sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Fake Audio Amp IC?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/26c6b4ae574ca1f2?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 12:35 am
From: "Gareth Magennis"

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:8uqb3fFk6rU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Gareth the Menace "
>
>> Is anyone able to tell whether this might or might not be fake?
>
>
> ** It is rare for anyone to set out to manufacture a "fake" electronic
> device for sale - so the terms "fake" and "counterfeit" are misleading.
>
> What IS done is to remove the labelling from a cheap device and re-label
> it as another, more expensive and far more sellable type.
>
> In the case of the STK422 series of modules, the game would be to re-label
> a lower spec part as a higher spec one.
>
> FFS - buy from a trusted local supplier.
>
> Is 10 UK pounds plus VAT too much for a 65 watt per channel stereo power
> amp ??
>
>
> .... Phil
>
>
>
>

I did buy this at Littlediode, (First time I've used them). I am now
wondering if they are indeed a trusted supplier. It was shipped (according
to them) from the far east, taking a week or so to arrive.

I woudln't normally do this, as if it is too good to be true then usually it
is.
Hence me buying another one from HHB who I trust implicitly and will have
sourced the part from Genelec.

Unfortunately I paid more for postage from HHB than the entire Littlediode
transaction cost!

Ho hum, and there's me trying to do the customer a favour.

Thanks for the info, when I get the other one back from the customer I shall
break it open for comparison.

Gareth.

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 1:27 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Gareth the Menace "
> "Phil Allison" "Gareth the Menace "
>>
>>> Is anyone able to tell whether this might or might not be fake?
>>
>>
>> ** It is rare for anyone to set out to manufacture a "fake" electronic
>> device for sale - so the terms "fake" and "counterfeit" are
>> misleading.
>>
>> What IS done is to remove the labelling from a cheap device and
>> re-label it as another, more expensive and far more sellable type.
>>
>> In the case of the STK422 series of modules, the game would be to
>> re-label a lower spec part as a higher spec one.
>>
>> FFS - buy from a trusted local supplier.
>>
>> Is 10 UK pounds plus VAT too much for a 65 watt per channel stereo power
>> amp ??
>>
>
>
> I did buy this at Littlediode, (First time I've used them).

** Are they " the new kids on the block " ??

Avoid them like the plague if they are.

> I am now wondering if they are indeed a trusted supplier. It was shipped
> (according to them) from the far east, taking a week or so to arrive.

** Verrrry suspicious.

Straight from eBay - to you.

> I woudln't normally do this, as if it is too good to be true then usually
> it is.
> Hence me buying another one from HHB who I trust implicitly and will have
> sourced the part from Genelec.
>
> Unfortunately I paid more for postage from HHB than the entire Littlediode
> transaction cost!
>
> Ho hum, and there's me trying to do the customer a favour.
>
>
> Thanks for the info, when I get the other one back from the customer I
> shall break it open for comparison.

** If it is an old example - it will look very different inside.

Probably be no SMD parts used at all.

... Phil

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 2:52 am
From: "Gareth Magennis"

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:8ur4s2Fq75U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Gareth the Menace "
>> "Phil Allison" "Gareth the Menace "
>>>
>>>> Is anyone able to tell whether this might or might not be fake?
>>>
>>>
>>> ** It is rare for anyone to set out to manufacture a "fake" electronic
>>> device for sale - so the terms "fake" and "counterfeit" are
>>> misleading.
>>>
>>> What IS done is to remove the labelling from a cheap device and
>>> re-label it as another, more expensive and far more sellable type.
>>>
>>> In the case of the STK422 series of modules, the game would be to
>>> re-label a lower spec part as a higher spec one.
>>>
>>> FFS - buy from a trusted local supplier.
>>>
>>> Is 10 UK pounds plus VAT too much for a 65 watt per channel stereo power
>>> amp ??
>>>
>>
>>
>> I did buy this at Littlediode, (First time I've used them).
>
> ** Are they " the new kids on the block " ??
>
> Avoid them like the plague if they are.
>
>
>> I am now wondering if they are indeed a trusted supplier. It was shipped
>> (according to them) from the far east, taking a week or so to arrive.
>
>
> ** Verrrry suspicious.
>
> Straight from eBay - to you.
>
>
>> I woudln't normally do this, as if it is too good to be true then usually
>> it is.
>> Hence me buying another one from HHB who I trust implicitly and will have
>> sourced the part from Genelec.
>>
>> Unfortunately I paid more for postage from HHB than the entire
>> Littlediode transaction cost!
>>
>> Ho hum, and there's me trying to do the customer a favour.
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the info, when I get the other one back from the customer I
>> shall break it open for comparison.
>
>
> ** If it is an old example - it will look very different inside.
>
> Probably be no SMD parts used at all.
>
>
>
> ... Phil
>
>
>
>
>

