sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* possible problem with Sony flat-face WEGA - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8fc4ce0a3ea9ba13?hl=en
* Laptop not charging. - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3f52116e8141f1a4?hl=en
* Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor? - 7 messages, 3
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/ce6c11f1c7a190bf?hl=en
* Quest du jour- seeking T1.25 wire base blue tinted bulbs. - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a26e1506f0b6d44b?hl=en
* Yamaha EMX5016 mixer amp from 2006 - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/bc288deddd9278ea?hl=en
* Pet hates ? - 5 messages, 4 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e7925b5c2233e9ec?hl=en
* motherboard pwr_on pins resistance? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/65d60dc1b24d5107?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: possible problem with Sony flat-face WEGA
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8fc4ce0a3ea9ba13?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 2:15 pm
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> If they use DC on the filament, check for a bad electrolyytic
> in its power supply. I used to add a filament transformer to
> series string TV sets with a dropping diode to power an 84
> volt string of filaments. They barely lasted a year from new,
> without the modification.

Well, this set's over 10 years old. I'll pull out the service manual and
give it a look.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Laptop not charging.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3f52116e8141f1a4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 2:33 pm
From: T i m

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:11:57 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow
<mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>The 3rd pin on a traditional Dell 19vdc 4500mah is a dummy.

The plot thickens!

> I'm using one
>on an Asus laptop that had the same requirements.

I'd have to say once I've checked the plug / socket fit, polarity and
current rating I have also done a bit of mix-n-match with no ill
effects (that I know of course).

>Only thing you need to
>watch is using an underrated PSU as you probably will overtax it.

Daughters old Dell Latitude D520 came to me with a genuine Dell PSU
but possibly the lower rated one of the two (65W V 90W etc?). Wouldn't
these power supplies be current limited to their maximum continuous
rated output so apart from it running hot, shouldn't put them outside
their design parameters?

Wouldn't less current being available at the charger just mean the
laptop takes longer to charge, or not power the laptop and a dock and
an aux battery etc?

> Having
>more power capacity isn't an issue for obvious reasons.

Indeed and would be my preferred scenario.

>I'm also using an
>HP 19vdc supply on a Toshiby. All these have similar CPU configurations
>and requirements within +- 10%.

Daughters D520 stopped charging the main battery but seems to still
charge the aux battery (in the CD bay) ok.

So, I picked up another battery that seems to power the thing ok but
still isn't charging, presumably pointing to the charger or charging
circuitry in the laptop itself (that charger was supporting both
batteries for a year or so).

I have ordered a Targus universal (90W) charger in any case (for
general use) so can use that to see if it's the charger at least (data
pins permitting etc). ;-(

Cheers, T i m

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 2:44 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:33:44 +0000, T i m wrote:

> On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:11:57 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow <mhywatt@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>The 3rd pin on a traditional Dell 19vdc 4500mah is a dummy.
>
> The plot thickens!
>
>> I'm using one
>>on an Asus laptop that had the same requirements.
>
> I'd have to say once I've checked the plug / socket fit, polarity and
> current rating I have also done a bit of mix-n-match with no ill effects
> (that I know of course).
>
>>Only thing you need to
>>watch is using an underrated PSU as you probably will overtax it.
>
> Daughters old Dell Latitude D520 came to me with a genuine Dell PSU but
> possibly the lower rated one of the two (65W V 90W etc?). Wouldn't these
> power supplies be current limited to their maximum continuous rated
> output so apart from it running hot, shouldn't put them outside their
> design parameters?
>
> Wouldn't less current being available at the charger just mean the
> laptop takes longer to charge, or not power the laptop and a dock and an
> aux battery etc?
>
>> Having
>>more power capacity isn't an issue for obvious reasons.
>
> Indeed and would be my preferred scenario.
>
>>I'm also using an
>>HP 19vdc supply on a Toshiby. All these have similar CPU configurations
>>and requirements within +- 10%.
>
> Daughters D520 stopped charging the main battery but seems to still
> charge the aux battery (in the CD bay) ok.
>
> So, I picked up another battery that seems to power the thing ok but
> still isn't charging, presumably pointing to the charger or charging
> circuitry in the laptop itself (that charger was supporting both
> batteries for a year or so).
>
> I have ordered a Targus universal (90W) charger in any case (for general
> use) so can use that to see if it's the charger at least (data pins
> permitting etc). ;-(
>
> Cheers, T i m

I don't know for absolute certainty since I've never pushed the envelope
but an underrated laptop PSU is going to work harder than it is designed
to. This rationally leads to a premature failure. Consider the analogy of
an underrated PSU in a desktop computer similar.

