sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 10 topics - digest

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nightmare Samsung PTV
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/53c2c1c21b44407f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 11:48 am
From: "Chris F."

This Samsung HCN4767W projection set is really making a nuisance of
itself. It had a blown convergence IC when I acquired it, so I replaced them
both. It ran for a few days in the shop (about 6-8 hours a day), then blew
one of the same IC's again. I replaced them again, and also replaced the
convergence processor board. Again, it seemed to work fine for a few days,
but now the bloody IC's have blown again. The supply voltage to the IC's is
a solid 25V (pos. and neg.), well within the 50V max. supply voltage the
IC's are rated for. Both IC's are properly heatsinked, though they seem to
run quite hot - I assumed this was just normal. I've also gone through the
convergence board and power supply looking for caps up in ESR, but found
none.
The replacement IC's were supposed to be OEM, but I have to wonder just
how compatible they really are. It's the only explanation I can think of.
I'm tired of wasting time and money on this piece of junk. Unless I can be
certain any further replacement parts will work, I'm going to scrap it and
take my losses, which would be close to $300 as of right now. I will also
vow to never gamble on a Samsung again - they're nothing but trouble.
Any advice would be appreciated

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 12:06 pm
From: "David"

>"Chris F." wrote in message
>news:4d276e28$0$5583$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...

>This Samsung HCN4767W projection set is really making a nuisance
>of itself. It had a blown convergence IC when I acquired it, so
>I replaced them both. It ran for a few days in the shop (about
>6-8 hours a day), then blew one of the same IC's again. I
>replaced them again, and also replaced the convergence processor
>board. Again, it seemed to work fine for a few days, but now the
>bloody IC's have blown again. The supply voltage to the IC's is
>a solid 25V (pos. and neg.), well within the 50V max. supply
>voltage the IC's are rated for. Both IC's are properly
>heatsinked, though they seem to run quite hot - I assumed this
>was just normal. I've also gone through the convergence board
>and power supply looking for caps up in ESR, but found none.
> The replacement IC's were supposed to be OEM, but I have to
> wonder just how compatible they really are. It's the only
> explanation I can think of.
> I'm tired of wasting time and money on this piece of junk.
> Unless I can be certain any further replacement parts will
> work, I'm going to scrap it and take my losses, which would be
> close to $300 as of right now. I will also vow to never gamble
> on a Samsung again - they're nothing but trouble.
> Any advice would be appreciated

Usually these problems are due to the static centering rings on
one or more of the CRTs being misadjusted and the convergence IC
has to put out a steady DC component to correct it. If you scope
the outputs from the convergence IC and see both positive and
negative current swings into the convergence magnets, everything
is OK. If not, you need to adjust the centering magnet(s) on the
appropriate tube(s) and then re-converge the set.

David

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 12:23 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:06:59 -0600, David wrote:

>>"Chris F." wrote in message
>>news:4d276e28$0$5583$9a566e8b@news.aliant.net...
>
>
>>This Samsung HCN4767W projection set is really making a nuisance of
>>itself. It had a blown convergence IC when I acquired it, so I replaced
>>them both. It ran for a few days in the shop (about 6-8 hours a day),
>>then blew one of the same IC's again. I replaced them again, and also
>>replaced the convergence processor board. Again, it seemed to work fine
>>for a few days, but now the bloody IC's have blown again. The supply
>>voltage to the IC's is a solid 25V (pos. and neg.), well within the 50V
>>max. supply voltage the IC's are rated for. Both IC's are properly
>>heatsinked, though they seem to run quite hot - I assumed this was just
>>normal. I've also gone through the convergence board and power supply
>>looking for caps up in ESR, but found none.
>> The replacement IC's were supposed to be OEM, but I have to wonder just
>> how compatible they really are. It's the only explanation I can think
>> of.
>> I'm tired of wasting time and money on this piece of junk.
>> Unless I can be certain any further replacement parts will work, I'm
>> going to scrap it and take my losses, which would be close to $300 as
>> of right now. I will also vow to never gamble on a Samsung again -
>> they're nothing but trouble.
>> Any advice would be appreciated
>
> Usually these problems are due to the static centering rings on one or
> more of the CRTs being misadjusted and the convergence IC has to put out
> a steady DC component to correct it. If you scope the outputs from the
> convergence IC and see both positive and negative current swings into
> the convergence magnets, everything is OK. If not, you need to adjust
> the centering magnet(s) on the appropriate tube(s) and then re-converge
> the set.
>
> David

Certain Samsung models were pretty popular for this. I take it by your
knowledge that you've worked on a few.

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 12:41 pm
From: "David"

> Usually these problems are due to the static centering rings on
> one or
> more of the CRTs being misadjusted and the convergence IC has
> to put out
> a steady DC component to correct it. If you scope the outputs
> from the
> convergence IC and see both positive and negative current
> swings into
> the convergence magnets, everything is OK. If not, you need to
> adjust
> the centering magnet(s) on the appropriate tube(s) and then
> re-converge
> the set.
>
> David

>Certain Samsung models were pretty popular for this. I take it
>by your
>knowledge that you've worked on a few.

Yes, but those were not the only sets with this problem. There
were quite a few Sony sets as well. If the convergence ICs are
running hot, the scope comes out and 9 times out of 10, fixing
the static centering and re-convergence clears the overheating.

