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Cursitor Doom <curd@notformail.com>: Jul 02 09:59PM On Sat, 01 Jul 2017 19:24:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote:   > difference between what's going in and what's going out on your electron > counter (coulomb meter).   > Note: This is 100% pure BS, but it sounds logical.   Plus they're not sending me any *voltage* either! The pos and neg half- cycles are equal in magnitude either side of zero volts, so the average voltage I'm getting over the course of a billing period is zero. And they only briefly *lend* me electrons - yet they have the nerve to wonder why I constantly complain! Bastards.

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 02 04:10PM -0700 On Sun, 2 Jul 2017 12:13:01 +0100, Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com> wrote:     >> Note: This is 100% pure BS, but it sounds logical.   >Are you training to be a politician? ;-) >Mike.   No training required. I'm a natural.   Ok, let me try again. A solar panel is know to "produce" electricity, also known as electrons. According to NASA: <https://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2002/solarcells> "When light energy strikes the solar cell, electrons are knocked loose from the atoms in the semiconductor material. If electrical conductors are attached to the positive and negative sides, forming an electrical circuit, the electrons can be captured in the form of an electric current -- that is, electricity. This electricity can then be used to power a load, such as a light or a tool."   So, if photons can "knock loose" electrons, and send them on their way to be consumed by some load, what happens to the spaces vacated by these electrons? Does their passage turn the solar panels to Swiss cheese, eventually depleting all the electrons? Is that why solar panels lose output with age? As I previously speculated, if the solar panel "produces" electricity (electrons), then shouldn't the current leaving the solar panel be greater than the current entering?   Hmmm... if I can sell this load of manure, I can sell anything. Maybe I should run for public office after I retire from the repair biz. Is there a financially attractive pulbic office available for a reasonable bribe?     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Jul 02 07:25PM -0400 Cursitor Doom wrote on 7/2/2017 5:59 PM: > voltage I'm getting over the course of a billing period is zero. And they > only briefly *lend* me electrons - yet they have the nerve to wonder why > I constantly complain! Bastards.   You don't get to keep the beer you drink. Do you complain to Coors that their beer ends up raising your sewer bill?   --   Rick C

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jul 02 07:01PM -0500 On 7/2/2017 6:25 PM, rickman wrote: > You don't get to keep the beer you drink. Do you complain to > Coors that their beer ends up raising your sewer bill?   *Grins* Don't encourage him....     -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com   --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com

Madness <madness.mail@gmail.com>: Jul 03 06:15AM -0400 On 7/2/2017 8:01 PM, Foxs Mercantile wrote: >> Coors that their beer ends up raising your sewer bill?   > *Grins* > Don't encourage him....   You know, I complained to Coca-Cola about how their 2-liter bottles kept running out as I drank 'em. They, more-or-less, told me where to go!

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 03 06:34AM -0700 On Mon, 3 Jul 2017 06:15:26 -0400, Madness <madness.mail@gmail.com> wrote:   >> Don't encourage him....   >You know, I complained to Coca-Cola about how their 2-liter bottles kept >running out as I drank 'em. They, more-or-less, told me where to go!   I have a similar problem with evaporating jelly beans. I keep a jar of them on my office desk. Over a period of one to three weeks, the jelly beans would slowly disappear. I trust visiting customers, delivery services, salesmen, neighbors, friends, visitors, fire inspectors, diabetics, etc to be honest and confess to stealing some when I ask. Since nobody has done so, I can only conclude that the seal on the jar is inadequate after opening, causing the contents to evaporate. I have attempted to measure the effect using a precision jewelery scale, but have been unable to retain a sample long enough to measure before it disappears. Obviously, there must be a conspiracy to supress the effect. Googling for scientific papers on jelly bean evaporation finds that no research has been done on the topic. Notice that the contents of some jelly beans include "evaporated cane juice" which makes me suspect that the evaporation continues in the jar: <https://www.forbes.com/sites/legalnewsline/2017/05/22/sued-over-sugar-in-jelly-beans-jelly-bellys-response-this-is-nonsense/>     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

