sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nickel plated polyimide--where to get?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8bee83d05dbdcb50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 7:37 am
From: Phil Hobbs

Glen Walpert wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 23:32:53 -0500, Phil Hobbs wrote:
>
>> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
>> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
>> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
>>
>> I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
>> which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
>> on it.
>>
>> I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
>> quantities (say 10 square feet).
>>
>> Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>
> Not sure about the nickel, but Minco will do custom polyimide film
> heaters to your design:
>
> http://www.minco.com/products/heaters.aspx?id=71

Thanks, I asked them already--they aren't interested in supplying plain
sheets.

I thought about vacuum dep, but it'll get expensive in the sort of
quantity I want, and there's still the adhesion issue. If I still had
my own evaporator, I'd probably do it that way--I could just wrap the PI
round the inside of the bell jar!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net

== 2 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:10 am
From: George Herold

On Jan 20, 11:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
>
> I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
> which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
> on it.
>
> I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
> quantities (say 10 square feet).
>
> Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?
>
> Thanks
>
> Phil Hobbs
>
> --
> Dr Philip C D Hobbs
> Principal
> ElectroOptical Innovations
> 55 Orchard Rd
> Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
> 845-480-2058
>
> email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) nethttp://electrooptical.net

I assume aluminized mylar won't work. I didn't know you could nickle
plate onto plastic? Could you get a local electroplater to put nickel
on aluminized mylar and solder to that?

George H.

== 3 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:23 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

Stupid question...

Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing graphite
into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article about
home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this with Mylar),
then plate it?

== 4 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:42 am
From: Phil Hobbs

George Herold wrote:
> On Jan 20, 11:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
>> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
>> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
>>
>> I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
>> which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
>> on it.
>>
>> I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
>> quantities (say 10 square feet).
>>
>> Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Phil Hobbs
>>

>
> I assume aluminized mylar won't work. I didn't know you could nickle
> plate onto plastic? Could you get a local electroplater to put nickel
> on aluminized mylar and solder to that?
>
> George H.

Thanks.

I'm planning to use it as a really big RTD, so I need a continuous film
of reasonably pure metal with reasonably uniform thickness. The films
have a tendency to crack if the base layer is too thin or too flexible,
which is bad. If I roll it into a cylinder with the metal side in, I'll
put enough of a compressive preload on the nickel to keep it from
cracking under temperature cycling. When the process is better
developed, it might be useful to do the plating on the outside of a
cylinder, so that there'll be a preload when it straightens out.

I'm not sure what temperature the plating is done at, but for lower
temperatures there should be a compressive preload anyway, due to the
differential thermal expansion.

I have a roll of copper-clad polyimide, which is beautiful stuff, in
fact about 250 times too good for this job--the copper is 12 times too
thick and 20 times too conductive. A 40 microinch nickel film is just
the ticket.

Mylar isn't really solderable--it isn't refractive enough. Indium might
work.

Cheers

Phil

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net

== 5 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:46 am
From: Phil Hobbs

William Sommerwerck wrote:
> Stupid question...
>
> Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing graphite
> into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article about
> home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this with Mylar),
> then plate it?
>
>

I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
and then electroless plating.

Not your ideal home project unfortunately!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net

== 6 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:49 am
From: Martin Brown <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk>

On 21/01/2011 04:32, Phil Hobbs wrote:
> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
>
> I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
> which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
> on it.
>
> I haven't found anybody that's interested in supplying it in engineering
> quantities (say 10 square feet).
>
> Anyone here have a favourite shop that does nickel plating on plastic?

You might find your local electroplating shop can do electroless nickel
plating from a physical reducing bath.

Just about DIYable for small quantities if you don't want a very thick
layer. Might even be possible to pattern it with a suitable resist.

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/std/cppb/metals/metalsrecelectroless.htm

Nickel is one of the metals for which reducing baths work well.

Regards,
Martin Brown

== 7 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 9:00 am
From: Bill Sloman

On Jan 21, 5:32 am, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
>
> I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
> which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
> on it.

Could you do electro-etching to thin the copper down until it was
resistive enough? You would need to get down from 12.5 micron of
copper to about 0.03 micron, which would be tricky - since the copper
isn't going to be a uniform 12.5 micron thick layer to start with,
you'd probably end up with a network of isolated islands if you tried
to do it in one hit.

