sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* Guitar Pickups Coil Ringing Test Electric Testing PUP - 3 messages, 2
authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3f84b39bfef04db0?hl=en
* Decoding IC combined batch+date code - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8c09874bd7a100da?hl=en
* panasonic DC280-340V Dc Motor - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b4bd99989e15505b?hl=en
* OT: Video - Funniest Motorcycle Crash Ever! - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a1fc5faa0a0979d7?hl=en
* OT -- switching heating elements - 5 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/2359de19aee3537a?hl=en
* blue hue - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/bbb35e6790e9d8eb?hl=en
* Benefits of LED Lightening - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b79f101db1d33f9b?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Guitar Pickups Coil Ringing Test Electric Testing PUP
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/3f84b39bfef04db0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Fri, Jun 24 2011 10:28 pm
From: "Phil Allison"

"Wild_Bill"
>
> I'm guessing that you're unfamiliar with the Sencore Z-Meters Ringer
> Tests.
> They're capable of indicating shorted single turns.
> Fault-free inductors normally ring 10 rings or higher.

** Demonstrating that the Q is 10 or more.

As any DELIBERATE inductor will.

> Placing a single turn of wire (with ends touching forming a conductive
> turn) around an inductor will generally yield a Fail/1-thru-9 test result.

** Errr - cos that reduces the Q.

> These testers work reliably for any type of inductor/transformer commonly
> used in electronic equipment circuits (no core material or ferrite-type
> cores, not steel core types as mentioned previously).

** Yep - ferrite cored and air cored deliberate inductors have high Q
factors.

> Guitar pickup assemblies aren't typical circuit inductors, however I kinda
> expected them to Ring Test normally with the steel screws and cores
> removed.

** Show how easy it is to be wrong when making silly guesses.

.... Phil

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 1:58 am
From: "Wild_Bill"

Your fabricated Deliberate Inductor term sounds very similar to the term
Chemical Fuse.

You might be surprised/shocked to discover that many folks understand
inductors.

Use all the space you need to show how many small components exhibit over 5H
of inductance, which aren't inductors.

Would those components be Accidental or Coincidental inductors?

The Sencore Ringing Test isn't a specific measurement, it's an indication.

The inductance of an electric guitar pickup is the pickup's most significant
characteristic.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:96la0sFhomU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "Wild_Bill"
>>
>> I'm guessing that you're unfamiliar with the Sencore Z-Meters Ringer
>> Tests.
>> They're capable of indicating shorted single turns.
>> Fault-free inductors normally ring 10 rings or higher.
>
> ** Demonstrating that the Q is 10 or more.
>
> As any DELIBERATE inductor will.
>
>
>> Placing a single turn of wire (with ends touching forming a conductive
>> turn) around an inductor will generally yield a Fail/1-thru-9 test
>> result.
>
> ** Errr - cos that reduces the Q.
>
>
>> These testers work reliably for any type of inductor/transformer commonly
>> used in electronic equipment circuits (no core material or ferrite-type
>> cores, not steel core types as mentioned previously).
>
> ** Yep - ferrite cored and air cored deliberate inductors have high Q
> factors.
>
>
>> Guitar pickup assemblies aren't typical circuit inductors, however I
>> kinda expected them to Ring Test normally with the steel screws and cores
>> removed.
>
> ** Show how easy it is to be wrong when making silly guesses.
>
>
> .... Phil
>
>
>
>

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 3:39 am
From: "Phil Allison"

"Wild_Bill"

** STOP top posting - you fucking nut case.
------------------------------------------------------

> Your fabricated Deliberate Inductor term sounds very similar to the term
> Chemical Fuse.

** OK - now I know for an absolute fact I am up against a total fuckwit.

> You might be surprised/shocked to discover that many folks understand
> inductors.

** No you - that's for sure.

> Use all the space you need to show how many small components exhibit over
> 5H of inductance, which aren't inductors.

** Pretty much all mains transformers, valve output transformers, mic
transformers & audio line transformers .

Yawnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

> Would those components be Accidental or Coincidental inductors?

** Were you an accident or a coincidence ?

Ask your mum and your dad.

If you know who the latter was.