Funny how not even the OEM or replacement Genelec devices have any
manufacturers ID. Doesn't fill me with great confidence, and the Genelecs
are not cheap speakers.

http://www.dawsons.co.uk/acatalog/info_00058481.html

Gareth.

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 3:21 am
From: "Mark Zacharias"

"Gareth Magennis" <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:j7Php.143670$XM7.118285@newsfe18.ams2...
> Hi,
>
> I recently replaced the STK amplifier module in a Genelec speaker. These
> STK modules are not easy to find, but I did find one on the net, delivered
> from the far east, which was a quarter of the price of the official spares
> supplier here in the UK (HHB). I informed the customer prior to order,
> and he was happy to take the much cheaper part.
>
> Anyway it lasted 1 day before failing short circuit. Fortunately the
> drivers are not damaged.
>
>
> There are photos here:
> http://postimage.org/image/1gb2ui0lg/
> http://postimage.org/image/2p2rdrs9w/
>
>
> The new looking part is a new part subsequently ordered from HHB. The old
> one with the mangled legs is the cheap failed device.
>
> Is anyone able to tell whether this might or might not be fake?
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Gareth.

The one WITHOUT the lot number on the back is the real Sanyo part.

Mark Z.

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 3:31 am
From: "Gareth Magennis"

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:4d887834$0$19566$c3e8da3$88b277c5@news.astraweb.com...
> "Gareth Magennis" <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:j7Php.143670$XM7.118285@newsfe18.ams2...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I recently replaced the STK amplifier module in a Genelec speaker. These
>> STK modules are not easy to find, but I did find one on the net,
>> delivered from the far east, which was a quarter of the price of the
>> official spares supplier here in the UK (HHB). I informed the customer
>> prior to order, and he was happy to take the much cheaper part.
>>
>> Anyway it lasted 1 day before failing short circuit. Fortunately the
>> drivers are not damaged.
>>
>>
>> There are photos here:
>> http://postimage.org/image/1gb2ui0lg/
>> http://postimage.org/image/2p2rdrs9w/
>>
>>
>> The new looking part is a new part subsequently ordered from HHB. The
>> old one with the mangled legs is the cheap failed device.
>>
>> Is anyone able to tell whether this might or might not be fake?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> Gareth.
>
>
> The one WITHOUT the lot number on the back is the real Sanyo part.
>
> Mark Z.

Thanks Mark, that's pretty much confirmed my suspicions then.

Gareth.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 3:43 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Mark Zacharias"

>
> The one WITHOUT the lot number on the back is the real Sanyo part.

** Prove it.

.... Phil

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 4:52 am
From: "N_Cook"

Gareth Magennis <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:j7Php.143670$XM7.118285@newsfe18.ams2...
> Hi,
>
> I recently replaced the STK amplifier module in a Genelec speaker. These
> STK modules are not easy to find, but I did find one on the net, delivered
> from the far east, which was a quarter of the price of the official spares
> supplier here in the UK (HHB). I informed the customer prior to order,
and
> he was happy to take the much cheaper part.
>
> Anyway it lasted 1 day before failing short circuit. Fortunately the
> drivers are not damaged.
>
>
> There are photos here:
> http://postimage.org/image/1gb2ui0lg/
> http://postimage.org/image/2p2rdrs9w/
>
>
> The new looking part is a new part subsequently ordered from HHB. The old
> one with the mangled legs is the cheap failed device.
>
> Is anyone able to tell whether this might or might not be fake?
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>
>
> Gareth.
>

I would say the more precise script is on the genuine one. Rougher/less
robust ink is probably on the copies/fakes. At least they did not make sham
logos like the Philips , Fairchild, Linear Technology soics in an MBOX I was
looking in recently

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 4:59 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Nutcase Kook "
>
> I would say ...

