sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Problem with Atmel micro in a Kaon TV decoder - 4 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/d5fa629ff20dbe40?hl=en
* Mopar model 812 car radio, (early 1950's Chrysler product) - 1 messages, 1
author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3135639c17d6af1d?hl=en
* instructor's solutions manual for Design of Reinforced Concrete, 8th Ed by
McCormac, Brown - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e63a75f056bd9f0d?hl=en
* A specific PCB bad practise, term for it ? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8689adb4b80bfe29?hl=en
* Annoying Clock on Microwave - 5 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/408849711f765a28?hl=en
* Lead free solder - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/7ff46ef49e9b7de3?hl=en
* LM386 chip amp picks up radio interference. - 5 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/809031519d942490?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Problem with Atmel micro in a Kaon TV decoder
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/d5fa629ff20dbe40?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 3:42 pm
From: Rich Webb

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 12:53:45 -0700 (PDT), Jeroni Paul
<JERONI.PAUL@terra.es> wrote:

>On 23 abr, 19:31, Rich Webb <bbew...@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:
>> Hold it in a reset state longer on startup. These guys are unusual in
>> that their RST pin is active high, so keep that in mind.
>>
>> The naive way to implement reset in this family is just a cap to the
>> positive supply rail, a resistor to ground, and the RST pin in between.
>> If this is what they used, it sounds like you're just on the edge of
>> reliability and may be able to make it happy by boosting the RC time
>> constant a tad by using a larger C or R, depending on which is easier to
>> get to.
>>
>> There are also "supervisory" chips that are more reliable and can also
>> take care to reset on brown-outs. Some of these hold reset active for a
>> fixed interval but, IIRC, some set the time with an external R or C.
>>
>> --
>> Rich Webb     Norfolk, VA
>
>Thank you for the replies.
>I tried to keep the reset input active manually for several seconds
>but still behaves the same. What happens while RST is high is the
>micro sets some outputs high and turns on all the hardware. When I
>remove RST all comes back to st-by. From then on the behaviour is the
>same. For reset it uses a KIA7436P:
>http://www.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/pdf/69424/KEC/KIA7436P.html

Humph. So much for the easy fix. ;-)

Any chance that the manufacturer has a firmware fix for this? The
AT89S52 is in-system programmable so it might be possible to load new
firmware in the field. If there is such a thing available they may not
want to release it to an end user (too much chance of bricking the unit)
but you sound like you know what you're doing and *if* there is one
available you might be able to convince them you're okay.

Otherwise, it may be time to get creative. One possibility might be to
run the CPU at a slightly slower speed by increasing the load capacitors
at the crystal. Or, replace the 12 MHz crystal with an 11.0592 MHz
(should be available). Might work, depending on what other timing
sensitive parts that it talks to.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:56 pm
From: Jamie

Jeroni Paul wrote:

> On 23 abr, 19:58, Jamie
> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>
>>Look on the board that has the micro for some electro caps. I work with
>>those types of CPU's and what I have done for a synchronized start up
>>is to employ a delay circuit for the CPU, a sort of power management
>>process. Check the caps to make all are up to snuff.. A low valued
>>cap is going the allow the CPU to start sooner in the power management
>>section. If this is a new problem, either the main unit is taking too
>>long, indicating a hardware problem or you do have something strange
>>going on. You may want to check for bad caps and solder joints, a very
>>common problem. Especially with today's Lead Free solders.
>>
>>Jamie
>
>
> Thank you.
> There are two electrolytics, one in parallell with 5V supply and
> another after a 47 ohm resistor to supply the IR sensor. There are
> some resistors to power the leds and buttons and I see no other
> components that could be used for a delay.
>
> This micro is connected to a VFD driver chip to show the time, channel
> number, etc to a VFD display. While starting it shows some moving
> dashes on the 7-segment part, then the text "on" and then reboots. If
> it doesn't reboot then shows "Init" and the last channel number. There
> is no visible difference in the moving dashes between a good and a
> failed initialization but when it starts fine, the "on" text keeps
> slightly longer on the display, around 1 additional second, being all
> the signals it receives from the main unit the same. This additional
> one second is what makes the difference.
It sounds like a Lead free solder joint problem.. If you can yourself
a hot air gun ( not a hair dyer, not hot enough), you can maybe fix this
problem by concentrating hot air on the suspected. Its very hard to see
defected Lead free joints. Also from what you are saying it almost
sounds like the problem is down on the main board.