>
> The Sencore Ringing Test isn't a specific measurement, it's an indication.

** You don't say ??

I would never, ever have guessed .............

> The inductance of an electric guitar pickup is the pickup's most
> significant characteristic.

** Like hell.

My god you are an ass.

FOAD.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Decoding IC combined batch+date code
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8c09874bd7a100da?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 1:14 am
From: "N_Cook"

Manufacturer's datasheet has no info on it but does carry a graphic showing
a representative label with this example as
N5BXXA
the ones I have in front of me have marking under the logo and device number
of batch+date code
N5H6PB
can anything be inferred from the use of XX in the graphic and hence meaning
of 6P ?

==============================================================================
TOPIC: panasonic DC280-340V Dc Motor
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b4bd99989e15505b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 1:29 am
From: "Wild_Bill"

If you had the model number of the A/C air conditioning unit, it would
likely be useful for trying to find the motor info.

The 30W is likely relevent (30 watt motor size), and the other numbers are
not exactly clear.. however, if the 280-340V is a voltage rating, then I
would suspect that the A/C unit is for use in a country where 240VAC isn't a
common voltage.

AC (alternating current) motors are cheaper to produce, and I would doubt
that a newer technology brushless DC motor would be practical for a A/C unit
fan motor.

MOTOR for Home appliance & Automotive
http://industrial.panasonic.com/ww/products_e/motor_compressor_e/motor_compressor_e.html

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"kwamena banson" <virginbanson@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:bb0803b8-fa13-4560-a8ce-a7cf298c988d@j15g2000yqf.googlegroups.com...
>I have a panasonic ARW4 1H8P30AC
> SP 30W DC280-340V
> A981 149 (The above is the label on the
> motor)
> DC motor which I had from an Air conditioner. I want to use it for a
> project but i can't figure out how to start it.
> it has 5 leads in the ff colors Red, Back, White, Yellow and Blue.
> Any information on how to start this Motor will be of great help to
> me. Thanks

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Video - Funniest Motorcycle Crash Ever!
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/a1fc5faa0a0979d7?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 1:57 am
From: "asdf@aol.com"

Maybe the funniest motorcycle crash ever. Watch as the crazy bikes
spin around the track as their clumsy riders run around trying to
separate the out of control bikes.

Round and round they go where they stop nobody knows.

http://www.craigboyce.com/w/2011/06/funniest-motorcycle-crash-video/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT -- switching heating elements
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/2359de19aee3537a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 2:26 am
From: "Wild_Bill"

Circuit breakers don't need to be explained.

In probably less than 1/1000 of installations in any relatively modern home,
there is a power plug (on a short cord) and receptacle for a kitchen range..
it's a service disconnect.

Disconnects are defined and required by codes in many places, certainly by
the NEC, and just plain (un?)-common sense.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:itjhi0$sjn$1@dont-email.me...
>I just had to replace the bottom element in my GE oven, and discovered --
>to
> my great surprise -- that one side of the element is always "hot" -- that
> is, it has voltage on it. I will be calling Appliance Park next week and
> verbally tearing someone a new oven cavity.
>
> Is this normal? And if it is, is it for some reason other than saving
> money?
>
> --
> "We already know the answers -- we just haven't asked the right
> questions." -- Edwin Land
>
>

== 2 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 5:15 am
From: klem kedidelhopper

