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TOPIC: What is this strange encoder motor?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/c033e5f3d5b31265?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 2 2010 6:48 pm
From: Ignoramus18921

On 2010-08-03, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
> On 08/02/2010 04:50 PM, Ignoramus18921 wrote:
>> Lots of new pictures here.
>>
>> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/24-Troyke-Rotary-Table-U12PNC/
>>
>> This is a servo motor driven rotary table Troyke U12PNC.
>>
>> I thought that it was a simple servo motor with a tachometer and
>> encoder on the back. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I
>> opened it up, the tach was on the back alright, but no encoder.
>>
>> I took off a box hanging on the front of this contraption and I think
>> this is where the encoder is. There are two cylinders.
>>
>> One is called "Electro-craft moving coil tach generator". Part
>> 0100-00-022.
>>
>> The other is "Summit engineering, Boseman MT. Model 573-211-10, 2500
>> Hz, rotor 1 phase, stator 2 ph, spec code H.S.C.T., 11BRW-300-70/10."
>>
>> Does anyone have AN idea just what are they and whether I can use it
>> as a quadrature encoder.
>>
>> On the rear of the motor, there is not enoug free hanging shaft to
>> mount a modern encoder.
>>
>> My uneducated guess is that it is a "resolver".
>
> My educated guess is that it is a resolver. The frequency is right, the
> labels on the rotor and stator are right.
>
> Do you have a signal generator and an O-scope? Feed it with 2500Hz to
> the rotor, and see if you get 2500Hz out the two stator windings, with a
> coupling that depends on the shaft position.
>
> There may be industrial resolver to encoder converters out there -- it
> would be something that a machine designer or retrofitter might need.
>

There are some converters out there, Jon has one for sale too.

Tim, how much angular accuracy could I get from this resolver, in
pulses per revolution?

If this is too complicated, I may just look for the right sized modern
servo motor on ebay.

i

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 2 2010 6:48 pm
From: Ignoramus18921

>
>On 2010-08-03, Ignoramus18921 <ignoramus18921@NOSPAM.18921.invalid> wrote:
> On 2010-08-03, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
>> On 08/02/2010 04:50 PM, Ignoramus18921 wrote:
>>> Lots of new pictures here.
>>>
>>> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/24-Troyke-Rotary-Table-U12PNC/
>>>
>>> This is a servo motor driven rotary table Troyke U12PNC.
>>>
>>> I thought that it was a simple servo motor with a tachometer and
>>> encoder on the back. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I
>>> opened it up, the tach was on the back alright, but no encoder.
>>>
>>> I took off a box hanging on the front of this contraption and I think
>>> this is where the encoder is. There are two cylinders.
>>>
>>> One is called "Electro-craft moving coil tach generator". Part
>>> 0100-00-022.
>>>
>>> The other is "Summit engineering, Boseman MT. Model 573-211-10, 2500
>>> Hz, rotor 1 phase, stator 2 ph, spec code H.S.C.T., 11BRW-300-70/10."
>>>
>>> Does anyone have AN idea just what are they and whether I can use it
>>> as a quadrature encoder.
>>>
>>> On the rear of the motor, there is not enoug free hanging shaft to
>>> mount a modern encoder.
>>>
>>> My uneducated guess is that it is a "resolver".
>>
>> My educated guess is that it is a resolver. The frequency is right, the
>> labels on the rotor and stator are right.
>>
>> Do you have a signal generator and an O-scope? Feed it with 2500Hz to
>> the rotor, and see if you get 2500Hz out the two stator windings, with a
>> coupling that depends on the shaft position.
>>
>> There may be industrial resolver to encoder converters out there -- it
>> would be something that a machine designer or retrofitter might need.
>>
>
> There are some converters out there, Jon has one for sale too.
>
> Tim, how much angular accuracy could I get from this resolver, in
> pulses per revolution?
>
> If this is too complicated, I may just look for the right sized modern
> servo motor on ebay.

I forgot to add, or make a shaft adaptor if it is at all possible, and
mount an encoder.

i

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 2 2010 8:09 pm
From: Ignoramus18921

I had a second look at the motor.

http://tinyurl.com/2vagsc7

You can see the rear end (ODE) of the motor shaft. It is kind of
roughly machined, as if cut off with a hacksaw or something.

