sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair?hl=en

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: TVs compatible, from one continent to the next??
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/38d677af192b8653?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 1:09 am
From: "Brenda Ann"

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news:HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com...

> PAL never looked like crap, your NTSC has the monopoly.

Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs was
a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in lake
County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a steady
stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were commercial
tapes, not recorded OTA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having been to a PAL country (the Kingdom of Thailand), I can toss my -W-23
in.

During my visits there, I watched a good deal of TV, and the thing I noticed
most was that the lower framerate didn't play well with fluorescent
lighting. There always seemed to be an easily perceptible flicker to the
picture. Brand of set or signal source (OTA, CATV, Satellite, tape or VCD)
didn't seem to make any difference.

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 2:35 am
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"

In article <BKWdnaM807JGS7bQnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

> People who never worked in the industry have no clue. They generally
> used the cheapest imported TV they could find, then bitched about it.
> If they ever saw the video from a TK-46 with a set of new Plumbicons on
> a $7,000 studio monitor, they would shoot their digital TVs.

Well, yes. But take that same camera outdoors where you haven't got full
control over the lighting... Oh - and what were the pictures like at
switch on, before an hours worth of line-up?

Luckily, modern cameras are far more suited to use outside of a studio.

Other thing is control room monitors (Grade 1) are designed for close
viewing, so generally in the smaller sizes. Nor have I ever seen a
widescreen CRT with decent geometry and registration. Control room CRTs
even for widescreen were still 4:3, but underscanned, making the small
size even more of an issue.

--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 2:46 am
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"

In article <9n0oi6hlk9gi4acqlc3b7q880hgi55bc7j@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >The reason that everyone did not have a universal TV set was because
> >the price was kept lower with single system sets and countries like the
> >UK, which made a substansial income from the TV license did not want
> >you watching tv from France or the Republic of Ireland for free.

> I ran into something like that when I "visited" Israel in the early
> 1970's.

The UK isn't Israel.

--
*You sound reasonable......time to up my medication

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 2:43 am
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"

In article <HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs was
> a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in lake
> County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a steady
> stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were commercial
> tapes, not recorded OTA.

You judge a system off domestic tapes? I've also no idea of the technical
standards of such Greek produced stuff. Did you do the same with UK or
German?

The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the first
instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO tubes. Had a
modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not
have adopted (and been part of the design) of PAL.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 2:49 am
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"

In article <HbOdnajoAZT6g7HQnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Brenda Ann <newsgroups@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote:
> During my visits there, I watched a good deal of TV, and the thing I
> noticed most was that the lower framerate didn't play well with
> fluorescent lighting. There always seemed to be an easily perceptible
> flicker to the picture. Brand of set or signal source (OTA, CATV,
> Satellite, tape or VCD) didn't seem to make any difference.

If you have any form of strobe lighting - like fluorescent - you can get
such effects. Regardless of a frame rate of 25 or 30 Hz. But few in the US
would use fluorescent lighting in the same room as their TV.

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:50 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour.
> In the first instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things
> with 3" IO tubes. Had a modification of NTSC to say 625
> lines, 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not have adopted
> (and been part of the design) of PAL.

The BBC had little or no hand in "designing" PAL. The original NTSC proposal
/was/ PAL. Want proof?

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:52 am
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"

In article <ighg5a$dt5$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:
> > The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour.
> > In the first instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things
> > with 3" IO tubes. Had a modification of NTSC to say 625
> > lines, 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not have adopted
> > (and been part of the design) of PAL.

> The BBC had little or no hand in "designing" PAL. The original NTSC
> proposal /was/ PAL. Want proof?

So the PAL patent is owned by a US company?

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:43 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

>> The BBC had little or no hand in "designing" PAL.
>> The original NTSC proposal /was/ PAL. Want proof?

> So the PAL patent is owned by a US company?

You mean "was". And there would have been multiple patents.

The PAL system was publically described in an "Electronics" article circa
1951, which I have in the garage. It was given as the NTSC proposal. It used
phase alternation, and equal-bandwidth R-Yand B-Y primaries.

It was presumably patented, so I assume someone would have had to pay
royalties at least through the mid-60s.

I well-remember reading -- many years ago -- that European TV-distribution
systems suffered from significant non-linear phase errors (while American
systems did not), and this was the principal reason for adopting phase
alternation. I have no source, though.