David

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 1:12 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:41:58 -0600, David wrote:

>> Usually these problems are due to the static centering rings on one or
>> more of the CRTs being misadjusted and the convergence IC has to put
>> out
>> a steady DC component to correct it. If you scope the outputs from the
>> convergence IC and see both positive and negative current swings into
>> the convergence magnets, everything is OK. If not, you need to adjust
>> the centering magnet(s) on the appropriate tube(s) and then re-converge
>> the set.
>>
>> David
>
>>Certain Samsung models were pretty popular for this. I take it by your
>>knowledge that you've worked on a few.
>
> Yes, but those were not the only sets with this problem. There were
> quite a few Sony sets as well. If the convergence ICs are running hot,
> the scope comes out and 9 times out of 10, fixing the static centering
> and re-convergence clears the overheating.
>
> David

Makes sense. I'd have to assume these were factory defects that resulted
in the sets affected to work for a couple years. Or do the static
adjustments somehow move on their own due to heat/cool cycles? I know on
my Panasonic 51" PTV the screws holding the convergence ICs were
laughably loose when I replaced them in 2006. The set worked fine from
1999. And has worked fine since the repair. I used a little compound on
the screw thread and a dab of glue on the heads after I torqued them down
so they wouldn't walk back loose which is what I theorized happened. No
way would the amps have lasted 6+ years as loosely set to the heat sink
as they were.

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Bad cap outcomes
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/ec9df43e004018a7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 12:23 pm
From: Baron

Jeff Liebermann Inscribed thus:

> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 09:38:53 -0700, D Yuniskis
> <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
>
>>I'm wondering what the prevailing approach is when
>>it comes to dealing with kit that has been found to
>>have "bad cap-itis". Particularly, PC's.
>
> That's rapidly becoming a major part of my business, second only to
> malware removal.

Agreed ! Malware is most definitely No:1 Bad caps No:2 !

>>Do folks exploe the current operating conditions
>>of the machine *before* re-cap-ping (i.e., see
>>what supplies are affected, what sorts of ripple
>>is present, etc.)?
>
> No. It takes too much time. If it's obvious that there are bad caps
> in the box, the only decision is whether to replace ALL the caps, not
> probing around looking for sections to avoid. Where I get into
> trouble is when I get a working machine, that has obvious signs of
> leaking or bulging caps, that will eventually die. The customer often
> does not want me to do a major motherboard capacitor replacement if
> it's still working. Oddly, some of these machines have lasted years
> with obvious bulging caps.

I tend to point out to the customer that there is a liability in leaving
bad caps alone. At some point there will be a catastrophic failure and
that they will have to pay again at some time in the future. Since
they are paying a fixed service charge its in their interests to have
the caps replaced before that happens. Yes it bumps up the bill, but
not as much as it would if they have to replace the machine before they
need to !

>>Or, do you just replace and
>>*functionally* retest (i.e., if you haven't
>>probed the circuit to get an idea for the exact
>>nature of the problem, probing afterwards at
>>that level of detail seems to be a contradiction)?
>
> No. I use the shotgun approach and just replace every cap of the same
> type. The time I spend doing the "extra" caps is about the same as
> what it would take to probe around looking for the worst offenders.
> The idea is to do the job once, and not have it come back with
> additional blown caps.

I would do the same. I have also started paying attention to the caps
in the RAM PSU circuits and replacing them as well. Having had some
really weird machine behavior because they have become bad.

>>In particular, how do you know if the system has
>>been operating within "absolute maximum ratings"
>>while this fault has been present? How do you
>>know the system's reliability/integrity hasn't
>>been compromised (so your "fix" is just a
>>band-aid)?
>
> Ouch. I've bought bulk caps on eBay suspecting that I may be asking
> for trouble by installing garbage caps. When possible, I'll buy
> Panasonic caps because I've had no problems with them. If it will
> fit, I try to increase the voltage rating, even if it means using a
> smaller capacitance value. I have attempted some accelerated lifetime
> testing using an ESR meter, with inconclusive results. At this time,
> I can't tell the difference between a new bad cap, and new good cap. I
> consider uprating the caps near the CPU as mandatory as I know (and
> have measured and calculated) that they are running too hot for their
> voltage rating. Also, I try to use polymer caps, but they're only
> available in smaller values and kinda expensive.

I've had some very odd behavior that has disappeared when replacing caps
not directly involved with the CPU PSU circuits. I recall one machine
that had a very odd patterning on the screen as the resolution was
increased. Replacing the RAM PSU caps cured that problem. The clue
was only the on board graphics showed the problem. Putting in an
external graphics card was just fine.

>>E.g., I've been recommending disposing of machines
>>with this problem. The labor to re-cap just doesn't
>>make sense given the book value of machines that
>>exhibit these problems -- especially in light of
>>the fact that you can't be sure that the "repaired"
>>machine is really "100%" (maybe OK for a machine you
>>use informally at home, but would you want to *rely*
>>on it in a commercial environment?).
>
> Not totally true. The problem with getting a new machine is that the
> customer will have to pay me to transplant their software to the new
> machine. Often, that's more expensive than the machine. If it
> involves an OS upgrade, it gets more complicated. Of course if the
> machine is ancient, it's not an issue.
>
> There's little difference between home and "commercial" machines these
> days unless you're talking about servers. Well, maybe more chrome and
> glitz on the home machines.