If a recolver converter is not practical here for any reason, I think
that simply mounting a US digital E5 encoder on the back may be the
best option of all.

I think that it is a simple machining exercise to flatten that side,
locate a center and precisely drill a hole in the shaft (precisely,
here, means under 0.005" error) along the axis of rotation. Then I
would tap it and use a shoulder bolt with the head cut off, to mount
the encoder wheel.

If it does not fit under the cover, I will make a bigger cover from
aluminum.

i

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 2 2010 8:24 pm
From: "Bill Noble"

"Ignoramus18921" <ignoramus18921@NOSPAM.18921.invalid> wrote in message
news:-6ednaefZKBHxMrRnZ2dnUVZ_hCdnZ2d@giganews.com...
> Lots of new pictures here.
>
> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/24-Troyke-Rotary-Table-U12PNC/
>
>
> Does anyone have AN idea just what are they and whether I can use it
> as a quadrature encoder.
>

yes. And No

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 2 2010 8:47 pm
From: Tim Wescott

On 08/02/2010 08:09 PM, Ignoramus18921 wrote:
> I had a second look at the motor.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2vagsc7
>
> You can see the rear end (ODE) of the motor shaft. It is kind of
> roughly machined, as if cut off with a hacksaw or something.
>
> If a recolver converter is not practical here for any reason, I think
> that simply mounting a US digital E5 encoder on the back may be the
> best option of all.
>
> I think that it is a simple machining exercise to flatten that side,
> locate a center and precisely drill a hole in the shaft (precisely,
> here, means under 0.005" error) along the axis of rotation. Then I
> would tap it and use a shoulder bolt with the head cut off, to mount
> the encoder wheel.
>
> If it does not fit under the cover, I will make a bigger cover from
> aluminum.

Threads don't make a good center reference, in my limited experience.

I would bore the hole for the threads, then counter-bore and ream to a
light press fit of some handy drill rod. Then I'd make a bushing out of
the handy drill rod and press it (lightly) into the hole. Then I'd say
"whoa, look! a stepped shaft!" and I'd bolt an encoder disk to it.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 2 2010 8:51 pm
From: Tim Wescott

On 08/02/2010 06:48 PM, Ignoramus18921 wrote:
> On 2010-08-03, Tim Wescott<tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
>> On 08/02/2010 04:50 PM, Ignoramus18921 wrote:
>>> Lots of new pictures here.
>>>
>>> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/24-Troyke-Rotary-Table-U12PNC/
>>>
>>> This is a servo motor driven rotary table Troyke U12PNC.
>>>
>>> I thought that it was a simple servo motor with a tachometer and
>>> encoder on the back. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I
>>> opened it up, the tach was on the back alright, but no encoder.
>>>
>>> I took off a box hanging on the front of this contraption and I think
>>> this is where the encoder is. There are two cylinders.
>>>
>>> One is called "Electro-craft moving coil tach generator". Part
>>> 0100-00-022.
>>>
>>> The other is "Summit engineering, Boseman MT. Model 573-211-10, 2500
>>> Hz, rotor 1 phase, stator 2 ph, spec code H.S.C.T., 11BRW-300-70/10."
>>>
>>> Does anyone have AN idea just what are they and whether I can use it
>>> as a quadrature encoder.
>>>
>>> On the rear of the motor, there is not enoug free hanging shaft to
>>> mount a modern encoder.
>>>
>>> My uneducated guess is that it is a "resolver".
>>
>> My educated guess is that it is a resolver. The frequency is right, the
>> labels on the rotor and stator are right.
>>
>> Do you have a signal generator and an O-scope? Feed it with 2500Hz to
>> the rotor, and see if you get 2500Hz out the two stator windings, with a
>> coupling that depends on the shaft position.
>>
>> There may be industrial resolver to encoder converters out there -- it
>> would be something that a machine designer or retrofitter might need.
>>
>
> There are some converters out there, Jon has one for sale too.
>
> Tim, how much angular accuracy could I get from this resolver, in
> pulses per revolution?