--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 3:15 pm
From: T i m

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:44:35 +0000 (UTC), Meat Plow
<mhywatt@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>
>> Wouldn't less current being available at the charger just mean the
>> laptop takes longer to charge, or not power the laptop and a dock and an
>> aux battery etc?
>>
>
>I don't know for absolute certainty since I've never pushed the envelope
>but an underrated laptop PSU is going to work harder than it is designed
>to.

That's the bit I'm unsure on. Ok $100 question could be 'are they
short cct protected? Something that limits it's output to a design
maximum can't theoretically be 'overloaded' can it?

> This rationally leads to a premature failure.

Whilst I'm sure you are right in many things I'm not (yet) sure it's
always the case with all these things. ;-)

> Consider the analogy of
>an underrated PSU in a desktop computer similar.

Other than the load on a desktop PSU is a direct thing whereas the
load on a laptop PSU may depend on what it's doing at the time. ie,
Charging and running, or just running etc. I have noticed that on many
battery powered devices it often says it will take longer to charge
the battery if the device is turned on at the time. Is this down to
the heat of running the device /and/ charging the battery or the fact
the chargers can't generally do both to full power?

As I said, I'm not advocating an underrated PSU for anything, just
that there could be 'nearly enough to do it all and cope ok', 'enough
to do it all' and 'more than enough' (and let's hope there aren't any
shorts on here). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Daughters (technically) 'smaller than it could take' PSU only
ever runs warm. The one powering our TV runs much hotter.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/ce6c11f1c7a190bf?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 2:43 pm
From: "tm"

"Fred" <nobody@home.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9E7E9CF2166DFnobodyhomecom@74.209.131.13...
> mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> wrote in
> news:162bk6l0qi1ch7st69ish5urh344qpkacb@4ax.com:
>
>> Is it possible to repair a whole house surge suppressor?
>>
>> At 100 to 200 dollars, I don't want to keep buying new ones.
>>
>
> Totally unnecessary. Call your power company about every other year and
> file a report that your lights are blinking when the wind blows. They'll
> send out a service truck to investigate with a guy we don't pay anywhere
> near enough to risk his life working around the 23KV primary on the pole.
> Ask him to check your house's connections at the pole for tightness,
> paying special attention to the NEUTRAL connections, which are the ONLY
> way your 120VAC can surge up to 240VAC if neutral comes loose and there's
> a big load on the OTHER phase from the one your computer is on. While
> he's there, ask him to inspect the grounding on your meter base and
> verify its lightning gap hasn't been damaged by any hits. It's inside
> the meter base and he's the only one with a replacement seal to install.
>
> Please consider offering these great lineman a refreshing beverage to say
> thank you for the free service they provide you. I usually show up with
> a cold Coke for each of them as they are nesting the bucket and stowing
> their HV gloves. I'm more of a shock to them than anything the
> generators can produce....(c;] If it's quitting time when they finish, I
> move from Coke to a quality beer as they've had a hard shift in the hot
> sun. Guess who's power gets restored FIRST after the next storm!....(c;]
>
>
> If your house if FIRMLY attached to the pole transformer, "surges" are
> virtually impossible UNLESS you get hit by lightning. NO surge
> protector, no matter how expensive, says anything about LIGHTNING
> PROTECTOR, ever. That would be a lie. The 23KV primary phase of
> America's 3 phase Tesla multiphase AC power system is quite stable. The
> natural magnetic hysteresis of the 60 hz core in your distribution
> transformer prevents any pulses from being sent to your house until the
> lightning protector in its primary fuse holder explodes in defeat.
>
> "Surge Protector" is a great sales gimmick. If you want to save your
> computer, buy it a nice UPS to protect it from LOSING power, especially
> during disk write operations where you can lose EVERYTHING on that drive.
>
> If you're intent on spending money, please consider replacing your
> breaker panel breakers on all electrical outlets and appliances with GFI
> breakers, making it much less possible to kill a child sticking a metal
> object into America's absurdly designed bladed receptacles designed in
> 1900. The only way to get shocked after their installation is to get
> right across the powerline from hot to neutral, which rarely happens to
> kill anyone. I support GFI installation 100%!

