sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Toroidal mains Tx inrush limiter - retrofit - 2 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/da7ba841cd54d76f?hl=en
* Backwards electrolytics (again) - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/1ce61685a5164a31?hl=en
* Foregoing warranty rights - 5 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/db33289fb500ca5c?hl=en
* motherboard RAM failures - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3e25b3ae78058770?hl=en
* OT: Temperature control group? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0de471c409570c55?hl=en
* (paypal payment)( http://www.24hours-online.com/) cheap wholesale ED hardy
Christan Audigier,LV,BOSS etc. brand caps hat belts and other products free
shipping - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a429e2a1171d4501?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Toroidal mains Tx inrush limiter - retrofit
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/da7ba841cd54d76f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 4:58 pm
From: Grant

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 11:12:22 -0700, dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt) wrote:

>>>> Then what causes my bulk eraser to shut off when it overheats
>>>> -- then come back when it cools off?
>>
>>> That's a resettable *thermal* fuse, NOT a fuse designed for
>>> overcurrent protection.
>>
>>I had always thought that at least some polyfuses /were/ resettable.
>
>Polyfuses (in the sense of the term I've always heard used) are
>self-resetting, unless you hit 'em so hard that you damage them.
>
>They aren't designed for use at mains voltages/currents, though... at
>least, I haven't seen any that are.

Me neither, other thing with polyfuses is that there's approx 2:1 current
difference between trigger point and hold point. I have 16V and 30V poly-
fuses here, generally for 12V or 24V SLA battery powered gear.
>
>The self-resetting thermal "fuses" that you'd find in a bulk eraser or
>similar "not intended for a 100% duty cycle - let it cool down!"
>device are (I think) of the bimetallic type, somewhat akin to what you
>would find in a traditional wall thermostat.

Some are the same thing as used in clothes dryer for thermostat, 100% duty
cycle for years on end ;) Lower temperature for thermostat and a higher
temp one for overheat safety cutout.

Grant.

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 5:25 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Grant"
>
>>They aren't designed for use at mains voltages/currents, though... at
>>least, I haven't seen any that are.
>
> Me neither, other thing with polyfuses is that there's approx 2:1 current
> difference between trigger point and hold point.

** That is utterly misleading !!

There are no separate trigger and hold points with PolySwitches.

The makers specs allow for some device to device variation in the actual
current level that will trigger a RANGE of similar devices to change state
and go high resistance.

The max current that fails to trip all examples of a given type is called: "
I Hold ".

The minimum current that will trip all examples of a given type is called: "
I Trip".

" I Trip " is double " I Hold".

For any given device, the trip current is one number.

Once a device has tripped, the current needed to HOLD it in the new state is
a function of the applied voltage and is generally 5 to 20 times less than
the trip current.

.... Phil

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Backwards electrolytics (again)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/1ce61685a5164a31?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 5:14 pm
From: Jim Yanik

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in
news:mfs9p6pgv82s5edol45usqnlojh1d8nbca@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 09:24:40 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com>
> wrote:
>
>>An infra-red camera might be of use...or wet-touch each cap after its
>>been running a while (without exploding).
>
> I use a cheap IR thermometer with a bit of creative optics to narrow
> the viewing angle, or a thermocouple thermometer. I need my finger
> tips functional for playing piano, organ, synth, etc. What I found
> odd on the GX-520 board with the backwards capacitors, was that they
> did NOT become warm:
><http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/msg/feb66e8acd3d4
>6a4>
> I measured the temperature and the capacitors were the same
> temperature as the surroundings. I would have expected them to get
> warm, but apparently not. My guess(tm) is that the plastic insulator,
> between the foil wraps and the aluminum case, is also a fair thermal
> insulator. While the electrolyte is getting hot and boiling off
> belching gasses, there is little heat transfer to the case.
>
> If you haven't broken it and then fixed it, you don't understand it.
>

They now make "fairly low cost" handheld IR scopes for firefighting use;
I saw one demonstrated on the local TV news,and it was sensitive enough to
see a 3-sec handprint on a wall. It could easily show up hot components on
a PCB.It was the size of a handheld portable spotlight. It might be
worthwhile reaserching,particularly if one has a small production business.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 7:53 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 09:23:51 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

>"Jeff Liebermann"

>> My guess(tm) is that the plastic insulator,
>> between the foil wraps and the aluminum case, is also a fair thermal
>> insulator. While the electrolyte is getting hot and boiling off
>> belching gasses, there is little heat transfer to the case.
>
>** No way - boiling electrolyte would make the whole cap too hot to touch.
>Electro caps are almost like living things - when faced with reverse
>polarity, they try to re-form as reversed caps. There is a limit, of course
>and much heat will be generated if the voltage is more than a few volts.