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 6:14 am
From: "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
> In article <9n0oi6hlk9gi4acqlc3b7q880hgi55bc7j@4ax.com>,
> Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>> >The reason that everyone did not have a universal TV set was because
>> >the price was kept lower with single system sets and countries like the
>> >UK, which made a substansial income from the TV license did not want
>> >you watching tv from France or the Republic of Ireland for free.
>
>> I ran into something like that when I "visited" Israel in the early
>> 1970's.
>
> The UK isn't Israel.

Actually compared to the 1970s Israel is nothing like it was in the 1970s,
although it looks like the current UK government is trying to recreate
them.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 8:34 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <HbOdnajoAZT6g7HQnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> Brenda Ann <newsgroups@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote:
> > During my visits there, I watched a good deal of TV, and the thing I
> > noticed most was that the lower framerate didn't play well with
> > fluorescent lighting. There always seemed to be an easily perceptible
> > flicker to the picture. Brand of set or signal source (OTA, CATV,
> > Satellite, tape or VCD) didn't seem to make any difference.
>
> If you have any form of strobe lighting - like fluorescent - you can get
> such effects. Regardless of a frame rate of 25 or 30 Hz. But few in the US
> would use fluorescent lighting in the same room as their TV.

Really? Then all those fluorescent lamps were fakes? I statrted
using them over 40 years ago.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 8:36 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs was
> > a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in lake
> > County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a steady
> > stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were commercial
> > tapes, not recorded OTA.
>
> You judge a system off domestic tapes? I've also no idea of the technical
> standards of such Greek produced stuff. Did you do the same with UK or
> German?

The tapes were fropm all over Europe.

> The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the first
> instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO tubes. Had a
> modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not
> have adopted (and been part of the design) of PAL.

Image Orthicons? That figures.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 8:45 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
>
> In article <BKWdnaM807JGS7bQnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > People who never worked in the industry have no clue. They generally
> > used the cheapest imported TV they could find, then bitched about it.
> > If they ever saw the video from a TK-46 with a set of new Plumbicons on
> > a $7,000 studio monitor, they would shoot their digital TVs.
>
> Well, yes. But take that same camera outdoors where you haven't got full
> control over the lighting... Oh - and what were the pictures like at
> switch on, before an hours worth of line-up?

It took about six minutes to set up the camera for the ambient
lighting. The rest of the mechanical and electrical setup was very
stable, usually only requiring annual touchup, or a full setup when
installing new Plumbicons.

> Luckily, modern cameras are far more suited to use outside of a studio.

Sure, but they are designed to be used by total idiots. They don't
have the contrast ratio, or other positive characteristics of Plumbicon
cameras. What killed Plumbicons was their size of the camera, and the
$14,000+ price tag on a new set of matched tubes. Use a set of $50,000
lenses on a TK 46 and you'll know what I'm talking about.

> Other thing is control room monitors (Grade 1) are designed for close
> viewing, so generally in the smaller sizes. Nor have I ever seen a
> widescreen CRT with decent geometry and registration. Control room CRTs
> even for widescreen were still 4:3, but underscanned, making the small
> size even more of an issue.

Our control room used 25 to 30 inch monitors. Underscan was
switchable. A mask was used with lines to show the hot area for cheap,
overscanned TV sets. Tell us, how many US TV stations did you work at
as an engineer? How many state of the art NTSC studios have you built?
How many years of maintaining a commercial US TV station?

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: WATCH KATRINA KAIF NUDE VIDEOS
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a63e5ef2c89f22e3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 2:03 am
From: KATRINA SEXXXY

WATCH KATRINA KAIF NUDE VIDEOS

On - katrina.work8home.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Microwave timer/clock 4 digit 7-segmnt display is out. Timer works fine.

http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/f9d37ccd9c82199e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 3:57 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

>> The chamber is nice and big... I've been eating meals
>> prepared in it for over two years now. Soups and pastas,
>> coffee every day... It's my mechanical mama.

> I think you might find it useful to learn how to cook. Think
> of it as chemistry and not an art form. Microwave cooking
> is ok for many things, but there's plenty of dishes that are
> best cooked over a flame, on a grill, or in a real oven. Then
> there's barbecue.

A microwave oven doesn't actually "cook" anything -- it just heats it. That
works great with soup, pasta, bacon, and a few other things.

