sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* What kills a valve rectifier? - 11 messages, 5 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3452d3f8314c6ded?hl=en
* Wall Warts - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/de407a5056a54ee0?hl=en
* free shipping wholesale CLOTHING jacket T-shirt long sleeve suit and hoody(
Franklin Marshall,Monclereiderdown,nike,adidas,a&f,d&g,ed harday,bape,bbc,lv,
gucci,armani,polo, poul smith and so on)/http://www.24hours-online.com/ - 1
messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/7c3916928ab3b357?hl=en
* Update: Icom IC-7000 Low UHF Output Power - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/540e476233475a85?hl=en
* Would you like to wear supra shoes ? Do you want to buy air max sale shoes?
In this - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a67e37f76ec7a7f2?hl=en
* Valves badged Orange , rebadged what make? - 3 messages, 2 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b405f7894dddeac4?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: What kills a valve rectifier?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3452d3f8314c6ded?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 12:30 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Arfa Daily"

>
> I've had a number of GZ34s fail short circuit, or suffer from serious
> flashover, and knock out fuses over the years, but I've always put this
> down to saggy filaments or whatever, where the valves are mounted
> horizontally, or upside down.

** GZ34s have an indirectly heated cathode - just like most other valves.

Sooo, the cathode is a solid tube of metal, with a heater wire inside it.

Ergo - it simply cannot sag.

Only directly heated cathode types do that

- like 5Y3s, 5U4s, 5AS4s etc.

.... Phil

== 2 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 1:33 am
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:946dsvFe7oU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Arfa Daily"
>
>>
>> I've had a number of GZ34s fail short circuit, or suffer from serious
>> flashover, and knock out fuses over the years, but I've always put this
>> down to saggy filaments or whatever, where the valves are mounted
>> horizontally, or upside down.
>
>
> ** GZ34s have an indirectly heated cathode - just like most other
> valves.
>
> Sooo, the cathode is a solid tube of metal, with a heater wire inside it.
>
> Ergo - it simply cannot sag.
>
> Only directly heated cathode types do that
>
> - like 5Y3s, 5U4s, 5AS4s etc.
>
>
>
> .... Phil
>
>
>

Agreed, but I did say "or whatever". I've not taken that much notice of the
actual failure mechanism. I think you can spend too much time in a
commercial world, agonising over exactly what went wrong. I have a roof to
keep over my head, and I don't have time to analyze how every fault
occurred, and why and how every component expired in the way it did,
interesting as that may be.

Suffice to say that in 'modern' amps that use a GZ34, I have seen more than
a few with a vapourised fuse and no obvious short causing it. Often, a
replacement fuse holds up, until you clout the valve with the butt end of a
screwdriver, whereupon a miniature fireworks display is launched inside, and
the fuse goes out again. Sometimes, it's spontaneous, and only needs the
voltage to be present. More often than not, it seems to occur when the
valves are not upright. This would imply that gravity acting on the
structure has something to do with it. But what is touching what or why - I
really don't care. Popped fuse - new fuse - clouted valve - fireworks - new
valve - new fuse - soak test - write bill - phone customer. Job done. Cash
in bank.

Arfa

== 3 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 2:49 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Arfa Daily"
> "Phil Allison" "Arfa Daily"
>>
>>>
>>> I've had a number of GZ34s fail short circuit, or suffer from serious
>>> flashover, and knock out fuses over the years, but I've always put this
>>> down to saggy filaments or whatever, where the valves are mounted
>>> horizontally, or upside down.
>>
>>
>> ** GZ34s have an indirectly heated cathode - just like most other
>> valves.
>>
>> Sooo, the cathode is a solid tube of metal, with a heater wire inside it.
>>
>> Ergo - it simply cannot sag.
>>
>> Only directly heated cathode types do that
>>
>> - like 5Y3s, 5U4s, 5AS4s etc.
>>
>
> Agreed, but I did say "or whatever".