Ok. I was assuming that the gas necessary to blow the lid off the
capacitor and spew brown goo was accompanied by heating. That seems
to be a bad assumption as the gases can probably be produced without
any heat. Time for a reverse polarity bench test with the proper
instrumentation. (Probably this weekend).

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 8:21 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:14:31 -0500, Jim Yanik <jyanik@abuse.gov>
wrote:

>They now make "fairly low cost" handheld IR scopes for firefighting use;
>I saw one demonstrated on the local TV news,and it was sensitive enough to
>see a 3-sec handprint on a wall. It could easily show up hot components on
>a PCB.It was the size of a handheld portable spotlight. It might be
>worthwhile reaserching,particularly if one has a small production business.

FLIR makes these:
<http://www.flir.com>
Their lowest cost model is about $1000. Office next door does home
energy assessments and has one of these.
<http://www.flir.com/thermography/americas/us/content/?id=24072>
However, they won't let me borrow it any more after it got trashed by
someone else. While I had it, it was wonderful for finding shorted
power supply traces, overheating components, and CPU cooling problems.
I don't see myself spending $1000 for one in the near future.

However, I have built several IR flying spot scanners, that might
suffice. Basically just a far infrared photo detector chip, a
rotating mirror ripped out of a laser printer or supermarket scanner,
and some optics. I've built several of these over the years, with
assorted problems. All of them worked, but the response time was
awful compared to the various FLIR arrays. Thermal noise was also
bad.
<http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.equipment/browse_thread/thread/92c3879a53a8f9f1>

The problem was that the caps really did not get warm. Per comments
by Phil Allison, little heat is not required to produce the gasses
that a bulging the case. I don't think the FLIR camera will show
anything useful.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Foregoing warranty rights
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/db33289fb500ca5c?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 5:16 pm
From: Jeff Urban

"they'll
forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
person like me. "

I don't think that should be called disreputable. If you mean
disreputable with the manufacturer, just how reputable are they ? This
is not an automatic toenail polisher, some people actually use tools
to make money. If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
is disreputable about that ?

Know why I don't buy tools from Sears, a reputable compnay ? Well they
used to Xray their handtools and they never broke (almost). That was
fine with me. But they stopped. Now I have been under a car with a
transmission on my chest. What good is a warranty then ? I need the
tool NOW. What's more a coworker and I bought Craftsman drill/drivers.
The triggers would always fail. They weren't covered and we payed out
of pocket for them, AND had to change them ourselves. About the third
or fourth trip that guy asks " What are you doing to this thing ? ".
Smitty answered "Work". The guy says "If I knew you were going to use
it for work I would've sold you the Makita".

My car doesn't run. Now why the hell do you think I got in my car ? I
wanted to go somewhere. I don't care about the friggin million mile
warranty, I only want to go ten miles let's say. But I want to go
there now. If I wanted to get there WHENEVER I wouldn't need a car,
just call a cab, take a bus or a bicycle, maybe even walk. If I wanted
to walk I wouldn't have given you all that damn money.

Get the point ?

J

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 5:48 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Jeff Urban"
>"Jeff Liebermann"
>
> "they'll
> forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
> person like me. "
>
> I don't think that should be called disreputable. If you mean
> disreputable with the manufacturer, just how reputable are they ?

** Think Jeff L had his tongue firmly in his cheek when he referred to
himself as "disreputable".

Because Jeff L has apparently not sought or been granted "Authorised
Repairer " status for any brands - he might be seen as disreputable by
some people. As with many things, the direct opposite is actually the case.

So called "Authorised Repairers" are under the most odious kinds of contract
which force them to become aligned with the maker's or importer's demands
and whims rather than their own or their customer's natural interests.

Few if any customers understand this difference and falsely imagine they are
still dealing with a normal repairer.

A normal repairer charges for every job, will tell customers what they found
wrong and how to avoid a repeat. They also do their best to avoid returns
under repair warranties - so shonky " patch up " repairs are just not on.
If the item is clearly a lemon, they will gently point that out too.