I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.

As to the "free" service, that is not true. We pay for the service in the
distribution fees on
the electric bill. So it's the same as "free health care".

As to the service guys getting paid what they deserve, that's between them
and the
utility. I would offer them a well deserved chilly also.

tm

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 3:10 pm
From: Jeffrey Angus

On 1/31/2011 12:13 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> The "parallel" components (such as MOVs) in a surge suppressor will have
> some effect on every other parallel line (lines connected to the same
> phase). It doesn't matter whether any device is attached to the suppressor,
> or is turned on.
>
>

Sigh.... NO.

Parallel though they may be, they really only protect things
that are "beyond" (or very close) to them. Other branches
have enough series impedance as far as transients are concerned
to deliver on hell of a spike regardless of what a MOV is doing
50-100' of wiring away

Jeff

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 4:31 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

tm wrote:
>
> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.

No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
the US to use a GFCI to power either.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 8:06 pm
From: "tm"

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> tm wrote:
>>
>> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
>
>
> No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
> seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>
>
> --

So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
anyway.

tm

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:10 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

tm wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> >
> > tm wrote:
> >>
> >> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
> >
> >
> > No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> > freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I haven't
> > seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> > the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>
> So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
> anyway.

A GFCI won't protect a kid from sticking something into an outlet and
killing themselves if they are across line & neutral.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:35 pm
From: "tm"

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:HZydnd9wZo9aCNrQnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> tm wrote:
>>
>> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>> news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>> >
>> > tm wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
>> >
>> >
>> > No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
>> > freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I
>> > haven't
>> > seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
>> > the US to use a GFCI to power either.
>>
>> So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
>> anyway.
>
>
> A GFCI won't protect a kid from sticking something into an outlet and
> killing themselves if they are across line & neutral.
>
>

A young child will usually not be dexterous enough to simultaneously stick a
bare metal object into both line and neutral. Even if they do, the main
current
path will not be through the chest. They most likely stick a metal object
into
the line terminal while sitting on the floor and get the current through the
body.
The GFI device will trip under those conditions doing exactly what they were
designed for.

But it's really your choice how safe you want the environment for your young
kids.

But you know this and are only looking for a pissing contest.

tm

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 9:46 pm
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

tm wrote:
>
> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:HZydnd9wZo9aCNrQnZ2dnUVZ_rKdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> >
> > tm wrote:
> >>
> >> "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> >> news:w56dnXFlDNzhydrQnZ2dnUVZ_smdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
> >> >
> >> > tm wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I agree with the GFI protection on all household outlets. Good idea.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > No, it isn't. You can get nuisance trips on refrigerators and
> >> > freezers. They have grounded cords and they don't need GFCI. I
> >> > haven't
> >> > seen a new copy of the NEC lately, but I was told it is against code in
> >> > the US to use a GFCI to power either.
> >>
> >> So don't use them on either. They are usually blocked for child access
> >> anyway.
> >
> >
> > A GFCI won't protect a kid from sticking something into an outlet and
> > killing themselves if they are across line & neutral.
> >
> >
>
> A young child will usually not be dexterous enough to simultaneously stick a
> bare metal object into both line and neutral. Even if they do, the main
> current path will not be through the chest. They most likely stick a metal
> object into the line terminal while sitting on the floor and get the current
> through the body.

That doesn't stop them from chewing on a cord, or getting hold of a
lamp they knocked off a table.

> The GFI device will trip under those conditions doing exactly what they were
> designed for.