On Jun 23, 6:53 pm, PlainB...@yawhoo.com wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2011 12:27:06 +1000, Sylvia Else
>
>
>
> <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
> >On 21/06/2011 12:11 PM, Jeffrey Angus wrote:
> >> On 6/20/2011 7:16 PM, William Sommerwerck wrote:
> >>>> Remember, it ONLY takes ONE switch to OPEN a series circuit.
> >>>> That is ALL that is required to control whether or not the
> >>>> element gets hot or cools off.
>
> >>> You were not paying attention! Any heating device that uses both "phases"
> >>> requres TWO switches to open it.
>
> >>>> Oh, and by the way, since you brought it up, the bit about
> >>>> both of the 240 volt sources being "hot with respect to
> >>>> neutral". The heating elements are connected ACROSS the 240
> >>>> VAC source, NOT split with each half going from the two
> >>>> sources to neutral. (That would require a double contact to
> >>>> turn each PAIR of heating elements on and off.)
>
> >>> I'm not sure what you're talking about. First, there is no "240V"
> >>> source in
> >>> my condo. There are multiple 120V sources from which you can get higher
> >>> voltages by spanning them. (I assume each voltage is referenced to some
> >>> "neutral" point.) In my preceding apartment, I took advantage of this to
> >>> build a break-out box -- all to code, I have several electrician
> >>> friends who
> >>> advised me -- to provide individual lines for my class A power amps.
>
> >>> As someone else kindly pointed out, this oven has one side of its
> >>> elements
> >>> hard-wired to AC. Bad, bad, bad, bad idea.
>
> >> Damn you are fucking dense William.
>
> >> The heating element from one hot lead to the other hot lead.
> >> At NO time is there a connection to Neutral. Hence it ONLY
> >> requires a SINGLE pole switch to open a SERIES circuit.
>
> >I see no inconsistency. A correctly functioning heating element can be
> >turned off, in the sense of no longer heating, by means of a single pole
> >switch.
>
> >But what about a non-correctly functioning heating element? One, for
> >example, that's shorted to its grounded covering somewhere along its
> >length. This could result in part of the element overheating, and an
> >owner noticing this would likely respond by turning the appliance off at
> >its switch. In the case of a heating element that spans two 110 v lines
> >in opposite phase, turning it off by a single pole switch won't have the
> >desired effect. Better hope that an earth leakage detector is fitted in
> >the supply lines, and works.
>
> >Sylvia.
>
> I had exactly this happen over a decade ago.  The center resistance
> element started arcing to the outer sheath.  This action was clearly
> visible.  When turning off the oven didn't help, I did what any
> intelligent person should do - I turned off the circuit breaker.
>
> I repeat - only a fool works on electrical equipment without making
> sure it has been disconnected from power.  'Assuming' that both sides
> of the power line are switched is stupid. Beleiving that the circuit
> breaker is correctly labeled is foolish. Trusting the circuit breaker
> is working correctly is only slightly less so.
>
> About 5 years ago a lady named Gina Marie Wylie published an online
> serial called 'Spitfire and Messerschmidt'.  In the story, an Air
> Conditioning serviceman is called upon to determine why the central
> air conditioner has stopped.  In exquisite detail it is described how
> he checked the thermostat, then turned off the circuit breaker, pulled
> the access panel, then used a voltmeter to verify the power was off.
> When Davey (AKA Messerschmidt) questions this, the serviceman explains
> "I have a six year old son.  I look forward to going home and playing
> with him tonight.  I don't want someone to have to explain to him that
> Daddy was in a hurry, made a mistake, and won't ever be coming home."
>
>   I'm sure the OP's significant other would not be comforted by the
> epitath 'I thought it was turned off.'
>
> PlainBill

That was one of the best things said so far. I heard about a utility
worker who walked into 1100VAC at a sub station some years ago. He too
thought that "the power was off". He spent the rest of his short life
on life support. We shouldn't need to be given a reason to be safe but
just in case someone does, just read 'Spitfire and Messerschmidt'.

You know William it seems that we like to buy the same appliances. I
also had a Black and Decker toaster oven some years ago and I too
remember that both sides of the line were switched off when you opened
the door. (I burnished and bent those contacts many times until they
just eventually "evaporated" and we had to throw the damn toaster
out). But after thinking about it, what puzzles me now is why did they
bother to switch both a 120V hot as well as a neutral? I still think
that it's prudent to disconnect power before working on something,
(whenever you can that is), but it seems to make no sense to
disconnect a neutral on a 120V circuit considering they can't be
bothered to disconnect both sides of the line on a 240V appliance.
Lenny
Lenny

== 3 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 8:08 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

"klem kedidelhopper" <captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ac7ac73-dfe4-4765-bf93-cbf24974ce59@em7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

> You know William it seems that we like to buy the same appliances.
> I also had a Black and Decker toaster oven some years ago and I too
> remember that both sides of the line were switched off when you opened
> the door. (I burnished and bent those contacts many times until they
> just eventually "evaporated" and we had to throw the damn toaster
> out). But after thinking about it, what puzzles me now is why did they
> bother to switch both a 120V hot as well as a neutral? I still think
> that it's prudent to disconnect power before working on something,
> (whenever you can that is), but it seems to make no sense to
> disconnect a neutral on a 120V circuit considering they can't be
> bothered to disconnect both sides of the line on a 240V appliance.