Jamie

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:58 pm
From: Jeroni Paul

On 24 abr, 00:42, Rich Webb <bbew...@mapson.nozirev.ten> wrote:
> Humph. So much for the easy fix.  ;-)
>
> Any chance that the manufacturer has a firmware fix for this? The
> AT89S52 is in-system programmable so it might be possible to load new
> firmware in the field. If there is such a thing available they may not
> want to release it to an end user (too much chance of bricking the unit)
> but you sound like you know what you're doing and *if* there is one
> available you might be able to convince them you're okay.
>
> Otherwise, it may be time to get creative. One possibility might be to
> run the CPU at a slightly slower speed by increasing the load capacitors
> at the crystal. Or, replace the 12 MHz crystal with an 11.0592 MHz
> (should be available). Might work, depending on what other timing
> sensitive parts that it talks to.
>
> --
> Rich Webb     Norfolk, VA

Unfortunately Kaon appears to have removed any support for this model
from their web and months ago I sent them an email asking for a
firmware upgrade and got no reply.
When this box was given to me it had an older firmware version and it
was so buggy it rendered the box useless, this is why it was given to
me. In that time some channels started transmitting some sort of DVB
subtitles that caused it to hang. I upgraded the firmware to the
latest I could find out there and that fixed many bugs including the
hang with subtitles. I then noticed the reboot problem, but I don't
know if it existed with the previous firmware. Since it was so
intermittent and difficult to trace I decided to keep using the
decoder and see if it would get worse or fail completely but after two
years it has not changed its behavior.
Now that you mention the firmware I will look at it again. Maybe I
should try to install some intermediate version in the hope it will
upgrade the code in the Atmel. Maybe I jumped too far from a too old
version.

If it were easier to remove the crystal I would have already tried a
lower frequency one but it is sandwiched under the VFD panel. I tried
to put a lower frequency crystal in parallel to the current one but it
makes no difference, maybe the current one has lower impedance? Anyway
I think lowering the frequency will break programmed recordings which
is one of the interesting features of this decoder, since the Atmel
keeps a clock and at least the time it has to power on to start a
recording (I believe programmed recordings work this way since it is
the only alive processor while in st-by). By the way, when it awakes
to perform a programmed recording it has the same reboot behavior.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 7:01 pm
From: Rich Webb

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 17:58:22 -0700 (PDT), Jeroni Paul
<JERONI.PAUL@terra.es> wrote:

>If it were easier to remove the crystal I would have already tried a
>lower frequency one but it is sandwiched under the VFD panel. I tried
>to put a lower frequency crystal in parallel to the current one but it
>makes no difference, maybe the current one has lower impedance? Anyway
>I think lowering the frequency will break programmed recordings which
>is one of the interesting features of this decoder, since the Atmel
>keeps a clock and at least the time it has to power on to start a
>recording (I believe programmed recordings work this way since it is
>the only alive processor while in st-by). By the way, when it awakes
>to perform a programmed recording it has the same reboot behavior.

Hmmm. May have to sleep on this one.

Does the processor's oscillator stay running while the device is in
standby? The 89S52 does have a sleep mode where it turns the oscillator
off but if it is responsible for waking up the rest of the device then
I'd guess that it must stay running.

If the oscillator stays running, given that the problem behavior also
occurs when it goes to wake up the rest of the system from a state where
it itself has already initialized, then it does sound like a firmware
problem. Might be something like: wait for N timer ticks and if X has
not happened then perform error recovery; but the actual time between N
ticks can range from (N-1) to (N+1) if the waiting started just before
or just after a tick event.

