sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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TOPIC: Soundcraft Spirit Folio F1 mixer ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/c171dc39766fe377?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 1:56 am
From: "Arfa Daily"

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:i1rkb8$lvv$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:cb70o.86694$hS4.86180@newsfe26.ams2...
>>
>>
>> "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
>> news:i1pgm8$ejm$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> > Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> > news:btG%n.15942$mv6.13554@newsfe25.ams2...
>> >> Anyone by any chance got any schematics for this ? I've tried all the
>> > usual
>> >> freebie sources, but without luck. Couple of places are offering them
> for
>> >> sale, but owners don't want to spend a lot on the repair, so I'm
>> >> reluctant
>> >> to go down that route.
>> >>
>> >> Problem is fairly straightforward, and is around the final mixdown /
>> > master
>> >> area, so that's the bit that I need a schematic for. Buried down
> between
>> > the
>> >> master sliders, are two s.m. dual opamps. Outputs are equal at the two
>> >> halves of one of them, but one side is low at the other. Around these
>> >> two
>> >> opamps, the area is littered with gnat's-bollock-sized s.m. resistors,
>> >> and
>> >> I'm pretty sure that one of these is o/c or high (it's not the opamp
>> >> itself - I changed it just in case) but because of the awkwardness of
> the
>> >> location and the size of the R's, it's a might difficult to see what's
>> >> connected to where, or to 'buzz' them to the IC pins. It's one of
>> >> those
>> > jobs
>> >> that 'feels' as if it would resolve in a few minutes, with the benefit
> of
>> > a
>> >> schematic of the area :-)
>> >>
>> >> Ta all !
>> >>
>> >> Arfa
>> >>
>> >
>> > How are the back retainers to the nearby sliders ? Could someone have
> lent
>> > on the top and pushed in the sliders and produced a crack in that area.
>> > finger prodding results?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> No pcb / print damage that I can see. Operation of mixer in general,
>> quite
>> stable. Adjacent master faders look original and free of any stress or
>> damage. Voltages between halves of dual opamp pretty similar. Gain of the
>> 'low' side can be brought up to match the other side, with a wet finger
>> around the pins ...
>>
>> Arfa
>>
>
>
> I have a nice old optics part (the rack and pinnion section got worn out)
> of
> a Watson Barnet x50 stereo surface viewing microscope for this sort of
> work,
> reading SM labelling. The lenses are about 30mm from the object so clears
> the slider housings and some high power white LEDs for slant or normal
> illumination to get in under.
>
>

I have a high power stereo microscope, complete with its base and mechanics,
and area illumination, which I use for similar things to yourself. I also
have a high intensity white LED set in the end of an old biro pen tube. Very
handy for close-in high intensity illumination, or getting some light into
awkward places. I might dig it out and have a look, but I'm pretty sure that
this is a genuine electronic fault, rather than a pcb damage thing. Either
way, it would be a lot easier to track down with the benefit of a schematic
for the area.

Arfa

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: 60/40 vs. 63/37 Solder
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/4620260930cd06a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 5:48 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> When the joint moves while in the plastic stage it is still electrically
> connected -- when the joint moves with a eutectic mixture it cracks
> -- the joint is very weak when still close to the liquid stage. With the
> non-eutectic mixture the crystals of tin provide strength while the
> solid is cooling.

I'm not an expert on the physics of materials, but this flies in the face of
what I think I understand.

How can a eutectic mixture ever be "close to" the liquid stage? To
paraphrase Yoda -- "It either is, or is not."

> I might not have explained it very well, but I assure you, with total
> honesty, that the reason 60/40 was popular was the better reliability
> for point to point soldering and the reason 63/37 is now taking its
> place is that point to point has all but disappeared and the eutectic
> mixture gives slightly lower thermal stress.

You might not consciously not be telling the truth, but that doesn't mean
what you say is correct.

> Either that, or you believe our antecedents were morons, who while
> they knew about the eutectic mixture, were too stupid to use it, or
> too clumsy to mix it, or they thought a few dollars extra per ton of
> solder was too much to pay for the good stuff.