I can think of a number of reasons, the principal one being that it's easy
to stick a fork in a toaster, much harder to stick one in an oven. Of
course, this particular toaster used sealed elements, so it's unlikely
anything within the cavity would ever be electrically hot.

The other reason for switching the neutral is that there's no guarantee the
neutral is neutral -- some houses are miswired.

I had a great conversation the other day with a woman at GE's CEO
headquarters, who apparently does nothing but talk to Really Unhappy
customers. I admitted my carelessness, but she didn't put me down, and
listened seriously. She said she would report this to The Council. ("The
Kryptonian Council of Elders?" That got a big laugh out of her.) Apparently,
GE has a group that pays attention to engineering issues.

You might have heard that GE is bringing major-appliance manufacturing back
to Appliance Park. This is apparently due to rising wages in other
countries, and GE's figuring out how to build appliances more efficiently. A
guy at GE told me that the goal is return the manufacture of /all/ major
appliances.

== 4 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 12:31 pm
From: klem kedidelhopper

On Jun 25, 11:08 am, "William Sommerwerck"
<grizzledgee...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "klem kedidelhopper" <captainvideo462...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:0ac7ac73-dfe4-4765-bf93-cbf24974ce59@em7g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...
>
> > You know William it seems that we  like to buy the same appliances.
> > I also had a Black and Decker toaster oven some years ago and I too
> > remember that both sides of the line were switched off when you opened
> > the door. (I burnished and bent those contacts many times until they
> > just eventually "evaporated" and we had to throw the damn toaster
> > out). But after thinking about it, what puzzles me now is why did they
> > bother to switch both a 120V hot as well as a neutral? I still think
> > that it's prudent to disconnect power before working on something,
> > (whenever you can that is), but it seems to make no sense to
> > disconnect a neutral on a 120V circuit considering they can't be
> > bothered to disconnect both sides of the line on a 240V appliance.
>
> I can think of a number of reasons, the principal one being that it's easy
> to stick a fork in a toaster, much harder to stick one in an oven. Of
> course, this particular toaster used sealed elements, so it's unlikely
> anything within the cavity would ever be electrically hot.
>
> The other reason for switching the neutral is that there's no guarantee the
> neutral is neutral -- some houses are miswired.
>
> I had a great conversation the other day with a woman at GE's CEO
> headquarters, who apparently does nothing but talk to Really Unhappy
> customers. I admitted my carelessness, but she didn't put me down, and
> listened seriously. She said she would report this to The Council. ("The
> Kryptonian Council of Elders?" That got a big laugh out of her.) Apparently,
> GE has a group that pays attention to engineering issues.
>
> You might have heard that GE is bringing major-appliance manufacturing back
> to Appliance Park. This is apparently due to rising wages in other
> countries, and GE's figuring out how to build appliances more efficiently. A
> guy at GE told me that the goal is return the manufacture of /all/ major
> appliances.

So then why not assume that there are enough idiots out there like
people who use ground busters because they have older ungrounded
outlets in their homes or better yet those that file the larger prong
on a plug down so that it will fit in an older outlet. If you really
consider these possibilities then why not switch both the hot and
neutral on every 120V appliance. Lets make them all "idiot proof" and
then everyone will be safe. I mean should we assume that anyone is
going to have to take responsibility for their own actions any more?
When I was a kid, (back in the stone age). there was no such thing as
a Calrod element, well maybe there might have been but I remember that
most appliances like toasters, ovens, broilers, even space heaters
were made with exposed nichrome wire. Many toasters still are. I
worked on them all from the time I was a teenager. Most people, even
the non technical ones realized after they had stuck a fork in the
toaster once to not do that again. I'm sure that they still do. But
really lets answer the bigger question. What is the goal here? Is it
to build an appliance as cheaply, I'm sorry, (cost effectively), as
possible or is it to keep people, even the stupid ones safe? And
getting back to my other question: why did B& D obviously think that
it was a good idea 15 years ago to switch both the hot and neutral on
my toaster oven but now they don't?
You just can't convince me that the least common denominator isn't
money. Yeah maybe I am a little paranoid too, but it doesn't mean
they're not out to get me.....Lenny