** Therein lies the rub....

> the more precise script is on the genuine one.

** ROTFL

Both are rough as guts.

> At least they did not make sham
> logos like the Philips , Fairchild, Linear Technology soics in an MBOX I
> was
> looking in recently

** Not one scrap of proof exists to back that fuckwit assertion up.

... Phil

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 9:08 am
From: Meat Plow

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 11:52:47 +0000, N_Cook wrote:

> Gareth Magennis <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
> news:j7Php.143670$XM7.118285@newsfe18.ams2...
>> Hi,
>>
>> I recently replaced the STK amplifier module in a Genelec speaker.
>> These STK modules are not easy to find, but I did find one on the net,
>> delivered from the far east, which was a quarter of the price of the
>> official spares supplier here in the UK (HHB). I informed the customer
>> prior to order,
> and
>> he was happy to take the much cheaper part.
>>
>> Anyway it lasted 1 day before failing short circuit. Fortunately the
>> drivers are not damaged.
>>
>>
>> There are photos here:
>> http://postimage.org/image/1gb2ui0lg/
>> http://postimage.org/image/2p2rdrs9w/
>>
>>
>> The new looking part is a new part subsequently ordered from HHB. The
>> old one with the mangled legs is the cheap failed device.
>>
>> Is anyone able to tell whether this might or might not be fake?
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>>
>>
>> Gareth.
>>
>>
>
> I would say the more precise script is on the genuine one. Rougher/less
> robust ink is probably on the copies/fakes. At least they did not make
> sham logos like the Philips , Fairchild, Linear Technology soics in an
> MBOX I was looking in recently

They are both genuine. They badge lesser spec'd devices to sell at a
higher amount. I've seen this with projector TV convergence amplifiers.
I try to buy from the manufacturer or a well trusted source.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 9:55 am
From: bob urz

On 3/21/2011 5:28 PM, Gareth Magennis wrote:
>
> Here's a hi res picture of the opened module:
>
>
> http://postimage.org/image/2qgigsn38/
>
>
> What are those things?
>
>
>
> Gareth.

Interesting.

most of the failed power modules i have opened up show clear arcing on
the power device slugs. They look relatively clear on yours.

It does look like a couple of the SMT transistors are damaged.
Its kind of hard to tell from the picture if that's true or it was
damage from prying the case off.

The epoxied power device slug leads do look a little close together
on a couple of the output devices.

bob

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 1:14 pm
From: "Gareth Magennis"

"Gareth Magennis" <sound.service@btconnect.com> wrote in message
news:hiQhp.29782$Xm4.15521@newsfe10.ams2...
>
> Here's a hi res picture of the opened module:
>
>
> http://postimage.org/image/2qgigsn38/
>
>
> What are those things?
>
>
>
> Gareth.

Why would you mount them in a corner rather than the centre of the heatsink?

Gareth.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Oral-b Braun electronic toothbrush problem
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/49caca46fe47e846?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 1:14 am
From: "N_Cook"

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:246fo61qh7hn272c1iaji1mvuo9lcbom29@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 13:42:36 -0400, "(PeteCresswell)" <x@y.Invalid>
> wrote:
>
> >Up 'till then, I'd managed to scrub much of the enamel off of my
> >teeth by brushing too hard.
>
> That's not the brush. It's the abrasive tooth paste. I used to use
> tooth paste to "grind" radio crystals. If it will grind glass, it
> will do the same to your teeth. Use baking soda, or like I do just
> water. Incidentally, I haven't used tooth paste for the last 40+
> years and still have all of my teeth except for one root canal.
> Literally all the dental problems I've had were from undermined
> fillings.
>
> For a possible fix, there's also nano-particle enamel restorer.
> <http://kandaka.com/2006/12/07/nanoparticle-toothpaste-restores-enamel/>
> No clue if it works. It's been around for about 6 years so there
> should be some reports available.
>
> The one redeeming value of a motorized toothbrush is that it's great
> for "stimulating" the gums. While tooth decay is a bummer, having a
> perfectly good tooth fall out because the gum rotted out under it, is
> even worse. Most people are too lazy to run the tooth brush over
> their gums, but a motorized brush makes it easy and quick. If your
> gums bleed when you brush, you're doing it wrong.
>
> I bought some of the Oral-B throw away motorized toothbrushes to try
> them out. Three for $15 at Costco. I think they're discontinued and
> have been replaced by the ones that have a replacable battery. I'm
> waiting for the battery to run down so I can tear it apart and see
> what's inside. Maybe in a month or three.
>
> --
> Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
> 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