** Fine - but you also had no idea what was importantly different about a
GZ34 / 5AR4 compared to other rectifiers.

> I've not taken that much notice of the actual failure mechanism. I think
> you can spend too much time in a commercial world, agonising over exactly
> what went wrong.

** Many times, such analysis pays off in the long term.

Cos failure mechanisms that are not dealt with by the service tech are bound
to be repeated.

> Suffice to say that in 'modern' amps that use a GZ34, I have seen more
> than a few with a vapourised fuse and no obvious short causing it. Often,
> a replacement fuse holds up, until you clout the valve with the butt end
> of a screwdriver, whereupon a miniature fireworks display is launched
> inside, and the fuse goes out again.

** Seen that scenario many times myself - especially with Chink valves.

> Sometimes, it's spontaneous, and only needs the voltage to be present.
> More often than not, it seems to occur when the valves are not upright.
> This would imply that gravity acting on the structure has something to do
> with it.

** Valves are generally not upright when servicing is going on - and a great
many amps have the power valves mounted horizontally or inverted in normal
use.

Owners of same can operate the amp any damn way up they like - and do.

> Popped fuse - new fuse - clouted valve - fireworks - new valve - new
> fuse - soak test - write bill - phone customer. Job done. Cash in bank.

** As posted by me earlier - the best way to fix recurring problems with
crappy GZ34s is called a 1N4007.

Works a treat in Quad Mk2s, long as you get rid of those dreadful oil
filled filter caps.

... Phil

== 4 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 4:35 am
From: "N_Cook"

So no thoughts on generator use , followed by rectifier failure.

It seems the mains fuse I have here was not necessarily the original one.
Someone looked at the amp and replaced the fuse, probably with this probably
previously mechanically broken one (knocked about in a toolbopx). The
original may not have failed but assumed to have fused and so just rectifier
failure.
Could generator brownout or spikes or something weaken a valve rectifier so
it is ok while warm but gives up the ghost on the next powerup from cold?

== 5 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 6:50 am
From: "Ian Field"

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:945i3mFlbuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Ian Field"
>>
>>
>> I'd go for 2x 4007's in series to be on the safe side - not forgetting
>> equal value x-class capacitors in parallel with each diode to damp &
>> equalise any spikes.
>
> ** Quite unnecessary - any voltage spikes are clamped by the first filter
> cap.
>
> Class X caps are more likely to fail than 1N4007 diodes are.
>
>
>> As well as an added sag resistor,
>
> ** Not essential - there will be only 30 volts increase in the B+.

Enough for a nice blue glow around the output valve mica supports - if you
like that sort of thing.

== 6 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 5:24 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:946m1qFcc6U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Arfa Daily"
>> "Phil Allison" "Arfa Daily"
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I've had a number of GZ34s fail short circuit, or suffer from serious
>>>> flashover, and knock out fuses over the years, but I've always put this
>>>> down to saggy filaments or whatever, where the valves are mounted
>>>> horizontally, or upside down.
>>>
>>>
>>> ** GZ34s have an indirectly heated cathode - just like most other
>>> valves.
>>>
>>> Sooo, the cathode is a solid tube of metal, with a heater wire inside
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Ergo - it simply cannot sag.
>>>
>>> Only directly heated cathode types do that
>>>
>>> - like 5Y3s, 5U4s, 5AS4s etc.
>>>
>>
>> Agreed, but I did say "or whatever".
>
>
> ** Fine - but you also had no idea what was importantly different about a
> GZ34 / 5AR4 compared to other rectifiers.
>
>
>> I've not taken that much notice of the actual failure mechanism. I think
>> you can spend too much time in a commercial world, agonising over exactly
>> what went wrong.
>
>
> ** Many times, such analysis pays off in the long term.
>
> Cos failure mechanisms that are not dealt with by the service tech are
> bound to be repeated.

For the most part, that's accepted, and if a component has failed in a way
that it obviously shouldn't have, then of course the reason behind the
failure should be investigated and understood. But in the case of valves
with an obvious internal mechanical failure, it's just that - a dud valve
...