--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Mopar model 812 car radio, (early 1950's Chrysler product)
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3135639c17d6af1d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 3:49 pm
From: klem kedidelhopper

On Apr 20, 6:38 pm, Meat Plow <mhywa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 11:53:34 -0700, spamtrap1888 wrote:
> > On Apr 20, 11:03 am, PeterD <pet...@hipson.net> wrote:
> >> On 4/20/2011 1:55 PM, Meat Plow wrote:
>
> >> > On Wed, 20 Apr 2011 05:29:17 -0700, klem kedidelhopper wrote:
>
> >> >> On Apr 20, 6:56 am, "Colin Horsley"<horsley-s...@westnet.com.au>
> >> >>  wrote:
> >> >>> "klem kedidelhopper"<captainvideo462...@gmail.com>  wrote in
> >> >>> message
>
> >> >>> news:a5b8ddea-d0b2-40c4-b137-
> >> > f151d4146...@r6g2000vbz.googlegroups.com...
> >> >>> : It seems like everything coming in here lately is other than TV :
> >> >>> repairs. But TV's are getting so cheap now and as a consequence
> >> >>> things : are so slow I hate to turn anything away these days.This
> >> >>> is a six volt : positive ground radio out of an early 1950's
> >> >>> Chrysler product. Tubes : light up but vibrator will not buzz. I
> >> >>> pulled the vibrator and : connected the coil terminals up to six
> >> >>> volts and it does buzz. Not : conclusive but at the very least it
> >> >>> tells me that six volts is not : reaching the coil. Does anyone
> >> >>> have a schematic for this radio, or do : you know where I might
> >> >>> find one? The owner just bought the car, is : restoring it and
> >> >>> really wants to keep it original, so he'd really like : to have
> >> >>> this radio working. Thanks, Lenny
>
> >> >>> Look here for your vibrator:-
>
> >> >>>http://www.radiosforoldcars.com/vibrators.htm
>
> >> >>> Colin in AUS
>
> >> >> Thanks for all the info guys.I don't know for certain yet if I need
> >> >> a vibrator but I do need to order a schematic. Lenny
>
> >> > Pull the vibrator out of its case and look for welded contacts. Lots
> >> > of times they can be separated and dressed with a relay file or fine
> >> > emery nail file. Sometimes you can even bang on the vibrator and
> >> > loosen the contacts if they aren't stuck together badly. I ran across
> >> > this Youtube video some while back. It will help you immensly
>
> >> >http://youtu.be/Fp6PkRTmb8U
>
> >> yes, this can work. I've repaired a few over the years by disassembling
> >> and using an auto points file on the contacts. They are usually easy to
> >> take apart, too.
>
> > Guys, the OP says his vibrator buzzes when he applies 6 volts directly
> > to it. That argues that the vibrator is not the problem, but that
> > there's an open circuit between the power supply and the vibrator.
>
> > I would suspect that either the socket contacts or the pins on the
> > vibrator are corroded.
>
> That's right, missed it. The video I posted can be used to troubleshoot
> it further, the circuits are all pretty basic.
>
> --
> Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

Thanks everyone for the response I
just came home from the hospital after having my hip replaced so I've
been away from my repairs and this group for a few days. Lucky my shop
is in my home so when I do feel like it I can try to get back to work.
I did get the Sams from a guy in another group and I also got the
vibrator to vibrate and the radio to work somewhat
before I left. Possibly it was the rapping on the can that started it
up. I also had some buzzing in the speaker and bridged an electrolytic
across one of the terminals of the three section cap in the radio
which improved it. So I'll replace that and possibly cut the vibrator
open when I feel better. I remember doing that MANY years ago. Wow
this thing draws 6.50 amps at 6,0 volts! I guess it HAS been a long
time....Lenny
-
BTW thanks Meat Plow for the redirect to the video. It was a real good
review.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: instructor's solutions manual for Design of Reinforced Concrete, 8th Ed
by McCormac, Brown
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/e63a75f056bd9f0d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 4:24 pm
From: ronald manual

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: A specific PCB bad practise, term for it ?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8689adb4b80bfe29?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:04 pm
From: Jim Yanik

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in news:iouqr0$pl0$1@dont-email.me:

> Where holes are drilled for thru-board components but of diameter far
> too big , thru-hole plated , but no eyelet/inserts used to fill the
> gap. So 1N4001 size leads in holes twice their diameter and 1N4148 in
> holes twice their diameter. So not a case of only one drill size for
> all. So in area terms about 1 to 4 ratio of lead to solder. Bad
> enough practise with proper solder but with PbF, ring cracks starting
> all over. Is it to avoid mutiny by the by-hand board populators ?
>
>
>

perhaps PCBs designed for machine parts insertion have those sort of
"oversize" thru-holes? Perhaps the insertion machine prefers big holes and
besides,they crimp over the leads anyways. Maybe it's too much trouble to
drill PCBs for different size thru-holes,and/or not worth the effort.