Um, no.

> But it's really your choice how safe you want the environment for your young
> kids.
>
> But you know this and are only looking for a pissing contest.

If anyone is pissing, it's you. Most outlets are no where near a
ground path other than the ground terminal in that outlet. Ones in a
kitchen, bathroom or outdoors should have GFCI protection. That's what
the US electrical code calls for. It can either be built into an outlet
for around $10, or into a circut braker for $25 or more. A GFCI outlet
can protect regualr outlets that are down stream from it. There is no
reason for whole house GFCI. In the US, with split phase 120/240, it
would require a pair of sensors, and trip up to 200 amps. Only a madman
would require that when a single circuit can be protected for lower cost
and with a higher level of safety. In fact, lights and outlets in a
room should be on seperate circuits so you aren't left in the dark if
something takes out the outlet circuit.

Keep pissing if you want to. I deal in facts, not fantasy.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Quest du jour- seeking T1.25 wire base blue tinted bulbs.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a26e1506f0b6d44b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 3:58 pm
From: aemeijers

On 1/31/2011 2:12 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
> In article<E-CdnVJIOpMyONjQnZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@giganews.com>,
> aemeijers<aemeijers@att.net> wrote:
>
>> I'll
>> pre-paint enough of them and leave them stuck in the foam block sitting
>> in a sunny window for several days, for maximum hardness (short of over
>> baking.
>
> Just power them. They'll give off plenty of heat to bake their fresh
> coatings.

If I had a bench supply (other than that old Rat Shack POS with the plus
and minus markings on the case backwards), I would. I have some wall
warts in my collection that put out 12v, but don't know how clean the
waveform is, or how much current they provide. I guess I could duct-tape
a buncha D cells together, but I'm rapidly losing interest in this
project, and they are predicting 12-15 inches of snow tomorrow night, so
I anticipate being rather tired the next few days....

--
aem sends...

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Yamaha EMX5016 mixer amp from 2006
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/bc288deddd9278ea?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 4:05 pm
From: "Gareth Magennis"

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:ii399v$g2v$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ii1n90$ii1$1@news.eternal-september.org...
>> repair m on e-S and there is an inverter stuck in before the R ch o/p,
>> not
>> for the L
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Is it just for evening up the ps?. If a momentary high draw from one PA on
> +/ve rail dropping reservoir by 1V then also a matching 1V drop on the -ve
> rail from the other ch, wheras usually that would be a 2V drop on + rail
> only
>
>

Yes there is a specific reason/technique involved in running the outputs
"out of phase" and inverting the signal to one channel.
Yamaha also do this with the Stagepas range, Lab Gruppen do this with their
far more pro series of amps. There are others. You can get more out of
the power supply by doing this.

I personally consider the technique fundamentally extremely dodgy, since the
"ground" connection on one of the amplifiers is actually live, which is not
at all obvious to anyone not in the know. In the case of the Stagepas, you
have 2 speaker jack outputs next to each other. Plug in 2 metal jack plugs
to your speakers and you have the almost unimaginable situation of 2 jack
plug bodies a few mm apart, with a power amplifiers output between them.
If you use right angled metal jack plugs, a dead short and a blown amp is
pretty much a certainty at some point, as is accidentally touching anything
grounded against the one live speaker output jack plug body "ground"

Gareth.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:21 am
From: "N_Cook"

