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Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 04 08:59PM -0600 On 2/4/19 7:43 PM, arlen holder wrote: Nothing of interest as usual.   Quack quack quack, ding, reverse direction.   -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

arlen holder <arlen@arlen.com>: Feb 05 04:11AM On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 20:59:38 -0600, Fox's Mercantile wrote:   > Quack quack quack, ding, reverse direction.   Two points which _adults_ will comprehend.   1. Snit here acts like a child _all_ the time, and, 2. Snit here didn't even _attempt_ to answer the OP's question.   We really shouldn't fault him as his brain _is_ that of a child. o He proves that fact in _every_ post - as he did here.   Meanwhile, I at least attempted to faithfully answer the guy's question. o And, yet, Snit (aka Fox's Mercantile), calls everyone but himself, a troll.   I don't even have to prove these two statements since he proves it himself. o What Snit (aka Fox's Mercantile) wries, proves these two facts.   1. Snit (aka Fox's Mercantile) is _never_ purposefully helpful, and, 2. Snit (aka Fox's Mercantile) _always_ proves to own the brain of a child.   The funny thing is that it's not even an ad hominem attack! o It's simply pointing out what Fox's Mercantile proves himself to be a fact.

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Feb 04 11:48PM -0500 In article <072fc2e7-dc4d-48ac-b069-4fe7224adbac@googlegroups.com>, ohger1s@gmail.com says...   > I've always been told that short run times creates condensation and acid in the motor oil from incomplete warmup - get her good and hot to drive off moisture. I realize the OP was asking about charging times, but he'd be better served by letting that old Buick idle for a good half an hour every few weeks, or better yet, have OP take the old girl for a blast.   > > OTH, Harbor Freight has cheap little float chargers but 120v power > > will be needed. A friend uses one of these when out of the country: > > https://www.harborfreight.com/automatic-battery-float-charger-42292.html   I am using one of those HF float chargers to hold up a lawn mower battery over the winter. I really use that battery to power a sprayer instead of the lawn mower.   My mower is in a shed with out power. I have a small solar cell about the size of a mouse pad to keep it charged over the winter months.   If starting the mower, I would run it long enough to get the motor and exhaust system hot. Maybe a 5 ot 10 mile trip to the store and back once every 2 weeks or so. It will probably do the other parts of the car some good also.

bitrex <user@example.net>: Feb 05 12:03AM -0500 On 02/04/2019 08:30 PM, arlen holder wrote: > coincidentally - is about how long it took to run the quick math. :)   > If that 72 second answer is wrong, I welcome someone who can tell us how to > arrive at the better answer.   <https://www.jstor.org/stable/44611429?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents>   It's behind a pay-wall but I can probably get my hands on a copy

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Feb 04 09:53PM -0800 On Tuesday, 5 February 2019 01:30:57 UTC, arlen holder wrote: > coincidentally - is about how long it took to run the quick math. :)   > If that 72 second answer is wrong, I welcome someone who can tell us how to > arrive at the better answer.     Best answer so far. 100A would only be delivered to a flat battery, it'll charge much slower than that. There's also the parasitic loads to make up for, the electronics that eats power when the vehicle is off and on.   You're better off testing battery voltage and not doing anything until it drops enough to warrant charging. Leads acids don't like sitting even half discharged, keep it near full.     NT

arlen holder <arlen@arlen.com>: Feb 05 01:30AM On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 16:45:34 -0500, Tom Del Rosso wrote:   > you run it to make up for the charge lost in starting?   > In this case it's my neighbor's 87 Buick Regal while he's in the > hospital.   72 seconds   Having said that, here's how I arrived at 72 seconds, bearing in mind there's a complexity to your question which, outside of the engineering specs of both the battery & engine (and parasitics), we can only help you guess at it mathematically, where empirical results would seem to be more accurate than our guestimates.   Starting with the basics, a quick search for a Buick Regal Alternator nets <https://www.partsgeek.com/catalog/1987/buick/regal/engine_electrical/alternator.html> which says the alternator outputs 100 amps at idle (if needed) and 150 amps output at max rpm (again, if needed as alternators adjust output based on "B" sensing).   Running a direct search for the power needed to start an 87 Buick Regal, it's easy to find the vehicle, but hard to find the power needed to start the engine: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick_Regal#Grand_National,_Turbo-T,_T-Type,_and_GNX>   We're kind of stuck with the "generic" stuff, such as this: o How Many Amps Does It Take to Start a Car? <https://www.reference.com/vehicles/many-amps-start-car-e35b6f3d4d8bf426> Which says an average car needs 400 to 500 amps but doesn't say how long.   Let's assume it takes five to ten seconds to start it, at 500 amps, where the maximum power would be 10 seconds times 500 amps, which means you sucked out 5,000 Coulombs (i.e., 5000 amp seconds) if the math is right.   If I did the math right, that's less than 1.5 amp hours, and since we guessed high, I'd say the amount used is roughly about 1 amp hour to 1.5 amp hours, but since we want to "be safe" and have "easy math", I'd use 2 amp hours as the amount to add back.   If you put back two amp hours (to cover for inherent losses, mostly in heat), you're back to where you started, where we have to "assume" that the battery sense circuit allows the alternator to output enough current to charge the battery after just one start.   At idle, if we assume the battery sense allows you to get those 100 amps we saw in the spec, to generate 2 amp hours would take only about 0.02 hours, or about 72 seconds (if I did the quick math right) - which - coincidentally - is about how long it took to run the quick math. :)   If that 72 second answer is wrong, I welcome someone who can tell us how to arrive at the better answer.