OTOH contract warranty repairers do not charge, tell the customer nothing
( or else a pack of bull ) and do work that need only last until the maker's
warranty period expires. They will not openly criticise anything sold under
the brand names they are contracted to work on - no matter how awful it is.

IOW, a contracted repairer is at permanently at war with his own customers.

I can hardly imagine any situation more *disreputable*.

.... Phil

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 6:27 pm
From: Jeff Urban

"So called "Authorised Repairers" are under the most odious kinds of
contract "

You can say that again. But again the so called benefits being an
illusion will show sooner or later. The key is understanding the goal.
I am still a serviceman, but I am also a businessman now. I don't put
my name on things, but I am involved. Any ASC would cringe at some of
the things I've done. Though few or none were in the capacity of an
ASC, my loyaly always resided with the customer. That's MY customer,
untill I might need to correspond with a manufacturer, then they are
"our" customer. It can almost be said that to be honest one needs to
be dishonest.

I have realized that the goals of the manufacturer are daimetrically
opposed to those of the servicer. They have always acted in that
fashion because the goal has not changed. The methods now are
overcomplication and planned obsolescense. These are alot harder to
fight, but what else will we do ?

They are getting good, and some make it now by swapping boards. They
are so good that it is getting hard to tell which board to swap. In
the old days you could make money with a bag of 6GH8s, but now to get
the right board you might have to know if the set was built on a
Monday or a Thursday. Change is not for the sake of change, it is for
the sake of currency.

EVERY time their product is repaired, they lose out on a sale. They
have formed conglomerates and cooperations, but don't dare use the
word conspiracy unless you are among those priveledged to define it.
This country is a dumping ground. A DLP sold around Easter fails
around Thanksgiving the same year. Parts are no longer available. The
customer is told by the Attourney General's office that if he pursues
his own claim he is excluded from any possible class action lawsuit.
Who's side are they on ? They are effectively preventing lawsuits
which would be a matter of public record.

I have thought this out stem to stern in my 35 years in the business,
and I think my conclusions sound. Nothing will happen without
legislation. Some places in Europe have product support laws, and
lower prescription prices (let's just not go there right now). But
somehow these companiers can make money there. It's just that they can
make more money here.

Forcing the issue, well it makes no sense. It will happen anyway, TVs
costing two grand are junk in a year ? How long do you think people
are going to put up with that with no secure jobs, and therefore no
stable and sustainable credit ? And even with that, what happens when
they are paying off goods that have been in a dumpster for a year ?

I say let it happen by itself. And that is my considered conclusion. A
few will hang on, and we'll be well better off for it. Don't get mad,
get bad.

Call me irreptutable.

J

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 8:44 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:16:57 -0700 (PDT), Jeff Urban
<jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote:

>"they'll
>forego the warranty and deal with a disreputable but fast repair
>person like me. "
>
>I don't think that should be called disreputable. If you mean
>disreputable with the manufacturer, just how reputable are they ?

From the manufacturers point of view, there are two types of repair
shops. Those that have elected to jump through the hoops and
obstacles of the authorized dealer network, and everyone else. Since
I'm not authorized by any company to do anything, I'm in the latter
category and considered to be de facto incompetent due to the lack of
training that usually comes with being authorized.
<http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto>

>This
>is not an automatic toenail polisher, some people actually use tools
>to make money. If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
>is disreputable about that ?

The lack of a certificate from the manufacturer attesting to my
competence. I've never found it really necessary to be authorized,
blessed, or otherwise approved for any manner of repair. When I've
actually tried to become and authorized dealer or repair center, I
usually manage to make a muddle of it.

>Know why I don't buy tools from Sears, a reputable compnay ?

Times have changed. These days, everything is made in China. If you
want quality, look elsewhere but at perhaps 5-10 times the price. I
have my set of Craftsman hand tools from the 1970's, that have never
failed. I don't loan those to anyone. I have my assortment of Home
Depot junk tools, that I'm more than happy to loan to the neighborhood
kids, knowing that they'll get trashed. However, I can buy 5 of those
for the price of one real Proto hand tool.

Incidentally, I use quite a few Craftsman 8" #2 Philips (41296) screw
drivers. I recently bought two from the local Sears store, where I
had to regrind the tip so that it would properly fit a #2 screw head.

>Get the point ?