The difference in price is not just "a few dollars extra per ton". A
significantly higher price is almost certainly the explanation.

When I was a kid and assembled kits, the instructions always warned that the
connection /had/ to be mechanically strong before it was soldered. (I
remember the Knight-Kit photographs very well.) This isn't true in
practice -- as I commented in a recent posting, J Gordon Holt fought against
it -- but it virtually guaranteed that the wires wouldn't move during the
soldering process. If the solderer heated the joint sufficiently, a cold
joint was essentially impossible, eutectic solder or not.

This didn't keep customers from making bad joints, or altogether missing
joints to be soldered. These, I believe, were the principal causes of
non-working kits. Eutectic solder would have helped only a little (ie,
there's a limit to how much you can prevent human error).

About a year ago I had to replace a high-current driver in an electronic
crossover. The device was a five-pin TO-style product. Removing the PC board
to unsolder it would have required removing all the input and output jacks.
(Yes!) So I had to clip the device's pins near the body, unsolder and pull
out the pin stubs, then suck out any remaining solder. I was grateful I had
eutectic solder, because it made it easy to re-fill the holes and suck them
clean, then solder in the new chip with virtual certainty the connection
would be good. (It was.)

Confession time... One basic rule of soldering is "Get the joint hot enough
to melt the solder. Do not melt the solder directly with the iron." I've
been ignoring that for nearly half a century, and have never had a bad
joint.

According to the Kester Website...

"Sn60 has a plastic range and puts down a slightly thicker coating of
solder. Sn60 is often preferred for lead tinning and other solder coating
applications. Sn63 is eutectic and as such has no plastic range. Generally
it flows better than Sn60 and is the preferred alloy for wave soldering and
surface mount applications."

This isn't a complete answer -- I assume the cheaper 60/40 makes sense when
coating, because no joint is involved. However, "flows better" seems to be a
desirable characteristic when soldering joints.

I'm willing to be proved wrong about anything. I'd like to see a document --
preferably from a solder manufacturer -- that explains why 60/40 is less
likely to produce a cracked joint than 63/37.

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 6:00 am
From: Jasen Betts

On 2010-07-16, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 13:06:03 -0700, dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)
> wrote:
>
>>

><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder>
> This got my attention:
> Some alloys, namely of lead and to some degree tin, contain small
> but significant amounts of radioisotope impurities. The
> radioisotopes undergoing alpha decay are a concern due to their
> tendency to cause soft errors. Polonium-210 is especially
> problematic; lead-210 beta decays to bismuth-210 which then beta
> decays to polonium-210, an intense emitter of alpha particles.
> Uranium-238 and thorium-232 are other significant contaminants of
> lead containing alloys.
> Oh swell.... something else to worry about.

sounds like bullshit, alpha particles aren't energetic enough to get
even 1/10 of the way through the encapsulation on a RAM chip.

fraction of the

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 6:28 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder>
>> This got my attention:
>> Some alloys, namely of lead and to some degree tin, contain small
>> but significant amounts of radioisotope impurities. The
>> radioisotopes undergoing alpha decay are a concern due to their
>> tendency to cause soft errors. Polonium-210 is especially
>> problematic; lead-210 beta decays to bismuth-210 which then beta
>> decays to polonium-210, an intense emitter of alpha particles.
>> Uranium-238 and thorium-232 are other significant contaminants of
>> lead containing alloys.
>> Oh swell.... something else to worry about.

> sounds like bullshit, alpha particles aren't energetic enough to get
> even 1/10 of the way through the encapsulation on a RAM chip.

Correct. The original writer was probably confused by the fact that the
materials ceramic ICs are made of can contain radioactive materials that can
cause errors.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 8:04 am
From: "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:28:08 -0700, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solder>
>>> This got my attention:
>>> Some alloys, namely of lead and to some degree tin, contain small
>>> but significant amounts of radioisotope impurities. The
>>> radioisotopes undergoing alpha decay are a concern due to their
>>> tendency to cause soft errors. Polonium-210 is especially
>>> problematic; lead-210 beta decays to bismuth-210 which then beta
>>> decays to polonium-210, an intense emitter of alpha particles.
>>> Uranium-238 and thorium-232 are other significant contaminants of
>>> lead containing alloys.
>>> Oh swell.... something else to worry about.
>
>> sounds like bullshit, alpha particles aren't energetic enough to get
>> even 1/10 of the way through the encapsulation on a RAM chip.
>
>Correct. The original writer was probably confused by the fact that the
>materials ceramic ICs are made of can contain radioactive materials that can
>cause errors.