Alternating electro-erosion and electro-polishing might work.

I've been in situations where even a single-atom thick layer of metal
was too conductive for my purposes, but 40 microinches/ 1 micron of
nickel would be a good deal more conductive than that.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

== 8 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 9:01 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:5d2dnTpQK8jsJaTQnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
> William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing
>> graphite into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article
>> about home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this
>> with Mylar), then plate it?

> I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
> well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
> dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
> and then electroless plating.
> Not your ideal home project unfortunately!

Thanks for the clarification.

This is the sort of problem you'd think would have been solved decades ago.
The original SX-70 used copper-coated (plated?) polysulfone, which was then
plated with nickel and chrome. The plating sticks to the plastic with a
tenacity that's almost unbelievable. You actually have to break the plastic
before the plating comes loose.

== 9 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 9:42 am
From: Phil Hobbs

William Sommerwerck wrote:
> "Phil Hobbs"<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
> news:5d2dnTpQK8jsJaTQnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d@supernews.com...
>> William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> Wouldn't it be possible to make the polyimide conductive by rubbing
>>> graphite into its surface ("The Audio Amateur" had at least one article
>>> about home-made electrostatic speakers that showed how to do this
>>> with Mylar), then plate it?
>
>> I'd be worried about the film adhesion--the nickel would only stick as
>> well as the graphite. Plating plastic involves stuff like chromic acid
>> dips, reducing palladium salts to form Pd nucleation sites on the film,
>> and then electroless plating.
>> Not your ideal home project unfortunately!
>
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
> This is the sort of problem you'd think would have been solved decades ago.
> The original SX-70 used copper-coated (plated?) polysulfone, which was then
> plated with nickel and chrome. The plating sticks to the plastic with a
> tenacity that's almost unbelievable. You actually have to break the plastic
> before the plating comes loose.
>
>

Oh, it's been solved, all right--Minco advertises nickel film RTDs. I
tried to get them to make the films, but they either couldn't or didn't
want to, and I didn't want to have to deal with making artwork--I'm
going to pattern it with a Sharpie and some ferric chloride. (Ferric
chloride works well on thin sputtered nickel, so I'm hoping the plated
stuff doesn't have some weird passivation. I should try it out on a
bolt or something before I take the plunge. Of course I can also
electropolish it away in KOH solution.)

BTW the Minco rep is a good guy, who gave me a steer to somebody who may
be their supplier--I just haven't heard from them yet.

Anyway, if it works, I'll try licensing it to them. ;) It should be
good for at least 100x reduction in thermal forcing for the down-hole
application I'm working on--sort of the thermal equivalent of a Faraday
shield.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net

== 10 of 10 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 1:19 pm
From: whit3rd

On Jan 20, 8:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

So, plate your nickel onto anything you want, then apply/bake the
polyimide as a conformal coating, and etch away the 'anything'
layer?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT? How did they do the double image on the Patti Duke show?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/40e332a7f10aa6b4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:02 am
From: news@jecarter.us

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:08 -0500, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com>
wrote:

>
>OT? How did they do the double image on the Patti Duke show?
>
>Does anyone know how they showed two of her at the same time?
>I'm watching reruns now on an 19" tv now, from one foot away, and I
>can't see line or anything. Sometimes they just show the back of the
>head of a double for the second one, but other times they show both of
>them. Nothing shows and and I don't think they had green-screen
>electronic technology then. Was there a physical or photographic
>method of separating one moving image from its background and
>superimposing it on another?

There was "brightness key" technology in the days of black & white TV
the precursor of color-key (commonly called blue screen, although
green screen is also used). It was used for commercials on the Dinah
Shore Show (among other things). It did require care in lighting the
scene which was to have an insert. One of the comments about the
technology was "Dinah Shore could have wound up with a Chevy in her
mouth".

John
Now realizing how many years I have spent in media technology...