>
>
>> Suffice to say that in 'modern' amps that use a GZ34, I have seen more
>> than a few with a vapourised fuse and no obvious short causing it. Often,
>> a replacement fuse holds up, until you clout the valve with the butt end
>> of a screwdriver, whereupon a miniature fireworks display is launched
>> inside, and the fuse goes out again.
>
>
> ** Seen that scenario many times myself - especially with Chink valves.
>
>> Sometimes, it's spontaneous, and only needs the voltage to be present.
>> More often than not, it seems to occur when the valves are not upright.
>> This would imply that gravity acting on the structure has something to do
>> with it.
>
> ** Valves are generally not upright when servicing is going on - and a
> great many amps have the power valves mounted horizontally or inverted in
> normal use.

Agreed, but that does not make it 'right' in terms of minimising the stress
on the valve's internal structure. I guess that upside down is better than
on their sides, but I still prefer to see power output valves and
rectifiers, being run upright.

>
> Owners of same can operate the amp any damn way up they like - and do.
>
>
>> Popped fuse - new fuse - clouted valve - fireworks - new valve - new
>> fuse - soak test - write bill - phone customer. Job done. Cash in bank.
>
> ** As posted by me earlier - the best way to fix recurring problems with
> crappy GZ34s is called a 1N4007.
>
> Works a treat in Quad Mk2s, long as you get rid of those dreadful oil
> filled filter caps.
>
>
>
> ... Phil
>

== 7 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 5:25 pm
From: "Arfa Daily"

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:irldqp$lto$1@dont-email.me...
> So no thoughts on generator use , followed by rectifier failure.
>
> It seems the mains fuse I have here was not necessarily the original one.
> Someone looked at the amp and replaced the fuse, probably with this
> probably
> previously mechanically broken one (knocked about in a toolbopx). The
> original may not have failed but assumed to have fused and so just
> rectifier
> failure.
> Could generator brownout or spikes or something weaken a valve rectifier
> so
> it is ok while warm but gives up the ghost on the next powerup from cold?
>
>

I would have said not, but who knows ?

Arfa

== 8 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 5:47 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Wed, 25 May 2011 02:16:06 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

> "Meat Plow" <mhywattt@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:pan.2011.05.24.21.25.01@emutt.macspoofer.lmao...
>> On Tue, 24 May 2011 12:04:48 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:
>>
>>> "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
>>> news:irg1t5$bvd$1@dont-email.me...
>>>> Amp used for the first time, in 2 years of regular mains use, with a
>>>> generator. Works fine with no problems. Coincidence ?, next gig back
>>>> to usual mains supply, at power up, blows the mains fuse. The GZ34 is
>>>> failed both sides, 0 percent output . Inspecting the fuse it has
>>>> failed at an end ,
>>>> not the central (T) section and otherwise complete wire shows no sag
>>>> or discolouration. So possibly mechanical failure of fuse. If fast
>>>> make/break intermittant action of the fuse wire at an end , would
>>>> that knock out an RR
>>>> valve? What in general happens in the failure of RRs ? I've only ever
>>>> seen 75 percent , same as new, or 0 percent "goodness" at prescribed
>>>> current settings of the Avo valve tester.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I've had a number of GZ34s fail short circuit, or suffer from serious
>>> flashover, and knock out fuses over the years, but I've always put
>>> this down to saggy filaments or whatever, where the valves are mounted
>>> horizontally, or upside down.
>>>
>>> Arfa
>>
>> What do you think about subbing the 5AR4 with a 5U4?
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Never tried it, but looking at the specs, they look rather different
> from one another, see -
>
> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0997.htm
>
> and
>
> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0504.htm
>
> The 5U4 appears to be able to handle more current, but at a lower max
> plate voltage. Also, the heater requires substantially more current.
> Might be an issue for the transformer supplying it ?
>
> Arfa

If the iron is able to handle it I've known it to be a preferred
replacement for those who want some more sag. Especially harmonica
players.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

== 9 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 5:50 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Wed, 25 May 2011 11:38:28 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

