sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com

Today's topics:

* t.v. volume remains static. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8fbadf0c35306061?hl=en
* Air Max technology - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/165915097db6547d?hl=en
* Contactor coil: 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz - 9 messages, 7 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0d1a06068779ce43?hl=en
* Heathkit QM1 Q meter - 3 messages, 3 authors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/c2c9e623a031bda1?hl=en
* Higher wattage for a resistor ever bad? - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/4fb2d50c6f31d89e?hl=en
* OT: Tek 465 - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b9f473fde6856891?hl=en
* Michael A. Terrell must be killed ASAP. - 1 messages, 1 author
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/13b233689d902984?hl=en

==============================================================================
TOPIC: t.v. volume remains static.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/8fbadf0c35306061?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 12:01 am
From: jango2

On Sep 1, 6:18 pm, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> "jango2" <crow_slap...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> news:c743326d-ec02-4e0b-9ffa-0e743c4cf1b5@a10g2000prn.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 29, 9:55 am, delroy_dob...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>  Panasonic t.v., TC 20RA10LP.I replaced the audio ic ,an7523n,and the
> >> t.v
> >>  now has sound but the sound/volume remains at one pitch.  whenever I
> >> press
> >>  the volume button whether up/down the volume remains same but
> >> whenever it
> >>  reaches 0 on the volume display on the screen you won't hear the
> >> volume.
> >>  what is wrong here ?
> >>   N:B  There is no bridges across the ic pins.
>
> > Look for a voltage variation on pin 9(DC VOL) as you turn volume up
> > and down. The new IC seems to be working else it wouldn't mute at
> > volume zero.
> > Google groupers have brains too.
> > Jango
>
> Some Panasonics in the past were very critical of factory-original IC's. I
> once had a Pan portable as a test set in the workshop. It had a failed field
> chip when it first became mine. I recall replacing it with one of the same
> basic number out of the stock drawer, but the set never did work right, with
> all sorts of beam limiter problems as the brightness of scenes varied.
> Eventually, on the advice of a colleague who'd come across this before, I
> ordered in a genuine replacement from Pan. After fitting this, it worked
> just fine.
>
> Arfa

Chinese fakes and near equivalents printed on to meet unavailable
requirements, it's already tough for us with component sizes being
shrunk down to mils, dealing with this crap from the unscrupulous
Chinese puts a dent in your wallet.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Air Max technology
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/165915097db6547d?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 1:33 am
From: "www.brandtrade10.com"

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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Contactor coil: 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0d1a06068779ce43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 6:23 am
From: "cbarn24050@aol.com"

On Sep 3, 12:55 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:

> ---
> Another of the illiterati bums rears up and flaunts his midget
> intellect while standing on soggy ground.
>
> --
> JF- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Thats an outstanding insult John, must have taken you a while to come
up with, or is it a quote you stole?

== 2 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 7:45 am
From: "Ian Field"

"whit3rd" <whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b625b3af-377a-429c-b0a0-431115db7491@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com...
On Monday, August 29, 2011 7:25:23 AM UTC-7, NT wrote:
> On Aug 29, 7:21 am, DaveC <inv...@invalid.net> wrote:
> > I may be able to obtain a very small 2-pole 240 vac contactor I need
> > rated
> > for 50 Hz only.
> >
> > If I install it in N. America, what's the implication? Is the hold-in
> > magnetism less than if it were 60 Hz?

> If instead you meant you would use it on 110v 60Hz, then dont. But you
> could use diodes to get a higher dc voltage and use that.

NO NO NO!
DC excitation of an AC-rated coil is never a good idea.
DC coils and DC-activated relays are designed very differently
from their AC cousins.

vvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv

As long as you alter the voltage to take into account no inductive effect,
its probably not as bad as running a DC contactor with AC.

== 3 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 10:13 am
From: NT

On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>
> >> >> and if the relay is
> >> >> designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its coil, how
> >> >> can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>
> >> >With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC you
> >> >proposed using 174v rms,
>
> >> No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
> >> full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to get
> >> smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>
> >fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
> >matters.
>
> ---
> Then show me your circuit.
>
> Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
> relay using diodes and 120V mains.
> ---
>
> >> >that would be ok on your specific relay, but
> >> >not a universal solution.
>
> >> ???
>
> >Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
> >some relays it will fry them.
>
> ---
> Show me.

If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
starting to get silly.

== 4 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 10:50 am
From: John Fields

On Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2222@care2.com>
wrote:

>On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>> Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>>
>> >> >> and if the relay is
>> >> >> designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its coil, how
>> >> >> can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>>
>> >> >With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC you
>> >> >proposed using 174v rms,
>>
>> >> No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
>> >> full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to get
>> >> smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>>
>> >fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
>> >matters.
>>
>> ---
>> Then show me your circuit.
>>
>> Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
>> relay using diodes and 120V mains.
>> ---
>>
>> >> >that would be ok on your specific relay, but
>> >> >not a universal solution.
>>
>> >> ???
>>
>> >Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
>> >some relays it will fry them.
>>
>> ---
>> Show me.
>
>If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
>starting to get silly.

