sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Nickel plated polyimide--where to get? - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8bee83d05dbdcb50?hl=en
* HELP:Low-pass filter on frequency counter - 12 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/af7e3957bfd640b5?hl=en
* Cell phone data plan - 2 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8974e71ed0054784?hl=en
* Pet hates ? - 6 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e7925b5c2233e9ec?hl=en
* Reduce power of a microwave oven? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/76e6c7ef368fc8a0?hl=en
* Two phases or not? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0a29a801d6e01e9e?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nickel plated polyimide--where to get?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8bee83d05dbdcb50?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 1:19 pm
From: whit3rd

On Jan 20, 8:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.

So, plate your nickel onto anything you want, then apply/bake the
polyimide as a conformal coating, and etch away the 'anything'
layer?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 7:18 pm
From: Phil Hobbs

whit3rd wrote:
> On Jan 20, 8:32 pm, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
>> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
>> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
>
> So, plate your nickel onto anything you want, then apply/bake the
> polyimide as a conformal coating, and etch away the 'anything'
> layer?

I'm attempting to throw money at the problem, hopefully in the direction
of somebody who's done it many times before. That way I can get on with
the parts I'm not sure will work!

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 7:25 pm
From: Phil Hobbs

Bill Sloman wrote:
> On Jan 21, 5:32 am, Phil Hobbs
> <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
>> I have a partly-baked idea for improving temperature controllers, but it
>> requires a bunch of nickel plated polyimide film--say 3 to 8 mils thick,
>> with 40 microinches of electroless nickel on it.
>>
>> I need to pattern it and then solder to it. Copper is too conductive,
>> which is a pity, since I already have a roll of polyimide with 1/2 oz Cu
>> on it.
>
> Could you do electro-etching to thin the copper down until it was
> resistive enough? You would need to get down from 12.5 micron of
> copper to about 0.03 micron, which would be tricky - since the copper
> isn't going to be a uniform 12.5 micron thick layer to start with,
> you'd probably end up with a network of isolated islands if you tried
> to do it in one hit.
>
> Alternating electro-erosion and electro-polishing might work.
>
> I've been in situations where even a single-atom thick layer of metal
> was too conductive for my purposes, but 40 microinches/ 1 micron of
> nickel would be a good deal more conductive than that.
>
> --
> Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

Copper is not going to work--you need some reasonable thickness to get
continuity. A pity.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal
ElectroOptical Innovations
55 Orchard Rd
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

email: hobbs (atsign) electrooptical (period) net
http://electrooptical.net

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HELP:Low-pass filter on frequency counter
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/af7e3957bfd640b5?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 1:39 pm
From: "Fabio"

"Fred McKenzie" <fmmck@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:fmmck-7261FF.15494021012011@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com...
> In article <4d39cb36$0$2048$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it>,
> "caius" <briccus@yahoo.it> wrote:
> One possibility is that you are over-driving the input to the counter.
> Using an attenuator may help.

My counter has a X20 button attenuaor but form manjla I didn't understand if
it on channel A or B
Anyway if I press down the reading become stable on low frequecies>
> Another possibility is that the signal actually varies in frequency over
> time.

I think not.Because , for example, now I'm measuring the pin5 of the EL4583
(an IC sync separator) , this pin provides vertical sync output.As video
input I'm using a video composite sync, so I should obtain a stable reading
of 60Hz on pin 5 of EL4583.The reading is floating ( goes up and down from
60 to 63 Hz) instaed.

> One possibility is that you are over-driving the input to the counter.
> Using an attenuator may help.

My counter has a X20 button attenuator but from manual I didn't understand
if it's on channel A or B
Anyway if I press down the button the reading become stable on PIN5 of the
EL4583, may it's as you said?.This is the manual:

http://www.emclr.co.uk/productdownloads/prod_45/VC3165%20User%20Manual.pdf

Anyway a friend of mine uses another counter which has a 50KHz low-pass
filter and measuring the PIN5 of the EL4583 the reading is stable with the
low-pass filter switched on:

http://www.tti-test.com/products-tti/pdf-brochure/prec-pfm1300-2p.pdf

From this manual:

"For Input A, a low pass filter with a cut-off frequency of 50kHz is user
selectable to ensure stable readings at low frequencies"

So, I'm bit confused..do I need a low-pass filter or an attenuator to obtain
stable readings on low frequencies using my counter?