While on gums, I was unaware of Teepee interdental brushes until a few years
ago, for those with teeth too close together for flossing.
(also useful for pushing through 1mm holes in relay casings to clean the
contacts)

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 9:10 am
From: Meat Plow

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:14:41 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> I keep my Sonic on the charge all the time when not in use. Use it for
>> 2 minutes twice a day. I'm pretty sure I bought it when they first came
>> out was that 2000 or so?
>
> That seems about right. Maybe a year or two earlier.

Odd you would not be getting the same battery life. Mine has no
indication the charge capacity has been reduced.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: DEALS FOR GIRLS AND BOYS - DATING TIPS - FREE DATING CHAT -JOIN NOW
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/d074951014c5a500?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 1:47 am
From: devi vithya

http://dating4boysandgirls.blogspot.com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Earn Money Easy Just open this link and sign in
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/09ab7ee8a380115b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 3:47 am
From: goki gaya

http://123maza.com/75/family297/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Recommendation for electronics forums?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a2a97ca7806d8277?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Mar 21 2011 7:17 pm
From: mzenier@eskimo.com (Mark Zenier)

In article <nm4do612d064k7c40hvish72v7jaqbfjgf@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Mar 2011 19:39:12 +0000 (UTC), "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"
><gsm@mendelson.com> wrote:
>
>>BTW, did Don Lancaster ever update his "OP Amp Cookbook"?
>>Geoff.
>
>As far as I can determine from Googling, the 3rd and last edition was
>published in 1986.
>
>Hmmm... that's odd. It's not listed:
><http://www.tinaja.com/books/bkdons.asp>

That's because Walter Jung wrote it.

Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com
Googleproofaddress(account:mzenier provider:eskimo domain:com)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Running a PC outside of a computer case
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/767389e3dda5bc79?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 9:22 am
From: Meat Plow

On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:16:06 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:

>> I notice that no one in this whole thread has mentioned taking suitable
>> precautions against causing damage from static discharge!
>
> It's implicit. It's assumed anyone who wants to do this knows the
> routine.

That's what I thought also. You need to be aware of ESD precautions
before you experiment with most modern electronics. I've been using an
anti-static mat and wristband for a good 25 years. I've run my fair share
of computer equipment while testing components using a motherboard set
atop a non-conductive surface.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

== 2 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 12:33 pm
From: Baron

Meat Plow Inscribed thus:

> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:59:29 +0000, Baron wrote:
>
>> D Inscribed thus:
>>
>> I notice that no one in this whole thread has mentioned taking
>> suitable precautions against causing damage from static discharge !
>
> And in your opinion, this indicates what?
>

Ignorance ! An awful lot of the new build failures that I see are from
people who have no understanding of how easy it is to cause damage to
components simply from not being aware that damage can occur during
handling.

It seems that all made the assumption that the OP is aware of this. The
original question suggests that the OP isn't !

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

== 3 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 12:41 pm
From: Baron

Meat Plow Inscribed thus:

> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:16:06 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>>> I notice that no one in this whole thread has mentioned taking
>>> suitable precautions against causing damage from static discharge!
>>
>> It's implicit. It's assumed anyone who wants to do this knows the
>> routine.

I would suspect that based on the OP question, that might not be a safe
assumption.

> That's what I thought also. You need to be aware of ESD precautions
> before you experiment with most modern electronics. I've been using an
> anti-static mat and wristband for a good 25 years. I've run my fair
> share of computer equipment while testing components using a
> motherboard set atop a non-conductive surface.
>

I don't disagree. But then you and I have been doing this kind of work
for a good many years. I'll bet that you will have had odd failures,
particularly in the early years that you couldn't explain. ;-)

--
Best Regards:
Baron.