jurb6006@gmail.com: Jul 03 07:27AM -0700 On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 8:34:55 AM UTC-5, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com > Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com > Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558   You are a nut. But being a Jew I assume there is a madness to your method. (or does that go the other way ?)   But jellybeans turn me off. So do all of those gummy candies. I cannot understand how anyone could eat that. To me it doesn't even look like food.   But about you jellybeans and their apparent evaporation, you are the one who forgot to put a price tag on them. Just on the jar would suffice actually but you put forth the idea that they are just free. So when people take them, whaddya want me to shoot them ?

Madness <madness.mail@gmail.com>: Jul 03 10:58AM -0400 On 7/3/2017 9:34 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > I have a similar problem with evaporating jelly beans.   Not sure about jelly beans, but I do have a problem w/ regular beans. They disappear as I eat them (which is bad enough), but then they cause me to keep sending gas into the air. Now, I'm told that a majority of that gas is methane, which could be useful, but is only causing air pollution! :)

Mike Coon <gravity@mjcoon.plus.com>: Jul 03 04:17PM +0100 In article <ojdlr1$281$1@dont-email.me>, madness.mail@gmail.com says... > me to keep sending gas into the air. Now, I'm told that a majority of > that gas is methane, which could be useful, but is only causing air > pollution! :)   I believe land-fill sites have methane recovery systems, so that is where to get buried...   Mike.

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Jul 03 11:33AM -0500 > But being a Jew I assume there is a madness to your method.   The fuck is your problem?   -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com   --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com

cheryltano@gmail.com: Jul 03 08:57AM -0700 Hi,   I am having (I think) a similar problem, and wonder if you might have any advice. Had a driveway light off my kitchen panel, which started to stay on all the time, a week or so ago, ignored my shutting the switch.   Early this morning (Boston area, hot weather all week- maybe some type of power surge issue in the city?) a few lights suddenly went on by themselves.   I put manual override in my Vantage box in basement, on, then off. Circuit breakers on, then off. And all of the Vantage lights that had been staying on, went off, and were okay, except the entire kitchen area, where there are maybe 8 or 10 different lights. Now I have nothing at all in there, unless I put the manual override back on, and then all kitchen lights are on, and stay on.   Does this sound like a fuse in the module issue to you, by any chance? And if so, is that a special fuse that has to be ordered from Vantage, or would any old fuse replacement do? (The system is at least 10 years old, here when I bought it).   Naturally, this happens on July 3, when lots of people are off for the holiday. Worse things could happen...

frank <frank@invalid.net>: Jul 03 09:57AM Hi all, I was trying my Heathkit curve tracer on a gas discharge transient suppressor (striking at about 200V) and I've found the following behaviour:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeKPkG5T1xc   Basicly it seems to heavily ring on the turn-off curve? This kind of devices should just show a two lines curve in theory. My curve tracer appears to work fine on other less exotic devices (BJT, zeners). Can someone explain what is happening? Thanks   Frank IZ8DWF