== 2 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 1:54 pm
From: "caius"

Sorry for the previous post sent from 'Fabio', by mistake I used another
account form another computer but I'm always 'Caius' the author of the post

== 3 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 2:30 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

caius wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> I have to made some measurements with a frequency counter (model VC3165) on
> low frequencies (up to 60 Hz) .I know that in case of low frequency
> measurements a low-pass filter is needed in order to obtain stable and
> precise readings.
> My frequency counter has only an AC/DC button (to be used with a low-pass
> filter as said in the service manual) but it doesn't have an integrated
> low-pass filter (many counters have it).
>
> I built some simple RC filter ( using a resisitor and a capacitor) with
> various cut-off frequncy ( I tried 15 Khz and 50 Khz) but I alway obtain
> floating and not precise readings on low frequencies.
> How can I solve this problem?Maybe using a low-pass filter like these(very
> expensive IMHO)?:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/AGILENT-HP-10856A-LOW-PASS-FILTER-KIT-5KHz-50KHz-500KHz-/120668081898?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c1860ceea
>
> or building a proper one (but as said before simple RC filters didn't work)?

Time period measurement is more accurate at low frequencies, as it
reduces the timing errors. You measure the time period, then calculate
the reciprocal.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 4 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 2:37 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"caius"

> I have to made some measurements with a frequency counter (model VC3165)
> on low frequencies (up to 60 Hz) .I know that in case of low frequency
> measurements a low-pass filter is needed in order to obtain stable and
> precise readings.
> My frequency counter has only an AC/DC button (to be used with a low-pass
> filter as said in the service manual) but it doesn't have an integrated
> low-pass filter (many counters have it).
>
> I built some simple RC filter ( using a resistor and a capacitor) with
> various cut-off frequency ( I tried 15 Khz and 50 Khz) but I alway obtain
> floating and not precise readings on low frequencies.

** Errr - as you only want to measure 60Hz, why not have a LP filter at say
100Hz ??

A 10kohm resistor and a 0.15uF film cap ought to work - plus keep the input
level down to something the frequency counter likes.

..... Phil

== 5 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 3:04 pm
From: "caius"

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:ZbSdnTlf2LOflKfQnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> Time period measurement is more accurate at low frequencies, as it
> reduces the timing errors. You measure the time period, then calculate
> the reciprocal.

Yes, I have this period function on my counter but I didn't understand how
to use it, if you could help me.

== 6 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 3:26 pm
From: "Dave M"

Fabio wrote:
> "Fred McKenzie" <fmmck@aol.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:fmmck-7261FF.15494021012011@5ad64b5e.bb.sky.com...
>> In article <4d39cb36$0$2048$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it>,
>> "caius" <briccus@yahoo.it> wrote:
>> One possibility is that you are over-driving the input to the
>> counter. Using an attenuator may help.
>
> My counter has a X20 button attenuaor but form manjla I didn't
> understand if it on channel A or B
> Anyway if I press down the reading become stable on low frequecies>
>> Another possibility is that the signal actually varies in frequency
>> over time.
>
> I think not.Because , for example, now I'm measuring the pin5 of the
> EL4583 (an IC sync separator) , this pin provides vertical sync
> output.As video input I'm using a video composite sync, so I should
> obtain a stable reading of 60Hz on pin 5 of EL4583.The reading is
> floating ( goes up and down from 60 to 63 Hz) instaed.
>
>> One possibility is that you are over-driving the input to the
>> counter. Using an attenuator may help.
>
> My counter has a X20 button attenuator but from manual I didn't
> understand if it's on channel A or B
> Anyway if I press down the button the reading become stable on PIN5
> of the EL4583, may it's as you said?.This is the manual:
>
> http://www.emclr.co.uk/productdownloads/prod_45/VC3165%20User%20Manual.pdf
>
> Anyway a friend of mine uses another counter which has a 50KHz
> low-pass filter and measuring the PIN5 of the EL4583 the reading is
> stable with the low-pass filter switched on:
>
> http://www.tti-test.com/products-tti/pdf-brochure/prec-pfm1300-2p.pdf
>
> From this manual:
>
> "For Input A, a low pass filter with a cut-off frequency of 50kHz is
> user selectable to ensure stable readings at low frequencies"
>
> So, I'm bit confused..do I need a low-pass filter or an attenuator to
> obtain stable readings on low frequencies using my counter?