certainly stocking and inserting eyelets would be an additional,unnecessary
expense.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Annoying Clock on Microwave
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/408849711f765a28?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 5:58 pm
From: John Tserkezis

William Sommerwerck wrote:

> "John Tserkezis" <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4db34c2b$0$13392$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
>> You mean you had a VCR that *DIDN'T* flash 12:00 all day?
>
> Most Public TV stations broadcast time code. The "later" VHS VCRs searched
> for a PBS station and used the time code to set the clock.

Sorry, my email addy doesn't show it, but I'm in Australia. I've
verified that timing codes are NOT sent by ANY networks here.
More so, of the few that knew what I was talking about, said they had
heard of it, but no, they did not, and never will support it.

That was about a decade ago while digital terrestrial TV was still a
bit experimental here, but even then, I don't know of any digital PVRs
today that maintain time that way.
There's the odd one out that does NTP if they're 'net connected, but
everything else relies on standard crystal clocked circuits.
Probably a bad example though. At that that level of complexity,
no-one in their right mind would go to the trouble of mains-locking a
clock, when implementing a single-chip Real Time Clock is so much
easier. Especially so when RTC functionality is built into other multi
purpose chips.

I suppose this comes down to the question of is mains locking "good
enough"?
Since I can't get a clear answer from anyone, I'm staying with crystals
or NTP where applicable.
--
OUCH! Got my floppy caught in my PKZipper!

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 6:10 pm
From: John Tserkezis

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> ... Find the frequency, identify the
> CPU, and install a replacement resonator.
> <http://www.tdk.com/crdata.php>

At this price-point, there is no "CPU" to look for. They're all Chip
On Board designs (the black blob on the PCB itself).

The resonator would be a separate component, and I wouldn't think that
an RC oscillator would be good enough to keep mere minutes within a day
anyway.

Besides simply replacing the resonator probably wouldn't show any
significant improvement. You'd need to go all out and use an
upper-market crystal, associated oscillator (with fine tuning) and drive
the clock that way. Would likely need some divider in there too if you
can't match the frequency otherwise.

And now you're starting to lean into the "not worth it" territory.
--
No matter where you go, there you are.

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:00 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 11:10:13 +1000, John Tserkezis
<jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

>Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
>> ... Find the frequency, identify the
>> CPU, and install a replacement resonator.
>> <http://www.tdk.com/crdata.php>
>
> At this price-point, there is no "CPU" to look for. They're all Chip
>On Board designs (the black blob on the PCB itself).

Are you sure? I haven't repaired enough modern microwave ovens to
even have an opinion, but I have yet to see such a PCB. The problem
is that there are usually a mess of wires that need to connect to
various components in the microwave oven. Handling a black glob PCB
usually breaks the wire bonds. Black glob boards are usually more
suitable for enclosed devices and robotic assembly such as
calculators.

I also gave myself a Google Images tour of "microwave oven PCB" and
variations. There were only about 50 assorted images of such PCB's
and none of them showed a black glob.

>The resonator would be a separate component, and I wouldn't think that
>an RC oscillator would be good enough to keep mere minutes within a day
>anyway.

They're available in surface mount packages and are difficult to
distinguish from a large capacitor.

>Besides simply replacing the resonator probably wouldn't show any
>significant improvement.

I beg to differ. It's probably off frequency for some reason, and
would bring it closer to acceptable. 120 seconds per day is lousy. 40
seconds per day might be a little less lousy.

>You'd need to go all out and use an
>upper-market crystal, associated oscillator (with fine tuning) and drive
>the clock that way. Would likely need some divider in there too if you
>can't match the frequency otherwise.

Yep. However, if the CPU can be identified, the data sheet usually
has instructions for using the internal clock oscillator with either
crystal, ceramic resonator, or external input. At worst, it would
involve also changing 2 capacitors.

> And now you're starting to lean into the "not worth it" territory.