arlen holder <arlen@arlen.com>: Feb 05 01:43AM On Mon, 4 Feb 2019 17:05:13 -0800 (PST), John-Del wrote:     > NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! Don't suggest a solution (even a cheap one) > that comes from a credit card lest Arlen Holder or one of his socks > pitches a fit!!!   First off, neither of you appeared to have _comprehended_ the question, which was how much time does it take to recharge the battery to compensate for the charge lost in starting, which I roughly calculated at about 72 seconds, meaning, a couple of minutes "should" recharge the battery if the assumptions I made were reasonable.   Even if you did _comprehend_ the question, you made no attempt to _answer_ the OP's question, which, is par for the course since all you _can_ do is off-topic chit-chat drivel.   NOTE: I don't need to prove that statement since you prove it for me.   Moving on though, assuming the OP is satisfied with the 72 second assumption, there _is_ a question of how often he _needs_ to charge the battery.   I wonder if you, John-Del, have the brains to answer _that_ question? (HINT: I don't think you do ... but maybe you'll prove me wrong.)   HINT: I already calculated it in the same minute (or so) that I calculated the answer I provided - but I didn't post it because, unlike you, I actually _comprehended_ the question that the OP had asked.   HINT: If you can't take a hint - you always prove to be _stupid_, John-Doe. DOUBLEHINT: The proof will be in exactly what you write in response.

gregz <zekor@comcast.net>: Feb 05 08:19AM > In this case it's my neighbor's 87 Buick Regal while he's in the > hospital.   > --   A real test at idle, turn on lights. If revving the engine makes them brighter, you have little reserve power to charge battery. For a fast charge you need 14 or more volts.   Greg

gregz <zekor@comcast.net>: Feb 05 08:20AM > exhaust system hot. Maybe a 5 ot 10 mile trip to the store and back > once every 2 weeks or so. It will probably do the other parts of the > car some good also.   My HF floaters make too much bubbling on a charged battery.   Greg

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 05 04:37AM -0800 On Monday, February 4, 2019 at 4:45:38 PM UTC-5, Tom Del Rosso wrote:   > In this case it's my neighbor's 87 Buick Regal while he's in the > hospital.   > --   God Help Us! This was given in Drivers'Ed. I must be VERY old.   The rules of thumb are as follows. All times at ~1,000 rpm.   a) For a pre-catalyst car, a minimum of 15 minutes. This will bring every part of the system above the temperatures necessary to boil water out of the oil and the exhaust. This will also re-coat the cylinders with oil - which tends to be rinsed off by the very rich mixture on starting, especially when the outside temperatures are below freezing.   b) Post-Catalyst, carburetor: About the same, maybe only 10 - 12 minutes, as the catalyst will do a fine job of heating the exhaust. A V8 or other large-displacement engine will take longer.   c) Fuel-injected, 7 - 12 minutes. This directly related to engine displacement. Big = more time.   The physics of removing moisture from the oil becomes the driver (pun intended). The system must reach full operating temperature and stay there for a couple of minutes. Pretty much when moisture (steam) stops coming out of the tailpipe - and then a few minutes.   If you open the oil-fill cap and find a milky foam, you haven't been doing it long enough.