Nope. You're worrying about the wrong things. The real problem, in
my never humble opinion, is not product quality, but that we're
putting high tech devices in the hands of people with no clue how to
use them, much less how to take care of them. The only way to avoid
the necessary education, while still supplying the absolute cheapest
product, it with a warranty. In short, a warranty is being supplied
in place of a quality product and a consumer education system.

My favorite example is the cell phone. I have a small side business
repairing these and supplying spares and replacements. None of them
are built to be repaired, so that's a challenge. Yet, the condition
of most of the phones I see are so bad, that were it any other
product, I would claim that the owner was intentionally abusing the
device. With an average lifetime of about 18 months for a consumer
dumb phone, the level of quality need not be much above minimal.

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com jeffl@cruzio.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 9:39 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Jeff Liebermann"
" Jeff Urban"
>
>>If they need it and you fix it, and they pay you - WHAT
>>is disreputable about that ?
>
> The lack of a certificate from the manufacturer attesting to my
> competence.

** ROTFL - I doubt there is even one importer or manufacturer in Australia
capable of making that determination with any accuracy. After all, how
would any of them know ?? They are NOT operating repair businesses, have
no understanding of them and generally take no interest in the topic.

Anecdote:

One time, back in the 80s, I worked for a repair business that had
"authorised" service arrangements for several brands of guitar amp -
including Marshall, Acoustic and ELFA.

The Greek lunatic who imported Acoustic into Australia decided that he could
" micro-manage " the servicing of his brand by making up " kits " of spare
parts that all service techs would have to buy to repair various classes of
fault. All one needed to do was tell HIM the fault scenario and he would
nominate the kit that you needed to purchase. Ordering individual parts as
required was simply no longer an option.

He claimed to me on the phone that all the auto importers and makers were
doing the same thing and it was more " efficient ". Soooo, I told him about
the fault in the unit I had on the bench - that it suffered from loud,
very intermittent crackling noises. After a long pause, he said to ship the
unit down to him, in Melbourne, 500 miles away.

The boss and I did no such stupid thing, of course.

Anecdote 2.

A Melbourne based maker of guitar amps ( ELFA) had issues with their latest
models:

1. The quad op-amps ( all RC4136s) in the pre-amp section were from a faulty
batch ( rejects?) with about a 50% failure rate in the first 3 months. The
maker had earmarked all their remaining stock for manufacture and REFUSED to
supply any spares to us for warranty repairs.

2. Some nut case, probably as an after thought, had fitted stereo headphone
sockets to the amps with no series limiting resistors. The left and right
earphone connections were simply linked to the internal amplifier module and
the speaker connected itself when there was no plug in place.

Soooo, soon as anyone plugged a mono jack into the headphone socket - bang
went the Sanken 60 watt amp module inside. Then, soon as the mono plug was
removed, a 40 volt DC rail was linked to the 12 inch speaker and burnt it
out.

The 12 inch speaker was made right here in Sydney and despite the scenario
being non warrantee, the people in Melbourne wanted US to send the 6 kg
wrecks down to them for appraisal before they would agree to supply a new
one.

The boss told them to shove it.

From then on, we sourced all needed parts ourselves ( including speakers)
got Marshall and Fender mains and output transformers re-wound as needed and
saved ourselves and our customers a lot of grief. We did no more warranty
work.

..... Phil

==============================================================================
TOPIC: motherboard RAM failures
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3e25b3ae78058770?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 7:52 pm
From: Smitty Two

In article <oui6p6l2pbc53qa6mbghk2q5vfam21qq2u@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

> Are you overclocking the CPU speed?
> What is the speed rating of the DDR3 RAM? It should be PC3-?????

well, I'm not doing anything with the dang computers other than putting
them together. I'm pretty sure the customer isn't overclocking them.

I'll try to rustle up some more specs on the RAM.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Temperature control group?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0de471c409570c55?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, Mar 31 2011 7:56 pm
From: Smitty Two

Would appreciate any suggestions for newsgroups appropriate to discuss
temperature control systems.

(On the off chance that any experts are lurking here, what I'm really
after are suggestions for the *easiest to use* 1/4 DIN, PID ramp/soak
units with PC software to facilitate writing and storing ramp/soak
routines.)

==============================================================================
TOPIC: (paypal payment)( http://www.24hours-online.com/) cheap wholesale ED
hardy Christan Audigier,LV,BOSS etc. brand caps hat belts and other products
free shipping
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a429e2a1171d4501?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
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