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 03 06:42AM -0700 On Mon, 3 Jul 2017 09:57:35 -0000 (UTC), frank <frank@invalid.net> wrote:   >Can someone explain what is happening? >Thanks   >Frank IZ8DWF   My guess(tm) is that the unspecified maker and model gas discharge tube might be filled with a gas that exhibits a negative resistance characteristic, similar to a neon lamp, and therefore may be oscillating. Neon, argon, and krypton are common gasses. Some gas discharge tubes include something radioactive to lower the threshold voltage. <https://www.google.com/search?q=neon+lamp+relaxation+oscillator> You might try substituting a common NE-2 neon lamp for the suppressor. If the mess on the screen looks similar, then oscillation is the likely culprit.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 02 10:19AM -0700 On Sun, 2 Jul 2017 04:31:24 -0500, Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net> wrote:   >> bases is not a problem. Younger metric people are base 10 only!   >Not hardly, people don't think of 10 inches as 0.833 feet nor do >they think of 10 feet as 3.333 yards.   Wrong. You're creating more digits than was originally intended by adding spurious significant figures. 10 inches has only two significant figures. Therefore: 10 in = 0.83 ft = 0.00016 miles = 0.57 Roman cubits and so on.   For domestic consumption, I use US units. For scientific, I use metric units. For political discussions (i.e. AGW) or when I want to confuse the reader, I use SI units. When dealing with government agencies, I use the same as what they prefer, which are usually units of measure that have been aged for at least 100 years. For Usenet discussions, I use a wide mixture of these, to insure that my assertions and guessing cannot be verified.     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Jul 02 02:12PM -0400 Jeff Liebermann wrote on 7/2/2017 1:19 PM: > significant figures. Therefore: > 10 in = 0.83 ft = 0.00016 miles = 0.57 Roman cubits > and so on.   I see you attended the same school as my chemistry lab professor. "Significant digits" is an idea that is very dated and was only useful when performing the simplest calculations like the ones we did on a slide rule. The real issue is accuracy. I can measure 10 feet with an accuracy better than a sixteenth of an inch (yeah, I said sixteenth because that's how my tapes are marked off) and I will still note it as 10 feet.   When I perform calculations I want to preserve the accuracy of the result, so the calculations are done with a higher degree of accuracy than the initial data. How much more accuracy should be used depends on the extent and nature of the calculations. One subtraction of large numbers can result in a small number which does not have nearly as much accuracy as the initial data. Add to that lack of accuracy with limited precision intermediate representation and you can end up with pointless data.   I would also point out that in both cases the final digits repeat. There is no way to show a vinculum in ascii so seeing repeating digits at the end of a fraction is a clue. There is nothing wrong with specifying the conversion exactly. 10 inches is 0.833 (vinculum implied but not shown). Leave it off and you *add* to the initial error.   --   Rick C

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 02 01:27PM -0700 >> 10 in = 0.83 ft = 0.00016 miles = 0.57 Roman cubits >> and so on.   >I see you attended the same school as my chemistry lab professor.   Probably. The standard lecture was to pace off some distance ending up a bit short. One then measures the remaining distance to a much higher degree of precision. Take the number of paces, multiply by 1 yard/pace, add the precision measured distance, and the sum is a fairly useless number.   How accurate can the average tape measure wielding reader measure 10 inches? My guess(tm) is no more than ±0.05 inch.   >The real issue is accuracy. I can measure 10 feet with an accuracy better >than a sixteenth of an inch (yeah, I said sixteenth because that's how my >tapes are marked off) and I will still note it as 10 feet.   If you use a tape measure to an accuracy better than ±1/16th of an inch or 0.0625 inches, your actual distance would land somewhere between 9.9375 and 10.0625. This does not mean that your tape measure is accurate to 1/10,000th of an inch. To be accurate, one needs to specify the measurement tolerances, as is common on all mechanical drawings and an amazing number of schematics that still display tolerances.   Using a steel rule, if you're able to measure the required 10 inches to perhaps ±0.1 inches, then the correct representation would be 10.0 inches. 10 inches implies an accuracy of ±1 inch as measured by the number of spans of my index finger between the first two joints.   >When I perform calculations I want to preserve the accuracy of the result, >so the calculations are done with a higher degree of accuracy than the >initial data.   Argh. I sometimes see that in parts drawings. Some newly minted mechanical designer grinds out every dimension to whatever number of digits he has his calculator configured, and then doesn't bother providing a usable tolerance. The result is the machine shop doesn't know if they need to cut metal to ±1/10,000th of an inch, or something less. Such excess precision tends to dramatically raise parts costs. If you want to preserve your accuracy on your own design notes, that's fine. Just don't submit those numbers to anyone that has to make or price the part.   >in a small number which does not have nearly as much accuracy as the initial >data. Add to that lack of accuracy with limited precision intermediate >representation and you can end up with pointless data.   Yep. That's roughly what I've been mumbling about.   >a fraction is a clue. There is nothing wrong with specifying the conversion >exactly. 10 inches is 0.833 (vinculum implied but not shown). Leave it off >and you *add* to the initial error.   Very true. The convention is to round off anything that ends in 5 to the next higher digit. So, 0.8333333333 will round off to 0.833 or 0.83 or 0.8 and: 0.8666666666 will round off to 0.867 or 0.87 or 0.9 If you have a tolerance available, writing 8.6666666666666666 ±0.001 would not make much sense. It should be written: 8.666 ±0.001 .         -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Jul 02 04:12PM -0700 On Sunday, 2 July 2017 18:19:23 UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > of measure that have been aged for at least 100 years. For Usenet > discussions, I use a wide mixture of these, to insure that my > assertions and guessing cannot be verified.   Lol. Reminds me when I got criticised for mixing metric & imperial in a technical drawing. Widget A was normally supplied in imperial units, widget B in mm, so it was the sensible way to go. But bigco bs ruled, causing extra work to be done.     NT