> "Arfa Daily"
>>
>>> What do you think about subbing the 5AR4 with a 5U4?
>>
>>
>> Never tried it, but looking at the specs, they look rather different
>> from one another, see -
>>
>> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0997.htm
>>
>> http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0504.htm
>>
>>
> ** Useless info.
>
> The big difference between the 5AR4 and the 5U4 is in amount of voltage
> drop across each diode when conducting.
>
> The 5AR4 is uses an indirectly heated cathode, close coupled to each
> plate and the voltage drop is very low, about 35 volts at 700mA peak.
>
> The 5U4 uses a directly heated cathode with lotsa space between the
> plates and the cathodes - so there is a much bigger drop in voltage,
> more like 100 volts at peak current.
>
> So, if you drop a 5U4 in place of a 5AR4 - expect to lose 60 to 70 volts
> DC straight off the B+.
>
> Also, the 5AR4 is rated to work reliably with a large filter cap on the
> cathodes ( 60 uF) compared to the 5U4 ( 40uF).
>
> So the proposed sub is bad news all around.

Not for those looking for more sag. I have a couple clients running
variacs to get that kind of sag sound with a GZ tube.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

== 10 of 11 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 5:59 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Tue, 24 May 2011 21:25:50 -0700, spamtrap1888 wrote:

> On May 24, 6:38 pm, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>> "Arfa Daily"
>>
>>
>>
>> >> What do you think about subbing the 5AR4 with a 5U4?
>>
>> > Never tried it, but looking at the specs, they look rather different
>> > from one another, see -
>>
>> >http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0997.htm
>>
>> >http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aaa0504.htm
>>
>> ** Useless info.
>>
>> The big difference between the 5AR4 and the 5U4 is in amount of voltage
>> drop across each diode when conducting.
>>
>> The 5AR4 is uses an indirectly heated cathode, close coupled to each
>> plate and the voltage drop is very low, about 35 volts at 700mA peak.
>>
>> The 5U4 uses a directly heated cathode with lotsa space between the
>> plates and the cathodes -  so there is a much bigger drop in voltage,
>>  more like 100 volts at peak current.
>>
>> So, if you drop a 5U4 in place of a 5AR4 - expect to lose 60 to 70
>> volts DC straight off the B+.
>>
>> Also, the 5AR4 is rated to work reliably with a large filter cap on the
>> cathodes ( 60 uF) compared to the 5U4 ( 40uF).
>>
>> So the proposed sub is bad news all around.
>>
>>
> Considering that the vacuum tube rectifier was the first tube to be
> eliminated (in receiving sets at least), why not replace it with a
> semiconductor diode circuit? What effect would it have on the
> amplifier's sound?

I've installed several SS diode replacements for a valve rectifier.
Most notably the RTSSR from Ruby. Some musicians like sag in their
amps and you certainly won't get it from the RTSSR or a 5AR4.

It TOTALLY depends on the musician and I always cater to their ears.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

== 11 of 11 ==
Date: Fri, May 27 2011 12:37 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Arfa Daily"
>
> The 5U4 appears to be able to handle more current, but at a lower max
> plate voltage. Also, the heater requires substantially more current. Might
> be an issue for the transformer supplying it ?

** Very unlikely to matter.

Say the winding is rated at 5 volts and 2 amps to suit a 5AR4 and the copper
wire is gauged to give about 10 % regulation factor. Then the heat loss in
the 5 volt winding is 10% of the load power or about 1 watt.

If a 5U4 is subbed - the extra 1.1 amps will mean that 5.0 volts drops to
4.7 volts - well within specs for the valve.

The extra heat in the winding amounts to 0.8 watts - which is trivial in a
tranny designed to lose 15 to 30 watts as heat in normal operation.

..... Phil

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Wall Warts
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/de407a5056a54ee0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 3:17 am
From: Mike Tomlinson

En el artículo <6bilt6tedes72j7jmhgvbctu41evoou66g@4ax.com>, Puddin' Man
<puddingDOTman@gmail.com> escribió:

>Are there any guidelines for substituting these things?

