sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 9 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: And today's little bit of time-wasting lead-free nonsense ...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/6de2b1df275b761d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 12:26 am
From: "N_Cook"

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:Qnf4p.45514$837.38425@newsfe19.ams2...
> A big heavy Quad sub. It's been so long since I've seen anything new with
> the Quad name on it, I wasn't even sure that they were still going.
Anyway,
> this thing always worked in that the amplifier kept producing output, but
> there was, at the very least, a background 'rustle' and at worst an
> alarmingly loud crackle, that can't have been doing the internal bass
driver
> any good. Not affected by volume setting, so output or PSU. Nothing really
> conclusive to be seen on a 'scope. When it was doing it, you could 'see'
it
> virtually anywhere, including on the output stage power rails, which were
> bouncing around all over the place. It had a 'feel' of an intermittent
> output transistor about it. Nothing physical such as heat, cold or
vibration
> would provoke it, so I initially rejected thoughts of bad joints. There
are
> four output Tr's in it - 2 x PNP and 2 x NPN , paralleled up, so I removed
> one pair. No difference. Still worked perfectly well, and still had the
> random crackle. So I swapped the first two transistors back in. No change.
> Some time was then spent trying to prove where the noise was coming from,
> without any positive results, Eventually, I decided that it might
actually
> be a bad joint. There was no indication that the board was built with
> lead-free solder, other than the fact that the joints were conical and
dull.
>
> I set about doing a blanket re-solder, and quickly ran into trouble. I
don't
> know what on earth sort of solder they had used, but even on small joints,
> my temperature controlled bench iron was struggling. I even wound it up
full
> to 450 deg, and it still wasn't good. On larger joints like the smoothing
> caps and the very chunky rectifier diodes, it wasn't having any of it at
> all. Eventually, I had to dig out my 45 year old 140 watt Weller gun. At
> least that made short work of reflowing the joints, but of course, you've
> got to then be twice as careful about running joints into one another, as
> the tip is really too big for this sort of job.
>
> In the end, when it was all back together, it was silent, so I have to
> conclude that it *was* a bad joint. But what makes it so frustrating from
a
> commercial 'let's make some money from this repair' point of view, is that
> unlike conventional leaded solder joints when they go bad, you just can't
> provoke lead-free bad joints to show themselves by any of the time-tested
> and trusted methods.
>
> I hate the stuff with a passion >:-(
>
> Arfa
>

Is one of your inducers an engraving tool with an insert of a nylon bolt
with "sharpened" end/tip? to pcb only , no direct contact to any SMD of
course as likely to flip them off.
Unfortunately you have to monitor the o/p with phones because of the noise
of the engraver. So what sort of solder do you think it was ? high Cu and
tin ? at those sorts of temp very high probability of temp induced Si
failures. Manufacture date?

== 2 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 2:16 am
From: JW

On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:50:39 -0000 "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>
wrote in Message id: <Qnf4p.45514$837.38425@newsfe19.ams2>:

>A big heavy Quad sub. It's been so long since I've seen anything new with
>the Quad name on it, I wasn't even sure that they were still going. Anyway,
>this thing always worked in that the amplifier kept producing output, but
>there was, at the very least, a background 'rustle' and at worst an
>alarmingly loud crackle, that can't have been doing the internal bass driver
>any good. Not affected by volume setting, so output or PSU. Nothing really
>conclusive to be seen on a 'scope. When it was doing it, you could 'see' it
>virtually anywhere, including on the output stage power rails, which were
>bouncing around all over the place. It had a 'feel' of an intermittent
>output transistor about it. Nothing physical such as heat, cold or vibration
>would provoke it, so I initially rejected thoughts of bad joints. There are
>four output Tr's in it - 2 x PNP and 2 x NPN , paralleled up, so I removed
>one pair. No difference. Still worked perfectly well, and still had the
>random crackle. So I swapped the first two transistors back in. No change.
>Some time was then spent trying to prove where the noise was coming from,
>without any positive results, Eventually, I decided that it might actually
>be a bad joint. There was no indication that the board was built with
>lead-free solder, other than the fact that the joints were conical and dull.
>
>I set about doing a blanket re-solder, and quickly ran into trouble. I don't
>know what on earth sort of solder they had used, but even on small joints,
>my temperature controlled bench iron was struggling. I even wound it up full
>to 450 deg, and it still wasn't good. On larger joints like the smoothing
>caps and the very chunky rectifier diodes, it wasn't having any of it at
>all. Eventually, I had to dig out my 45 year old 140 watt Weller gun. At
>least that made short work of reflowing the joints, but of course, you've
>got to then be twice as careful about running joints into one another, as
>the tip is really too big for this sort of job.
>
>In the end, when it was all back together, it was silent, so I have to
>conclude that it *was* a bad joint. But what makes it so frustrating from a
>commercial 'let's make some money from this repair' point of view, is that
>unlike conventional leaded solder joints when they go bad, you just can't
>provoke lead-free bad joints to show themselves by any of the time-tested
>and trusted methods.
>
>I hate the stuff with a passion >:-(

ObAOL: Me too! In the last few weeks alone I repaired several custom A/D
converter boards where they were inoperative until you put a slight
pressure a 44 pin PLCC dual port ram chip located between the micro and
the PLD. Looking at all the pins under a stereo microscope which has 25x
magnification revealed no bad solder joints, every joint looked flawless.
Yet when I resoldered the chip (with leaded solder) the boards worked
perfectly. I'd like to round up the folks who started this nonsense and
drop 'em in a large vat of molten no-lead solder, which is about the only
thing it'd be good for.