Happened in plastic too. Intel once helped the problem along by using Kr
instead of Ar, IIRC, in a hermaticity test.

Battleship steel has a lot of uses, too, since it was forged before the first
atmospheric tests.

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 10:15 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <i1ovm1$ccb$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

> >>>> The only reason 60/40 was ever manufactured in the first place is
> >>>> that tin is more expensive than lead, so 63/37 solder costs more.
>
> >>> Cite, please? (and I don't mean a link to commodity prices)
>
> >> I can only cite "common sense". 63/37 has always been
> >> more-expensive than 60/40.
>
> > Then you can't substantiate your contention that 60/40 was THE
> > worldwide standard for tens of years just because it was a few pennies
> > cheaper per pound? That is the statement of yours with which I take issue.
>
> I have no objection to your objection.
>
> However, 60/40 was never, ever, "a few pennies per pound" cheaper than
> 63/37. For the last 30 years, the price of eutectic solder has been
> sufficiently higher to make one think twice before buying it. The last time
> I purchased solder, I decided that a one-pound roll of Kester 44 would last
> the rest of my life, and I splurged. (At this point in my life, my
> prediction is coming true. I rarely solder any more. If I drop dead, someone
> digging through the junk will find a pleasant surprise. Assuming they know
> what 63/37 is.)
>
> I just checked Parts Express, and a 1# roll of Kester 44 60/40 is $22.23.
> 63/37 is $26.85. That's a $4.62 difference, almost 21% more -- hardly
> "pennies per pound". When I bought the same product some years back, my
> memory is that the price was around $7.50 for the 60/40, $9 for the 63/37.
> Even that wasn't "pennies per pound".

>
> Businesses almost always try to cut every corner they can. If you think your
> solderers -- or soldering machines -- are doing a good job, you might prefer
> to buy the less-expensive 60/40.
>

William, Parts Express sells to hobbyists. Their prices are meaningless
as a reference. I buy solder, as I have for 25 years, from industrial
suppliers. Since you didn't state either the diameter or the core, (and
diameter can make a huge difference in price) I looked up your
comparison rolls on Parts Express. I see you referred to Kester 44 with
a 66 core and at .031 diameter.

To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for current
pricing: 63/37, $13.80/lb. 60/40, $13.30/lb. I also asked how many
people were buying 60/40, and she confirmed that well over 90% of
customers use 63/37.

1. You're paying nosebleed prices whichever formula you buy.
2. The cost difference is indeed pennies when purchased from real supply
houses
3. Regardless of the cost difference, 63/37 *is* the standard now, as it
has been for 20 years.
4. Based on #3 above, your assertion that companies will cut corners
anyway they can is false.
5. Therefore, my contention that the widespread switch was made due to
improved performance of 63/37 seems to be the only logical conclusion.

Now, you said that 63/37 eutectic nature was known 50 years ago. That
may or may not be true, but what is true is that the widespread
industrial changeover happened much more recently, about 20 years ago.

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 10:19 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <m6qdnefeGvCgktzRnZ2dnUVZ_sSdnZ2d@giganews.com>,
David Eather <eather@tpg.com.au> wrote:

>
> When the joint moves while in the plastic stage it is still electrically
> connected - when the joint moves with a eutectic mixture it cracks - the
> joint is very weak when still close to the liquid stage.

Here I'm going to agree with William and others that you're mistaken.
Eutectic means that the transition from liquid to solid occurs at the
same temperature as the transition from solid to liquid. By definition,
the joint *cannot* move with a eutectic mixture, except when the solder
is liquid. It's the plastic state of non-eutectic stuff that has the
potential to cause problems.

