- [Q] dimmer switch for halogen floor lamp - 25 Updates
| "Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com>: Jun 28 06:52PM +0100 "Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message news:ba045e58-cc1a-4c2c-91ea-5be70e72b5c3@googlegroups.com... > ** Any fact whatever would be HUGE surprise to a fuckwit like you. >> if stage lighting is over run for short periods > ** Errr - dimmers only dim lamps down, not up. They don't get any dimmer than you - some stage lighting used variacs that went up to 110%. |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jun 28 12:04PM -0700 It is often assumed that incandescent and halogen light bulbs are completely different technologies. In fact, halogen is just a hybrid incandescent. Both types of light bulbs use a tungsten filament. Both "burn out" when the filament breaks. Both use line and low voltage the same way. Also, both incandescent and halogen bulbs can be dimmed. But here's the interesting twist: the more a halogen bulb is dimmed, the more it becomes an incandescent light bulb again. How Incandescent and Halogen Differ The standard incandescent bulb is filled with a mixture of argon gas and a small amount of nitrogen gas. Inside this gas mix, the tungsten filament, heated to "incandescence", slowly evaporates. Thinner portions of the filament get hotter and they evaporate more quickly. The evaporated tungsten deposits on the inside wall of the glass. Eventually, the filament evaporates so much tungsten that it breaks or "burns out". A halogen bulb mimics the technology of incandescent except for two features. First, the filament and gas are contained in a quartz capsule resistant to high temperature. Second, a halogen gas such as bromine or iodine is added to the gas mix. With this gas mixture and higher filament temperatures, a chemical change occurs to the tungsten filament evaporation process. Instead of depositing the evaporated tungsten on the bulb glass, it is deposited instead back onto the filament itself. This process of filament regeneration is known as the halogen cycle. It can double the life of an incandescent bulb. In short the primary difference between halogen and incandescent is the existence of the halogen cycle operating in a quartz capsule. Dimming Halogen Lights and Bulb Life That brings us back to dimming. Dimming works the same way for both incandescent and halogen. Lower the filament temperature by modifying the voltage and get progressively less light output. The halogen cycle works only at high filament temperatures. If the halogen bulb is dimmed enough (down to only 20% less light), the filament temperature drops and the halogen cycle stops. At that point, it is operating in "incandescent mode" with evaporated tungsten being deposited on the capsule wall rather than back on the filament. Tip: While dimming often lengthens the life of incandescent bulbs, it may shorten the life of halogen bulbs and cause darkening of the quartz capsule. Thanks to: David Burtner http://www.topbulb.com/blog/dimming-alters-halogen-cycle/ Key Points: a) Halogen lamps are hybrid incandescent lamps. We knew that. b) The "Halogen Cycle" redeposits tungsten on the filament as compared to a standard incandescent lamp that gradually evaporates the tungsten. c) The halogen cycle stops at around 20% LESS LIGHT. That would be at/around 80% of full light. Whereupon the lamp behaves as a standard incandescent lamp. d) With all this in mind, a halogen lamp may be dimmed with the same technology, means and methods as a standard incandescent lamp. Primary effects are on life-span. The failure modes are unchanged, eventually the filament fails. It ain't nohow rocket science. Anyone with even a passing experience with lighting already knows all this -as well as even the lowliest sweeper at any given electrical supply house. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 28 01:58PM -0700 > Anyone with even a passing experience with lighting already knows all this -as well as even the lowliest sweeper at any given electrical supply house. > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA Since dimming is usually done at assorted levels, the above effect has sod all effect on lamp life in the real world in most cases. NT |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jun 28 02:05PM -0700 > Since dimming is usually done at assorted levels, the above effect has sod all effect on lamp life in the real world in most cases. Suffice it that if a halogen lamp operates at <80% of nominal voltage, the halogen effect (tungsten vapor re-depositing on the filament) will not take place - however that reduction-in-voltage occurs. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Jun 28 02:07PM -0700 > Anyone with even a passing experience with lighting already knows all this -as well as even the lowliest sweeper at any given electrical supply house. > Peter Wieck > Melrose Park, PA One more thing: if you look at a halogen lamp crosseyed the filament will fail from the shock of your stare.. The filaments are not supported as they are in a standard incandescent lamp so they must not be subject to shock or vibration. |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 28 05:16PM -0700 > On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 4:58:08 PM UTC-4, tabby wrote: > > Since dimming is usually done at assorted levels, the above effect has sod all effect on lamp life in the real world in most cases. > Suffice it that if a halogen lamp operates at <80% of nominal voltage, the I thought you said 80% of light output, an entirely different point to 80% of voltage > halogen effect (tungsten vapor re-depositing on the filament) will not take place - however that reduction-in-voltage occurs. At 80% voltage that would be an irrelevance. I presumed yuo know your filament lamp equations, now I'm not sure. NT |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 28 05:17PM -0700 On Wednesday, 28 June 2017 22:07:13 UTC+1, John-Del wrote: > One more thing: if you look at a halogen lamp crosseyed the filament will fail from the shock of your stare.. The filaments are not supported as they are in a standard incandescent lamp so they must not be subject to shock or vibration. Ah, that'll be why they've been so popular as car headlamps. It's the thin mains 50w ones that don't like vibration. NT |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 05:30PM -0700 Ian Field the Fuckwit Bullshit Artist wrote: --------------------------------------------- > > ** Errr - dimmers only dim lamps down, not up. > They don't get any dimmer than you - some stage lighting used variacs that > went up to 110%. ** Long in the past when there were no halogen lamps involved. You fuckwit, lying POS. .... Phil |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 05:50PM -0700 The Peter Wieck bullshit artist wrote: ------------------------------------------- ( snil pil eof bollocks) > Thanks to: David Burtner > http://www.topbulb.com/blog/dimming-alters-halogen-cycle/ ** Why on earth post that idiot article here??? It contains way more fiction than fact. > It ain't nohow rocket science. > Anyone with even a passing experience with lighting already knows all this -as well as even the lowliest sweeper at any given electrical supply house. ** Bollocks. How many halogen down lights are in domestic use round the world? The vast majority are being used with dimmers. Uses get several times more life by doing so. Burtner is a bullshitting fool. Like you. .... Phil |
| John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Jun 28 06:35PM -0700 On 2017/06/26 9:52 PM, Phil Allison wrote: > Having a thick filament makes a halogen lamp last longer. > ..... Phil Well, I must confess I've never studied halogen bulbs on dimmers but reading Lutron's site does not give any concerns from them about halogens on dimmers in household use: http://www.lutron.com/en-US/Education-Training/Pages/LCE/DimmingBasics.aspx I would like to assume that you are correct, Phil. One problem though - your reference source says: "With a reduced voltage the evaporation is lower and there may be too much halogen, which can lead to abnormal failure." and also: "There are many situations where halogen lamps are dimmed successfully. However, lamp life may not be extended as much as predicted. The life span on dimming depends on lamp construction, the halogen additive used and whether dimming is normally expected for this type." So, perhaps theatre halogen bulbs are designed to be dimmed? http://stagelightingprimer.com/slfs-light_sources.html Perhaps not, they don't mind of the bulb lasts a shorter time, but want the brightness in a compact source. Also, are house halogen bulbs designed to be dimmed? Philips bulbs seem to be (perhaps...): http://www.philips.ca/c-m-li/halogen-light-bulbs "Halogen lamps are designed to operate at very high temperatures to ensure optimal performance. Dimming at above 60% of the rated volts can be done. It is recommended to revert to full brightness for one minute prior to switching the lamps off." In other words do not run them above 60% of rated line voltage for extended times without heating/running them at 100% for one minute prior to turning off. I am SURE everyone will do that! A double blind test would be nice to put this to bed. John :-#)# |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 06:36PM -0700 John-Delusional wrote: --------------------------- > fail from the shock of your stare.. The filaments are not supported as > they are in a standard incandescent lamp so they must not be subject to > shock or vibration. ** See pics of 150W halogen tube lamps: http://www.destinationlighting.com/images/products_zoom/549/13549~zoom.jpg http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/1000/b7/b7e4d552-8a07-4441-a54c-0c250efeef67_1000.jpg https://images.musicstore.de/images/1600/omnilux-halogen-lamp-bulb-g-6-35-150-watts-24-volts_1_LIG0000456-000.jpg How about a 