On the plus side, I have not yet seen any failures that could be
attributed to whisker growth.

== 3 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 2:19 am
From: JW

On Wed, 9 Feb 2011 08:26:27 -0000 "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in
Message id: <iitj24$n0g$1@news.eternal-september.org>:

>Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>news:Qnf4p.45514$837.38425@newsfe19.ams2...
>> A big heavy Quad sub. It's been so long since I've seen anything new with
>> the Quad name on it, I wasn't even sure that they were still going.
>Anyway,
>> this thing always worked in that the amplifier kept producing output, but
>> there was, at the very least, a background 'rustle' and at worst an
>> alarmingly loud crackle, that can't have been doing the internal bass
>driver
>> any good. Not affected by volume setting, so output or PSU. Nothing really
>> conclusive to be seen on a 'scope. When it was doing it, you could 'see'
>it
>> virtually anywhere, including on the output stage power rails, which were
>> bouncing around all over the place. It had a 'feel' of an intermittent
>> output transistor about it. Nothing physical such as heat, cold or
>vibration
>> would provoke it, so I initially rejected thoughts of bad joints. There
>are
>> four output Tr's in it - 2 x PNP and 2 x NPN , paralleled up, so I removed
>> one pair. No difference. Still worked perfectly well, and still had the
>> random crackle. So I swapped the first two transistors back in. No change.
>> Some time was then spent trying to prove where the noise was coming from,
>> without any positive results, Eventually, I decided that it might
>actually
>> be a bad joint. There was no indication that the board was built with
>> lead-free solder, other than the fact that the joints were conical and
>dull.
>>
>> I set about doing a blanket re-solder, and quickly ran into trouble. I
>don't
>> know what on earth sort of solder they had used, but even on small joints,
>> my temperature controlled bench iron was struggling. I even wound it up
>full
>> to 450 deg, and it still wasn't good. On larger joints like the smoothing
>> caps and the very chunky rectifier diodes, it wasn't having any of it at
>> all. Eventually, I had to dig out my 45 year old 140 watt Weller gun. At
>> least that made short work of reflowing the joints, but of course, you've
>> got to then be twice as careful about running joints into one another, as
>> the tip is really too big for this sort of job.
>>
>> In the end, when it was all back together, it was silent, so I have to
>> conclude that it *was* a bad joint. But what makes it so frustrating from
>a
>> commercial 'let's make some money from this repair' point of view, is that
>> unlike conventional leaded solder joints when they go bad, you just can't
>> provoke lead-free bad joints to show themselves by any of the time-tested
>> and trusted methods.
>>
>> I hate the stuff with a passion >:-(
>>
>> Arfa
>>
>
>Is one of your inducers an engraving tool with an insert of a nylon bolt
>with "sharpened" end/tip? to pcb only , no direct contact to any SMD of
>course as likely to flip them off.
>Unfortunately you have to monitor the o/p with phones because of the noise
>of the engraver. So what sort of solder do you think it was ? high Cu and
>tin ? at those sorts of temp very high probability of temp induced Si
>failures. Manufacture date?

Hi N_cook,

Have you ever noticed that your quoting is broken? If you're interested in
fixing it, check this web page:
http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

== 4 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 3:14 am
From: "Arfa Daily"

>>
>> In the end, when it was all back together, it was silent, so I have to
>> conclude that it *was* a bad joint. But what makes it so frustrating from
> a
>> commercial 'let's make some money from this repair' point of view, is
>> that
>> unlike conventional leaded solder joints when they go bad, you just can't
>> provoke lead-free bad joints to show themselves by any of the time-tested
>> and trusted methods.
>>
>> I hate the stuff with a passion >:-(
>>
>> Arfa
>>
>
> Is one of your inducers an engraving tool with an insert of a nylon bolt
> with "sharpened" end/tip? to pcb only , no direct contact to any SMD of
> course as likely to flip them off.
> Unfortunately you have to monitor the o/p with phones because of the noise
> of the engraver. So what sort of solder do you think it was ? high Cu and
> tin ? at those sorts of temp very high probability of temp induced Si
> failures. Manufacture date?
>
>

I tend to use a Biro pen, a hot air rework station (turned down to 100 deg
or so), a can of freezer, and the butt end of a bloody great screwdy. Oh
yes. And a lump hammer ... :-)