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 10:10 am
From: Meat Plow

On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 11:02:25 -0500, news wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:26:08 -0500, mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote:
>
>
>>OT? How did they do the double image on the Patti Duke show?
>>
>>Does anyone know how they showed two of her at the same time? I'm
>>watching reruns now on an 19" tv now, from one foot away, and I can't
>>see line or anything. Sometimes they just show the back of the head of
>>a double for the second one, but other times they show both of them.
>>Nothing shows and and I don't think they had green-screen electronic
>>technology then. Was there a physical or photographic method of
>>separating one moving image from its background and superimposing it on
>>another?
>
> There was "brightness key" technology in the days of black & white TV
> the precursor of color-key (commonly called blue screen, although green
> screen is also used). It was used for commercials on the Dinah Shore
> Show (among other things). It did require care in lighting the scene
> which was to have an insert. One of the comments about the technology
> was "Dinah Shore could have wound up with a Chevy in her mouth".
>
> John
> Now realizing how many years I have spent in media technology...

Chroma key was what it was known as when color tv debuted.

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cell phone data plan
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8974e71ed0054784?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:02 am
From: Lab1 <.@...>

On 1/21/2011 9:17 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

>>> If I have cell phone usb stick for wireless data connection can I use
>>> Magic Jack phone service on my notebook?
>>
>> I don't see why not. If you can use Skype you can use Magic Jack as they
>> are pretty close to the same technology less Magic Jacks DTMF telephone
>> interface.
>
> Have you ever used a Magic Jack? The audio is clear, but there is a
> lot of latency.

Yes, my dad has one. He is on high speed cable internet and I didn't
notice very much latency with his setup. This was about 2 years ago and
MJ wasn't nearly as popular as it is today. He doesn't use it much
because he always has a cell phone. I wonder if whatever MJ uses to
connect to the telco's is bogged down now?

--
-Scott

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 10:07 am
From: Meat Plow

On Thu, 20 Jan 2011 22:07:33 -0500, LSMFT wrote:

> If I have cell phone usb stick for wireless data connection can I use
> Magic Jack phone service on my notebook?

Magic Jack requires a minimum upload speed of 128 KB/s (or kbit/s or
kbps). There is no minimum requirement for download speed.

That's what they say. However to me 128 KB/s is kilobytes per second.

Anyway

Test your upload speed at http://www.speakeasy.net/speedtest/

An IPhone at 3G was rumored to do 225 kbps upstream.

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Fender Frontman 212R amp, 2010
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b4d6a83c2aaabd02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 8:36 am
From: "N_Cook"

Only looked into one speaker so far, probably glue failure. Break where the
axial line of the VC wire bends to the cone angle, not at joins to the
pigtails. Fixable without going into the internal space, reconing, just the
dome space. No VC former discolouration , VC measures 6.1R for 8R speaker
Don't know what the markings mean , assumed cone of 1-20-09 was USA year
date, sticker on basket had G5009062257 Q1

But the other on cone is 3-13-096 and G5009062253 Q1 ,so unlikely the same
batch.
Doubt he drove it enough to knock out the second one by overdriving, getting
the same level as before - will explore next week

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Getting a free prepaid mastercard FREE and charge it with 50$ free now
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/52d605c6b417ede8?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 9:25 am
From: soso essa

Getting a free prepaid mastercard FREE and charge it with 50$ free now

http://forum.agd3as7ab.com/showthread.php?t=994

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Awesome speakers!!
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/19ed616a0fe70f02?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 9:46 am
From: Smitty Two

In article <OZXZo.587302$pX3.457090@en-nntp-11.dc1.easynews.com>,
Archon <Chipbee40_SpamNo@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was actually looking for some good speakers when I came across the ad,
> but seriously though, the whole audio sector is so overhyped, I know a
> couple of guys developing speakers, and the way they go on, its more
> magic than physics. I'd like to see a pro review of those speakers, they
> may well sound great, but so far I've not found anything. The Quads look
> good but again way out of my price range.
> JC

Best speakers I've heard were some prototype electrostatics built by a
friend in the hi-fi biz. Was hoping he'd go into production on them, but
failing that, anyone here have electrostatics that they'd recommend?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 10:29 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> Best speakers I've heard were prototype electrostatics built by a
> friend in the hi-fi biz. Was hoping he'd go into production on them,
> but failing that, anyone here have electrostatics that they'd recommend?