== 5 of 5 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 1:57 pm
From: "William Sommerwerck"

"klem kedidelhopper" <captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f35d2ee8-6bf8-4c24-acba-045f7c47b518@ct4g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

> When I was a kid, (back in the stone age). there was no such thing as
> a Calrod element, well maybe there might have been but I remember that
> most appliances like toasters, ovens, broilers, even space heaters
> were made with exposed nichrome wire.

The GE Calrod unit goes back at least to the 50s, and probably the 30s. An
electric oven using exposed nichrome wires would not be a very good idea.

> Many toasters still are. I
> worked on them all from the time I was a teenager. Most people, even
> the non technical ones realized after they had stuck a fork in the
> toaster once to not do that again. I'm sure that they still do. But
> really lets answer the bigger question. What is the goal here? Is it
> to build an appliance as cheaply, I'm sorry, (cost effectively), as
> possible or is it to keep people, even the stupid ones safe? And
> getting back to my other question: why did B& D obviously think that
> it was a good idea 15 years ago to switch both the hot and neutral on
> my toaster oven but now they don't?

If there is an answer, it's that you do certain things simply because they
make sense, regardless of what you think a user might or might not do.

> You just can't convince me that the least common denominator isn't
> money. Yeah maybe I am a little paranoid too, but it doesn't mean
> they're not out to get me.....Lenny

==============================================================================
TOPIC: blue hue
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/bbb35e6790e9d8eb?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 2:32 am
From: Jeff Urban

Do you all work on these things or what ?

This is a Phillips and if it is a CRT based RPTV it has contaminated
coolant. Look at the bright areas of the picture, are they yellow ? I
bet a case of beer they are.

I've seen worse, one said to pierce the anode caps to discharge the HV
here in SER, geez, that would make for $200 additional work. Talk
about not knowing WTF one is doing. But this is not as bad.

Anyway, look in the lens, THE LENS. It will be all hazy. Take it
apart, clean it up and change the fluid. I have done hundreds of them.
And more in other brands. But NAPs get it in the blue and green
mainly. If you can't get the fluid anywhere else, get it from MCM. We
were getting it for about a third of what they charge by we bought a
hell of alot of it.

It's caused because they leave an air gap, to help prevent leakage,
which happens from the gradual expansion of the fluid over time. It
doesn't work because they still leak at times. Plus I think their
coolant is not the best.

If you attempt to service an RPTV that is CRT based and don't get the
idea to look straight into the lens(es) when you see this, do
something else.

J

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Benefits of LED Lightening
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b79f101db1d33f9b?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Jun 25 2011 3:04 am
From: Andy

On Jun 13, 6:09 am, Barb McHaugh <jannet...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [url=http://www.solunagreen.com/]LED lights [/url] are a wonderful
> invention that has changed the way the world is lit. Not only are they
> long lasting, they have many environmental benefits. LED lights are
> four times more efficient than a regular incandescent light bulb and
> last 10 times as long. LED lights also use between 50 and 80 percent
> less energy than an incandescent bulb.By switching to low energy LED
> home lighting in your home, even one bulb will keep one half of a ton
> of carbon dioxide out of the atmosphere through the lifetime of the
> bulb instead of using incandescent bulbs. Switching also keeps sulfur
> oxide and nuclear waste out of the atmosphere as well, leading to a
> cleaner world and one that will last much longer.

Andy comments:
I have some LED night lights that draw 0.4 watts that I leave on
all the time. Each light costs about 35 cents a year to operate
24 hours a day. Previously I used the 7 watt night lights which
burn out regularly, and would cost $6.10 a year under the same
conditions..... I LIKE the LEDs a lot....
I bought them at the Dollar Tree store for a dollar apiece....

Andy in Eureka, Texas

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