---
Translation: "I can do neither, but let me see what I can do to duck
out of here without losing too much face."

--
JF

== 5 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 11:12 am
From: whit3rd

On Saturday, September 3, 2011 7:45:47 AM UTC-7, Ian Field wrote:
> "whit3rd" <whi...@gmail.com> wrote in message

> NO NO NO!
> DC excitation of an AC-rated coil is never a good idea.

> As long as you alter the voltage to take into account no inductive effect,
> its probably not as bad as running a DC contactor with AC.

There's a subtle difference, though, in an iron pole piece that gets
permanently magnetized by repeated DC excitation, and the same
pole piece that gets AC and is repeatedly demagnetized. I'd worry
about the DC causing, maybe after weeks, a failure of a perfectly
good AC component.

The 'no inductive effect' means that only the wire resistance, not the
resistance plus inductance, limits field current. That means the
field current with DC isn't predictably proportioned to the field
current with AC (though THAT could be quickly tested).

== 6 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 12:17 pm
From: "Don Kelly"

"NT" wrote in message
news:1151b7d1-43be-4a3c-87ba-a533f96b5570@hb5g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

> -----------------------
> I sense a bit of cross confusion in this thread.
>
> a)Do not the AC/DC ratings refer to the contact rating rather than the
> coil
> rating? As with any switch, there is a big derating of contacts designed
> for
> AC use but applied to DC- Example a typical 120V 15 A light switch would
> fail at 15A 120V DC- it might work at 15A, 12V. Older switches with good
> snap contacts do much better.

No, I'm talking about coil voltage ratings.

> You indicate experience for the factor of 2:1- but is this something that
> translates across the AC/DC barrier?

I'm not 100% clear what you mean there. In short, many relays only
have one coil voltage rating, and its for just one of either ac or dc.
The various ones I've seen that have coil 2 ratings, one for ac one
for dc, have consistently had the dc coil rating be half the ac
voltage rating.

> b) John indicates 174VDC giving 0.036A would be OK- for closing. However
> when closed, the holding current will be 0.031A and this is the steady
> state
> current that is involved in heating when the relay is closed. For DC the
> voltage would need to be about 150VDC [ (174*0.031/0.036)^2]. So it
> remains to be seen if that is sufficient to close the relay. According to
> you- it would be more than adequate. From John's 80% criterion it is
> inadequate.- so point (c).
>
> c) The peak force is related to the square of peak flux For AC, this is
> proportional to (Vrms/f)^2 independent of the magnetic medium. The
> magnetic
> medium determines the corresponding peak current. While a DC current of
> 0.036A corresponds to an rms current of the same magnitude, and the
> average
> force is the same, at that current, as the average force in the AC case,
> it
> is well below the peak force (about a factor of 2, ). This may have have
> a
> bearing on the relay's operation- just a conjecture.
>
> Don Kelly
> cross out to reply

Peak force would come into play when dealing with stiction, but a
relay would have to be on its very last legs for stiction to be
significant in practice.

NT

Thank you.

Possibly the DC rating is lower because of the lower impedance (In the
example, with the coil closed the resistance cited is about 60 % of the 60
Hz impedance and the same current is wanted.

Don Kelly
cross out to reply

== 7 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 5:57 pm
From: NT

On Sep 3, 6:50 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> >> Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>
> >> >> >> and if the relay is
> >> >> >> designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its coil, how
> >> >> >> can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>
> >> >> >With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC you
> >> >> >proposed using 174v rms,
>
> >> >> No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
> >> >> full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to get
> >> >> smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>
> >> >fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
> >> >matters.
>
> >> ---
> >> Then show me your circuit.
>
> >> Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
> >> relay using diodes and 120V mains.
> >> ---
>
> >> >> >that would be ok on your specific relay, but
> >> >> >not a universal solution.
>
> >> >> ???
>
> >> >Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
> >> >some relays it will fry them.
>
> >> ---
> >> Show me.
>
> >If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
> >starting to get silly.
>
> ---
> Translation:  "I can do neither, but let me see what I can do to duck
> out of here without losing too much face."

translation: if you want to go teach yoursef, youre free to. I'm not
puting however many hours in for you for free.

