| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 03:16PM MightyWannabe wrote: > jump start another car. The rectifiers of your car is supplying electric > current from the alternator and can overload due to the jump start > operation. In the recipient car, when the engine finally starts, I was told since I was young that the best way to "absorb" some of the excess current in the first few seconds is for the recipient to turn on the headlights. This seems counterintuitive from the recipient's standpoint in terms of "using" current but the theory is that the "B" sense circuit of the alternator (which is just a coil of wire in the end) senses a "very low" battery so it tells the alternator to put out a "very high" current, whose initial burst could ("they say") fry the rectifying wheatstone diodes. Maybe it makes sense to the electronics folks who are asked to comment. > that your car stereo's anti-theft system kicks in, and you'll have to go > back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft > system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard. But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years? |
| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 03:28PM >> I always did positive first. I will switch! > Think it out first - then decide. I'm thinking... I'm thinking... I'm trying to think this thing out. I don't think it matters all that much which cable goes first or last. As far as I can think about it, the last connection is the one that sparks. And that means the first disconnection is the one that sparks. Since you don't want that spark to be near any concentration of flammable hydrogen gas, I guess the theory that I'll concoct is you want the negative cable to be as far from that hydrogen gas as possible. That makes it the negative cable to be the last to connect. And the first to disconnect. Now, if the theory is to proceed accordingly, we have to decide which battery has the most chance of having excess hydrogen gas. The answer likely is neither will have any, but if we have to choose, which battery will have more hydrogen outgassing? (A) The donor battery (which is likely already topped off) or (B) The recipient battery (which is likely taking the greater charge) The answer seems, to me, to be neither battery will have excess hydrogen gas, but if I was forced to choose, I guess the battery being charged the most has the most excess hydrogen gas, which would clearly be the donor. All this is just "thinking it out" so tell me if I'm wrong so I learn from your expertise (the royal your that is, as everyone has something to say). |
| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 03:37PM > gallon (4L) of distilled water from a supermarket for about $1, but I > have to go to an auto-parts store to get deionized water for about $6. > https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/turbo-power-deionized-water-3-78-l-0293003p.html Didn't the conversation recently happen that rain water (now that "acid rain" is no longer a thing, thanks to the EPA), is just as good as distilled water nowadays? Sure, it's slightly acidic at pH 5.6 (if it's not acid rain, that is, as acid rain is pH 5.5 or lower by EPA definition someone found out), but a bit of weak carbonic acid (from the dissolved carbon dioxide) won't hurt the strong sulfuric acid in a lead:acid battery, will it? I'm guessing that rain water nowadays, unless you live within a few miles of a volcano (and you don't) or a coal-fired power plant (and you don't), is pretty damn close to distilled water in most parts of the country. Sure rain water will have a bit of "something here" and "something there" based on the dissolved gases in the atmosphere, but so will any bottle of distilled water that has ever been open to the exact same atmosphere. Someone said there are "particles" in the rain water, but I don't believe that as you can't see any when you collect it outside and even if there were, a coffee filter would filter them out just fine (and who says store bought distilled water doesn't have particles?). Sure, both might have particles, but I can't imagine they could matter given how few there would be if you can't even see them with your eyes. But I don't know. I'm just trying to reason this stuff out like the rest of you. If there's someone who actually knows what he's talking about (not me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this line of reasoning. |
| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 03:50PM > The best way to get deionized water is to start the deionization process > with distilled water because there will be a lot less impurities to > remove, and distilled water is cheap and easy to get. It's a car battery. It's not a silicon based integrated circuit. Water is water. To a certain degree it's all the same thing. I don't know the answer for sure, but I would reason out that almost all tap water will be just fine in a car battery although I don't doubt chlorine (or chloramines?) that they put in them might affect the lead:acid chemistry. They add fluorine too I think, and there might be a decent amount of calcium carbonates and metallic ions such as copper and phosphorous. I'm guessing that the minute amount of such things (having owned a pool, I'm aware they're in the PPM range, and PPB for phosphorous) in a car battery designed to last five years, won't make one bit of difference. An example of tap water total alkalinity is around 50 to 200 PPM and the calcium hardness due to calcium salts would range a bit higher, maybe double (depending, of course, on the amount of old shallow seas in your area fifty to two hundred million years ago). But distilled water is cheap and rain water is even cheaper, and, in fact, so is tap water - so since they're all dirt cheap, may as well use the rain water. That's how I see it from a reasoned approach, where I'm very familiar with the scare tactics pool stores try to pull on people when they find something, anything, to say "oh that's going to damage your equipment." Same technique those Indian "Microsoft support tech" try to pull on you when _they_ call you and tell you to look in the Event Viewer and all those errors indicate your computer needs their expert help with ransomware addition. Overall, does ANYONE have ANY real data that tap water actually degrades a car batter enough for someone to actually measure the results in 5 years? |
| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 03:53PM > "Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure > water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Has anyone wondered whether the "pure" water will be "leaching" out the chemistry of the lead:acid plates inside the battery? Having owned a pool, all water chemistry tends toward equilibrium, and dissolved salts (metal and a non metal) are no exception to the rule. So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets. Has anyone thought of that? |
| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 04:09PM > You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid > battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in > the battery fluid. I say from the start that I'm only "reasoning" this out, purely theoretically, so while I'm sure adding tap water with high calcium carbonates will add "some" impurities. Your use of "too much" is what bothers me, only because I've never seen a single reliable source that tested this for the five year life of a battery. I'm sure someone tested it - but I've never seen those tests, where my assumption, without those tests, is sure, "something" will be added, but will it make any difference in a twenty-five pound battery designed to last only five years? > You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as > deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water. Again I'm only reasoning this out, and I would back off on my rationale the instant someone shows me batteries being harmed by rain water, which is distilled water nowadays, despite the "acid rain" scare tactics of some. The Indian "Microsoft support techs" tried to pull the same scare tactics on me that the pool stores do, where they take a single tiny event and turn it into the explosion of the Maine in Havana's harbor. > A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to > dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid. A commercial outfit will always follow industry standards if they're reputable (most are not, in my humble opinion - most are scammers). That's why you never believe anything coming out of the mouth of someone selling you a service without checking it (for example, they'll tell you that you "need" a fluid change when the owners manual will disagree). They're all scheisters in my book - and I've been sheisted by them so I know this for a fact that some are sheisters who can't be trusted. Back to this topic, how do you know that the "pure" water isn't leaching out all the good paste on the plates, now that it's devoid of ions? I'm not asking this as a challenge - as the basic logic is sound. What I'm looking for is a real answer to the practical question of how much could it possibly matter in a twenty-five pound battery designed for a short life in what turns out to be miserably inhospitable temperature & vibration conditions, not to mention discharge recharge redox cycles. |
| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 04:09PM > You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid > battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in > the battery fluid. I say from the start that I'm only "reasoning" this out, purely theoretically, so while I'm sure adding tap water with high calcium carbonates will add "some" impurities. Your use of "too much" is what bothers me, only because I've never seen a single reliable source that tested this for the five year life of a battery. I'm sure someone tested it - but I've never seen those tests, where my assumption, without those tests, is sure, "something" will be added, but will it make any difference in a twenty-five pound battery designed to last only five years? > You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as > deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water. Again I'm only reasoning this out, and I would back off on my rationale the instant someone shows me batteries being harmed by rain water, which is distilled water nowadays, despite the "acid rain" scare tactics of some. The Indian "Microsoft support techs" tried to pull the same scare tactics on me that the pool stores do, where they take a single tiny event and turn it into the explosion of the Maine in Havana's harbor. > A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to > dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid. A commercial outfit will always follow industry standards if they're reputable (most are not, in my humble opinion - most are scammers). That's why you never believe anything coming out of the mouth of someone selling you a service without checking it (for example, they'll tell you that you "need" a fluid change when the owners manual will disagree). They're all scheisters in my book - and I've been sheisted by them so I know this for a fact that some are sheisters who can't be trusted. Back to this topic, how do you know that the "pure" water isn't leaching out all the good paste on the plates, now that it's devoid of ions? I'm not asking this as a challenge - as the basic logic is sound. What I'm looking for is a real answer to the practical question of how much could it possibly matter in a twenty-five pound battery designed for a short life in what turns out to be miserably inhospitable temperature & vibration conditions, not to mention discharge recharge redox cycles. |
| Peter <occassionally-confused@nospam.co.uk>: Jan 18 04:21PM > engine or frame of the car. Now you have both cables touching the frame > while at the other end, at the car you are using to jump your own, they > are connected to a good battery. Big spark. Well. That makes sense. So maybe my initial reasoning was wrong that the last cable attach will spark, and you want that spark away from the battery, so that would have to be the negative cable. However, you also said that the DISCHARGED battery is the one with all the hydrogen, so that means that you want to put the donor battery cable on last (because that's where the spark will be and the donor battery is presumed to have less hydrogen outgassing). But then you made a good point that if you put the positive on first, then anything any negative touches by accident, will spark where it touched. So now we have one good reason to put the negative on last and specifically the negative on the DONOR car on last by one line of reasoning, and by another line of reasoning, we have the positive going on last, presumably also on the donor car because it's going to spark. Which is the correct line of reasoning? (A) Put the negative on the donor car last because that spark is least likely to ignite hydrogen gases from the discharged battery or (B) Put the positive on the donor car last because you have less chance of accidentally shorting the circuit & the donor has less outgassing Which is more logical? |