Very true nowadays. :-)

>>I suspect most machines are just recapped and re-used
>>but wanted confirmation or repudiation of that opinion.
>
> It's about 50% here. If the machine is more than about 6 years old,
> I'll usually suggest a replacement. If fairly recent (Core2Duo or
> better), I fix it. My recent batting average is about 75% success. It
> was much worse in the past when I didn't replace all the caps.
>
> However, a major problem has been BGA array soldering. If I dive into
> the machine, replace all the caps, there are still plenty of other
> things that can cause a subsequent warranty problem. I try to warn
> the customer that replacing the caps is a "best effort" and that if it
> fails, they're committed to buying a new machine, and that I owe them
> a new machine. It's awkward, messy, and full of problems. They have
> to recognize that recapping involved some risk. It's often easier to
> just suggest they buy a new machine than to deal with the ethical
> issues required to convince them that simply touching their machine
> does not create a lifetime warranty.

Yes that can be a problem with some clients. They expect you to be fair
with them, but they aren't prepared to be fair with you.

I've actually had an instance where a client sued me and the Judge found
in my favor. They then refused to abide by the judgement, so I counter
sued and won. They still refused to accept that they had to pay and
ended up with the court bailiff paying them a visit. I'm currently
getting £2.00p per week and expect to wait about twelve years before I
get paid in full.

> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html>
> This is from about 1987.
>
Hey Jeff, can I use that ! Big Grin.

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 1:56 pm
From: whit3rd

On Jan 6, 8:38 am, D Yuniskis <not.going.to...@seen.com> wrote:

> I'm wondering what the prevailing approach is when
> it comes to dealing with kit that has been found to
> have "bad cap-itis". Particularly, PC's.

> I suspect most machines are just recapped and re-used

Firstly, the reason for 'bad caps' could be (1) faulty
chemistry of a batch at the factory, (2) substandard
or counterfeit products, (3) poor design.

For the 2002-2005 period, there was lots of (1) and (2)
going on. If that's the issue, you have to replace all
the high-ripple-current capacitors at the same time (and
it might not be terribly difficult to do so). The ones that
haven't failed, are VERY LIKELY to die soon.

I've never had all the right sizes and ratings of capacitors
handy in my stock, so it takes a week or so to order
replacements (and a half hour or more to compose an
online order of the dozen different types for a board).
Mainly, if this were a work machine, it'd be too
slow getting it back to the customer, so "time to upgrade"
is the rule. If it's for a spare/backup computer, or other
low-time-pressure situation, sure, I'd recap. Have
done a few, in fact, just here at home (four DTV boxes
and a computer or two).

Warning: if the motherboard caps failed, check also the power
supply (same time-of-manufacture, after all).

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 8:27 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 20:23:19 +0000, Baron
<baron.nospam@linuxmaniac.nospam.net> wrote:

>> <http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/diploma.html>
>> This is from about 1987.

>Hey Jeff, can I use that ! Big Grin.

Sure. Unfortunately, the "Certificate Maker" program I used to create
it only ran on a Mac Plus on System 6. I still have the program
somewhere, but the Mac got turned into a fishbowl after it blew up its
third or fourth flyback xformer. Feel free to use the JPG. If you
want a better scan, I have the original framed and hanging above my
desk where the customer can't miss seeing it. I have yet to find a
modern program that made stock certificate borders as nice as the
original 1987 Mac program.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

==============================================================================
TOPIC: instructor solution manual for Fundamentals of Fluid Mechanics 6th Ed
by Munson
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/eb958e9f8813662e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 12:42 pm
From: peter kalvin