From the spec sheet that you posted on your counter, the X20 button is not a
filter; it's an attenuator. The description says that channel B has an
attenuator (X1,X20), & AC/DC coupling for a low-pass filter. It attenuates
the signal from the B input (selected by the function switch) by a factor of
20. According to the table at the top of the page, in order to measure
frequencies below 100Hz, you should be using DC coupling. AC coupling is
really a high-pass filter, which, from the table, attenuates frequencies
below 100Hz.
Which input are you using to measure your 60Hz sync signal? If you're tring
to use the B input, of the A input with the Function set to the 2-50MHz
range, then it's no wonder that you're getting erratic readings. It's a
wonder that you're getting any reading at all.

From the specs on the channel A input, you should be OK to measure a high
level signal (up to 30VP-P. The fact that your reading is varying from
60-63 HZ, that would indicate that your signal is mixing, or being
overwhelmed by mains coupling. Try isolating the counter's ground from the
power line. That brings another question... Where are you connecting the
counter's signal ground? Are you relying on the power line ground for the
connection? If so, that's a very bad idea. Use a scope probe or shielded
cable, and connect the probe's shield to the signal ground of the circuit
that you're testing.
I really doubt that a low-pass filter is going to help you here, unless the
signal is not clean, that is, has a lot of noise riding on it.
How clean is the power supply that is powering the circuit under test? If
it has a lot of ripple, that could explain your erratic readings. Make sure
the Vcc rail is clean from ripple and noise.
--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

== 7 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 3:27 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

caius wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:ZbSdnTlf2LOflKfQnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> > Time period measurement is more accurate at low frequencies, as it
> > reduces the timing errors. You measure the time period, then calculate
> > the reciprocal.
>
> Yes, I have this period function on my counter but I didn't understand how
> to use it, if you could help me.

Download this manual. It is for a '60s HP 5245L, but it has good
desriptions on how varous functions work, and how to use them. Period
measurment starts on page 22. Then ask any questions you still have and
I'll try to help you. It is a scan of an old printed manaul, so I can't
copy the text for you. It is a 16.1 MB file of the 1973 version of that
manual.

<http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/05245-9044.pdf>

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 8 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 3:30 pm
From: "caius"

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:8pug4kFs56U1@mid.individual.net...
> ** Errr - as you only want to measure 60Hz, why not have a LP filter at
say
> 100Hz ??
>
> A 10kohm resistor and a 0.15uF film cap ought to work -

Ok, but where exactly i have to put this low-pass filter?In the circuit to
be measured (before the input) or between the counter and the probe?The
circuit is this:
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8206/snap1nx.jpg

R3 and C2 in this circuit should be a simple RC circuit, right?

>plus keep the input
> level down to something the frequency counter likes.

Did you mean the input impedance?According to the manual of my counter,
Channel A has 1Mohm of input impedance.How can measure it on the circuit?

== 9 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 3:41 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"caius"
> "Phil Allison"
> > ** Errr - as you only want to measure 60Hz, why not have a LP filter at
> say 100Hz ??
>>
>> A 10kohm resistor and a 0.15uF film cap ought to work -
>
> Ok, but where exactly i have to put this low-pass filter?In the circuit to
> be measured (before the input) or between the counter and the probe?

** Your are obviously a babe in the woods.

The RC filter goes at the *input* to the counter.

A counter is a dumb animal that tries to count whatever you feed it - so
if you expect to see a stable reading then make sure you are feeding it a
stable SINGLE frequency.

Any signal that contains harmonics of the fundamental or hum or noise is bad
news.

Look at the signal on a scope.

You have one of them - right ??

> >plus keep the input
>> level down to something the frequency counter likes.
>
> Did you mean the input impedance?

** So you have no idea of the difference between " input level" and
"input impedance" ??

The woods is a dangerous place for you - pal.

..... Phil

== 10 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 3:50 pm
From: "caius"

"Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:wOOdnXELXJK6i6fQnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> From the spec sheet that you posted on your counter, the X20 button is not
> a filter; it's an attenuator. The description says that channel B has an
> attenuator (X1,X20), & AC/DC coupling for a low-pass filter. It
> attenuates the signal from the B input (selected by the function switch)
> by a factor of 20. According to the table at the top of the page, in
> order to measure frequencies below 100Hz, you should be using DC coupling.
> AC coupling is really a high-pass filter, which, from the table,
> attenuates frequencies below 100Hz.
> Which input are you using to measure your 60Hz sync signal? If you're
> tring to use the B input, of the A input with the Function set to the
> 2-50MHz range, then it's no wonder that you're getting erratic readings.
> It's a wonder that you're getting any reading at all.