Um -- pretty damn good?

It's hard to say, because it varies with the resolver. But I'd expect
anywhere between one and ten minutes of an arc (no, you don't get
dimensions in degrees, or counts, when you're dealing with resolvers).
Resolvers that do better than that generally go to "multi-speed" units,
with a "high-speed" resolver that repeats itself 8, 16, or 32 times
around the circle, and a "low-speed" (1x) resolver to tell you what
quadrant of the high-speed resolver you're looking at.

> If this is too complicated, I may just look for the right sized modern
> servo motor on ebay.

Aw, what's the fun in that?

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" was written for you.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Aug 2 2010 10:01 pm
From: Ignoramus18921

On 2010-08-03, Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
> On 08/02/2010 06:48 PM, Ignoramus18921 wrote:
>> On 2010-08-03, Tim Wescott<tim@seemywebsite.com> wrote:
>>> On 08/02/2010 04:50 PM, Ignoramus18921 wrote:
>>>> Lots of new pictures here.
>>>>
>>>> http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Bridgeport-Series-II-Interact-2-CNC-Mill/24-Troyke-Rotary-Table-U12PNC/
>>>>
>>>> This is a servo motor driven rotary table Troyke U12PNC.
>>>>
>>>> I thought that it was a simple servo motor with a tachometer and
>>>> encoder on the back. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I
>>>> opened it up, the tach was on the back alright, but no encoder.
>>>>
>>>> I took off a box hanging on the front of this contraption and I think
>>>> this is where the encoder is. There are two cylinders.
>>>>
>>>> One is called "Electro-craft moving coil tach generator". Part
>>>> 0100-00-022.
>>>>
>>>> The other is "Summit engineering, Boseman MT. Model 573-211-10, 2500
>>>> Hz, rotor 1 phase, stator 2 ph, spec code H.S.C.T., 11BRW-300-70/10."
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone have AN idea just what are they and whether I can use it
>>>> as a quadrature encoder.
>>>>
>>>> On the rear of the motor, there is not enoug free hanging shaft to
>>>> mount a modern encoder.
>>>>
>>>> My uneducated guess is that it is a "resolver".
>>>
>>> My educated guess is that it is a resolver. The frequency is right, the
>>> labels on the rotor and stator are right.
>>>
>>> Do you have a signal generator and an O-scope? Feed it with 2500Hz to
>>> the rotor, and see if you get 2500Hz out the two stator windings, with a
>>> coupling that depends on the shaft position.
>>>
>>> There may be industrial resolver to encoder converters out there -- it
>>> would be something that a machine designer or retrofitter might need.
>>>
>>
>> There are some converters out there, Jon has one for sale too.
>>
>> Tim, how much angular accuracy could I get from this resolver, in
>> pulses per revolution?
>
> Um -- pretty damn good?
>
> It's hard to say, because it varies with the resolver. But I'd expect
> anywhere between one and ten minutes of an arc (no, you don't get
> dimensions in degrees, or counts, when you're dealing with resolvers).
> Resolvers that do better than that generally go to "multi-speed" units,
> with a "high-speed" resolver that repeats itself 8, 16, or 32 times
> around the circle, and a "low-speed" (1x) resolver to tell you what
> quadrant of the high-speed resolver you're looking at.

Say, ten minutes of arc, gives you 360*6 = 2160 units of resolution
per circle. Very good in my view. Certainly enough in a geared way
down rotary table.

>> If this is too complicated, I may just look for the right sized modern
>> servo motor on ebay.
>
> Aw, what's the fun in that?
>

I am having enough fun as it goes. I want some uncomplicated
solutions.

I have seen people having too much fun with unfinished machines
sitting for years. The second addiction is being too cheap. $30 servo
drives are not cheap enough for them, so they sit and wait until they
can find $5 servo drives or "make their own" from stuff they find in
dumpsters.

The first approach (too much fun) has some advantages, but
disadvantages are big enough, in my view, to not go there.

The second approach is uneconomical, if you are smart to make your own
servo drives it is better to buy one and make money doing something
more economically valuable.

i
milling out a bigger mold than yesterday and standing in front of EMC

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