I've been there many times. I'm one of those compulsive repairmen
that insists on fixing things, even if they're not profitable.
Personally, I like the ceramic resonator type real time clocks because
when the power dies, and if they have a backup battery, they keep
running. Unfortunately, most microwave ovens don't even have a big
capacitor to keep the time during minor power interruptions, so it's
kinda a wasted preference.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:23 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"John Tserkezis is a MASSIVE JERK"
>
>> So you live in a place _not_ on the grid?
>
> Sigh.
>
> I do live on the grid.

** He lives in Sydney - same as me.

> I, along with everyone else was promised that
> while short term timing errors on the grid are expected, longer term
> errors are tweaked and by far less.
> I could have lived with this if they actually meant it.

** The do actually - fuckhead.

>
> However, in real life, it's STILL not good enough for clocks. Like I
> said, I have many non-temperature crystal locked clocks that are by FAR
> better.

** That is complete bollocks.

>
> I have cheap Chinese digital watches (NOT on my wrist) at the whim of
> the seasonal temperature environment that have minor seasonal shifts,
> but over the year are better than mains-locked clocks.

** The problem is not with the frequency of the AC supply.

> I can't even get a straight answer googling. Lots of nice graphs that
> really don't answer the question too. The BEST was along the lines of
> "is very precise" and "it shouldn't vary too far".
>
> In engineering terms, that's just plain bullshit.

** The supply grid has absolutely precise time keeping over the long term.

The PROBLEM is that any given premises may suffer losses of power for short
periods from time to time - over a year these all add up of course. And
they all add in the same direction !!!!

Most mains derived clocks react to a power outage by going into a mode where
the display blinks and the time resets to midnight or some such. OTHERS
( with battery back up) however revert to an internal oscillator that is
only based on a cheap R and C and give no warning that there has been an
outage.

The most common outages in homes are due to ELCBs and breakers tripping.

.... Phil

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:29 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 10:58:06 +1000, John Tserkezis
<jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote:

>William Sommerwerck wrote:
>
>> "John Tserkezis" <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:4db34c2b$0$13392$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>>> You mean you had a VCR that *DIDN'T* flash 12:00 all day?
>>
>> Most Public TV stations broadcast time code. The "later" VHS VCRs searched
>> for a PBS station and used the time code to set the clock.
>
> Sorry, my email addy doesn't show it, but I'm in Australia. I've
>verified that timing codes are NOT sent by ANY networks here.

Are you talking about analog TV or digital TV? With analog, it was at
the discretion of the station. With digital, it's inscribed into the
ATSC (US) and DVB-T (everyone else) standards. Unfortunately, I don't
know enough about either of these to explain how to get to these time
codes.

> More so, of the few that knew what I was talking about, said they had
>heard of it, but no, they did not, and never will support it.

In the US, the local PBS station (KTEH) went the other way. They
claim to be sending time code signals, but none of my 3 assorted VCR
boxes would find it.

> That was about a decade ago while digital terrestrial TV was still a
>bit experimental here, but even then, I don't know of any digital PVRs
>today that maintain time that way.

Nope. I have a Philips HDRW720. It can use a PBS station for real
time setting. See the owners manual at:
<http://download.p4c.philips.com/files/h/hdrw720_17b/hdrw720_17b_dfu_aen.pdf>
on page 22 under "automatic time setting". The problem is that there
has been no firmware update to deal with the 2007 change in daylight
savings time.

My Tivo 2 can also use a PBS station for date and time, when connected
to an antenna.

Most digital DVR's are now integrated with either a cable TV modem or
a satellite receiver. Time sync comes from the network. My DirecTV
R16-300 DVR is about 3 seconds early, for no obvious reason, which
makes time shifted recordings start 3 seconds early, and chop off 3
seconds from the end. Grrr....

> There's the odd one out that does NTP if they're 'net connected, but
>everything else relies on standard crystal clocked circuits.

Samsung combined Blue-Ray players and DVR work that way. Buried in
the setup is the option to specify an NTP server. I like to use:
us.pool.ntp.org

> Probably a bad example though. At that that level of complexity,
>no-one in their right mind would go to the trouble of mains-locking a
>clock, when implementing a single-chip Real Time Clock is so much
>easier. Especially so when RTC functionality is built into other multi
>purpose chips.

Yep. However, if the functionality is there as in a network connected
device, and the computer horsepower is available, then network time is
just a matter of adding some code.

> I suppose this comes down to the question of is mains locking "good
>enough"?