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 10:51 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for
> current pricing: 63/37, $13.80/lb. 60/40, $13.30/lb. I also asked
> how many people were buying 60/40, and she confirmed that
> well over 90% of customers use 63/37.

Fascinating. It raises the question of why there is such a huge difference
in the pricing of Kester's solders.

> Now, you said that 63/37 eutectic nature was known 50 years ago.
> That may or may not be true, but what is true is that the widespread
> industrial changeover happened much more recently, about 20 years
> ago.

Hey, I read it in Popular Electronics in the '60s. It was probably known
back in the '30s.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 11:16 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <i1sqk0$6bn$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

> > To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for
> > current pricing: 63/37, $13.80/lb. 60/40, $13.30/lb. I also asked
> > how many people were buying 60/40, and she confirmed that
> > well over 90% of customers use 63/37.
>
> Fascinating. It raises the question of why there is such a huge difference
> in the pricing of Kester's solders.
>

If you're referring to widely different prices from different suppliers,
it's the same with any product or service, of course. When the 99%
isopropyl topic come up, I plugged it into google's "shopping" tab.
Prices ranged from 2.79 to 14.50 for a pint of the stuff.

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 12:06 pm
From: "William Sommerwerck"

>>> To compare apples to apples, I called my supplier yesterday for
>>> current pricing: 63/37, $13.80/lb. 60/40, $13.30/lb. I also asked
>>> how many people were buying 60/40, and she confirmed that
>>> well over 90% of customers use 63/37.

>> Fascinating. It raises the question of why there is such a huge
>> difference in the pricing of Kester's solders.

> If you're referring to widely different prices from different suppliers,
> it's the same with any product or service, of course. When the 99%
> isopropyl topic come up, I plugged it into google's "shopping" tab.
> Prices ranged from 2.79 to 14.50 for a pint of the stuff.

That isn't what I meant. There's a 20% difference in the price between
Kester's 60/40 and 63/37 solders.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Follow-up repair ViewSonic N3252w-1M / Bad FSP212-3F01 PSU,,
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/fd551b24b60da459?hl=en
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== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 5:51 am
From: "ctops.legal"

On Jul 16, 10:13 pm, Dani <gree...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The number 4 is the channel on cable input, the heart makes no sense,
> unless the TV is in some sort of "factory mode". When you apply power
> to the set, measure the standby voltages, & see if you have 5 vdc 12
> vdc 24 vdc. Also, look for swollen electrolytic capacitors, on the
> main board. The bad SMPS could have damaged the caps there. Make sure
> ZD4, Q11, !C8, Q7, & IC2, & the 180 uf 450 vdc main filter are ok. Are
> you sure the board is new? These low end brand TV's have a very short
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> Hope this helps.

Yea the main board looks fine, there are some capacitors on top that
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take a look.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: High Voltage Rectifier
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b910aed914c6b526?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 6:39 am
From: "Ed M"

Might anyone have the specs on this rectifier? No manufacturer is given,
part number is: H67C100H20LTS.

Thank you.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 8:41 am
From: Meat Plow

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:39:50 -0400, Ed M wrote:

> Might anyone have the specs on this rectifier? No manufacturer is
> given, part number is: H67C100H20LTS.
>
> Thank you.

Might help to know what the hell it's out of?

--
Altopia.com $12/m 10 unlimited connections

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 11:20 am
From: "Ed M"

Gates (Harris) FM-3H transmitter

"Meat Plow" <mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2010.07.17.15.41.51@hahahahahahahah.nutz...
> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:39:50 -0400, Ed M wrote:
>
>> Might anyone have the specs on this rectifier? No manufacturer is
>> given, part number is: H67C100H20LTS.
>>
>> Thank you.
>
> Might help to know what the hell it's out of?
>
>
>
> --
> Altopia.com $12/m 10 unlimited connections

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 11:34 am
From: David Nebenzahl

On 7/17/2010 8:41 AM Meat Plow spake thus:

> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:39:50 -0400, Ed M wrote:
>
>> Might anyone have the specs on this rectifier? No manufacturer is
>> given, part number is: H67C100H20LTS.
>>
>> Thank you.
>
> Might help to know what the hell it's out of?