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instructor solution manual for Computer Networking: A Top-Down
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Morris Mano
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instructor solution manual for Corporate Finance, 7E, by Ross
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instructor solution manual for Discrete Mathematics ( 6th Ed., Richard
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instructor solution manual for Dynamic Modeling and Control of
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instructor solution manual for Econometric Analysis, 5E, by Greene
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instructor solution manual for Econometrics: A Modern Introduction
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instructor solution manual for Electrical Engineering Principles and
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instructor solution manual for Elementary Differential Equations
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jhon w.Nobury
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instructor solution manual for FUNDAMENTALS OF ENGINEERING
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by Munson
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Halliday, Resnick, Walker
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Using the Web and Matlab (3rd Ed., Kamen & Bonnie S Heck)
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by Chih-Tang Sah
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Ed by Leet
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2nd Ed. by Cengel
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by Sonntag, Borgnakke and Van Wylen
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Addison Wesley
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instructor solution manual for Guide to Energy Management, Fifth
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instructor solution manual for Hydraulics in Civil and Environmental
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instructor solution manual for Introduction To Analysis (3rdEd) -by
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Applied Modern Physics
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Chemical Engineering
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Econometrics (2nd ed.,
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Electric Circuits, 6E,
Dorf
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Electrodynamics (3rd
Ed., David J. Griffiths)
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Elementary Particles
2nd Ed by David Griffiths
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Environmental
Engineering and Science, Edition 2, Masters
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Bridger
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Fluid Mechanics (6E.,
Robert Fox, Alan McDonald & Philip)
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edition by Alan T. McDonald, Robert W Fox
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Graph Theory 2E - West
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Java Programming,
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Linear Algebra, 3rd
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Linear Optimization by
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Management Accounting,
14 ED by Horngren, Schatzberg
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Mathematical Statistics
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Measurements Systems 2nd Ed by Alciatore, Histand
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Operations Research -
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Probability 2nd Ed by
Bertsekas and Tsitsiklis
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Probability by Dimitri
P. Bertsekas and John N. Tsitsiklis
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Probability by
Grinstead, Snell
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Quantum Mechanics (2nd
Ed., David J. Griffiths)
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Quantum Mechanics 1st
edition (1995) by David J. Griffiths
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Scientific Computation
and Programming, 1st Edition by Daniel Kaplan
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J. Orfanidis
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Signal Processing by
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Solid State Physics 8th
Ed by Kittel & Charles
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Statistical Physics by
Kerson Huang
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Statistical Quality
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to the Theory of
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Thermal and Fluids
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instructor solution manual for Introduction to Thermal Systems
Engineering Moran Shapiro Munson
instructor solution manual for Introduction to VLSI Circuits and
Systems, by John P. Uyemura
instructor solution manual for Introduction to Wireless Systems by P.M
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instructor solution manual for Introductory Econometrics A Modern
Approach, 3Ed by Jeffrey Wooldridge
instructor solution manual for Introductory Quantum Optics
(Christopher Gerry & Peter Knight)
instructor solution manual for Introdution to Accounting 3rd Ed by
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instructor solution manual for Introdution to Solid State Physics, 8th
Edition by Kittel
instructor solution manual for Investment Analysis and Portfolio
Management 7th Edition by Frank K. et al. Reilly
instructor solution manual for Investments by Charles P. Jones
instructor solution manual for IT Networking Labs by Tom Cavaiani
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instructor solution manual for Kinematics, Dynamics, and Design of
Machinery, 2nd Ed., Waldron & Kinzel
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Albert Vannice
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Silfvast)
instructor solution manual for Learning SAS in the Computer Lab 3rd ED
by Elliott, Morrell
instructor solution manual for Lectures on Corporate Finance 2006, 2
Ed by Bossaerts, Oedegaard
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra - 2 Ed - Poole
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra and Its Applications 3rd
ed by David C. Lay
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra Done Right, 2nd Ed by
Sheldon Axler
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra with Applications (6th
Ed., S. Leon)
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra With Applications, 2nd
Edition by W. Keith Nicholson
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra, 4th Ed, by Stephen H.
Friedberg , Arnold J. Insel , Lawrence E. Spence
instructor solution manual for Linear Algebra, by J. Hefferon
instructor solution manual for Linear Circuit Analysis Time Domain,
Phasor and Laplace.., 2nd Ed, Lin
instructor solution manual for Linear Systems And Signals, 1stE, B P
Lathi
instructor solution manual for Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals,
2E, by Morris Mano and Charles Kime
instructor solution manual for Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals,
3d edition by Morris Mano and Charles Kime
instructor solution manual for Logic and Computer Design Fundamentals,
4/E, by Morris Mano and Charles Kime
instructor solution manual for Machine Design : An Integrated Approach
(3rd Ed., Norton)
instructor solution manual for Managing Business Process Flows:
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Deshmukh, et al)
instructor solution manual for Managing Engineering and Technology
(4th, Morse & Babcock)
instructor solution manual for Manufacturing Processes for Engineering
Materials (5th Ed. Kalpakjian & Smith)
instructor solution manual for Materials and Processes in
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instructor solution manual for Materials for Civil and Construction
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instructor solution manual for Materials Science and Engineering- An
Introduction ( 7th Ed., William D. Callister, Jr.)
instructor solution manual for Materials Science and Engineering- An
Introduction (6th Ed., William D. Callister, Jr.)
instructor solution manual for Mathematical Analysis, Second Edition
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instructor solution manual for Mathematical Methods for Physicists 5
Ed, Arfken
instructor solution manual for Mathematical Methods for Physics and
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instructor solution manual for Mathematical Methods in the Physical
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instructor solution manual for Mathematical Models in Biology An
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instructor solution manual for Mathematical Techniques 4th ED by D W
Jordan & P Smith
instructor solution manual for Mathematics for Economists, by Carl P.
Simon , Lawrence E. Blume
instructor solution manual for Mathematics for Physicists by Susan Lea
instructor solution manual for Matrix Analysis and Applied Linear
Algebra by Meyer
instructor solution manual for Mechanical Engineering Design 8th Ed by
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instructor solution manual for Mechanical Engineering Design, 7th Ed.
by Mischke, Shigley
instructor solution manual for Mechanical Measurements (6th Ed.,
Beckwith, Marangoni & Lienhard)
instructor solution manual for Mechanical Vibrations (3rd Ed., Rao)
instructor solution manual for Mechanics of Aircraft Structures, 2nd
Ed by Sun
instructor solution manual for Mechanics of Fluids (8th Ed., Massey)
instructor solution manual for Mechanics of Fluids 3rd ED Vol 1 by
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instructor solution manual for Mechanics of Materials 5 edition by
James M. Gere
instructor solution manual for Mechanics of Materials (6th Ed., Riley,
Sturges & Morris)
instructor solution manual for Mechanics Of Materials Beer Johnston
3rd
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: scope recommendations?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/945010a432810e85?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 1:32 pm
From: "Charles"

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news:prestwhich-E20E46.06241207012011@mx01.eternal-september.org...

A friend is being coerced by circumstance into learning a bit of
electronics, and has need for a basic scope. I told him he could borrow
my old one, since I don't use it much anymore. But, he's thinking about
getting his own, and I have no idea what's available these days. Any
suggestions about:

manufacturers to look at or avoid
distributor recommendations
used from ebay?
standalone vs. handheld scopemeter vs. PC based

would be welcome. Requirements are minimal, dual trace would be nice but
we aren't talking about stratospheric frequencies or many bells and
whistles. Personally I like the standalone with the physical knobs and
switches, but maybe some of the handhelds or the PC based units with
soft controls are decent these days.