Gareth Magennis <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:47I1p.35055$xu5.27691@newsfe04.ams2...
>
>
> "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:ii399v$g2v$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> > N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> > news:ii1n90$ii1$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> repair m on e-S and there is an inverter stuck in before the R ch o/p,
> >> not
> >> for the L
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Is it just for evening up the ps?. If a momentary high draw from one PA
on
> > +/ve rail dropping reservoir by 1V then also a matching 1V drop on
the -ve
> > rail from the other ch, wheras usually that would be a 2V drop on + rail
> > only
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> Yes there is a specific reason/technique involved in running the outputs
> "out of phase" and inverting the signal to one channel.
> Yamaha also do this with the Stagepas range, Lab Gruppen do this with
their
> far more pro series of amps. There are others. You can get more out of
> the power supply by doing this.
>
>
> I personally consider the technique fundamentally extremely dodgy, since
the
> "ground" connection on one of the amplifiers is actually live, which is
not
> at all obvious to anyone not in the know. In the case of the Stagepas,
you
> have 2 speaker jack outputs next to each other. Plug in 2 metal jack
plugs
> to your speakers and you have the almost unimaginable situation of 2 jack
> plug bodies a few mm apart, with a power amplifiers output between them.
> If you use right angled metal jack plugs, a dead short and a blown amp is
> pretty much a certainty at some point, as is accidentally touching
anything
> grounded against the one live speaker output jack plug body "ground"
>
>
>
> Gareth.
>
>

First looking at output board, knowing L ch was flakey, saw that there was
no continuity to R ground of a 1/4 jack plugged in, eventually deducing that
continuity was to the tip.

Anyway all PbF "usual suspects" dealt with on output board,ps and relevant
shannels of mixer panel. PA section not touched, inputs swapped to isolate
if the problem emerged (owner having to swap L and R speaker leads), would
isolate to mixer or PAs problem. Unlikely pa problem as L ch of meter
dropped , nothing on schema indicating meter feed from PAs .
I was just wondering, as the feed for the ps is unipolar rectified mains and
there was an obvious PbF failing on that. Especially as problem noticed at
switch on, no great load, whether the raw DC feed reducing due to
intermittant crimp contact could have led to a mior supply dropping and
thence registering as 1 ch problem on the bargraph meter.

Run for 6 hours since, by owner, with problem not emerging.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Pet hates ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e7925b5c2233e9ec?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 4:41 pm
From: "Dave Plowman (News)"

In article <n84ek6tonc88vgnp6mlkitkav4mt9h7pp5@4ax.com>,
Chuck <ch@deja.net> wrote:
> In the United States, the health insurers and their media shills
> concoct horror stories about the various European goverment managed
> health care systems. The average American, most of which who haven't
> lived in other countries, believe the lies.

A pal's sister lives in the US - was married to a US guy. She was born in
the UK and moved there when adult. Her husband walked out leaving her with
vast debts which she knew nothing about - their house will have to be
sold, or more likely repossessed. But their health insurance came with his
job. She is very worried. At 60, she's lived most of her life in the US
and doesn't want to come back to the UK as she has no friends left here.

At least in the UK you'll get pretty decent medical treatment regardless
of how poor you are.

--
*I wished the buck stopped here, as I could use a few*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 11:01 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 1/30/2011 9:28 AM aemeijers spake thus:

> On 1/23/2011 3:02 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
>
>> BTW, everyone I know in LA doesn't use numbers at all, but names that
>> are meaningless to outsiders even if they have a map: "Ventura freeway,"
>> "Hollywood freeway," "Pasadena freeway," etc.
>
> Chicago, and to a lesser degree Detroit, are the same way. Must confuse
> the crap out of visitors trying to understand traffic reports on the radio.

Well, sure; I grew up there, and it was the Edens, the Eisenhower, the
Dan Ryan, LSD, etc. No numbers there. (We vaguely knew that Lake Shore
Drive was Route 41, but nobody ever called it that.)

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 11:14 pm
From: David Nebenzahl

On 1/24/2011 6:38 PM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:

> As a former member of the Anti Digit Dialing League and fan of The
> Prisoner (I am not a number...), I find the whole effort amusing.
> <http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,827416,00.html>

You were a member of that then? I'm impressed, even if you were, of
course, ultimately unsuccessful. I miss the old exchange names from my
childhood (Evanston, Ill.): University 4 & 9, Davis 8, Greenleaf 5.

The most quaint aspect of phone numerology I remember is from when I
lived in Flagstaff. There were two old exchanges, 774 and 779. The phone
system, up until the time I left (1989), was set up so you could omit
the "77" and dial a 5-digit phone number; people there would tell you
"call me; my number is 4-8409". That's ancient history now, of course.