Betcha Franc Z. coulda helped the OP without asking that question.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 11:37 am
From: Meat Plow

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 14:20:49 -0400, Ed M wrote:

> Gates (Harris) FM-3H transmitter

http://louise.hallikainen.org/BroadcastHistory/index.php/GatesRadioCompany

--
Altopia.com $12/m 10 unlimited connections

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 11:41 am
From: Meat Plow

On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 11:34:23 -0700, David Nebenzahl wrote:

> On 7/17/2010 8:41 AM Meat Plow spake thus:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Jul 2010 09:39:50 -0400, Ed M wrote:
>>
>>> Might anyone have the specs on this rectifier? No manufacturer is
>>> given, part number is: H67C100H20LTS.
>>>
>>> Thank you.
>>
>> Might help to know what the hell it's out of?
>
> Betcha Franc Z. coulda helped the OP without asking that question.

What's your fucking point?

--
Altopia.com $12/m 10 unlimited connections

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Weird telephone problem
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/5b67728e19c05524?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 8:56 am
From: Jeffrey D Angus

David Nebenzahl wrote:
> I said that *some* of the phones (meaning the wiring inside the
> house) work and some of them don't, so obviously the problem
> is inside the house.

Bite the bullet. Buy a box of Cat-3 (or 5) wire and start over.
Every house I've ever worked on has a total cluster-f**k for the
telephone wiring.

Pick a location, (a closet or such) and call that "home".
Run a new cable from the telephone company POE, to there.
From there, run a new cable to each and every jack in the
house.

One Type-66 split block and a package of jumper clips will
make a nice "distribution" point in the closet.

Problem solved.

And if you decide to get campy and put in a cheap PBX, all
your work is already done for the most part.

Jeff

--
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of stupidity."
Frank Leahy, Head coach, Notre Dame 1941-1954

http://www.stay-connect.com

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Sat, Jul 17 2010 11:33 am
From: David Nebenzahl

On 7/17/2010 8:56 AM Jeffrey D Angus spake thus:

> David Nebenzahl wrote:
>
>> I said that *some* of the phones (meaning the wiring inside the
>> house) work and some of them don't, so obviously the problem
>> is inside the house.
>
> Bite the bullet. Buy a box of Cat-3 (or 5) wire and start over.
> Every house I've ever worked on has a total cluster-f**k for the
> telephone wiring.
>
> Pick a location, (a closet or such) and call that "home".
> Run a new cable from the telephone company POE, to there.
> From there, run a new cable to each and every jack in the
> house.
>
> One Type-66 split block and a package of jumper clips will
> make a nice "distribution" point in the closet.
>
> Problem solved.
>
> And if you decide to get campy and put in a cheap PBX, all
> your work is already done for the most part.

Well, good suggestions all.

But thanks but no thanks; I'll answer several replies here by saying
that even though I posted this query, I have no intention of actually
trying to fix it. Here's why.

Mainly 'cuz I'm not a telephone repair person. As I get older I try more
and more to recognize and respect my limitations. I'm not a master of
all trades. I *might* be able to fix this problem; after all, telephone
wiring is not exactly rocket science. But still, it has its on
specialized problems, and I have no test equipment to perform this kind
of diagnosis, apart from a VOM.

Plus it's a fairly large house, with lots of wiring inside walls and in
barely-accessible crawlspaces. Not my idea of fun at all, brushing aside
piles of old rat shit to trace a wire.

Plus, the existing wiring is a total fucking mess. Unbelievable how
those phone co. monkeys wire stuff. There's a literal rat's nest of
wiring under the house, not in any box, splices every which way, no
consistency in the use of color pairs, no labels, just a fucking
nightmare. So I'll leave it to someone else to sort out, thank you very
much.

Ackshooly, the homeowners are lucky, because the last time they called
the telco (AT&T), they got a guy who scurried about under the house,
found the problem (this was a DSL issue), fixed it, and DIDN'T CHARGE
THEM ANYTHING FOR IT! They think they can get this person to perform
another miracle for them.

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

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