Have you seen Betty Crocker "Warm Delights"? It's actually a repurposing of
her awful microwave brownies (which were actually more trouble to make than
regular brownies).

==============================================================================
TOPIC: VAX AVC 1 Vacuum Cleaner
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/37d26fc8499ec5c8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 4:27 am
From: "N_Cook"

I nosed into that Dyson motor, just curious, while in there for just a
clutch problem. That has a plastic retaining ring around the fan end held by
4 wedge clips, 2 screwdriver job to part. Large rubber boot then pulls off
and motor is "floating" between that rubber and a rubber disc at the drive
axle end , pierced by 2 locating dogs to the casing. So no mechanical
vibration transmission from motor to outside casing

==============================================================================
TOPIC: xxx HOT AND SEXY ACTRESS PICS
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3a22ebd40c209c96?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:30 am
From: anjana

http://www.photovediodating.com
hot images & computer tips
http://www.celebsimzs.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: scope recommendations?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/945010a432810e85?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:35 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <4d2acac2.751936@News.Individual.NET>,
bok118@zonnet.nl (Gerard Bok) wrote:

> On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:55:13 -0800, Smitty Two
> <prestwhich@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >In article <igcvde$muj$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> > mike <spamme9@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Not clear how the strobe improves on the flash of light you get from the
> >> shutter in the projector???
> >
> >One problem with using off-the-shelf projectors, as he has been doing
> >for many years, is duty cycle.
>
> From what I read here, I would suggest your friend to put the
> frame scan setup aside for a while and investigate the use of a
> linescanner.

What's a linescanner?

> That will allow him to ditch the jumpy filmtransport altogether
> and scan the film right upto the maximum (continuous) speed his
> electronics can handle and convert.
> (That's the very same way some old microfilmscanners operated :-)

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:37 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <igef0a$4fc$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:

>
>
> Am I missing something here - why real time speed of 24 fps or whatever for
> 8mm.
> Slow it right down and software to convert to real time colour correction
> /scratch "removal" etc , audio synced in off realtime or speeded up
> separately .

I'm not understanding this. He definitely doesn't want to slow the film
down; he usually runs it at 2x. Your second sentence doesn't grok.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:38 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <djeei65go3b9sa9p3rb0mku609jfef5usi@4ax.com>,
Rich Webb <bbew.ar@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:

>
> PC-based USB-interfaced 'scopes tend not to have stellar sample rates.
> There's usually a note in the fine print that the advertised sample rate
> is "equivalent time sampling" which is okay for repetitive waveforms but
> not so much for single event captures -- and single events are one of
> the nice things you get with digital scopes.

Noted, thanks.

>
> GW Instek and Rigol each have reasonably-priced 100 MHz, 1 Gsps dual
> channel models that could be a starting point for comparison
> http://www.tequipment.net/InstekGDS-2102.html
> http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDS1102E.html

A tad spendy for his needs and budgets, but I appreciate the suggestions.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:39 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <Xns9E68B2E5858BAjyaniklocalnetcom@216.168.3.44>,
Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov> wrote:

> I'd go for a TEK low end LCD scope,for a new model. TDS2200?
>
> for a beginner on a tight budget,maybe a T922/T932/T935,those can be had
> very inexpensively,are simple to operate.

Thanks, I'll look into those. Seems like a good fit for him.

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:50 am
From: Jeffrey Angus

On 1/9/2011 4:33 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> for a beginner on a tight budget,maybe a T922/T932/T935,
> those can be had very inexpensively,are simple to operate.

Weren't those the ones made as a joint effort with Sony?
Sort of Tek's experiment with bottom feeding?

Not good enough for the lab and too expensive for the shop.

Jeff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ethical question.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0951ee48819ee2bb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:39 am
From: PeterD

On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:42:23 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

>>...
>>
>>You're admitting you are a troll?
>
>No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

>
>>Or that the entire thread was a
>>troll (which is likely)?
>
>No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

>
>>Claiming I'm a troll? <g>
>
>Yes.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

>
>>Or is it that if
>>someone posts something you don't agree with a troller?
>
>No.

Wrong on that point, troll boy.