| rbowman <bowman@montana.com>: Jan 18 02:40PM On Wed, 18 Jan 2023 07:09:56 -0500, Mighty✅ Wannabe✅ wrote: > https://bescocommercial.com/di-water/deionized-vs-distilled/ I'll see your URL and raise you two: https://www.uswatersystems.com/deionized-water-vs-distilled-water "Deionized water and Distilled water are both types of extremely pure water, but they are produced in two distinctly different ways. Depending on the source water, distilled water can be more pure than deionized water – but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better. There are pros and cons to using deionized water vs. distilled water for particular processes, particularly when it comes to cost and efficiency." https://americanhomewater.com/what-is-deionized-water-and-what-is-it-used- for/ "The main difference between these two types of water comes in the form of purity. Deionized water is the purest form of water available and, in some cases, can be considered a type of synthetic water. However, distilled water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer contaminants than deionized water." It's a toss. |
| "Mighty✅ Wannabe✅" <@.>: Jan 18 10:27AM -0500 rbowman wrote on 1/18/2023 9:40 AM: > water does not contain any impurities and therefore has fewer contaminants > than deionized water." > It's a toss. "However, distilled water does not contain any impurities" is definitely a misconception. The writer of that article is definitely babbling nonsense without any real knowledge. I am a self-made expert in distillation. I own two expensive fractional distillation columns, and I currently own about 5 counter-top water distillers. If you know how to use the digital counter-top water distiller in an inventive way, you can do fractional distillation professionally in your kitchen. Fractional distillation column: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractionating_column When water boils, it is not just pure H2O that is coming out in the steam. All other minor solutes in the water with boiling point lower than water will also come out in the steam. Besides that, some of the light weight microscopic impurities in the water will also "ride" the steam and come out of the boiling water. You can do very accurate fractional distillation using a digital counter-top water distiller from Amazon. You can set the boiling temperature digitally, and theoretically you can separately a mixture of many solutes with differently boiling points by distilling at different temperatures. My own expertise is electrical engineering but I am, in a way, a crazy scientist. There are a few varieties of digital counter-top water distillers from Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=digital+countertop+water+distiller Most of them are 750W power. That will be too much power if you try to distill a volatile liquid because the built-in fan and condenser coil at the top of the distiller cannot condense the volatile vapour fast enough (so some of them will escape to the air). You can effectively cut the power in half by opening the bottom and solder a single rectifier diode to the wire leading to the heating coil. You can further adjust the power by connecting to unit to a variable auto-transformer which can lower the power supply voltage to reduce power. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=variable+auto+transformer I'll refuse any responsibility if you cause physical injury or property damage by trying the fun things I have just described above. |
| "Mighty✅ Wannabe✅" <@.>: Jan 18 10:41AM -0500 Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:16 AM: >> back to the car dealership to enter the anti-theft code. The anti-theft >> system detects the zero voltage when it is ripped from the dashboard. > But what happens each time you replace the battery every few years? I can think of a simple way. Connect jump cable clamps to the car battery terminals and then carefully loosen and lift the terminals from the old battery. Another way is to connect a 12V cigarette lighter plug into the cigarette lighter socket to temporarily maintain a 12V to the whole system from another 12V power source before you disconnect your old battery. You may have to power on the accessories in your car if you car is designed to cut off the power to the cigarette lighter socket when the ignition is off. |
| "Peter W." <peterwieck33@gmail.com>: Jan 18 07:46AM -0800 Following up on Wannabe.... I am indirectly responsible for the care-and-feeding of a lab-grade RO/DI water system serving a 600,000 research facility and vivarium. It occupies over 300 square feet of footprint, runs 24/7 and will produce hundreds of gallons per hour, if needed. Points: Lab Grade RO/DI water is very nearly mineral and salt-free, free of dissolved gasses, metals and other trace elements or contaminants, and very nearly unreactive. Meaning that it is nearly impossible to hydrolyze (break down into H2 & O2 by running a current through it). There are five separate steps in making the stuff, from City Water to Product, including pre-and-post filtration, softening, and going through the De-Ionization and Osmosis processes. This is NOT distilled water, and it is created by a far more complex process than simply boiling water. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| "Mighty✅ Wannabe✅" <@.>: Jan 18 10:50AM -0500 Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:37 AM: > you. If there's someone who actually knows what he's talking about (not > me), then that person should set me straight before I go on with this line > of reasoning. You can make do with rain water or tap water to top up the lead-acid battery but doing it too often will accumulate too much impurities in the battery fluid. You can make do with distilled water but that is not as good as deionized water, which technically should be processed from distilled water. A responsible auto shop or car dealership should use deionized water to dilute the sulfuric acid to use as battery fluid. |
| "Mighty✅ Wannabe✅" <@.>: Jan 18 11:18AM -0500 Peter wrote on 1/18/2023 10:53 AM: > So the more pure the water, the more it will dissolve a bit of that > lead:acid compound that they slather on the plates between rubber sheets. > Has anyone thought of that? Have you thought of using corncob instead of toilet paper? Corncob is cheap, natural and reusable. LOL!!! Although deionized water is 6 times more expensive than distilled water, but one gallon goes a long way. Use deionized water if you want the best for your lead-acid battery. |
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