1000W one: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6174-2HVwIL._SL1500_.jpg .... Phil |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 28 06:43PM -0700 On Thursday, 29 June 2017 01:30:26 UTC+1, Phil Allison wrote: > Ian Field wrote: > > >> > That may be your belief. IRL halogen stage lighting works just fine. snip > > They don't get any dimmer than you - some stage lighting used variacs that > > went up to 110%. > ** Long in the past when there were no halogen lamps involved. Yes. I'm not sure how tolerant halogens would be of +10%. > You fuckwit, lying POS. no, just short on knowledge. NT |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 28 06:51PM -0700 On Thursday, 29 June 2017 02:35:41 UTC+1, John Robertson wrote: > to turning off. I am SURE everyone will do that! > A double blind test would be nice to put this to bed. > John :-#)# I fear you're taking a seller's waffle too seriously. Such things can be offloading liability and/or feigning expertise. The simple reality is halogens have been dimmed by all percentages in massive numbers and problems have not resulted. (I might feel like addressing the specific points raised another day.) NT |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 28 06:53PM -0700 On Thursday, 29 June 2017 02:36:55 UTC+1, Phil Allison wrote: > How about a 1000W one: > http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6174-2HVwIL._SL1500_.jpg > .... Phil Both types exist, with supports & without. NT |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 06:58PM -0700 John Robertson is a Google Monkey ----------------------------------- > So, perhaps theatre halogen bulbs are designed to be dimmed? ** Perhaps your fat arse is on fire ? Ever think of that? > ensure optimal performance. Dimming at above 60% of the rated volts can > be done. It is recommended to revert to full brightness for one minute > prior to switching the lamps off." ** Drivel, not real information. > In other words do not run them above 60% of rated line voltage for > extended times without heating/running them at 100% for one minute prior > to turning off. I am SURE everyone will do that! ** The false warning is about running halogen BELOW 60% rated voltage. 60% equates to about 10 to 15% of normal light output which is very dim. BTW: Ever see or use a halogen down light? Standard practice is to run them off dimmers at any level you like. Googling finds you every piece of misinformation that ever existed. .... Phil |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 07:23PM -0700 tabb...@gmail.com wrote: -------------------------- > You fuckwit, lying POS. > no, just short on knowledge. ** Ian Field is a prize fuckwit, a congenital liar and a POS. He makes facts up and uses false logic constantly. He is clearly an autistic dim wit. Just like thousands of other internet trolls. ..... Phil |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 28 07:42PM -0700 On Thursday, 29 June 2017 03:23:20 UTC+1, Phil Allison wrote: > He makes facts up and uses false logic constantly. > He is clearly an autistic dim wit. > Just like thousands of other internet trolls. That interpretation is partly why you get so angry over so little. NT |
| John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Jun 28 07:45PM -0700 On Wednesday, June 28, 2017 at 9:36:55 PM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote: > .... Phil Here Phallusun, read this: http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/apac/images/GE-Avoiding-Hot-Shock-Halogen-HIR_tcm281-33642.pdf Since this is not on Wikipedia (your go-to source of your "knowledge"), you might learn something about halogen and rough service. And when you're done reading it, print it out several dozen copies, roll them up and stick them firmly up you ass where it might do the rest of us some good. How many newsgroups do you have to pollute with your anal emanations before you realize that it's YOU. |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 08:11PM -0700 tabb...@gmail.com wrote: ---------------------------- Phil Allison wrote: > > He is clearly an autistic dim wit. > > Just like thousands of other internet trolls. > That interpretation ... ** It ain't no "interpretation" - pal. Field is a public menace on usenet and elsewhere too, I bet. FYI: I do not get angry, that is YOUR misinterpretation. But I reserve the RIGHT to publicly out and thoroughly condemn bullshit artists and trolls. Seems YOU have trouble even identifying them. .... Phil |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 08:24PM -0700 John-Delusional Fuckwit wrote: --------------------------------- > http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/apac/images/GE-Avoiding-Hot-Shock-Halogen-HIR_tcm281-33642.pdf ** You can see the links to several pics that I posted ? All of them show halogen tube lamps with multiple filament supports. They are real pics published by folk who make and sell the lamps. You can see them ?? Wot a fucking MORON. ..... Phil |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 28 09:25PM -0700 Phil Allison wrote: ---------------------- > https://images.musicstore.de/images/1600/omnilux-halogen-lamp-bulb-g-6-35-150-watts-24-volts_1_LIG0000456-000.jpg > How about a 1000W one: > http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6174-2HVwIL._SL1500_.jpg ** Here is a Sylvania 42W halogen replacement for a standard GLS bulb: https://media.tradezone.com.au/images/still/650/650/18579/30.jpg Note how the filament passes over a glass support bridge at the top of the small envelope. Most of the filament is coiled but the section over the bridge is not. .... Phil |