I already recommended Martin-Logan's less-expensive electrostatics.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 11:29 am
From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)

In article <bimij6tublidhp9dko98e5m2t0e2lftbj2@4ax.com>,
JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

>I've always wondered (and dreamed) of a speaker cabinet made of granite or
>soapstone. With the right drivers, I'll bet they'd sound great.

Well, there's probably a trade-off there (especially with regard to
granite). Ideally, you'd like the resonant frequency of a cabinet to
lie well outside the frequency range excited by the driver(s)
inside... either below, or above. It's also beneficial if the cabinet
is relatively "dead" (low Q).

Granite is quite heavy (lowers the resonant frequency), but also quite
stiff (raises it)... I'm not sure what the resulting resonant
frequency of a typical cabinet made of granite would be. I suspect
that its Q probably isn't all that low.

Stiffening a speaker cabinet with internal bracing will usually raise the
resonant frequency (the increased stiffness outweighs the added mass).

Now, a laminate composed of two or more layers of stone, separated by
a very lossy damping compound (a "constrained layer" arrangement)
could be quite interesting.

Unwieldy, though... it's bothersome to have to drive a forklift into
your living room to position the speakers properly. Tough on the
hardwood floors, and even worse for the carpeting :-)

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HELP:Low-pass filter on frequency counter
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/af7e3957bfd640b5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 10:06 am
From: "caius"

Hi all,
I have to made some measurements with a frequency counter (model VC3165) on
low frequencies (up to 60 Hz) .I know that in case of low frequency
measurements a low-pass filter is needed in order to obtain stable and
precise readings.
My frequency counter has only an AC/DC button (to be used with a low-pass
filter as said in the service manual) but it doesn't have an integrated
low-pass filter (many counters have it).

I built some simple RC filter ( using a resisitor and a capacitor) with
various cut-off frequncy ( I tried 15 Khz and 50 Khz) but I alway obtain
floating and not precise readings on low frequencies.
How can I solve this problem?Maybe using a low-pass filter like these(very
expensive IMHO)?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/AGILENT-HP-10856A-LOW-PASS-FILTER-KIT-5KHz-50KHz-500KHz-/120668081898?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1860ceea

or building a proper one (but as said before simple RC filters didn't work)?

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 10:25 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

A simple RC filter gives only 6dB/8ve rolloff. You probably need something
much sharper, which would require active filters.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 10:44 am
From: "caius"

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ihcj1s$hfc$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>A simple RC filter gives only 6dB/8ve rolloff. You probably need something
> much sharper, which would require active filters.

Ok, thanks, I imagined this.Is it difficult to build an active low-pass
filter (with a 50KHz cut-off frequency)?

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 11:47 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> Ok, thanks, I imagined this. Is it difficult to build an
> active low-pass filter (with a 50KHz cut-off frequency)?

It's easy to design one. But... with such a high cut-off, you'll op amps
with a very high gain-bandwidth product to get a stable filter (ie, one
whose characteristics don't change much with variations in component
values).

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 12:49 pm
From: Fred McKenzie

In article <4d39cb36$0$2048$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it>,
"caius" <briccus@yahoo.it> wrote:

> I have to made some measurements with a frequency counter (model VC3165) on
> low frequencies (up to 60 Hz) .I know that in case of low frequency
> measurements a low-pass filter is needed in order to obtain stable and
> precise readings.

Caius-

Your problem may not be related to high frequencies unless you are
measuring low level, high impedance signals in the presence of high
frequency electromagnetic fields.

One possibility is that you are over-driving the input to the counter.
Using an attenuator may help.

Another possibility is that the signal actually varies in frequency over
time.

Fred

==============================================================================
TOPIC: How to repair an invisible machine from the 23rd century?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e431feeea64c740f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 11:02 am
From: "Pimpom"

Dave Platt wrote:
> In article <ih98r3$5te$1@news.albasani.net>, Pimpom
> <Pimpom@invalid.net> wrote:
>
>> Invisible machine or invisibility machine? There's a
>> difference,
>> you know. The schematics are quite different too. Before you
>> even
>> attempt to repair the former, a quantum interlocuting frammis
>> is
>> absolutely essential.
>
> With left-hand or right-hand circular polarization? The RHCP
> models
> have been very difficult to come by lately...

Best is circumcised polarization.

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