If your friend can wait, the hamfests coming up often have great buys on
scopes. He should be accompanied by someone who knows what to look for and
he should deal with someone local in case there is a problem.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 1:43 pm
From: Jeffrey Angus

On 1/7/2011 8:24 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
> A friend is being coerced by circumstance into learning
> a bit of electronics, and has need for a basic scope.

Ya know, just about any CRT based scope will work.
The real key is learning how to look at the trace
and "see" what it's trying to tell you.

Jeff

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 4:50 pm
From: mike

Smitty Two wrote:
> A friend is being coerced by circumstance into learning a bit of
> electronics, and has need for a basic scope. I told him he could borrow
> my old one, since I don't use it much anymore. But, he's thinking about
> getting his own, and I have no idea what's available these days. Any
> suggestions about:
>
> manufacturers to look at or avoid
> distributor recommendations
> used from ebay?
> standalone vs. handheld scopemeter vs. PC based
>
> would be welcome. Requirements are minimal, dual trace would be nice but
> we aren't talking about stratospheric frequencies or many bells and
> whistles. Personally I like the standalone with the physical knobs and
> switches, but maybe some of the handhelds or the PC based units with
> soft controls are decent these days.
>
> TIA, of course.
Might wanna tweak your question somewhat...
"learning a bit of electronics"?
audio electronics?
microwave electronics?
cellphone modulation electronics?
The optimum scope is CRITICALLY dependent on what you're gonna do with it.

You get more bang for the buck with an older analog scope...
until you run out of capability for your application.

Second the hamfest idea.
But you can also visit a local ham club and ask around.
Most of us have more than one...o...5 scopes in the attic.

If you don't know what you're doing, borrowing a scope 'till you do
is an option.
Do him a favor and force your old scope on him temporarily.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Ethical question.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0951ee48819ee2bb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 1:44 pm
From: PeterD

On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 18:59:37 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow <mhywatt@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
>
>> Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
>>
>> So you do the usual amount of diagnostics and knock a little sense back
>> into the machine.
>>
>> Being nosy of course, you check out the pictures folder to see what
>> their kinks are.
>>
>> Oh, my definitely a bozo no no there.....
>>
>> So what do you do?
>> (Some answers giving below are tongue in cheek for the humor impaired.)
>>
>> Act like nothing happened?
>>
>> Congratulate them on their tastes?
>>
>> Wipe the drive with something like bcwipe and give it back to them?
>>
>> Spin up the drive separately and bang it against the desk repeatedly
>> until you knock a head loose?
>>
>> Make copies for yourself?
>>
>> Hand it over to the local police?
>>
>> Give it back to the customer and turn them in after a few weeks?
>>
>> Charge the customer extra and demand payment to keep quiet?
>>
>> The two things that bother me the most are the police have a terrible
>> track record on anonymous and the lawyers like to claim that YOU put it
>> there.
>>
>> So, what to do?
>>
>> Jeff
>
>I'll assume you found some child porn. If it were me I would hand it over
>to the cops.

Assuming child porn, he may not have an option, but be required to
hand it over or face possible legal concequences. Consider this, a
week later, the guy is busted for something else, and the porn is
discovered... What are the odds that he will say "Wasn't on my
computer before I took it to ABC for service, they must have dropped
that suff on the drive, not me!" and when the authorities come to you,
what are you going to say? You didn't report it? That's a crime in
many places. You didn't do it? Try to prove it!

> Can't say I really hate much about the world but child abuse
>and those who do the abuse would be 1 of the few things I hate.

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 1:46 pm
From: PeterD

On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 11:25:19 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:

>The customer brought in the computer to be repaired -- not to be searched by
>a nosy serviceman. You are obliged, if only by common courtesy, not to poke
>your snout where it doesn't belong.

I will say that when I teach law and ethics in the university where I
teach, this is one thing we do cover. You don't snoop on anyone's
computer for any reason unless the owner has explicitly approved it.

Then again, I've seen some idiots with stuff like this on their
computers and still say something like "it is ok to look on my
drive..."

Not everyone has a brain and knows how to use it!

>
>Unless you have good reason to believe someone's life is in danger, you
>should keep your trap shut.
>
>If this is kiddie porn, you might contact the police anonymously and ask
>them what they recommend doing.

Excellent advice.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 2:20 pm
From: D Yuniskis