--
Comment on quaint Usenet customs, from Usenet:

To me, the *plonk...* reminds me of the old man at the public hearing
who stands to make his point, then removes his hearing aid as a sign
that he is not going to hear any rebuttals.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:32 am
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:14:51 -0800, David Nebenzahl
<nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote:

>On 1/24/2011 6:38 PM Jeff Liebermann spake thus:
>
>> As a former member of the Anti Digit Dialing League and fan of The
>> Prisoner (I am not a number...), I find the whole effort amusing.
>> <http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,827416,00.html>
>
>You were a member of that then? I'm impressed, even if you were, of
>course, ultimately unsuccessful.

Well, I was only 14 or 15 years old at the time, but already involved
in phone phreaking, pay phone hacking, toll evasion, theft of service,
theft of equipment, etc. If you dig deep, you'll find my name
mentioned in a few of the old 1960's stories.

>I miss the old exchange names from my
>childhood (Evanston, Ill.): University 4 & 9, Davis 8, Greenleaf 5.

In West Smog Angeles, ours was Crestview 7.
<http://ourwebhome.com/TENP/Recommended.html>

More:
<http://www.ourwebhome.com/TENP/TENproject.html>
--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Tues, Feb 1 2011 12:45 am
From: "N_Cook"

Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4uadnTJc6LyvmdrQnZ2dnUVZ_v-dnZ2d@earthlink.com...
>
> N_Cook wrote:
> >
> > Ron D. <ron.dozier@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:3704567b-3469-47f5-af0f-4251da36f1d8@17g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > > heat sink goop
> > >
> > > cars with both metric and english fasteners
> > >
> > > bristol spline srews
> >
> > Could you describe a "bristol spline screw" Google-images no help other
than
> > they are used on 30KV rated relays
>
>
> Bristol was used in electronic equipment build by the US during
> W.W.-II.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrench, almost half way down the page.
>
> http://www.bristolwrench.com/ still makes them.
>
> http://www.bristolwrench.com/spline.pdf
>
> They are availible from a lot of industrial tool dealers.
>
> A lot of people called them 'Spline Wrenches' instead of Bristol
> Wrenches.
>
>
> --
> You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
> Teflon coated.

There is a UK tool supplier called Britool confusingly

Never realised there was so many spline types, Pentalobe etc

Protruding obstacle variants ? pipped is a much more succinct term

==============================================================================
TOPIC: motherboard pwr_on pins resistance?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/65d60dc1b24d5107?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Jan 31 2011 8:41 pm
From: mynick