You've done the right thing, substituting one of a slightly higher spec.
The fact that you've had one burn out and its replacement gets hot
suggests there may be something wrong with the charging circuit in the
drill or the battery.

--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 10:51 am
From: Puddin' Man

On Wed, 25 May 2011 15:57:21 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

>On Wed, 25 May 2011 14:07:41 -0500, Puddin' Man
><puddingDOTman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The + side measures 3 ohms.
>
>Ok. There may be a diode inside the base. Try reversing the leads on
>the ohms-guesser and see if it acts like a diode.

Measures infinite ohms when reversed.

...
>>After freezing, it cracked open easily, but I see no fuse.
>>Apologies for lack of quality of pix:
>>
>>http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/skilwallwart1.jpg/
>>http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/skilwallwart2.jpg/
>
>Yech. I can't see anything in there. Fix the focus. Is there any
>manner of diode, resitor, charge controller, PCB, pilot lamp (current
>regulator), or thermal fuse inside? If not, it's an ordinary AC
>xformer. Also, no points for covering the xformer with the burned
>insulating material, so I can't see anything.

There's nothing else in there.

>If AC only, then there's the usual problem of what voltage to get.
>Peak voltage on a single diode is 1.414 * AC voltage. If there's no
>series resistor, and just a diode in the base unit, then my guess(tm)
>is that you should be looking for a 7.5VAC wall wart. Again, you'll
>need to measure the charging current and check for 0.1C current to be
>sure you got it right.

I'm 'fraid you'll have to elaborate on this last. And, what is "C" in
.1C?

>Of course, make sure you don't have a shorted
>battery pack.

So I gotta crack the battery pack open. And test each cell individually?
How?

Thx,
P

"Law Without Equity Is No Law At All. It Is A Form Of Jungle Rule."

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 8:49 pm
From: spamtrap1888

On May 26, 10:51 am, Puddin' Man <puddingDOT...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >Of course, make sure you don't have a shorted
> >battery pack.
>
> So I gotta crack the battery pack open. And test each cell individually?
> How?
>

A 9.6 V NiCd battery pack should consist of 8 NiCd penlight cells,
connected in series.

==============================================================================
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http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/7c3916928ab3b357?hl=en
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Update: Icom IC-7000 Low UHF Output Power
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/540e476233475a85?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Thurs, May 26 2011 5:45 pm
From: Meat Plow

On Wed, 25 May 2011 07:35:42 -0400, jaugustine wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Months ago, I posted here regarding an Icom IC-7000 transceiver
> with
> low output power on UHF (440MHZ).
>
> I replaced Q401 (PA), RD60HUF1, a MOSFET device, and that fixed the
> problem. Now I have full output power when I transmit on the 440MHZ
> band.
>
> Note: I ordered it from "RF Parts".
>
> John N3AOF

Remember the post. I own a 706 MKIIG which is similar all mode all band
mobile. RF Parts has been my staple supplier for 20+ years.

The 7000 is a nice radio, improvements over the 706, all band DSP IF
among many others. Better display too.

--
Live Fast Die Young, Leave A Pretty Corpse

==============================================================================
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Valves badged Orange , rebadged what make?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b405f7894dddeac4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, May 27 2011 12:29 am
From: "N_Cook"

Anyone know?
No underlying idents , only 3 years old at most

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, May 27 2011 12:41 am
From: "N_Cook"

From pcb Enumber, the boards are made in Hong Kong, despite Union flag logo
on the overlay and "Made in England" on the chassis. I will assume No-Name
Chinese valves unless anyone knows any better

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, May 27 2011 12:53 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Nutcase Kook"
>
> From pcb Enumber, the boards are made in Hong Kong, despite Union flag
> logo
> on the overlay and "Made in England" on the chassis. I will assume No-Name
> Chinese valves unless anyone knows any better

** Orange Amps do not use or recommend any particular brand of valve.

But you would be a fool to use anything less that the best EL84s and EL34s
you can get - cos those amps are sooooooo tough on output valves.

Svetlana and JJ are the ones to look at with EH down the list somewhat.

..... Phil

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