On 1/7/2011 2:44 PM, PeterD wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 18:59:37 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow<mhywatt@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
>>
>>> Customer brings in a lap top. "Won't boot"
>>>
>>> So you do the usual amount of diagnostics and knock a little sense back
>>> into the machine.
>>>
>>> Being nosy of course, you check out the pictures folder to see what
>>> their kinks are.
>>>
>>> Oh, my definitely a bozo no no there.....
>>>
>>> So what do you do?
>>> (Some answers giving below are tongue in cheek for the humor impaired.)
>>>
>>> Act like nothing happened?
>>>
>>> Congratulate them on their tastes?
>>>
>>> Wipe the drive with something like bcwipe and give it back to them?
>>>
>>> Spin up the drive separately and bang it against the desk repeatedly
>>> until you knock a head loose?
>>>
>>> Make copies for yourself?
>>>
>>> Hand it over to the local police?
>>>
>>> Give it back to the customer and turn them in after a few weeks?
>>>
>>> Charge the customer extra and demand payment to keep quiet?
>>>
>>> The two things that bother me the most are the police have a terrible
>>> track record on anonymous and the lawyers like to claim that YOU put it
>>> there.
>>>
>>> So, what to do?
>>>
>>> Jeff
>>
>> I'll assume you found some child porn. If it were me I would hand it over
>> to the cops.
>
> Assuming child porn, he may not have an option, but be required to
> hand it over or face possible legal concequences. Consider this, a
> week later, the guy is busted for something else, and the porn is
> discovered... What are the odds that he will say "Wasn't on my
> computer before I took it to ABC for service, they must have dropped
> that suff on the drive, not me!" and when the authorities come to you,
> what are you going to say? You didn't report it? That's a crime in
> many places. You didn't do it? Try to prove it!

IANAL. But, ...

Technically, the burden of proof that you *did* it lies with
the authorities (though that doesn't mean to say you're not
going to be in for a lot of headache, etc.). E.g., you can
*kill* an intruder in your house, here -- but, be prepared
to spend a year in the court system defending your actions
(and who knows how much exposure to civil suits you might have!)

[note that you are still, potentially, in this predicament
even if you didn't *know* there was something "illegal" on
the machine]

Proving you were unaware of it can be tricky. Most systems
track accesses to files -- in several different ways. Some
filesystems track "last access time". Many applications
maintain MRU lists. And, presentation layers might also.

I.e., if you used *his* machine to view *his* files, the
machine can attest to the fact that "someone looked at this"
at some particular time (he can then claim you had physical
possession of the device at the time in question).

Of course, you can cook all of this data in the machine
and make it *claim* anything you want (i.e., last accessed
20 years ago -- before the laptop was even manufactured! :< ).
Though you then leave yourself open to suspicion for simply
*knowing* how to do these things!

However, if you have *told* anyone about this, then you (and
they!) are complicit.

I stand by my original comment: *looking* is your first mistake!
When you're in business, you are always at increased risk for
"problems" because you typically deal with a variety of people
about which you know very little (this is why I only service
computers of friends/neighbors/relatives).

>> Can't say I really hate much about the world but child abuse
>> and those who do the abuse would be 1 of the few things I hate.

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 2:35 pm
From: D Yuniskis

On 1/7/2011 2:46 PM, PeterD wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jan 2011 11:25:19 -0800, "William Sommerwerck"
> <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> The customer brought in the computer to be repaired -- not to be searched by
>> a nosy serviceman. You are obliged, if only by common courtesy, not to poke
>> your snout where it doesn't belong.
>
> I will say that when I teach law and ethics in the university where I
> teach, this is one thing we do cover. You don't snoop on anyone's
> computer for any reason unless the owner has explicitly approved it.

That depends on how you define "snoop". Gratuitously poking around
at things you don't *need* to see vs. *innocently* using things that
are "on-hand" to test the machine's operations...

[BTW, I recommend Forester & Morrison's "Computer Ethics". A bit
dated but brings up lots of issues that are worth considering
wet the ubiquity of computers in our society]

> Then again, I've seen some idiots with stuff like this on their
> computers and still say something like "it is ok to look on my
> drive..."
>
> Not everyone has a brain and knows how to use it!

It is alarming how naive/ignorant most folks are re: technological
issues. Whether it is "personal privacy" or more insidious issues.

I have a friend who tends to be obsessive about privacy and takes
often extraordinary measures to safeguard his. Yet, was stunned
(decades ago) when I told him that his use of "800 numbers"
compromised his privacy. Nowadays, cell phones being *personal*
items (vs. *shared* items) makes this even moreso.

[I was able to document my (ex)brother-in-law's "philandering"
just by examining his cell phone and charge/banking records.
"How do you know that I wasn't at work on this date? And,
how can you claim that I was at the No-Tell Motel at that
time? *And*, that I was with that particular girl??"]

>> Unless you have good reason to believe someone's life is in danger, you
>> should keep your trap shut.
>>
>> If this is kiddie porn, you might contact the police anonymously and ask
>> them what they recommend doing.
>
> Excellent advice.

There is no "anonymously". Your call *will* be recorded.
If the information is "actionable", you can bet the "closest
squad" will be diverted to your location.

Someone used one of the computers at the local library to send
an "anonymous" (threatening) email to <mumblemumble>. Police
simply took the computer away as evidence. Guy was arrested
a few weeks later...

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 3:02 pm
From: mm

On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:35:36 -0700, D Yuniskis
<not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:

>
>I have a friend who tends to be obsessive about privacy and takes
>often extraordinary measures to safeguard his. Yet, was stunned
>(decades ago) when I told him that his use of "800 numbers"
>compromised his privacy.

In what way? Do you mean because *67 won't hide your phone number
from them? MOst people don't know that. They know it about 911 but
there is no organized method of telling anyone about 800 and 866
numbers and it's not surprising he didn't know.

> Nowadays, cell phones being *personal*
>items (vs. *shared* items) makes this even moreso.
>
>[I was able to document my (ex)brother-in-law's "philandering"
>just by examining his cell phone and charge/banking records.
>"How do you know that I wasn't at work on this date? And,
>how can you claim that I was at the No-Tell Motel at that
>time? *And*, that I was with that particular girl??"]
>
>>> Unless you have good reason to believe someone's life is in danger, you
>>> should keep your trap shut.
>>>
>>> If this is kiddie porn, you might contact the police anonymously and ask
>>> them what they recommend doing.