Seriously though, with normal leaded joints, I've never found it necessary
to use anything other than 'gentle' methods to pin a bad joint down to
within a square cm of board, which is what makes lead-free joint problems so
incredibly frustrating. I get them all the time where you've only got to
look sideways at the board, and the joint will go bad, and yet no amount of
provocation will bring it on when it's right, nor get it back when it's
wrong. And when you do eventually find it, the component is often hanging
out of the board - except you can't actually see that it is until you tug on
it, or come to re-solder it, when the solder flies away from the component
leg to form a ring on the pad, leaving the leg looking as though it's never
been soldered in its life ... And how many times do these lead-free bad
joint jobs bounce a couple of weeks later ? Can you imagine the implications
if the rotten stuff ever does find its way into avionics and other
life-preserving areas ? New programme on Discovery ? "Aircrash
Investigation - The Lead-Free Years" ?

As to the Quad. It was from their "Lite" series. The owner's user guide says
"03 - 05 Issue 1" inside its front cover so I'm guessing maybe 2005 ?? which
is before the 'official' lead-free introduction cut off point of June 2006,
but a number of manufacturers - notably Sony for instance - were
manufacturing with the stuff well in advance of that date. There is also a
note in the back cover about EC compliance requirements that it conforms to,
but they are about EMC and voltage safety. No mention of lead-free.

I suppose it's possible that the thing was not built with lead-free, but it
certainly looked and behaved like the stuff. Which brings us back to a point
often made by Mr Cook. How do you tell for sure when the board isn't
categorically marked ?

I really don't know what alloy had been used on this. Only that it had
trouble melting on the end of my normal continuous-use
temperature-controlled bench iron, even when set at max. It did melt ok with
the 140 watt Weller gun on it, but even with that, it only 'flowed' fairly
normally. Anyone who has ever used one of these beasts, will know that under
normal circumstances, a small joint will be pretty much boiled on the tip
...

Arfa

== 5 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 4:31 am
From: "N_Cook"

JW <none@dev.null> wrote in message
news:4tp4l6pmkg3pose3shc1ks0ipt0gsj9l83@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:50:39 -0000 "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>
> wrote in Message id: <Qnf4p.45514$837.38425@newsfe19.ams2>:
>
> >A big heavy Quad sub. It's been so long since I've seen anything new with
> >the Quad name on it, I wasn't even sure that they were still going.
Anyway,
> >this thing always worked in that the amplifier kept producing output, but
> >there was, at the very least, a background 'rustle' and at worst an
> >alarmingly loud crackle, that can't have been doing the internal bass
driver SMD desoldering tweezers

For simple 2 land devices like Rs and Cs , apply the tweezers across the
long axis or short axis? flat good metal/metal contacts generally shortwise
but full-on solder contact lengthwise although spherical/flat contacts until
initial solder melt.
> >any good. Not affected by volume setting, so output or PSU. Nothing
really
> >conclusive to be seen on a 'scope. When it was doing it, you could 'see'
it
> >virtually anywhere, including on the output stage power rails, which were
> >bouncing around all over the place. It had a 'feel' of an intermittent
> >output transistor about it. Nothing physical such as heat, cold or
vibration
> >would provoke it, so I initially rejected thoughts of bad joints. There
are
> >four output Tr's in it - 2 x PNP and 2 x NPN , paralleled up, so I
removed
> >one pair. No difference. Still worked perfectly well, and still had the
> >random crackle. So I swapped the first two transistors back in. No
change.
> >Some time was then spent trying to prove where the noise was coming from,
> >without any positive results, Eventually, I decided that it might
actually
> >be a bad joint. There was no indication that the board was built with
> >lead-free solder, other than the fact that the joints were conical and
dull.
> >
> >I set about doing a blanket re-solder, and quickly ran into trouble. I
don't
> >know what on earth sort of solder they had used, but even on small
joints,
> >my temperature controlled bench iron was struggling. I even wound it up
full
> >to 450 deg, and it still wasn't good. On larger joints like the smoothing
> >caps and the very chunky rectifier diodes, it wasn't having any of it at
> >all. Eventually, I had to dig out my 45 year old 140 watt Weller gun. At
> >least that made short work of reflowing the joints, but of course, you've
> >got to then be twice as careful about running joints into one another, as
> >the tip is really too big for this sort of job.
> >
> >In the end, when it was all back together, it was silent, so I have to
> >conclude that it *was* a bad joint. But what makes it so frustrating from
a
> >commercial 'let's make some money from this repair' point of view, is
that
> >unlike conventional leaded solder joints when they go bad, you just can't
> >provoke lead-free bad joints to show themselves by any of the time-tested
> >and trusted methods.
> >
> >I hate the stuff with a passion >:-(
>
> ObAOL: Me too! In the last few weeks alone I repaired several custom A/D
> converter boards where they were inoperative until you put a slight
> pressure a 44 pin PLCC dual port ram chip located between the micro and
> the PLD. Looking at all the pins under a stereo microscope which has 25x
> magnification revealed no bad solder joints, every joint looked flawless.
> Yet when I resoldered the chip (with leaded solder) the boards worked
> perfectly. I'd like to round up the folks who started this nonsense and
> drop 'em in a large vat of molten no-lead solder, which is about the only
> thing it'd be good for.
>
> On the plus side, I have not yet seen any failures that could be
> attributed to whisker growth.