It's marginal. Loss of power means loss of clock, with no automatic
method of restoring the real time. No thanks.

> Since I can't get a clear answer from anyone, I'm staying with crystals
>or NTP where applicable.

Perhaps a wind up clock would suffice?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Lead free solder
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/7ff46ef49e9b7de3?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 8:40 pm
From: who where

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 09:08:36 +0100, "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk>
wrote:

>Adrian Tuddenham <adrian@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid> wrote in message
>news:1k065wl.1q7rnpr1tk23cuN%adrian@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid...
>> who where <noone@home.net> wrote:
>>
>> > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:07:11 -0400, "Charles"
>> > <charlesschuler@comcast.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > >Has this had any impact on repair and rework of electronic devices and
>> > >equipment?
>> >
>> > Of course. The increased number of failures due solely to solder
>> > joints has kept many a service department busy. Reworking with
>> > "decent" solder is the simplest treatment.
>>
>> Not in Europe it isn't. There are heavy fines for doing that.
>>
>> --
>> ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
>> (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
>> www.poppyrecords.co.uk
>
>
>For the UK, section 14 of the RoHS Regulation
>
>A producer putting non-compliant EEE on the market on or after 1st July 2006
>shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding the statutory
>maximum, which the Home Office says is currently £5,000. Or "on conviction
>on indictment to fine" - there is no statutory maximum.
>
>Producers failing to provide documents showing compliance within 28 days of
>an official request shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not
>exceeding level 5 on the standard scale. Level 5, coincidentally, is also
>£5,000 at the moment.
>
>Failing to retain technical documentation for four years after EEE has been
>put on the market is also a not-exceeding-level-5 fine.
>
>EEE= electrical and electronic equipment

which relates to "producers", not repairers.

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 8:59 pm
From: Father Haskell

On Apr 23, 3:51 am, adr...@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Adrian
Tuddenham) wrote:
> who where <no...@home.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 17:07:11 -0400, "Charles"
> > <charlesschu...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> > >Has this had any impact on repair and rework of electronic devices and
> > >equipment?
>
> > Of course.  The increased number of failures due solely to solder
> > joints has kept many a service department busy.  Reworking with
> > "decent" solder is the simplest treatment.
>
> Not in Europe it isn't.  There are heavy fines for doing that.
>
> --
> ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~
> (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)www.poppyrecords.co.uk

Importing less cheap Chinese electronic garbage would have more
of an impact.

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:00 pm
From: Mike Tomlinson

In article <ioufiu$erh$1@dont-email.me>, William Sommerwerck
<grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> writes

>I hate callbacks. I would use lead-based solder on repairs.

Me too, made sure I'm well stocked up on lead-based solder.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

==============================================================================
TOPIC: LM386 chip amp picks up radio interference.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/809031519d942490?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 8:56 pm
From: Father Haskell

Homemade, powered by small 13 vct transformer from an old
boom box and LM317T regulator (ps seems capable of 14v clean
power, easily). Sounds like it's picking up the nearest AM station,
especially loud and clear when I touch the volume and gain control
shafts. Touching the heat sink behind the 317 with a fingertip
_quiets_ the interference, though.

Causes? Fixes? Thanks.

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:11 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Father Haskell"
>
> Homemade, powered by small 13 vct transformer from an old
> boom box and LM317T regulator (ps seems capable of 14v clean
> power, easily). Sounds like it's picking up the nearest AM station,
> especially loud and clear when I touch the volume and gain control
> shafts. Touching the heat sink behind the 317 with a fingertip
> _quiets_ the interference, though.

** Lemme guess - you have the IC in a plastic box with no shielding of any
kind ?

Ideally, there needs to be a metal box that is connected to the negative
supply, pin 4 of the IC plus the metal parts of any pots. Alternatively,
connect the metal fames of each pot to the negative rail ( pin 4) and add a
cap of about 2200pF across pins 2 and 4 to bypass radio frequency energy.