If it's kiddie porn, they'll tell you to give them your address and
they'll come over that day, or they'll send someone, and not to return
the computer yet, and that is the right thing to do, subject maybe to
my distinction in another post.

>> Excellent advice.
>
>There is no "anonymously". Your call *will* be recorded.
>If the information is "actionable", you can bet the "closest
>squad" will be diverted to your location.
>
>Someone used one of the computers at the local library to send
>an "anonymous" (threatening) email to <mumblemumble>. Police
>simply took the computer away as evidence. Guy was arrested
>a few weeks later...

You can still make a phone call from a pay phone. Or your
(ex)brother-in-law's phone, maybe.

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 3:36 pm
From: D Yuniskis

On 1/7/2011 4:02 PM, mm wrote:
> On Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:35:36 -0700, D Yuniskis
> <not.going.to.be@seen.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a friend who tends to be obsessive about privacy and takes
>> often extraordinary measures to safeguard his. Yet, was stunned
>> (decades ago) when I told him that his use of "800 numbers"
>> compromised his privacy.
>
> In what way? Do you mean because *67 won't hide your phone number
> from them? MOst people don't know that. They know it about 911 but
> there is no organized method of telling anyone about 800 and 866
> numbers and it's not surprising he didn't know.

The conversation in question happened in the early 80's.
I just told him that the called party gets a list of
phone numbers that placed calls *to* their number as
part of their billing arrangement. Nowadays, that
information is "live" -- e.g., call to "authorize"
your newly received credit card and the device on
the other end of the line is comparing the phone number
from which you are *currently* calling to the one that
they have on file for you.

The point of my comment is that there are lots of ways that
communications/transactions are "tagged" that even a "savvy"
user may not be aware of.

E.g., your IP address can be used to tie "who you are" to
"what you say (i.e., *post*/email/etc.).

"Ah, but I go to the local coffee bar and use their *wireless*
so the IP address isn't tied to *me*!" [Yes, but your MAC
is! :> )

"OK, so I'll change network cards. Or, hack the firmware
so that I can generate 'random' MACs (and rely on probability
to ensure I don't accidentally pick one that is in use)?
[yes, but your browser has a footprint that can be used
to narrow down "who you might be"]

"OK, so I will reload software each time and pick different
browsers, option configurations, etc." [yes, but you have a
certain "style of writing"...]

Etc.

I.e., don't do anything that you wouldn't do "non-anonymously".

>> Nowadays, cell phones being *personal*
>> items (vs. *shared* items) makes this even moreso.
>>
>> [I was able to document my (ex)brother-in-law's "philandering"
>> just by examining his cell phone and charge/banking records.
>> "How do you know that I wasn't at work on this date? And,
>> how can you claim that I was at the No-Tell Motel at that
>> time? *And*, that I was with that particular girl??"]
>>
>>>> Unless you have good reason to believe someone's life is in danger, you
>>>> should keep your trap shut.
>>>>
>>>> If this is kiddie porn, you might contact the police anonymously and ask
>>>> them what they recommend doing.
>
> If it's kiddie porn, they'll tell you to give them your address and
> they'll come over that day, or they'll send someone, and not to return

I have no idea. I don't put myself in these sorts of situations
because I don't want to have to deal with them :> (I've got
enough stuff that I *must* do without looking for *other*
things to put on my plate! :> )

A friend had a *box* of cash delivered to her doorstep.
I recall talking with her at the time about what she
should do. Of course, she would have loved to just
*keep* it (~10K IIRC).

Aside from the moral issues, my advice to her was that
she *had* to report it to the police. It is no doubt
"dirty" money (how many folks ship boxes of cash??).
And, if someone sent it to your house intending it
for the previous resident -- or, perhaps transposed
two digits in the address -- what do you do when/if
they knock on your door (with a crowbar!) asking
for their money back??

> the computer yet, and that is the right thing to do, subject maybe to
> my distinction in another post.
>
>>> Excellent advice.
>>
>> There is no "anonymously". Your call *will* be recorded.
>> If the information is "actionable", you can bet the "closest
>> squad" will be diverted to your location.
>>
>> Someone used one of the computers at the local library to send
>> an "anonymous" (threatening) email to<mumblemumble>. Police
>> simply took the computer away as evidence. Guy was arrested
>> a few weeks later...
>
> You can still make a phone call from a pay phone. Or your
> (ex)brother-in-law's phone, maybe.

Sure! Though the call is still recorded (so it could
be proven to be *your* voice) and can still be traced
to identify where *you* are at this moment.

As I said, don't do anything that you wouldn't do "non-anonymously".
If you don't have the cajones to do/say it when folks KNOW who
you are, relying on "anonymity" is eventually going to leave you
disappointed/surprised!

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 4:22 pm
From: Matthew Fries

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:58:21 -0600, Jeffrey Angus
<jangus@suddenlink.net> wrote:

>So, what to do?
>
>Jeff

Get a lawyer. Ask them.

I remember several years ago, something similar happened to Pete
Townshend of "The Who". He brought his computer into a shop for
service and the tech squealed on him because there was some child
abuse photos on there.
Pete said that he was doing research because he had been abused when
he was young.