On Jan 31, 10:46 am, Paul <nos...@needed.com> wrote:
> mynick wrote:
> > On Jan 31, 5:20 pm, Adrian C <em...@here.invalid> wrote:
> >> On 31/01/2011 15:16, mynick wrote:
>
> >>> What you should get between those pins of  a good PC mobo when you
> >>> test with ohm-meter
> >> Normally, something other than a dead short.
>
> >> --
> >> Adrian C
>
> > are those directly connected to 'green and black wire' on atx power
> > connector on motherboard
>
> Not exactly.
>
> First, look at the power on button on your PC.
> It is a normally open, momentary contact switch.
>
> When you push the button, it creates a pulse.
> The logic input on the motherboard, has a pullup to +5VSB,
> and when you push the button, the logic signal is shorted
> to ground. A current of a milliamp or less may flow
> through the switch. (So the front panel switch can be
> a flimsy piece of crap, and still work. The front panel
> switch doesn't need a multi-amp current rating or anything.)
>
> The signal enters one of the motherboard ICs, and is
> conditioned. It is eventually converted into an active low signal
> called PS_ON#, driven by an open collector driver. The
> motherboard IC means there is no direct path, from front
> panel power on switch, to the PS_ON# signal. The motherboard
> IC doing the conditioning, is running off +5VSB at the time
> you push the button. If +5VSB is not available, then the
> signal from the switch can't be conditioned, and can't be
> acted upon.
>
> (Note - in the following, I'm illustrating the principle
> of cause and effect, not the timing. I didn't verify that
> the timing looks exactly like this. But it gets the idea
> across.)
>
> PWR      -----+   +------  Momentary pulse, active low
> (Mobo         |   |
> Header)       +---+
>
> PS_ON#   -----+           OFF
> (main         |
> 20 pin)       +---------- ON
>
> The decoupling is more apparent, if you attempt to turn off
> the PC, after the PC is booted. They have an option to check
> a timer, which validates the state change on the PWR switch. You
> have to press the front panel switch for at least 4 seconds,
> to get the PC to power off. And the switch can be set in the BIOS,
> to either do a controlled shutdown of the PC, or do a power off
> instead. In the following diagram, I'm showing the "immediate"
> power down option in action (it's how my PC is set up right now
> in the BIOS). So after the four seconds is up, the power just
> goes OFF, without warning the OS. This gives a "dirty" shutdown,
> and potentially needs a CHKDSK later, to fix the file system.
>
> PWR      -----+               +------
> (Mobo         |               |
> Header)       +---------------+
>
> PS_ON#        <- 4 sec -> |--------- OFF
> (main                     |
> 20 pin)  -----------------+          ON
>
> For a sample motherboard schematic, you can take a look at
> this old 440BX design.
>
> http://www.intel.com/design/chipsets/designex/BXDPDG10.PDF
>
> On page 32, B_SUSC drives pin 14 on the ATX power connector. That
> is the green wire (PS_ON# signal) in the ATX standard. B_SUSC
> stands for "buffered SUSC signal".
>
> On page 18, you can see the creation of the B_SUSC (PS_ON#) signal.
> A 74F07 open collector driver is used. That is a beefy OC driver,
> with lots of current sink capability to ground. Modern PCs
> are probably using something a bit weaker than that. To operate
> PS_ON#, probably requires sinking a milliamp or two (I don't
> know the exact figure right off hand). It shouldn't need a lot
> of beef, but the beauty of the 74F07, is it is more likely to
> survive all insults. Occasionally, on modern motherboards, the
> equivalent to the 74F07 function, fails to sink properly to
> ground (logic 0).
>
> The SUSC# signal is coming from the Southbridge. So that is where the
> "conditioned" control signal, comes out of the motherboard chipset in
> this case.
>
> Now, still on page 18, you can see in the Power Management section
> of the Southbridge IC, they have a "PWRBT#" (Power Button) signal,
> which is active low. That is the signal the Southbridge is going
> to be looking for a pulse on. The power button circuit is back on page 32.
>
> And on page 32, they kinda ruined my explanation. They chose to use
> a momentary high pulse from the switch (switch pulls to 3VSB), plus
> a CMOS Schmitt trigger/inverter to clean up the edge of the signal. The
> 74LVC14 turns that signal upside-down again, so as the PWRBT#
> signal leaves page 32, it is an active low pulse. But as far as
> I know, modern motherboards don't have that additional step.
> The switch would be set up to pulse low, so the 74LVC14 would
> not be present.
>
> Using an ohmmeter, on the PWR/GND pair on the motherboard panel
> header, should have little to do with the PS_ON# signal on the
> main 20 or 24 pin cable, as they're separated by the logic in
> at least one chip. In the Intel schematic, that was the Southbridge.
> So ohming from PWR to PS_ON# wouldn't be telling you anything.
>
> What you want to do, is check the voltage level on PS_ON# (green wire),
> while you're fiddling with the front panel power button. If the
> motherboard open collector driver, pulls the PS_ON# signal towards
> ground (zero volts), then you should be seeing the power supply
> fan come on and the main rails pop up.
>
> On the input side, you'd monitor the voltage between PWR/GND
> pair, when you push the front panel button. PWR should
> drop to zero volts, for as long as the front power button
> is pushed. Alternately, you can connect the front panel PWR
> switch to your ohmmeter, and see if it reads zero ohms, when
> the button is pushed. Sometimes, the flimsy button breaks,
> and when you push the button, it no longer makes a proper
> momentary contact.
>
> HTH,
>       Paul

thanks for great explanation
so in modern mobos the on switch grounds a pulled up line, straight to
southbridge
(Possibly there is a Schmitt trigger/inverter in between the two)

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