be because shaded pole motors are so inefficient. Eric |
| Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>: Oct 28 04:29PM -0500 Bruce Esquibel wrote: > I can't see a set of new plugs, wires, cap, rotor, points and condenser > running more than $50 dollars or so. I'd just replace everything and if > you think something is wrong, look elsewhere. Oh, wow, have you bought any car parts lately? A set of wires ONLY for a 4- cylinder car can run $50 at the NAPA parts store. Parts for a 1948 car are likely to be VERY hard to find specialty items. IF J. C. Whitney doesn't have them, you could be out of luck. The guys at the local Auto Zone would not even know what the term "points and condenser" means. Jon |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Oct 28 07:47PM -0400 "Ivan Vegvary" <ivanvegvary@gmail.com> wrote in message news:da0ebbe5-3ac9-4984-a366-4b350e9a7bb9@googlegroups.com... > Of course the only electronics in a 1948 auto is the ignition system. > Would love to look at 4 cylinders (8 total) at a time with the Rigol. > I do have inductive pickups that I can salvage from timing lights. For working around car ignition systems, I would look for one of the older tube type Tektronix models. Try 535, 545 for the large ones or a 453 with the nuvistor tubes in the vertical front end. These would survive better than a usual fet input amp. Just my 2 cents. |
| Bruce Esquibel <bje@ripco.com>: Oct 29 10:45AM > have them, you could be out of luck. > The guys at the local Auto Zone would not even know what the term "points > and condenser" means. Yeah but if you expand your horizons a bit beyond NAPA and AutoZones, there are places like Rockauto.com, which is probably 1 stop shopping for it. He never mentioned models and engine types but I just looked up a 1948 Pontiac Streamliner with a 3.9L (239 cid) L6... condenser is $1.31 to $8.52 dist cap $8.72 rotor $3.12 to $4.78 points $9.64 to $12.29 ignition coil $10.11 to $14.56 spark plugs $1.10 to $1.90 each I don't see wires listed for those in 1948 but, those are just wires. Looking up a 1964 Buick Wildcat, 425cu 8cyl (at random), they have closeout sets from $6.74 to high performance ones with ceramic boots, $73.89. So maybe $50 was on the light side, so if I say under $100 make you feel better? Point is, it would be money more well spent just replacing all that compared to doing whatever he wanted to do with the scope, which probably isn't going to tell him anything. Like someone else pointed out, a dwell meter (forgot about those), timing light and volt-ohm-meter will be far more useful. -bruce bje@ripco.com |
| "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net>: Oct 29 05:32AM -0400 Jon Elson wrote: > OHHH, this explains a LOT! Wish I knew that 30 years ago! > Thanks, > Jon I bought a used re-inker about 25 years ago and the manual had that warning. It said that some type of clay was used in stamp pad ink. The ink they sold was cheaper, and denser. It had a hollow post with a tiny hole in the side. A clock motor turned the feed inside the cartridge, as a streak of ink was applied to the center of the ribbon. By the time it has made one full loop, the ink has spread across most of the width of the nylon fabric. -- Never piss off an Engineer! They don't get mad. They don't get even. They go for over unity! ;-) |
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