have you tried cut finger-nail clipping test - oh no a reason to save nail
clippings. Sometimes running a point-ended clipping along the run of PLCC
pins , the "note" will change with poor soldered pins compared to the rest

== 6 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 4:35 am
From: "N_Cook"

Arfa Daily <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:XGu4p.3$si3.0@newsfe11.ams2...
>

>
> I tend to use a Biro pen, a hot air rework station (turned down to 100 deg
> or so), a can of freezer, and the butt end of a bloody great screwdy. Oh
> yes. And a lump hammer ... :-)
>
> Seriously though, with normal leaded joints, I've never found it necessary
> to use anything other than 'gentle' methods to pin a bad joint down to
> within a square cm of board, which is what makes lead-free joint problems
so
> incredibly frustrating. I get them all the time where you've only got to
> look sideways at the board, and the joint will go bad, and yet no amount
of
> provocation will bring it on when it's right, nor get it back when it's
> wrong. And when you do eventually find it, the component is often hanging
> out of the board - except you can't actually see that it is until you tug
on
> it, or come to re-solder it, when the solder flies away from the component
> leg to form a ring on the pad, leaving the leg looking as though it's
never
> been soldered in its life ... And how many times do these lead-free bad
> joint jobs bounce a couple of weeks later ? Can you imagine the
implications
> if the rotten stuff ever does find its way into avionics and other
> life-preserving areas ? New programme on Discovery ? "Aircrash
> Investigation - The Lead-Free Years" ?
>
> As to the Quad. It was from their "Lite" series. The owner's user guide
says
> "03 - 05 Issue 1" inside its front cover so I'm guessing maybe 2005 ??
which
> is before the 'official' lead-free introduction cut off point of June
2006,
> but a number of manufacturers - notably Sony for instance - were
> manufacturing with the stuff well in advance of that date. There is also a
> note in the back cover about EC compliance requirements that it conforms
to,
> but they are about EMC and voltage safety. No mention of lead-free.
>
> I suppose it's possible that the thing was not built with lead-free, but
it
> certainly looked and behaved like the stuff. Which brings us back to a
point
> often made by Mr Cook. How do you tell for sure when the board isn't
> categorically marked ?
>
> I really don't know what alloy had been used on this. Only that it had
> trouble melting on the end of my normal continuous-use
> temperature-controlled bench iron, even when set at max. It did melt ok
with
> the 140 watt Weller gun on it, but even with that, it only 'flowed' fairly
> normally. Anyone who has ever used one of these beasts, will know that
under
> normal circumstances, a small joint will be pretty much boiled on the tip
> ...
>
> Arfa
>

I wonder if there is a "one-time" formulation of solder, low temp initial
use, then higher temp if reworked, or some sort of chemical de-eutectic
process over time.

The earliest PbF i've found was 2001 Yamaha unit

== 7 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 4:38 am
From: JW

On Wed, 9 Feb 2011 12:31:38 -0000 "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in
Message id: <iiu1ks$8jl$1@news.eternal-september.org>:

>JW <none@dev.null> wrote in message
>news:4tp4l6pmkg3pose3shc1ks0ipt0gsj9l83@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:50:39 -0000 "Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote in Message id: <Qnf4p.45514$837.38425@newsfe19.ams2>:
>>
>> >A big heavy Quad sub. It's been so long since I've seen anything new with
>> >the Quad name on it, I wasn't even sure that they were still going.
>Anyway,
>> >this thing always worked in that the amplifier kept producing output, but
>> >there was, at the very least, a background 'rustle' and at worst an
>> >alarmingly loud crackle, that can't have been doing the internal bass
>driver SMD desoldering tweezers
>
>For simple 2 land devices like Rs and Cs , apply the tweezers across the
>long axis or short axis? flat good metal/metal contacts generally shortwise
>but full-on solder contact lengthwise although spherical/flat contacts until
>initial solder melt.
>> >any good. Not affected by volume setting, so output or PSU. Nothing
>really
>> >conclusive to be seen on a 'scope. When it was doing it, you could 'see'
>it
>> >virtually anywhere, including on the output stage power rails, which were
>> >bouncing around all over the place. It had a 'feel' of an intermittent
>> >output transistor about it. Nothing physical such as heat, cold or
>vibration
>> >would provoke it, so I initially rejected thoughts of bad joints. There
>are
>> >four output Tr's in it - 2 x PNP and 2 x NPN , paralleled up, so I
>removed
>> >one pair. No difference. Still worked perfectly well, and still had the
>> >random crackle. So I swapped the first two transistors back in. No
>change.
>> >Some time was then spent trying to prove where the noise was coming from,
>> >without any positive results, Eventually, I decided that it might
>actually
>> >be a bad joint. There was no indication that the board was built with
>> >lead-free solder, other than the fact that the joints were conical and
>dull.
>> >
>> >I set about doing a blanket re-solder, and quickly ran into trouble. I
>don't
>> >know what on earth sort of solder they had used, but even on small
>joints,
>> >my temperature controlled bench iron was struggling. I even wound it up
>full
>> >to 450 deg, and it still wasn't good. On larger joints like the smoothing
>> >caps and the very chunky rectifier diodes, it wasn't having any of it at
>> >all. Eventually, I had to dig out my 45 year old 140 watt Weller gun. At
>> >least that made short work of reflowing the joints, but of course, you've
>> >got to then be twice as careful about running joints into one another, as
>> >the tip is really too big for this sort of job.
>> >
>> >In the end, when it was all back together, it was silent, so I have to
>> >conclude that it *was* a bad joint. But what makes it so frustrating from
>a
>> >commercial 'let's make some money from this repair' point of view, is
>that
>> >unlike conventional leaded solder joints when they go bad, you just can't
>> >provoke lead-free bad joints to show themselves by any of the time-tested
>> >and trusted methods.
>> >
>> >I hate the stuff with a passion >:-(
>>
>> ObAOL: Me too! In the last few weeks alone I repaired several custom A/D
>> converter boards where they were inoperative until you put a slight
>> pressure a 44 pin PLCC dual port ram chip located between the micro and
>> the PLD. Looking at all the pins under a stereo microscope which has 25x
>> magnification revealed no bad solder joints, every joint looked flawless.
>> Yet when I resoldered the chip (with leaded solder) the boards worked
>> perfectly. I'd like to round up the folks who started this nonsense and
>> drop 'em in a large vat of molten no-lead solder, which is about the only
>> thing it'd be good for.
>>
>> On the plus side, I have not yet seen any failures that could be
>> attributed to whisker growth.
>
>
>have you tried cut finger-nail clipping test - oh no a reason to save nail
>clippings. Sometimes running a point-ended clipping along the run of PLCC
>pins , the "note" will change with poor soldered pins compared to the rest

No I haven't heard *that* one yet. What will people say at work when they
see a dish full of clippings? :) Perhaps a plastic probe of some sort
might also work...

== 8 of 8 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 8:21 am
From: lsmartino

On 8 feb, 13:50, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
(...)>
> I hate the stuff with a passion >:-(
>
> Arfa

I agree. I just repaired the control card of my room air conditioner.
The PCB was marked as ROHS. The failure was that the swing motor wasn
´t working properly. It would work sometimes, and sometimes not, until
it didn´t turned on no matter what. Testing the motor for continuity
revealed that the internal wiring was ok, so the problem was in the
control card. Testing of the relay which turns on/off the motor showed
nothing relevant, prodding the relay showed nothing too and to the
naked eye the relay looked like it was well soldered to the board
without signs of arcing. Nonetheless I decided to remove the relay and
solder it back... and problem solved :-/

I don´t know for sure what happens to lead free solder joints over
time, but seems to me that over time the solder joint becomes some
sort of insulator, even if it seems OK both physically and
mechanically.

FWIW, a swing motor just consumes 4W at 220 VAC. It´s almost equal in
power and size as a turntable motor for a microwave oven.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Intel "asked" to sell faulty chips
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/cf4be05bbe67d3b2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 1:01 am
From: Sylvia Else

On 9/02/2011 5:39 PM, Fred wrote:
> Jeff Liebermann<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
> news:flv3l6lrqskh7hqkoqmlc8hahd2suqdto1@4ax.com:
>
>> How to tell if you have a problem
>
> Your only problem is to identify the board in your computer for the next 8
> years until all the defective boards have been dumped by the
> discounters.....
>
> Then, the problem becomes THEIR problem as you RETURN THE JUNK for a full
> refund......or else.
>

I'd have thought Intel and other board manufacturers will at least
change the revision number of their boards. The specs for the current
revisions will be changed to state that some or all of the SATA II ports
are not functional.

A discounter should take note and describe the borads accordingly. Then
if a customer tries to return the board, having failed to take note, it
will be their problem, not the discounters. If the discounter fails to
properly describe the board, then they should have to provide a refund.

So while some people may suffer problems, they will be self-inflicted.

Sylvia.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 10:23 am
From: Fred

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in news:8rf3f0F340U1
@mid.individual.net:

> Then
> if a customer tries to return the board, having failed to take note, it
> will be their problem, not the discounters. If the discounter fails to
> properly describe the board, then they should have to provide a refund.
>

You need to read Federal Law 15USC50 section 2300. What you propose is
not allowed when items are sold to the consumer. Goods are expected, by
Federal Law, to be fully functional with no known issues with design,
material or workmanship BEFORE you purchase V1.00.

