sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Google Groups

thekmanrocks@gmail.com: Apr 25 01:23PM -0700 Rewiring whole house, mostly existing and not adding many new outlets, keeping existing 20 year old panel. Will doing this see any appreciable drop in electrical consumption, bills?   Could not find Usenet group devoted to electricity/Electrical work.

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Apr 25 01:40PM -0700 > consumption, bills?   > Could not find Usenet group devoted to > electricity/Electrical work.   This will not save you any electricity unless the wires and walls are warm to the touch (danger!). Unless the house is wired two wire or aluminum wiring there is no real point to replacing the copper. If the plugs are loose in the sockets, then new sockets are a good idea. You won't save any money, but your lights, or whatever is plugged into that outlet will run a bit better as it has a lower voltage drop between the outlet and the plug.   But save on your electrical bill? Nope. Not going to happen. Updating the wiring won't improve the efficiency of your appliances. You would be better off replacing light bulbs with LEDs, and update your electric stove/water heater/dryer/dishwasher with more energy efficient models - then your electrical consumption can drop (if you use the equipment to the same extent) and you will save some $$ in the long run.   Maybe.   Of course replacing perfectly good electrical appliances to save electricity usually doesn't make economic sense as the cost of replacement is greater than the savings in electricity. You need to do the math. Also, newer appliances tend to be less reliable than older, so you may have to replace them yet again.   The best way to reduce power consumption is to wrap your water heater with an insulating blanket and insulate the hot water pipes. Other than replacing light bulbs with LED (whole other discussion) there isn't much you can do that is quick, easy, and relatively effective.   If you are still going to be rewiring your house yourself then either get an inspector in to make sure you did the job properly or run the risk of fire in outlets or electrical shock to your family, etc...   John :-#)#   -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt): Apr 25 02:50PM -0700 >existing 20 year old panel. Will doing this >see any appreciable drop in electrical >consumption, bills?   Assuming you're keeping the same lights and appliances, and using them in the same way... no, almost certainly not.   If it _did_ mean that, it'd mean that there were huge and horrible electrical losses in your existing wiring. Since such "lost" electricity would necessarily turn into heat, you'd probably have already lost your home to a fire of electrical origin, when some bad contact in outlet overheated and something burst into flame.

thekmanrocks@gmail.com: Apr 25 04:17PM -0700 Dave, John,   Thanks for your replies.   I guess I just thought that swapping out old copper wire that had grown blacker than black with shiny new copper would somehow increase the efficiency of the electrical system.

Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>: Apr 25 07:28PM -0400

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Apr 25 06:32PM -0700 > copper would somehow increase > the efficiency of the electrical > system.   That oxide layer is actually protecting the copper from further corrosion. Much like silver tarnishes. It won't affect the conductivity of the wire unless it is aggressive (salt water can eat copper wires).   You might want to consider getting one of those wattmeter (Kill A Watt) devices that you can plug into outlets and see how much load your appliance is drawing and also if there is a voltage drop when it turns on. A slight drop would be normal (a volt or two) but five or ten would indicate problems with connections between the outlet and the breaker box (or a bad breaker).   http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kill-a-Watt-Voltage-Test-Inspector-Outlet-Electricity-Energy-Usage-Meter-Monitor-/172580310454?   John :-#)#   -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>: Apr 26 12:37PM +1000 > existing 20 year old panel. Will doing this > see any appreciable drop in electrical > consumption, bills?   Probably not.   But why would you do all this and keep the old panel? There is so much good new stuff for modern panels, like breakers with builtin RCD cut-offs that can radically increase safety, as well as leave you with some lights on when a device starts to trip other circuits.

John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Apr 25 11:26PM -0700 On 2017/04/25 7:37 PM, Clifford Heath wrote: > radically increase safety, as well as leave you > with some lights on when a device starts to trip > other circuits.   For those of us on the west side of the Pond (Atlantic Ocean), RCD (Residual Current Device) is the same GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) as far as I can tell...   John :-#)#   -- (Please post followups or tech inquiries to the USENET newsgroup) John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out."

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>: Apr 26 06:14PM +1000 On 26/04/17 16:26, John Robertson wrote:   > For those of us on the west side of the Pond (Atlantic Ocean), RCD > (Residual Current Device) is the same GFI (Ground Fault Interrupter) as > far as I can tell...   Much further west... across a bigger pond, the Pacific :) There are multiple acronyms used here, as far as I can tell. RCD/GFI is also more important at 240V.   Clifford Heath.