John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Feb 05 04:42AM -0800 On Monday, February 4, 2019 at 8:43:17 PM UTC-5, arlen holder wrote: >a bit steaming pile of bullshit       You don't have a clue how to answer that question.   You've left out the variables that *must* be included to calculate the recharge time.   Car batteries have an internal resistance that changes from the minute it's installed until it's finally dead. As it ages, the car battery's internal resistance rises and it won't draw the same current as it did when it was new. Batteries slowly sulfate over time and the more sulfated the car battery is, the larger the battery's capacitor effect is and the longer it takes to charge. Car alternators often don't provide their rated current, particularly when they are older. You left out the temperature of the components and the quality of wiring involved. Is that old Buick even idling at it's programmed rpm?   You also left out the self discharging of the battery and the standby parasitic drag from the car's computer and accessories, so that must be added to the charge time. OP asked about replenishment charge time but he also said he wants to start the car to keep the battery from self discharging. His question was two-fold, and in the real world, the best advice is keep a float charger on it or, better yet, run the car on the road to charge the battery, boil off condensation and contaminants in the fluids, and keep moving parts moving.   If OP starts that car, runs it 72 seconds and shuts it off, that battery won't last.

Look165 <look165@numericable.fr>: Feb 05 02:22PM +0100 It's just an equation. (I suppose a 12V car battery).   3s of starter, means 3*(900/12) C = 225C = 62.5mAh=0.0625Ah (900W is the starter power). Just add this to the loss of the battery.   Knowing that the alternator charges at 13.8V about 500W (500/(13.8-12)  i.e. 200As=0.55Ah , it's easy.     Tom Del Rosso a écrit le 04/02/2019 à 22:45 :

"pfjw@aol.com" <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Feb 05 05:38AM -0800 Arlen Holder and its various socks and clones is a genuinely dangerous individual and should be muzzled, blind-folded, have its fingers in mittens, encased in epoxy and super-glued to the opposite shoulders, feet tied, crossed and bent back at the knees, tied to its legs.   Only then will it be rendered very nearly harmless.   Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA

Rob <nomail@example.com>: Feb 05 02:03PM > c) Fuel-injected, 7 - 12 minutes. This directly related to engine displacement. Big = more time.   > The physics of removing moisture from the oil becomes the driver (pun intended). The system must reach full operating temperature and stay there for a couple of minutes. Pretty much when moisture (steam) stops coming out of the tailpipe - and then a few minutes.   > If you open the oil-fill cap and find a milky foam, you haven't been doing it long enough.   Those times are probably not long enough. Even in my small car (4-cyl 1.6L engine) I find that after a lot of 15-minute runs the oil temperature caps at 100C when driving a bit longer, and it requires a 45 minute drive or so before it rises to 110-120C.

arlen holder <arlen@arlen.com>: Feb 05 02:26PM On Tue, 5 Feb 2019 00:03:14 -0500, bitrex wrote:   > <https://www.jstor.org/stable/44611429?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents>   > It's behind a pay-wall but I can probably get my hands on a copy   Having authored peer-reviewed papers myself (in a different field), I took a quick peek at the abstract of that paper, titled: o Computer Simulation of an I.C. Engine During Cranking by a Starter Motor <https://www.jstor.org/stable/44611429?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents>   "A mathematical model is developed to study the transient behavior of a two stroke or four stroke, single cylinder I.C. engine during cranking and starting by a starter motor. The engine model includes forces due to inertia of reciprocating and rotating parts of engine, gas pressure, frictional loss while starter motor dynamics is determined by the motor's torque versus speed behavior. The numerical results of the analysis when compared with the experimental results showed close correlation. Engine starting by three models of starter motor is presented for a given battery. Effect of different parameters like engine inertia and reduction ratio between engine and a starter motor is described. It is shown here how this analysis can be effectively used as a first step by an engine designer for determining a suitable starter motor characteristic and its related transmission parameters."   Hmmm... they _might_ cover the charge payback component, but I suspect likely it will only be an ancillary input to the mathematical model, and certainly it won't apply _directly_ to an 87 Buick Regal.   We should note that the given "battery" is seemingly incidental in this paper, which seems to be aimed more toward designing starter motors, and, specifically between choosing among three different types of fundamental starter motor designs.   Still, it may be an interesting read, where, I'd be curious how the three types of starter motors affected the model - but - I hazard a guess that we won't find a direct answer for our charge component in that paper.

bitrex <user@example.net>: Feb 05 10:00AM -0500 On 02/04/2019 04:45 PM, Tom Del Rosso wrote: > you run it to make up for the charge lost in starting?   > In this case it's my neighbor's 87 Buick Regal while he's in the > hospital.   Here's a modern review of a 1989 Buick Century:   <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKYMgfjCd7E>   "Boomers were in their early 40s and at the height of their power - they understood the world, and the world turned according to their whims. They understood computers because floppy disks were goddamn floppy, and they knew the HIV virus was out there doing the good Lord's work."