It's an amazing law, and every American needs to research it. I
successfully returned an $8,400 Yamaha Waverunner that was poorly
designed in 1997 and got a full refund. Being told you can't do that or
this is simply a lie....to the informed consumer. There's no exclusion
in the law for BS...(c;]

Every defective board sold is in violation of the "Implied Warranty of
Merchantability" and they know it. They're depending on consumers simply
knuckling under and believing the company BS about implied warranty
disclaimers that are in ever written warranty you ever get....which are
NOT permitted under the law. It's why Walmart cheerfully refunds your
money on the bad toaster, even out of the written short warranty.
Implied warranties go BEYOND the written warranty by at least 4 years, as
tested in court.

Most important to the consumer is 15USC50 2304(a)(4) which the courts
have consistently said gives them 3 attempts or 30 days to fix your lemon
car, without a state lemon law by the way which is window dressing, or
it's up to the CONSUMER, not "them", whether to elect for a full refund
of every dime or a whole new unit (not some used sellphone from a refurb
shop, for instance). The sellphone business is rampantly in breach....

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode15/usc_sup_01_15_10_50.html

FTC, tasked with its enforcement but ignoring it as much as possible in
the Corporate States of America, has a little book to read explaining it
to even the stupidest company bureaucrats.

http://business.ftc.gov/documents/bus01-businesspersons-guide-federal-
warranty-law

Did you know if they say you HAVE to use a special brand of motor oil or
printer paper, they MUST, by law, give it to you for free for the life of
the item? Think about that, the next time you're buying a $55 HP printer
cartridge that's price fixed in every store and it takes hackers to crack
open to refill. Lots of stuff needs to be tested by class action suits
that aren't.....well.....yet.

....and you thought Microsoft gave you free bug fixes because they love
you.....ha!

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 10:37 am
From: Fred

Sylvia Else <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in news:8rf3f0F340U1
@mid.individual.net:

From the FTC manual.....

"The implied warranty of merchantability is a merchant's basic promise
that the goods sold will do what they are supposed to do and that there
is nothing significantly wrong with them. In other words, it is an
implied promise that the goods are fit to be sold. The law says that
merchants make this promise automatically every time they sell a product
they are in business to sell. For example, if you, as an appliance
retailer, sell an oven, you are promising that the oven is in proper
condition for sale because it will do what ovens are supposed to do—bake
food at controlled temperatures selected by the buyer. If the oven does
not heat, or if it heats without proper temperature control, then the
oven is not fit for sale as an oven, and your implied warranty of
merchantability would be breached. In such a case, the law requires you
to provide a remedy so that the buyer gets a working oven."

Notice, too, it says MERCHANT, not manufacturer. Merchants have told us
all our lives they are not responsible for anything wrong with what they
sell and we must contact the manufacturer for any resolution, like
replacement or refunds. This is simply NOT TRUE! More BS! Says so
right in their own manual from the Federal regulators.

"No" is also not an answer. I got a "No" from my Smart car merchant when
I asked him about replacing the obviously defective crazing Makrolon
sunroof (same plastic as DVD). The sun's UV eats it causing internal gas
to create first bubbles then tiny cracks as the bubble pressure splits
the cheap plastic. It's $1,400 for the local Mercedes dealer to replace
it farmed out to a local glass shop. $1400 is worth fighting for. So,
after the service manager said of my written warranty that expired 3
months earlier, "When it's over, it's OVER!" Well, as anyone can see the
defective materials used to make the sunroof, Mayer Chemical's Makrolon
made by Webasto for Daimler-Benz, is a breach of Merchantability. I
called the US Distributor, Penske Automotive AKA SmartUSA on their
"customer service" line and offered to FAX them the FTC manual above. It
was unnecessary after the company lawyers decided it was more economical
to replace my defective product, that SHOULD have all been recalled but
hasn't, rather than try to explain it to a Federal judge. The dealer,
grudgingly, replaced the roof and charged Penske for it. He wondered
aloud how I "got away with it", his words. He now has a neatly printed
FTC manual explaining to him his responsibilities to his customers, just
like Roger's SmartUSA, hand-printed and hand-delivered by me and my
eyewitness...in case he needs to be reminded in some future courtroom
that he, in fact, had it put in his hand for his enlightenment....like my
Yamaha jetski dealer...(c;]

We really aren't helpless....just ignorant, stupid and mis or un-
informed....

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 11:04 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

I first learned about the "warranty of implied merchantability" and related
common-law consumer protections over 30 years ago in an article in -- of all
magazines -- "High Fidelity". I still have a copy of it.