== 4 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 1:25 pm
From: D

On 3/22/2011 12:41 PM, Baron wrote:
> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:16:06 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>
>>>> I notice that no one in this whole thread has mentioned taking
>>>> suitable precautions against causing damage from static discharge!
>>>
>>> It's implicit. It's assumed anyone who wants to do this knows the
>>> routine.
>
> I would suspect that based on the OP question, that might not be a safe
> assumption.
>
>> That's what I thought also. You need to be aware of ESD precautions
>> before you experiment with most modern electronics. I've been using an
>> anti-static mat and wristband for a good 25 years. I've run my fair
>> share of computer equipment while testing components using a
>> motherboard set atop a non-conductive surface.
>>
>
> I don't disagree. But then you and I have been doing this kind of work
> for a good many years. I'll bet that you will have had odd failures,
> particularly in the early years that you couldn't explain. ;-)
>

I am assuming grounding myself on the grounded PSU case would be
sufficient, correct?

Dan

== 5 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 1:33 pm
From: "William Sommerwerck"

> I am assuming grounding myself on the grounded PSU
> case would be sufficient, correct?

It depends on what you mean by "grounding yourself". Touching the case once
might not be enough, as moving around can generate an electrostatic charge.
The safest thing is to wear a grounded conductive wristband.

== 6 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 2:19 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:33:48 +0000, Baron wrote:

> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 21:59:29 +0000, Baron wrote:
>>
>>> D Inscribed thus:
>>>
>>> I notice that no one in this whole thread has mentioned taking
>>> suitable precautions against causing damage from static discharge !
>>
>> And in your opinion, this indicates what?
>>
>>
> Ignorance ! An awful lot of the new build failures that I see are from
> people who have no understanding of how easy it is to cause damage to
> components simply from not being aware that damage can occur during
> handling.

So that means since you were the only one to pick up on this that
everyone else in SER is ignorant.

Thanks for expressing your true feelings.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

== 7 of 7 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 2:23 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 19:41:27 +0000, Baron wrote:

> Meat Plow Inscribed thus:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2011 17:16:06 -0700, William Sommerwerck wrote:
>>
>>>> I notice that no one in this whole thread has mentioned taking
>>>> suitable precautions against causing damage from static discharge!
>>>
>>> It's implicit. It's assumed anyone who wants to do this knows the
>>> routine.
>
> I would suspect that based on the OP question, that might not be a safe
> assumption.
>
>> That's what I thought also. You need to be aware of ESD precautions
>> before you experiment with most modern electronics. I've been using an
>> anti-static mat and wristband for a good 25 years. I've run my fair
>> share of computer equipment while testing components using a
>> motherboard set atop a non-conductive surface.
>>
>>
> I don't disagree. But then you and I have been doing this kind of work
> for a good many years. I'll bet that you will have had odd failures,
> particularly in the early years that you couldn't explain. ;-)

I've damaged things with ESD. Just because myself or anyone else didn't
bring it up in this thread until you did does not make you any better.
Comprende?

I found your reply a bit acerbic and degrading to the group denizens who
might have a few hundred years of combined electronics service
experience.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: HDTV has no sound
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3a7aee93765769fb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 9:25 am
From: Meat Plow

On Tue, 22 Mar 2011 00:07:02 +0000, vjp2.at wrote:

> Actually very faint sound at max vol w earphone but effectively silent.
>
> It can't be the speakers because it does the same with two
> different"speakers".
>
> AM I right to think it is a capacitor in the amp circuit? The reason I
> doubt is it does not respond to hitting/shaking. THe other thing is the
> faint sound at high volume doesn't match past experience with amp
> capacitor burnout.
>
> THe unit is a Supersonic 7" 193a HDTV with a 12v power adaptor.
>
> PS, is there any "electronics repair rules of thumb" cheat sheet
> anywhere?

Getting you to the proper documentation would depend on your current
understanding of electronics.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Found: Datasheet collection.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b3ca7d80ed8ec6aa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Tues, Mar 22 2011 2:11 pm
From: "Ian Field"

http://datasheets.pl/

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sci.electronics.repair - 25 new messages in 8 topics - digest

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