bitrex <user@example.net>: Feb 05 10:10AM -0500 On 02/05/2019 10:00 AM, bitrex wrote: > understood the world, and the world turned according to their whims. > They understood computers because floppy disks were goddamn floppy, and > they knew the HIV virus was out there doing the good Lord's work."   The '87 Buick Regal is quite a different car from the Century, though.   I kinda picture a black '87 Buick Regal being the kind of car in the late 80s or early 90s driven by a teenager in a jean jacket/vest with AC/DC patches on it, hockey hair/"business in front party in back", earring in the _left_ ear, smoking his Dad's Parliaments in the high school parking lot with his 13 y/o girlfriend keeping an eye out for some little _faggot_ to beat down for his lunch money. "Hey you. yeah, you, you little queer. Give me your fuckin' lunch money you little bitch boy!"

Fox's Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Feb 05 09:44AM -0600 I have a '96 Chevy Astro van. It's about a 1/4 mile from the house to shop. If all I do is go back and forth, by the end of the week, I have to put the battery on a charger to "refill it" properly. If I drive to Walmart, 10 miles each way, its more than happy. I also have a '02 Dodge Dakota. Which ever vehicle I'm not driving has a Harbor Freight "top off" charger on it to maintain things while they are parked. It's that simple.     -- "I am a river to my people." Jeff-1.0 WA6FWi http:foxsmercantile.com

John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Feb 05 08:05AM -0800 On Tuesday, February 5, 2019 at 10:44:29 AM UTC-5, Fox's Mercantile wrote: > Jeff-1.0 > WA6FWi > http:foxsmercantile.com   I have a C5 Corvette which I store for the winter. If that car is not run in 5 weeks, the battery is DEAD (won't even click the starter solenoid). That is normal behavior for this particular car. When I had an early 2000s Mustang, that car could sit 5 months and start in the spring like it was run the day before. Depends on the car, but between self discharge of the battery and the particular car's parasitic loss, cars need much more than "72" seconds to keep charged.

gregz <zekor@comcast.net>: Feb 05 08:23AM >> Deoxit range is available at the guitar center stores. > https://www.guitarcenter.com/CAIG/DeoxIT-Gold-G5-Spray-Contact-Conditioner-5-oz.gc > still expensive but lasts a long time really.   The new nozzles make sure you need to buy more shortly.   Greg

Look165 <look165@numericable.fr>: Feb 05 09:50AM +0100 I've been using Seicront KF dor a long time , but laws considerations have killed it. It was the best.   It is replaced by Siceront F2 which a little less efficent, but still useful.

Babu H. <caedfaa9ed1216d60ef78a6f660f5f85_13886@example.com>: Feb 05 06:44AM replying to Dennis M, Babu H. wrote: As the batteries start to lose its voltage it does strange things like statics. Since the Controller inside works on pulses the unit thinks its Data and may turn on and send a signal to the Receiver   -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/maintenance/wireless-doorbells-400070-.htm

The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com>: Feb 04 08:19PM -0800 On 02/04/2019 03:16 PM, arlen holder wrote:   > Yup. I have some a friend gave me from Alibaba orders where he ordered a > ton of them. They were highly unreliable in my Samsung Galaxy S3. I gave up > on them, even though they were huge in capacity.   Crap. The phablet was from an Alibaba Express seller, not ebay. Ebay's record is now PRISTINE!   > mountains). They are the BEST gasoline cans sold in California, bar none, > and that's saying something because the Blitz and other gas cans I have > from Lowes and Home Depot and Ace all suck like you can't believe.   A while back the State of California in its infinite wisdom decreed that gas cans shall be made in such a way as to benefit the environment while enraging the users. That may have been removing the little vent on the opposite side from the spout or something completely different. There are do-it-yourself or buy-it-yourself solutions to the problem. Years ago, and our steel jerry cans might have been made by actual Jerries.     -- Cheers, Bev Horn broken. Watch for finger.

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Feb 04 11:52PM -0500 In article <q3b2tb$j1$1@dont-email.me>, bashley101@gmail.com says... > opposite side from the spout or something completely different. There > are do-it-yourself or buy-it-yourself solutions to the problem. Years > ago, and our steel jerry cans might have been made by actual Jerries   It is not so much the vent, but the newer self closing spouts. I do not live in California,but guess the whole country is suffering. I have spilled more gas out of a 2 gallon 'safe' spout trying to fill a weed eater and chain saw than I ever have out of the older vented cans I have.

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