According to the table, for measuring 60Hz I'm using the Channel A (from
0.01Hz to 50 MHz) with step 3 and DC coupling pressed
>
> From the specs on the channel A input, you should be OK to measure a high
> level signal (up to 30VP-P. The fact that your reading is varying from
> 60-63 HZ, that would indicate that your signal is mixing, or being
> overwhelmed by mains coupling. Try isolating the counter's ground from
> the power line. That brings another question... Where are you connecting
> the counter's signal ground? Are you relying on the power line ground for
> the connection? If so, that's a very bad idea. Use a scope probe or
> shielded cable, and connect the probe's shield to the signal ground of the
> circuit that you're testing.

Yes, I'm connecting the counter ground alligator clip to the ground of the
power supply (from which the circuit gets power and ground also).So signal
ground of the circuit is the same of the power supply.Is it wrong?

> I really doubt that a low-pass filter is going to help you here, unless
> the signal is not clean, that is, has a lot of noise riding on it.
> How clean is the power supply that is powering the circuit under test? If
> it has a lot of ripple, that could explain your erratic readings. Make
> sure the Vcc rail is clean from ripple and noise.

Excuse me the ignorance but how can I verify this?I have no scilloscope...
> --
> David
> dgminala at mediacombb dot net
>
>
>

== 11 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 4:24 pm
From: "Dave M"

caius wrote:
> "Dave M" <dgminala4444@mediacombb.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:wOOdnXELXJK6i6fQnZ2dnUVZ_u2dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> From the spec sheet that you posted on your counter, the X20 button
>> is not a filter; it's an attenuator. The description says that
>> channel B has an attenuator (X1,X20), & AC/DC coupling for a
>> low-pass filter. It attenuates the signal from the B input
>> (selected by the function switch) by a factor of 20. According to
>> the table at the top of the page, in order to measure frequencies
>> below 100Hz, you should be using DC coupling. AC coupling is really
>> a high-pass filter, which, from the table, attenuates frequencies
>> below 100Hz. Which input are you using to measure your 60Hz sync signal?
>> If
>> you're tring to use the B input, of the A input with the Function
>> set to the 2-50MHz range, then it's no wonder that you're getting
>> erratic readings. It's a wonder that you're getting any reading at
>> all.
>
>
> According to the table, for measuring 60Hz I'm using the Channel A
> (from 0.01Hz to 50 MHz) with step 3 and DC coupling pressed
>>
>> From the specs on the channel A input, you should be OK to measure a
>> high level signal (up to 30VP-P. The fact that your reading is
>> varying from 60-63 HZ, that would indicate that your signal is
>> mixing, or being overwhelmed by mains coupling. Try isolating the
>> counter's ground from the power line. That brings another
>> question... Where are you connecting the counter's signal ground? Are
>> you relying on the power line ground for the connection? If so,
>> that's a very bad idea. Use a scope probe or shielded cable, and
>> connect the probe's shield to the signal ground of the circuit that
>> you're testing.
>
> Yes, I'm connecting the counter ground alligator clip to the ground
> of the power supply (from which the circuit gets power and ground
> also).So signal ground of the circuit is the same of the power
> supply.Is it wrong?
>> I really doubt that a low-pass filter is going to help you here,
>> unless the signal is not clean, that is, has a lot of noise riding
>> on it. How clean is the power supply that is powering the circuit under
>> test? If it has a lot of ripple, that could explain your erratic
>> readings. Make sure the Vcc rail is clean from ripple and noise.
>
> Excuse me the ignorance but how can I verify this?I have no
> scilloscope...

Then you're shooting in the dark. In order to effectively troubleshoot this
type of problem, you need the right equipment. At this point, I'd suggest
that you Google for a PC sound card scope, There are a couple freebies on
the internet that you can download. Bear in mind that they're very basic,
uncalibrated, and low frequency (audio) response. An example is at
http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/osc251.zip.
Do you have any friends, neighbors or relatives that can help?
Your responses to other postings indicate that you're a novice in the world
of electronics. You really need to learn more of the basics in order to
understand the intracies of dealing with measuring and evaluating complex
signals using basic test equipment.
Google the net for tutorials on basics of circuit theory, using basic test
equipment, evaluating waveforms, etc.

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

== 12 of 12 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 5:45 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 1/21/2011 3:30 PM caius spake thus:

> "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> ha scritto nel messaggio
> news:8pug4kFs56U1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> plus keep the input level down to something the frequency counter
>> likes.
>
> Did you mean the input impedance?According to the manual of my counter,
> Channel A has 1Mohm of input impedance.How can measure it on the circuit?