| John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>: Jun 28 10:32PM -0700 On 2017/06/28 6:58 PM, Phil Allison wrote: >> So, perhaps theatre halogen bulbs are designed to be dimmed? > ** Perhaps your fat arse is on fire ? > Ever think of that? Not sure what that has to do with the question raised by your source (wikipedia) where the point was raised that theatre lighting had their own expectations about the use of halogen bulbs. >> be done. It is recommended to revert to full brightness for one minute >> prior to switching the lamps off." > ** Drivel, not real information. Excuse me Phil, but I was quoting from YOUR wikipedia reference source, not mine. >> extended times without heating/running them at 100% for one minute prior >> to turning off. I am SURE everyone will do that! > ** The false warning is about running halogen BELOW 60% rated voltage. Not the same thing, they are using the word above to mean above 60% of rated voltage, not below 60% rated voltage. At least that was how I read your source - the wikipedia article quoted by you in previous email. Which I read. > BTW: > Ever see or use a halogen down light? > Standard practice is to run them off dimmers at any level you like. Of course, people will do whatever they like - that was not the question. The original question was was it a good idea to run halogen lights on dimmers and would it adversely affect their rated life span. > Googling finds you every piece of misinformation that ever existed. > ..... Phil You may be an excellent designer of electronics, but are you a halogen lighting expert too? Or are you (like me) just putting forward opinion based on personal research and/or anecdotal experiences? This is supposed to be a learning tool for all concerned after all, is it not? John |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jun 29 12:09AM -0700 John Robertson is a Moronic Google Monkey ----------------------------------------- > > ** Perhaps your fat arse is on fire ? > > Ever think of that? > Not sure what that has to do with the question raised by your source ** It was not my "source" - fool. > (wikipedia) where the point was raised that theatre lighting had their > own expectations about the use of halogen bulbs. ** Says nothing like that. Quote, do not rephrase. > > ** Drivel, not real information. > Excuse me Phil, ** Never. > but I was quoting from YOUR wikipedia reference source, ** That is NOT from any Wiki. Some industry crap YOU dragged up Google monkeying. Do pay attention. > > ** The false warning is about running halogen BELOW 60% rated voltage. > Not the same thing, ** FFS - you are illiterate & stupid. > > Standard practice is to run them off dimmers at any level you like. > Of course, people will do whatever they like - that was not the > question. ** But it is the answer to the question - you fool. > The original question was was it a good idea to run halogen > lights on dimmers and would it adversely affect their rated life span. ** And we have overwhelming proof there is no such problem from the MILLIONS of householders successfully doing it every day. Are you blind by any chance? > > Googling finds you every piece of misinformation that ever existed. ** Copy out the above line 1000 times before you go to bed. > You may be an excellent designer of electronics, but are you a halogen > lighting expert too? ** Yep, some of my customers own large lighting rigs using mainly 500W and 1000W halogen lamps. I get to service their dimmers and boards and see the lamps operating too. Halogen lamps are used in slide projectors, bought one of them in 1976. One of my workshop lamps uses is a 150W halogen tube, I get to replace it every once in a while. 12V down lights are all halogen. The buggers are all around me so I take a strong interest. Go away, fool. ...... Phil |
| John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Jun 29 04:11AM -0700 On Thursday, June 29, 2017 at 12:25:16 AM UTC-4, Phil Allison wrote: |
| tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jun 29 04:12AM -0700 On Thursday, 29 June 2017 04:11:09 UTC+1, Phil Allison wrote: > > > Just like thousands of other internet trolls. > > That interpretation ... > ** It ain't no "interpretation" - pal. then nothing will change |
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