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Apr 26 04:44AM -0700 I worked my way through school as an electrician. So, there is a short answers (no) and a much longer answer (it depends).   Back in the day, few houses had much more than a refrigerator, a few lights and perhaps a radio or two and a clothes iron. Maybe a 'rich' house had a curling iron. Those with electric stoves and/or water heaters wired those devices specifically and specially. A 60A (2 x 60A @ 120VAC, technically) service would be more than enough. Today, pretty much every house needs a 200A service for the myriad of devices taken for granted from multiple hair-dryers, central air-conditioning, convection ovens, on-and-on-and-on, too many to list.   Using our house as an example (built in 1890, substantially expanded in 1928), the distance from the electrical panel on the northwest corner of the basement to the light in the cedar closet on the southeast corner of the third floor is very nearly 150 feet. If that line were 14-gauge wire, there *would* be significant line-drop were I to attach say.... a 10A load (perfectly safe, theoretically). Meaning that there would be a small efficiency drop for *that* line with *that* load, perhaps as much as 5%.   Would I reduce my electric bill by replacing that line with heavier gauge wire? Sure. Would I be able to measure those savings in any linear way? Probably not as it may amount to a few bucks in any given year. Would I sleep better at night? Sure. Line-drop = heat.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Apr 26 04:57AM -0700 Don't forget that bane of the electrician's existence: The Arc-Fault Breaker.   But, replacing wiring without replacing the main panel (or the breakers within it if of the correct pattern) is rather silly.   As already noted, the black coating is protective. Some old wiring was silver-plated (very, very rare), some was nickle-plated (rare), and much more of it was tin-plated. So the black coatings could also be oxides of these plating materials. Remember that back in the day, all this was once "new" and all sorts of 'stuff' was tried - leading, eventually, to the NEC.   Note also the K&T (Knob & Tube) wiring, if not overloaded, is extremely safe. The conductors are sufficiently far apart that arcing is not possible, and as the conductors are individual, they dissipate heat well. Sure, some insurance companies charge extra if K&T wiring is present in an old house, most reasonable ones do not. And the amount of destruction necessary to replace K&T wiring entirely in an old house can be significant. Just know where it is, what it is, and treat it accordingly.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Tim R <timothy42b@aol.com>: Apr 26 05:09AM -0700 > Don't forget that bane of the electrician's existence: The Arc-Fault Breaker.   > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA   And the Edison circuit in an older house.

thekmanrocks@gmail.com: Apr 26 05:20AM -0700 pf...@aol.com wrote: "Note also the K&T (Knob & Tube) wiring, if not overloaded, is extremely safe."     Well, the last knob & tube left my house 30 years ago, when a 100ampere service replaced our 60.

thekmanrocks@gmail.com: Apr 26 05:21AM -0700 Tim R wrote: " And the Edison circuit in an older house. "   One wire inny-outy?

gregz <zekor@comcast.net>: Apr 26 07:30AM > Suggest circuits for linking an analog amp gauge to the output of a 200 amp auto   > alternator for measuring output under load. ? links ? commercial units ?   I once used a length of copper wire, computed resistance to wire table. Worked for my test.   Greg

oldschool@tubes.com: Apr 25 12:05PM -0400 I've seen so many warnings about these old wax coated paper capacitors in these newsgroups, and on the web, that every time I see one of them now, I begin to shudder.   Immediately, I notify the FBI, telling them that there is a wax coated paper capacitor in my radio, and I know that this thing is deadly. I carefully explain to them that I have been exposed to it, and instantly developed capacitor cancer. I also explain that I have heard of entire cities being reduced to rubble, killing everyone within 100 miles, when these caps explode. Then I ask them to come remove the capacitors for my and everyone elses safety.   Yes, I was just joking in this previous paragraph.......   Seriously, I have not been able to find any answers to what actually happens internally to these caps, which causes them to fail. I googled for an answer, specifically used the word PAPER CAPACITOR, but all I get are results for failing electrolytic caps, which I do now clearly understand what occurs with them.   So, lets say I have an old radio from the mid 1950s. It contains 9 paper capacitors (plus a few electrolytic filter caps). I am repeatedly told that I must replace all of these wax coated paper caps, as well as the dried up electrolytics.   Ok, I know the electrolyte has dried up in these electrolytics and they are no longer filtering the rectified DC voltage in the power supply, which I can quickly identify by the 60 cycle hum coming from the speaker.   Then, I am told I must replace all these smaller wax covered paper caps, which may or may not be working at the moment. Great, I can take this advice and I can change them, but it seems that no one (at least not on the web), can seem to explain what occurs inside of their waxy bodies that make them fail.   I know they are quite simple. I roll of paper, and two layers of tin or aluminum foil, with leads attached to the two layers of foil inside.They are rolled up, with their leads exiting their bodies. Then they are given an outer shell of paper with their identity printed on it, and are then coated with wax. I'm sure that if I had a lot of time to waste, I could even make my own paper caps, but for the low cost they sell for, that is not necessary, other than for an experiment.   Knowing how they are built, I can only fathom three possible reasons that they fail.   1. The leads tend to corrode from dialectric corrosion, where they contact the inner foil. (I have read that moisture can and does enter these caps, even with the best wax coating).   2. Voltage arcs burn across the paper layer, arcing between the two layers of foil, and burn a hole into the paper, which allows the two layers of foil to contact each other, and cause a short circuit.   3. The foil itself decays from age, and loses conductivity in parts or all of it's roll.   * This does not take into account physical damage, such as crushing or poking a hole in a cap body.   What else can go wrong on such a simple device?   *NOTE: I mentioned the wax coated paper caps, but am aware the old plastic coated ones such as the ones called "Bumble bees" (with colored stripes) are just as bad.   Honestly, I find it hard to comprehend how moisture can get past that wax, as long as the wax remains intact, but I'll just take the advice from the experts on that note.   One final question: Does anyone know what kind of wax was used on them? Was it bees wax, paraffin wax, or something other?

Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca>: Apr 25 01:38PM -0400

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Apr 25 12:48PM -0500 > 1. The leads tend to corrode from dialectric corrosion, where they > contact the inner foil. (I have read that moisture can and does enter > these caps, even with the best wax coating).   No and yes   > 2. Voltage arcs burn across the paper layer, arcing between the two > layers of foil, and burn a hole into the paper, which allows the two > layers of foil to contact each other, and cause a short circuit.   Not until there is a fault.   > 3. The foil itself decays from age, and loses conductivity in parts or > all of it's roll.   Not so much the foil as the paper dielectric.   First and foremost, the paper was NOT acid free archival paper. Mainly because everyone assumed the wax would seal the moisture out. It doesn't because it is hygroscopic. So what happens over time is moisture gets into the capacitor paper, mixes with the acid content eats the metal foil and causes conductive paths in the paper. At first the leakage goes up, until some point when the capacitor fails shorted.       -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com   --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com

oldschool@tubes.com: Apr 25 02:47PM -0400 >Paper capacitors are an old type of capacitor. ELementary Electronics >about 1971 showed how to make them yourself, some paper, some foil, some >liquid if I recall properly. I think even then I knew they were hideous,   I'd like to see that E.E. article. That would be sort of fun to try, just for the heck of it.   E.E. does have PDF file reprints of all their issues on http://www.americanradiohistory.com/Elementary_Electronics_Master_Page.htm   But finding the right issue might be tough...   Guess I'll begin by downloading all the issues from 71. That will take most of the day on dialup....

analogdial <analogdial@mail.com>: Apr 25 09:12PM 1) Cellouse is marvelously hydrgroscopic. It sucks up humidity like a sponge. Wet cellouse is conductive. There's no reason to overthink this. Also, don't assume the paper the manufacturers used was stored or wound in perfectly dry conditions. That's nearly impossible. I have no doubt caps made under humid conditions failed more quickly than caps made during dry times.   2) Wax is NOT a perfect seal against moisture. I'm sure plastics are better but they aren't perfect, either. Ever see a tupperware container sweating from the inside? That moisture diffused it's way through the polyethelyne in maybe a few days or even hours.   Paper caps from the old days that HAD to last a long time were sealed in soldered metal cans in oil. Too expensive for consumer gear! The engineers who designed this stuff KNEW the paper caps would be failing in a few years. So what? Electronics changes fast and the buyer would almost certainly buy something newer before deteriorating caps killed the device.   Using good caps in consumer gear would be a waste of money. Cheap caps were considered good enough.   As far as what kind of wax was used, some sources say beeswax, some say microcrystalline wax. I don't much care.

Clifford Heath <no.spam@please.net>: Apr 26 12:34PM +1000 What fails outside of paper capacitors is that anyone still gives a shit.

Rheilly Phoull <rheilly@bigslong.com>: Apr 26 08:04AM +0800 > existing panel. Will doing this see any > appreciable drop in electrical consumption, > bills?   Doubtful, although you may alter your habits whilst the glow of having new wiring is still going ;-)

bruce2bowser@gmail.com: Apr 25 03:20PM -0700 >Forgot to say that the weak spark might be caused by a bad condenser. >THe condenser helps keep the spark from occurring across the points >instead of at the spark plug   I've got no familiarity with what a condenser is (outside of HVAC) in car circuitry. But thanks for saying what it does.

thekmanrocks@gmail.com: Apr 25 01:21PM -0700 Rewiring whole house, mostly existing and not adding many new outlets, keeping existing panel. Will doing this see any appreciable drop in electrical consumption, bills?

"Gareth Magennis" <soundserviceleeds@outlook.com>: Apr 25 08:31PM +0100 "Fred McKenzie" wrote in message news:fmmck-A2739E.12402325042017@46.sub-75-242-165.myvzw.com...   In article <cgtsfc1s1jiaodngnao4ftdoui749fg989@4ax.com>,   > I suppose I could just use the trial and error method without harming > anything, but I thought I'd just ask and do it right.   > Thanks   Gareth's suggestion will probably work OK. If you experience any problem with hum or distortion, look for an adapter to convert between XLR's low impedance and your single-ended high impedance.   A family of such adapters is Shure's A95 series "Line Matching Transformers". The A95A or A95F may meet your needs, depending on the gender of your XLR connector.   Reference <http://www.coutant.org/matching/a95.pdf>   Fred           ***********************************************************     The output from the receiver is likely to be an op-amp. The input of the power amp is also likely to be an op-amp. Both at line levels.   There is very little likelihood of requiring anything other than wires to connect these two items together IMHO.       Gareth.

You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to sci.electronics.repair+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.