Input level = input *voltage*. Forget about impedance (for the time being).

And beware Phil: he can be dangerous (or at least appear to be) if he's
off his meds and you somehow offend him ...

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Cell phone data plan
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8974e71ed0054784?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 2:24 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Lab1 wrote:
>
> On 1/21/2011 9:17 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> >>> If I have cell phone usb stick for wireless data connection can I use
> >>> Magic Jack phone service on my notebook?
> >>
> >> I don't see why not. If you can use Skype you can use Magic Jack as they
> >> are pretty close to the same technology less Magic Jacks DTMF telephone
> >> interface.
> >
> > Have you ever used a Magic Jack? The audio is clear, but there is a
> > lot of latency.
>
> Yes, my dad has one. He is on high speed cable internet and I didn't
> notice very much latency with his setup. This was about 2 years ago and
> MJ wasn't nearly as popular as it is today. He doesn't use it much
> because he always has a cell phone. I wonder if whatever MJ uses to
> connect to the telco's is bogged down now?

I only use it for a backup becasue of the latency problems. I have
between 7 and 10 Mb/s data rate downstream and 1.5 to 2.5 upstream.
I've had it about three months. Also, I'm not sure if it can handle the
QPSK modulation.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 2:25 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Lab1 wrote:
>
> On 1/21/2011 9:17 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> >>> If I have cell phone usb stick for wireless data connection can I use
> >>> Magic Jack phone service on my notebook?
> >>
> >> I don't see why not. If you can use Skype you can use Magic Jack as they
> >> are pretty close to the same technology less Magic Jacks DTMF telephone
> >> interface.
> >
> > Have you ever used a Magic Jack? The audio is clear, but there is a
> > lot of latency.
>
> Yes, my dad has one. He is on high speed cable internet and I didn't
> notice very much latency with his setup. This was about 2 years ago and
> MJ wasn't nearly as popular as it is today. He doesn't use it much
> because he always has a cell phone. I wonder if whatever MJ uses to
> connect to the telco's is bogged down now?

One other problem: Magic Jack installs some software on a PC the
first time you use it. It may not work with a cell phone.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pet hates ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e7925b5c2233e9ec?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 5:41 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:ih9d1s$o32$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> It's hard /not/ to interpret such a description as an intentional
>>> insult. I can't imagine what it actually means -- in any innocuous
>>> sense, anyway.
>
>> There ya go then!
>
> Please don't semi-quote Ronald Reagan. It's not becoming.

I'm afraid that's just too 'in-American' for me. I actually haven't a clue
what you are talking about ...

>
> If I'd been in a debate with Ronnie, and he'd pulled that "There you go,
> again" crap with me, I would have ripped him a new one, even if it cost me
> the election.

And again - I'm afraid that's just too 'in-American' for me. I actually
haven't a clue what you are talking about ...

>
> (This is way OT, but remember last year when Barney Frank ripped into a
> stupid woman who was griping about Obama being Moslem? I was proud to be
> queer. If all politicians -- conservative or liberal -- were that
> intelligent and quick witted, the level of political discourse in this
> country would be at a much higher level.)

And again - I'm afraid that's just too 'in-American' for me. I actually
haven't a clue what you are talking about ...

>
>
>> Anyone from the UK would see it as a quick-fire throw-away
>> line, and would laugh at it. It's sort of intended to be 'barbed',
>> but not in a malicious way. It's a very hard to describe form
>> of humour that is quite prevalent over here.
>
> I admire someone who can come up with quick throw-aways -- but unless they
> make them all the time, it's hard to tell they're supposed to be humorous.

Not at all. As I said before, over here it works between people who don't
know each other, provided that the circumstances of their encounter are
correct. The whole point that I was making, and which you seem to have
missed, is that I now know that that isn't the case, when it's cross-culture
between the UK and the U.S. That's why you, like the original guy 25 years
ago, see it as being offensive, I guess.

>
> I offended people with "innocuous" wisecracks so many times that I
> gradually
> became careful about what I said. A word to the wise...?

Not needed. As I said in the first place, this was a long time ago when I
was much younger, and my first encounters with Americans were on the
telephone rather than face to face, and before I had the slightest
understanding of what subtle cultural differences were, as opposed to the
'obvious' ones that I had encountered up to that point, which involved other
European countries with a different language, vastly different food, a
totally different outlook on life, and so on.

>
> If you cut yourself on barbed wire -- you're cut, regardless of how you
> came
> in contact with the wire.
>

Hmmm. Not sure that I really understand the under-meaning of that one,
either ...