I think Pete got some sort of community service sentence, but that was
after a long legal proceeding. I remember feeling really pissed at the
tech who did that (and I'm sure Pete did as well).

All this happened in the UK, and my anger may have been misplaced if
there is some law that compells people to report this stuff, but my
instinct as a USian is not to go snooping, and if you did, don't let
on that you did (by reporting it).

BTW: to keep this on topic... What was the problem with the laptop
that made it not boot?

Thanks.

Remove the BALONEY from my email address.
-----------------------------------------------------
Matthew Fries Minneapolis, MN USA
freeze@baloneyvisi.com

"Quit eating all my *STUFF*!" - The Tick

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 5:07 pm
From: Jeffrey Angus

On 1/7/2011 6:22 PM, Matthew Fries wrote:
> I remember several years ago, something similar happened to Pete
> Townshend of "The Who".

Uh-huh, Community service. Right. If it had been any of us,
we'd still be in prison.

> BTW: to keep this on topic... What was the problem with the laptop
> that made it not boot?

Actually the topic is ethical question.
But since you asked, video driver for a web cam. wrong
one, crashed the machine on boot.

And while I originally posted "tongue in cheek" about
snooping, the original problem was the web cam driver.
When I brought up the correct one to make sure it
worked, I took a picture, and it dropped it into the
"Bozo no no" zone where I went to check that it worked
properly.

Jeff

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Reverb Mate, Sole Mate , spring reverb
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a2ecc5b273e20721?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 2:26 pm
From: "Gareth Magennis"

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ig6m2k$nr7$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> Brand new out of the box and the footswitch is broken. Owner wants me to
> replace the switch rather than returning to the importers for a
> replacement.
> While in there try and sort out what apparently is an age-old problem with
> such external reverb boxes. Set guitar , amp and reverb for clean and then
> excess gain when changing to "dirty" ch. He does not use the second footsw
> so I'm thinking of using that to switch in a preset over some gain setting
> part of the cct - anyone been here before?
> Hiding to nothing?

Why not just simplify things immensely and swap the second footswitch, that
is not used, for the broken one.

Gareth.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: SEXY STARS HOT VIDEOS
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/27ec2ef629757c1b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 4:40 pm
From: Hot Hot

Watch Hollywood sex star ANGELINA JOLIE new hot
exposing dating videos, AISHWARYA RAI excellent Sexy night videos
and BIPASABASU Romantic scheans athttp://120hotlatenightimages.co.cc

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Canon A420 camera
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/11a9e31849085804?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 6:04 pm
From: Jeroni Paul

On 2 ene, 19:34, adr...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:
> I have a three year old Canon A420 which has been working perfectly
> until last week. Now pictures are coming out grossly over-exposed,
> although they look satisfactory on the LCD screen right up to the point
> where the release button is pressed.
>
> Moving from light to dark subjects, the system adjusts the image on the
> screen to the changes in light level in a normal manner. Holding the
> release button half way down 'freezes' a satisfactory picture, but then,
> after pressing it the rest of the way, the stored result is whited-out.
>
> By deliberately choosing dark subject matter or something which needs
> flash, I can force the correct exposure. The picture then appears to
> have a fine horizontal line structure imposed on it.

Given all your described sympthoms I would say it is the CCD sensor
starting to fail. It is showing some dark rows across the pictures,
typical of problems with these sensors. These dark rows make the
camera think the picture is darker than it is and increases exposure
to compensate. When you see the picture on its LCD live it is not
analyzing all the rows but a small fraction and these failing rows
have no impact at all, so it appears to work properly. But when you
take the photo it processes all the information.

I think the sensor will have to be replaced (if worth) but meanwhile
you can lower the exposure manually as you did as a workaround.
Consider also that overexposed photos may be corrected to some degree
with an editing program that can correct brightness/contrast. I get
quite good results with MS Office photo editor, my camera has a
tendency to take pictures too dark mainly under artificial light and I
fix some of them before printing.

Sorry if it sounds like bad news.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Recharging li-on batteries
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/94315ad5a39e6e04?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 8:31 pm
From: klem kedidelhopper

I just was given two 36 volt Dewalt drill batteries that would not
take a charge. I opened them up and found what looks like the charger
unit built right into the battery pack. These batteries are about the
size of C batteries but a little bigger. They measure about 3.2 volts
apiece. I know that these are li-on cells because there are 8 monitor
wires going into the charger unit. One pack has one bad battery and
the other has several bad ones. I also have a set of these type of
batteries that came out of a laptop. The shame of it is I really can't
do anything with any of these good cells because I have no way to
recharge any of these. Does anyone know of a generic charger for li-on
cells or some way that I can recharge these? Thanks, Lenny

==============================================================================
TOPIC: This is Bugging Me
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/f797cb59cf87719f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 7 2011 8:35 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:48:34 -0500, jeff_wisnia
<jwisniaDumpThisPart@conversent.net> wrote:

>What I don't understand is how a tiny bug like that could have enough
>body capacitance to activate the dimmer.

It's not capacitance. The dimmer switch acts on changes to the amount
of 60Hz hummmmm that it picks up. Anything that abruptly changes the
amount of hum will cause the switch to trip. The bettle is apparently
slightly conductive (mostly water) and acts as a slightly larger
antenna for the dimmer switch. When you get close to the switch with
your hand, it's the capacitance between your body and the switch which
increases the hum level. When something actually touches the switch,
it's conduction, which has a greater effect than capacitance.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

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