It's nice to see that others are aware of the protections that dealers and
manufacturers wish to disown.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: SEXY HOT GIRLS
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/40701fb10e9607b6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 3:00 am
From: SRAVANTHI LOVE

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Nuisance fastners - winge
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/9108d595e22824ac?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 3:29 am
From: Sylvia Else

I had occasion to dismantle a cheap pedestal fan the other day (Coles
Home Collection). It hadn't failed, but I wanted to see how it was wired
up (that's another story).

The cover to the button panel was held in place by four screws which
were identical except that two were philips head type, and the other two
had a triangular socket in the head.

I have bits to cope with most things I've encountered, but not those.
What's the point? Are they worried about competition for repairing these
$10 fans?

Do consumers regularly electrocute themselves by taking fans apart
without knowing what they're doing?

Sylvia.

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 4:23 am
From: Alan

On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 22:29:35 +1100, Sylvia Else
<sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:

>I had occasion to dismantle a cheap pedestal fan the other day (Coles
>Home Collection). It hadn't failed, but I wanted to see how it was wired
>up (that's another story).
>
>The cover to the button panel was held in place by four screws which
>were identical except that two were philips head type, and the other two
>had a triangular socket in the head.
>
>I have bits to cope with most things I've encountered, but not those.
>What's the point? Are they worried about competition for repairing these
>$10 fans?
>
>Do consumers regularly electrocute themselves by taking fans apart
>without knowing what they're doing?
>
>Sylvia.
I just used a small flat blade screwdriver to remove them. Got to be
the right size though to jam along one flat of the triangle.

--
Sell your surplus electronic components at
http://ozcomponents.com
Search or browse for that IC, capacitor,
crystal or other component you need.
Or find new components at http://auscomponents.com

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 4:35 am
From: Sylvia Else

On 9/02/2011 11:23 PM, Alan wrote:
> On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 22:29:35 +1100, Sylvia Else
> <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I had occasion to dismantle a cheap pedestal fan the other day (Coles
>> Home Collection). It hadn't failed, but I wanted to see how it was wired
>> up (that's another story).
>>
>> The cover to the button panel was held in place by four screws which
>> were identical except that two were philips head type, and the other two
>> had a triangular socket in the head.
>>
>> I have bits to cope with most things I've encountered, but not those.
>> What's the point? Are they worried about competition for repairing these
>> $10 fans?
>>
>> Do consumers regularly electrocute themselves by taking fans apart
>> without knowing what they're doing?
>>
>> Sylvia.
> I just used a small flat blade screwdriver to remove them. Got to be
> the right size though to jam along one flat of the triangle.

Well, I got one of them undone using a tri-wing bit, but stripped the
other attempting to do the same thing. However, I managed to see what I
wanted to see.

<http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Screw_Head_-_Tri-wing.svg/40px-Screw_Head_-_Tri-wing.svg.png>

Sylvia.

>
>
> --
> Sell your surplus electronic components at
> http://ozcomponents.com
> Search or browse for that IC, capacitor,
> crystal or other component you need.
> Or find new components at http://auscomponents.com

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 8:05 am
From: "fritz"

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote in message news:8rfg0eFnguU1@mid.individual.net...
> On 9/02/2011 11:23 PM, Alan wrote:
>> On Wed, 09 Feb 2011 22:29:35 +1100, Sylvia Else
>> <sylvia@not.here.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> I had occasion to dismantle a cheap pedestal fan the other day (Coles
>>> Home Collection). It hadn't failed, but I wanted to see how it was wired
>>> up (that's another story).
>>>
>>> The cover to the button panel was held in place by four screws which
>>> were identical except that two were philips head type, and the other two
>>> had a triangular socket in the head.
>>>
>>> I have bits to cope with most things I've encountered, but not those.
>>> What's the point? Are they worried about competition for repairing these
>>> $10 fans?
>>>
>>> Do consumers regularly electrocute themselves by taking fans apart
>>> without knowing what they're doing?
>>>
>>> Sylvia.
>> I just used a small flat blade screwdriver to remove them. Got to be
>> the right size though to jam along one flat of the triangle.
>
> Well, I got one of them undone using a tri-wing bit, but stripped the other attempting to do the same thing. However, I managed to
> see what I wanted to see.

Which was ?
Is there a point to this thread apart from the type of screw you couldn't screw ?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: SMD desoldering tweezers
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/fbf782d5089690c4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 4:39 am
From: "N_Cook"

For simple 2 land devices like Rs and Cs , apply the tweezers across the
long axis or short axis? Flat/flat and so good metal/metal contacts
generally if shortwise application but full-on solder contact lengthwise
although spherical/flat contacts until initial solder melt. Assuming the
tweezer ends are centrally relieved for the shortwise situation to avoid
contacting the "active" section of the SMD

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 9:03 am
From: "Michael A. Terrell"

N_Cook wrote:
>
> For simple 2 land devices like Rs and Cs , apply the tweezers across the
> long axis or short axis? Flat/flat and so good metal/metal contacts
> generally if shortwise application but full-on solder contact lengthwise
> although spherical/flat contacts until initial solder melt. Assuming the
> tweezer ends are centrally relieved for the shortwise situation to avoid
> contacting the "active" section of the SMD

I prefer two soldering irons to the tweezers.