Arfa

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 5:43 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Chuck" <ch@deja.net> wrote in message
news:f6ggj651ckeefgqjubs79cm9uvnq172l00@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:00:17 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
> <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:ih744h$odu$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> Lab1 <.@...> wrote in message
>>> news:ih6ugq$mee$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>>>> On 1/19/2011 9:54 AM, N_Cook wrote:
>>>> > Great dollops of that white goo between metal to metal thermally
>>> conductive
>>>> > surfaces. Heatsink to metal casing in amplifiers etc. I'm not sure
>>>> > why
>>> it is
>>>> > even necessary with perhaps 20 square inches of contact and bolts
>>> between. I
>>>> > always wipe away with paper etc on first parting but always some gets
>>>> > on
>>> my
>>>> > clothing - I've not worn white lab coats for many a year.
>>>>
>>>> Heat sink compound is usually very necessary.
>>>>
>>>> One of my pet hates is torx screws with a pin in the center.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The harware that I always have problems with in the UK , never organised
>>> a
>>> stock of, is UNF and UNC nuts and bolts for USA kit. And of course,vice
>>> versa, repairers in USA never have metric (and lesser extent BA) for UK
>>> and
>>> Japanese kit
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I once got in a lot of trouble with my boss when I was young and worked
>>for
>>a U.S. based company. At that time, I didn't understand that there was a
>>big
>>difference between British 'tongue-in-cheek' humour, and the much more
>>direct U.S. type. I was talking on the phone to one of the designers of a
>>piece of equipment that we sold here in the UK, and asked the guy if he
>>could arrange to send me some screws for the cabinet, as they were a
>>thread
>>that we didn't readily get over here. He asked if I knew exactly what size
>>they were so I replied, quick as a flash, thinking that I was being funny,
>>"I guess that they are round about 3/16ths APF." "What's APF ?" the guy
>>asked. "American Piss Fit", said I ...
>>
>>Stony silence on the phone. Half an hour later, I was summoned to the
>>boss's
>>office. Apparently, the guy had been really offended by this, thinking
>>that
>>it was a slur on what he considered to be good American engineering, and
>>had
>>called my boss to complain about me. Just goes to show how easily offence
>>can be caused between nations, even when they speak what's basically the
>>same language ... :-)
>>
>>Arfa
>
>
> I think it matters in what part of the U.S. this person resided. I'm
> originally from the North East and humor that would be considered mild
> there is considered a great affront to some people in the South.
> However, racist remarks, that I find offensive, don't seem to bother
> their delicate constitutions. Chuck

He was in sunny Caffy-lornia ... Costa Mesa in Orange County, a few miles
down the Interstate from LA

Arfa

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 5:48 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Dave Plowman (News)" <dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:519901728bdave@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article <ihbg6q$ot5$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
> N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote:
>> Last time I talked to him, late 2010, he mentioned he was starting a
>> range of "classic car" nuts and bolts , whatever that is, cannot find
>> mention on his site though
>
> In the UK, modern cars use metric threads. Ones from about after WW2 to
> the '80s mainly UNF and UNC. Pre WW2 BSW and BSF. BA was common for
> electrical stuff.
>
> A classic car is really just any which isn't recent and not defined under
> the strict headings of vintage etc. It isn't restricted to any make - just
> over 20 years old. Although that age isn't agreed by everyone.
>
> --
> *Work like you don't need the money. Love like you've never been hurt.
>
> Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
> To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I seem to recall from my early days of car tinkering in the 70's and 80's ,
that most of my spanners and my socket sets, were Whitworth and AF ?? That
would have been for Morris Minors, Vauxhalls of all sorts including HA, HB
and HC Vivas, a VX4/90 or two, and assorted Fords including Escorts and
Cortinas and Sierras.

Arfa

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 5:50 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:4d381c8b$0$19215$c3e8da3$aae71a0a@news.astraweb.com...
> Packing peanuts.
>
> Probe slips.
>
> People begging me to work on stuff which I used to turn away, but now have
> to take in because business is slow.
>
> Mark Z.

Yep. Amen to that one ...