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 02 07:26PM -0700 >units, widget B in mm, so it was the sensible way to go. But >bigco bs ruled, causing extra work to be done. >NT   Chuckle. Sounds very familiar. I haven't mixed dimensions on a technical drawing yet, mostly because I usually have someone else do the work. However, a few months ago, I gave an ill prepared and short notice talk on radiation measurement, where I managed to mix the older conventional units of measure (Curie, Rad, and Rem) with the new and not so improved SI units (Becquerel, Sievert, and Gray). <https://emergency.cdc.gov/radiation/measurement.asp> Audience confusion was averted by me having a conversion program running on my tablet, where I was able to rapidly supply numbers in both measurement system. I'm fairly functional in both systems, as is evident by being able to make the same mistakes in both systems, but forgot that others have their personal preferences.   Actually, there's a 3rd system of radiation measurement that I fortunately didn't mention. Health physics uses electron volts (eV) or sometimes joules to measure radiation dosage.   In my area of expertise, the RF industry has resisted pressure to name units of measure after notable dead scientists and instead uses fundamental units and ratios. It sometimes gets a bit complexicated, such as RF field power, density, intensity, etc. I have a handy cheat sheet available to keep me sane: <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/coverage/VZW-water-plant/Field%20Intensity%20and%20Power%20Density.pdf> That audio industry does much of the same with various dB over some reference level measurements (dB, dBm, dBw, dBC, dBA, dBi, dBu, dBmV, dBV, dB/uV, dBrn, dB-SPL, dBrnC, etc). More: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel#Suffixes_and_reference_values>     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien1@virginmedia.com>: Jul 02 08:41PM +0100 "Phil Allison" <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1278b8c5-45ee-4442-ada9-d7ebfea2d8af@googlegroups.com...   > http://sound.whsites.net/counterfeit.htm   > For a long time now, it has not been safe to buy power BJTs from ANY small > supplier or on line dealer - cos their stock consists MOSTLY of fakes.   Big trusted suppliers get stung too.   There are very few dodgy little pharmaceutical distributors and the big boys get hit just as hard. If they can't keep it clean - component suppliers never will.

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jul 02 06:42PM -0700 Ian Field wrote:   -----------------------     > > For a long time now, it has not been safe to buy power BJTs from ANY small > > supplier or on line dealer - cos their stock consists MOSTLY of fakes.   > Big trusted suppliers get stung too.   ** Responsible companies ( like Farnell, Digikey and RS Components ) make sure that all stock is traceable back to the factories that made them.   Semiconductor makers have networks of authorised dealers in each country and advise that you must buy from one of them to be certain you are getting genuine stuff.   Businesses who's semiconductor stock is full of fakes have no idea where any of it really came from and don't give a damn.   Grey market semiconductor dealers find Ebay accommodates them happily.     .... Phil   .... Phil

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