--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What is the fifth transistor likely for?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/cbdab6f7f9577f6d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 5:15 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

>>> There shouldn't be a need to compensate for temps in
>>> something that doesn't put out a lot of wattage in the
>>> first place.

>> Not so -- not for germanium transistors...

> Grow up Bill. Poster said circa 1998. How many combos
> from then had Ge outputs?

None. But that isn't what you said.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 5:17 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> I have only seen flatpack transistors being used for this purpose where
> we're talking big power levels, such as in PA amps.

> However, repairing this Chinese crap every day of my working life, I can
say
> that it is extremely common to find one or more flatpack devices,
additional
> to those being used for the output stage, mounted on the same heatsink. I
> guess this is to cut down on cost. Invariably, these 'extra' devices, are
> simple linear voltage regulator pass transistors, and that is what I would
> be fairly sure that the OP's fifth transistor would be.

There's also the fact that there's only one extra transistor. Wouldn't a
two-channel output stage require two?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Laptop not charging.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3f52116e8141f1a4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 7:12 am
From: Jim Yanik

T i m <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote in
news:upg3l6liulqsg01ge9mdnrsus76pf0a3f1@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 08 Feb 2011 10:04:03 -0600, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
> wrote:
>
>>T i m <news@spaced.me.uk> wrote in
>>news:2s61l6lcohoeld1692uo1dsnt9vpahv0n2@4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Tue, 08 Feb 2011 07:49:33 +0800, who where <noone@home.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>> On first use - as they
>>>>>>explained - the Vostro reported a non-genuine PSU but has worked fine
>>>>>>for the last two years.
>>>>>
>>>>>Including charging the battery you mean?
>>>>
>>>>Yes
>>>
>>> Ok ta.
>>>
>>> Thinking outside the box a bit and looking at this external /
>>> universal charger ... if I had a known good Dell battery with the same
>>> parameters as required by the laptop but that just didn't fit /in/ the
>>> laptop a short extension lead might do the trick. Certainly sufficient
>>> enough to ensure it /was/ a battery problem before buying another one?
>>>
>>> Cheers, T i m
>>>
>>> p.s. When I worked for British Telecom (and then later Kodak on their
>>> Microfilm side) we regularly used 'external' cards / cables to allow
>>> us to check the card / module whilst connected to the machine but so
>>> we could still get to it.
>>>
>>
>>perhaps you mean "extender" cards or cables?
>
> Probably but the function of the thing was to make the card / module
> appear /outside/ the unit so it sorta works for me. ;-)
>
> I was thinking that I only need an old (compatible/ Dell) laptop base
> / mobo and I've already got a dead battery and I should be able to put
> something together (in the best Frankenstein stylee). ;-)
>
> Assuming these batteries only report 'I'm a Dell battery' rather than
> "I'm a Dell battery for a Studio 1535 with a pink lid ..."? ;-(
>
> Cheers, T i m
>

I used to build my own custom extenders (and dummy loads for
switchers)while at Tektronix. they helped a lot.
Designers just don't make things accessible like they used to.
or provide useful test points.)

I guess it's part of the "throwaway" culture. :-(

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: ACTRESS LIP KISSING VIDEOS AND BOOP PRESS VIDEOS HERE
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/07d2bbfa75d4dde6?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 8:01 am
From: surya maha

http://www.cinemaulagam.org

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Samsung HP-T5064 Service Notes
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/9c4ddba4bee063e9?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 8:16 am
From: n8ball

Hi all,

A friend of mine has had a lighting hit his house now the samsung
t5064 would turn on....

Anyone have the notes for the this units? I assume its a fus or maybe
a voltage 78xx regulator that got zapped...i haven't seen it in
person yet but hopefully it will at least give me those "beep error"
coes on the front to point the the suspect PCB.

Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

Nate

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Wed, Feb 9 2011 10:39 am
From: Fred

n8ball <natere2ster@gmail.com> wrote in news:28b6a686-ea41-4ace-a630-
e06d0cbca024@z20g2000yqe.googlegroups.com:

> Hi all,
>
> A friend of mine has had a lighting hit his house now the samsung
> t5064 would turn on....
>
> Anyone have the notes for the this units? I assume its a fus or maybe
> a voltage 78xx regulator that got zapped...i haven't seen it in
> person yet but hopefully it will at least give me those "beep error"
> coes on the front to point the the suspect PCB.
>
> Any and all advice is greatly appreciated!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Nate
>

Nope...the whole thing is trashed and should be replaced by his insurance
company. If you touch it, he won't get it replaced as they'll blame you
for its demise, not the power hit. Don't open it. Don't tell them you
already have.....it's toast.

==============================================================================

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