Arfa

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 6:02 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

Arfa Daily wrote:
>
> "Chuck" <ch@deja.net> wrote in message
> news:f6ggj651ckeefgqjubs79cm9uvnq172l00@4ax.com...
> > On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:00:17 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
> > <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:ih744h$odu$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> Lab1 <.@...> wrote in message
> >>> news:ih6ugq$mee$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>>> On 1/19/2011 9:54 AM, N_Cook wrote:
> >>>> > Great dollops of that white goo between metal to metal thermally
> >>> conductive
> >>>> > surfaces. Heatsink to metal casing in amplifiers etc. I'm not sure
> >>>> > why
> >>> it is
> >>>> > even necessary with perhaps 20 square inches of contact and bolts
> >>> between. I
> >>>> > always wipe away with paper etc on first parting but always some gets
> >>>> > on
> >>> my
> >>>> > clothing - I've not worn white lab coats for many a year.
> >>>>
> >>>> Heat sink compound is usually very necessary.
> >>>>
> >>>> One of my pet hates is torx screws with a pin in the center.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The harware that I always have problems with in the UK , never organised
> >>> a
> >>> stock of, is UNF and UNC nuts and bolts for USA kit. And of course,vice
> >>> versa, repairers in USA never have metric (and lesser extent BA) for UK
> >>> and
> >>> Japanese kit
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>I once got in a lot of trouble with my boss when I was young and worked
> >>for
> >>a U.S. based company. At that time, I didn't understand that there was a
> >>big
> >>difference between British 'tongue-in-cheek' humour, and the much more
> >>direct U.S. type. I was talking on the phone to one of the designers of a
> >>piece of equipment that we sold here in the UK, and asked the guy if he
> >>could arrange to send me some screws for the cabinet, as they were a
> >>thread
> >>that we didn't readily get over here. He asked if I knew exactly what size
> >>they were so I replied, quick as a flash, thinking that I was being funny,
> >>"I guess that they are round about 3/16ths APF." "What's APF ?" the guy
> >>asked. "American Piss Fit", said I ...
> >>
> >>Stony silence on the phone. Half an hour later, I was summoned to the
> >>boss's
> >>office. Apparently, the guy had been really offended by this, thinking
> >>that
> >>it was a slur on what he considered to be good American engineering, and
> >>had
> >>called my boss to complain about me. Just goes to show how easily offence
> >>can be caused between nations, even when they speak what's basically the
> >>same language ... :-)
> >>
> >>Arfa
> >
> >
> > I think it matters in what part of the U.S. this person resided. I'm
> > originally from the North East and humor that would be considered mild
> > there is considered a great affront to some people in the South.
> > However, racist remarks, that I find offensive, don't seem to bother
> > their delicate constitutions. Chuck
>
> He was in sunny Caffy-lornia ... Costa Mesa in Orange County, a few miles
> down the Interstate from LA

AKA: The land of Fruits and Nuts! ;-)

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 6:05 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:O-SdnUSCo8VTp6fQnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> Arfa Daily wrote:
>>
>> "Chuck" <ch@deja.net> wrote in message
>> news:f6ggj651ckeefgqjubs79cm9uvnq172l00@4ax.com...
>> > On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 18:00:17 -0000, "Arfa Daily"
>> > <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
>> >>news:ih744h$odu$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> >>> Lab1 <.@...> wrote in message
>> >>> news:ih6ugq$mee$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> >>>> On 1/19/2011 9:54 AM, N_Cook wrote:
>> >>>> > Great dollops of that white goo between metal to metal thermally
>> >>> conductive
>> >>>> > surfaces. Heatsink to metal casing in amplifiers etc. I'm not sure
>> >>>> > why
>> >>> it is
>> >>>> > even necessary with perhaps 20 square inches of contact and bolts
>> >>> between. I
>> >>>> > always wipe away with paper etc on first parting but always some
>> >>>> > gets
>> >>>> > on
>> >>> my
>> >>>> > clothing - I've not worn white lab coats for many a year.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Heat sink compound is usually very necessary.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> One of my pet hates is torx screws with a pin in the center.
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> The harware that I always have problems with in the UK , never
>> >>> organised
>> >>> a
>> >>> stock of, is UNF and UNC nuts and bolts for USA kit. And of
>> >>> course,vice
>> >>> versa, repairers in USA never have metric (and lesser extent BA) for
>> >>> UK
>> >>> and
>> >>> Japanese kit
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>I once got in a lot of trouble with my boss when I was young and worked
>> >>for
>> >>a U.S. based company. At that time, I didn't understand that there was
>> >>a
>> >>big
>> >>difference between British 'tongue-in-cheek' humour, and the much more
>> >>direct U.S. type. I was talking on the phone to one of the designers of
>> >>a
>> >>piece of equipment that we sold here in the UK, and asked the guy if he
>> >>could arrange to send me some screws for the cabinet, as they were a
>> >>thread
>> >>that we didn't readily get over here. He asked if I knew exactly what
>> >>size
>> >>they were so I replied, quick as a flash, thinking that I was being
>> >>funny,
>> >>"I guess that they are round about 3/16ths APF." "What's APF ?" the
>> >>guy
>> >>asked. "American Piss Fit", said I ...
>> >>
>> >>Stony silence on the phone. Half an hour later, I was summoned to the
>> >>boss's
>> >>office. Apparently, the guy had been really offended by this, thinking
>> >>that
>> >>it was a slur on what he considered to be good American engineering,
>> >>and
>> >>had
>> >>called my boss to complain about me. Just goes to show how easily
>> >>offence
>> >>can be caused between nations, even when they speak what's basically
>> >>the
>> >>same language ... :-)
>> >>
>> >>Arfa
>> >
>> >
>> > I think it matters in what part of the U.S. this person resided. I'm
>> > originally from the North East and humor that would be considered mild
>> > there is considered a great affront to some people in the South.
>> > However, racist remarks, that I find offensive, don't seem to bother
>> > their delicate constitutions. Chuck
>>
>> He was in sunny Caffy-lornia ... Costa Mesa in Orange County, a few
>> miles
>> down the Interstate from LA
>
>
> AKA: The land of Fruits and Nuts! ;-)