The volume pot wiper needs to be de-coupled from pin 2 by a series
combination of a 4.7 kohm resistor and a cap of about 0.1 uF. This stops DC
voltage from pin 2 appearing on the pot and helps with RF suppression.

http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM386.pdf

.... Phil

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:37 pm
From: Jeff Liebermann

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:56:03 -0700 (PDT), Father Haskell
<fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote:

>Homemade, powered by small 13 vct transformer from an old
>boom box and LM317T regulator (ps seems capable of 14v clean
>power, easily). Sounds like it's picking up the nearest AM station,
>especially loud and clear when I touch the volume and gain control
>shafts. Touching the heat sink behind the 317 with a fingertip
>_quiets_ the interference, though.
>
>Causes? Fixes? Thanks.

The cause is simple rectification of the AM signal at the input to the
amplifier. One method of reducing RF pickup is to insert bypass caps
at the input(s) that form a low pass filter. A bypass cap from Pin 7
to ground will also help. Very long leads is a bad idea. A 0.1uf
bypass between power (pin 6) and ground (pin 4) should help. I can't
offer a more specific solution without seeing a schematic and photo of
the construction method.

You might want to repost your question (with a link to the schematic
and photo of your construction) to sci.electronics.design newsgroup
which is better at offering design and construction suggestions.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 9:53 pm
From: Father Haskell

On Apr 24, 12:11 am, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> "Father Haskell"
>
>
>
> > Homemade, powered by small 13 vct transformer from an old
> > boom box and LM317T regulator (ps seems capable of 14v clean
> > power, easily).  Sounds like it's picking up the nearest AM station,
> > especially loud and clear when I touch the volume and gain control
> > shafts.  Touching the heat sink behind the 317 with a fingertip
> > _quiets_ the interference, though.
>
> ** Lemme guess -  you have the IC in a plastic box with no shielding of any
> kind ?

Wooden box, open, power supply board and transformer laid
on workbench and connected with jumpers. Testing that everything
works before final assembly.

> Ideally, there needs to be a metal box that is connected to the negative
> supply, pin 4 of the IC plus the metal parts of any pots. Alternatively,
> connect the metal fames of each pot to the negative rail ( pin 4) and add a
> cap of about 2200pF across pins 2 and 4 to bypass radio frequency energy.

Easily fixed by covering the inside of the box with foil duct tape.

> The volume pot wiper needs to be de-coupled from pin 2 by a series
> combination of a 4.7 kohm resistor and a cap of about 0.1 uF.  This stops DC
> voltage from pin 2 appearing on the pot and helps with RF suppression.
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM386.pdf
>
> ....  Phil

http://fluxmonkey.com/electronoize/386amplifier.htm
modified by adding 25 ohm volume pot to the output end,
with the wiper connected to the speakers ( 2 x 3.3 ohm, series).

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Apr 23 2011 10:00 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Father Haskell"
"Phil Allison"
> "Father Haskell"
>
>
> > Homemade, powered by small 13 vct transformer from an old
> > boom box and LM317T regulator (ps seems capable of 14v clean
> > power, easily). Sounds like it's picking up the nearest AM station,
> > especially loud and clear when I touch the volume and gain control
> > shafts. Touching the heat sink behind the 317 with a fingertip
> > _quiets_ the interference, though.
>
> ** Lemme guess - you have the IC in a plastic box with no shielding of any
> kind ?

Wooden box, open, power supply board and transformer laid
on workbench and connected with jumpers.

** RFI heaven.

Pun intended......

> Ideally, there needs to be a metal box that is connected to the negative
> supply, pin 4 of the IC plus the metal parts of any pots. Alternatively,
> connect the metal fames of each pot to the negative rail ( pin 4) and add
> a
> cap of about 2200pF across pins 2 and 4 to bypass radio frequency energy.

Easily fixed by covering the inside of the box with foil duct tape.

** Maybe so, but making reliable electrical connection to such foil is not
so easy.

Nuts, bolts and solder lugs are essential.

> The volume pot wiper needs to be de-coupled from pin 2 by a series
> combination of a 4.7 kohm resistor and a cap of about 0.1 uF. This stops
> DC
> voltage from pin 2 appearing on the pot and helps with RF suppression.
>
> http://www.national.com/ds/LM/LM386.pdf
>

http://fluxmonkey.com/electronoize/386amplifier.htm
modified by adding 25 ohm volume pot to the output end,
with the wiper connected to the speakers ( 2 x 3.3 ohm, series).

** I'd call that an output attenuator - not a " volume pot ".

..... Phil

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