Wow, totally wrong... Why am I not surprised?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 5:57 am
From: JW

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:39:46 -0500 PeterD <peter2@hipson.net> wrote in
Message id: <7bnoi69f6jmmtpd09ltrk6nrsn07q3m6cg@4ax.com>:

>On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:42:23 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:
>
>>>...
>>>
>>>You're admitting you are a troll?
>>
>>No.
>
>Wrong on that point, troll boy.
>
>>
>>>Or that the entire thread was a
>>>troll (which is likely)?
>>
>>No.
>
>Wrong on that point, troll boy.
>
>>
>>>Claiming I'm a troll? <g>
>>
>>Yes.
>
>Wrong on that point, troll boy.
>
>>
>>>Or is it that if
>>>someone posts something you don't agree with a troller?
>>
>>No.
>
>Wrong on that point, troll boy.
>
>Wow, totally wrong... Why am I not surprised?

Troll-O-Meter

0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

*----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+----+-----*
.^.
/ | \
|

Not very subtle. Try harder next time.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 6:13 am
From: TMI

Starting programs and looking at content is unavoidable in the course
of computer repair, unless you are going to guess at the effectiveness
of your repair and let the customer test it out. Generally, this
pisses customers off as a good percentage of time the computer isn't
fixed or will fail again for the same reason (virus embedded files
being accessed). From a basic customer service point of view, they
expect you to shake the unit out.

Conversely, the moment you uncover something embarrassing,
controversial or worse yet actionable, privacy becomes the main
objective.

While you should consult with a lawyer for details, I think a computer
repair shop should have a boilerplate statement on it's estimate and
repair orders indicating that files will be accessed in the process of
repair and while privacy is respected, the shop is not in league with
criminals, particularly, those who deal in Child Porn and reserves the
right to delete and/or report and such information found. A wall sign
to this effect might be a good idea as well.

Most customers are willing to do anything to get their data back so
this will have little effect on business, at least the business you
want.

This being said, for the sake of your protection, take note that it is
often difficult to distinguish between files downloaded by a virus
that are unknown to the user and those that get the user's jolly's off
without an investigation that is beyond the scope of your repair. Even
Unofficial Sesame Street sites have embedded porn. Imagine calling
down the wrath of God on someone whose child clicked the wrong Big
Bird!!! We all want to be the hero that saves a child. What happens
when you destroy a family by mistake instead????

Pete Townsend has done more over his career to shine a spotlight on
child abuse than any other pop star. He started long before looking at
the Willowbrook's of the world was a popular expose' topic. When
people just looked away because it was too painful to imagine. Yet, he
was paraded before the media when someone stuck their nose in out of
context. Care to guess how many children were hurt along with Mr.
Townsend's creditability?

At my level, discretion is expected and failure generally means a
lawsuit or worse. I avoid accessing unneeded content as you should. I
explain to customers that I will be removing content that is suspect
to the stable operation of their computers and try to preserve it on a
CD or DVD. I hand this over to the customer and explain the risk of
accessing such sites. Often, the computer owner is not the source of
the problem. I feel, since they are your customer, that you owe them a
chance to address the issue before sounding the Child Pornographer
alarm.

Just because we can....does not mean we should.

On Jan 10, 1:32 pm, The Peeler <peeling...@invalid.admin> wrote:
> On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:53:56 -0500, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> >On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:36:10 -0700, The Peeler
> ><peelingthe@invalid,admin> wrote:
>
> >>On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 09:50:24 -0500, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
>
> >>>On Sun, 09 Jan 2011 08:41:08 -0700, The Peeler
> >>><peeling...@invalid.admin> wrote:
>
> >>>>On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
> >>>><jan...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> >>>>>Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
> >>>>>...
>
> >>>>>So, what to do?
>
> >>>>>Jeff
>
> >>>>The customer may have bought the laptop used on eBay or elsewhere and
> >>>>may be totally unaware of its contents.
>
> >>>That has nothting to do with the problem and what to do.
>
> >>It certainly does. He may have great difficulty proving his
> >>innocence.
>
> >The original post wasn't based on the 'owner' proving innocence or
> >not, only the ethical issues, and to a certain extent the legal issues
> >WRT the repair shop.
>
> The owner is likely to have a shitload of legal issues which will make
> the legal issues of the repair shop seem trivial in comparison.
>
> > We can save that issue for a later thread perhaps
> >(Say titled "My Friend Bought a Notebook on eBay and it Has Porn On
> >It")
>
> Same problem if someone else sees it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ONLY FOR YOUTH
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8ebcdb9fb696b035?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Jan 11 2011 6:54 am
From: SRAVANTHI LOVE

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