Now now, Michael - that's no way to talk about that nice Mr Lieberman ....
:-)

Arfa

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Reduce power of a microwave oven?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/76e6c7ef368fc8a0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 6:02 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4d388c93$0$24073$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...
> On 1/20/2011 4:44 AM Michael A. Terrell spake thus:
>
>> mike wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, that's what I had in mind. All you need is a switch that can
>>> handle that much volts safely...and maybe some means to make sure
>>> that switching a charged cap doesn't explode the diode or the switch.
>>>
>>> Some months ago, I had to replace the diode in my old one.
>>> Hooked a resistor to a couple of clip leads and hooked them to the cap.
>>> I never did find any of the resistor pieces. May have gotten swept up
>>> when I cleaned up the puddle I made. ;-)
>>
>> You exceeded the maximum voltage rating of that resistor.
>
> Gee, ya think?
>
> Another incredibly useful 1-line post from the shoot-from-the-hip master
> ...
>
>

Actually, I think that it is quite a useful comment, as in my experience in
the electronics service business, many techs - particularly modern ones -
have no understanding that a resistor has a maximum working voltage rating,
and have even laughed at the very idea when I have suggested it to them,
until I have shown them in a component catalogue. I'm willing to bet that
prior to this exchange, there were more than a few reading what Michael
said, and doing just that ...

Arfa

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Two phases or not?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0a29a801d6e01e9e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Fri, Jan 21 2011 6:09 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

I'm posting this to try to settle an argument going on in another
newsgroup (alt.home.repair) about phases in electrical power.

Over there, someone posted a question about GFCI breakers that morphed
into a discussion of multiphase electrical power. A disagreement arose
thereafter about whether a center-tapped transformer actually delivers
two separate phases of electricity or not. I'd like to get opinions
here, since at least some folks here have engineering backgrounds: over
there (a.h.r.), not so much. People there tend to be more electrician
types, rather than EEs and such.

The discussion started with a mention of 2-phase power. Turns out that
in the world of electrical power, this has a specific meaning. It refers
to a now-obsolete system of generating power in 2 phases that were 90°
apart, and was used at Niagara Falls:

http://www.3phasepower.org/2phasesystems.htm

And of course there's 3-phase power, widely used today.

The problem is this: several people, myself included, contend that the
two "legs" of power produced by a center-tapped transformer do, in fact,
constitute two separate phases of power, 180° apart. (This is how
household power is delivered in North America, with a step-down xfmr at
the power pole delivering 240 volts in the form of 120-0-120.)

Now it's true that in the electrical industry, this is called
"split-phase" power, and if you tried to tell the guy behind the counter
at the electrical supply house that it's 2-phase, he'd look at you funny.

However, I (and others) say that this is, in fact, true 2-phase power,
even if it's not called that. It just happens to be trivially easy to
generate it from a single phase, as it only involves inversion. (Unlike
3-phase, which requires rotary converters or electronic devices to
generate from single-phase power.)

Take, for example, any push-pull amplifier with a phase inverter or
phase splitter in front of it: it generates two separate phases out of a
single phase.

So, what do y'all say?

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

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