== 8 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 8:01 pm
From: "cbarn24050@aol.com"

On Sep 3, 12:41 am, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:42:28 -0700 (PDT), "cbarn24...@aol.com"
>
>
>
>
>
> <cbarn24...@aol.com> wrote:
> >On Sep 2, 3:04 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 05:47:43 -0700 (PDT), "cbarn24...@aol.com"
>
> >> <cbarn24...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> >On Aug 30, 6:59 pm, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, 30 Aug 2011 10:55:10 -0500, Jeffrey Angus <grendel...@aim.com>
> >> >> wrote:
>
> >> >> >Hasn't anybody read the original question?
>
> >> >> Nope.  With 5 groups in the distribution, I just assumed the original
> >> >> question to not be worth reading.  Besides, some of the groups appear
> >> >> to be write-only, where nobody (including me) reads the original
> >> >> question.
>
> >> >That must be the explaination as to why so much crap has been written
> >> >on this thread!!
>
> >> ---
> >> The addition of your three turds to this punchbowl certainly isn't
> >> helping, is it?
>
> >> --
> >> JF
>
> >Well they might if you actually read them, I have actually given the
> >op the correct answer,
>
> ---
> Really?
>
> Here are your previous posts to this thread:
>
> Your first:
>
> "Finally someone comes up with the correct answer."
>
> Your second:
>
> "Oh they don't do practical here! It's rare for them to get it right
> either, this thread is no exception. Some of them even advertise their
> place of work! I wonder how much business that has cost them."
>
> Your third:
>
> "That must be the explaination as to why so much crap has been written
> on this thread!!"
>
> Which of those gives the correct answer to the OP?

Err the first, maybe you didnt read the post it was replying to.

> ---
>
> >I actually read the question.
>
> ---
> More's the pity then, since you obviously didn't understand it.

What do you think i didn't understand?

> ---
>
> >Of course your free to ramble on about relays instead of contactors if you like.
>
> ---
> If you have any capacity for learning, you need to smart up on
> reasoning and punctuation before you start talking about shit you know
> nothing about.

smarten up John

>
> Just to help you along, here's a clue:
>
> All contactors are relays, but not all relays are contactors.

No there not dopey.

>
> --
> JF- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

== 9 of 9 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 11:41 pm
From: The Ghost In The Machine

On Sep 3, 8:57 pm, NT <meow2...@care2.com> wrote:
> On Sep 3, 6:50 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Sat, 3 Sep 2011 10:13:51 -0700 (PDT), NT <meow2...@care2.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > >On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
> > >> Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>
> > >> >> >> and if the relay is
> > >> >> >> designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its coil, how
> > >> >> >> can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>
> > >> >> >With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC you
> > >> >> >proposed using 174v rms,
>
> > >> >> No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
> > >> >> full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to get
> > >> >> smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>
> > >> >fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
> > >> >matters.
>
> > >> ---
> > >> Then show me your circuit.
>
> > >> Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
> > >> relay using diodes and 120V mains.
> > >> ---
>
> > >> >> >that would be ok on your specific relay, but
> > >> >> >not a universal solution.
>
> > >> >> ???
>
> > >> >Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
> > >> >some relays it will fry them.
>
> > >> ---
> > >> Show me.
>
> > >If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
> > >starting to get silly.
>
> > ---
> > Translation:  "I can do neither, but let me see what I can do to duck
> > out of here without losing too much face."
>
> translation: if you want to go teach yoursef, youre free to. I'm not
> puting however many hours in for you for free.

TRANSLATION: I'M JUST SAYING.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Heathkit QM1 Q meter
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/c2c9e623a031bda1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 6:55 am
From: klem kedidelhopper

I picked this meter up the other day. It came from a school lab and
appears to have been taken care of. It also has the original external
factory supplied calibration coil as well. I have been able to find
only limited information on this unit, such as an unreadable schematic
and only about four pages from the manual. I would like to try
experimenting with this thing so I was wondering if anyone might have
a manual for this model that they would be willing to share or perhaps
know of a link where I might find one? Thanks, Lenny

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 8:05 am
From: news@jecarter.us

On Sat, 3 Sep 2011 06:55:23 -0700 (PDT), klem kedidelhopper
<captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote:

>I picked this meter up the other day. It came from a school lab and
>appears to have been taken care of. It also has the original external
>factory supplied calibration coil as well. I have been able to find
>only limited information on this unit, such as an unreadable schematic
>and only about four pages from the manual. I would like to try
>experimenting with this thing so I was wondering if anyone might have
>a manual for this model that they would be willing to share or perhaps
>know of a link where I might find one? Thanks, Lenny

Try

The Boat Anchor Manual Archive
http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 8:25 am
From: "Dave M"

news@jecarter.us wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Sep 2011 06:55:23 -0700 (PDT), klem kedidelhopper
> <captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I picked this meter up the other day. It came from a school lab and
>> appears to have been taken care of. It also has the original external
>> factory supplied calibration coil as well. I have been able to find
>> only limited information on this unit, such as an unreadable
>> schematic and only about four pages from the manual. I would like to
>> try experimenting with this thing so I was wondering if anyone might
>> have a manual for this model that they would be willing to share or
>> perhaps know of a link where I might find one? Thanks, Lenny
>
> Try
>
> The Boat Anchor Manual Archive
> http://bama.edebris.com/manuals/

You won't find any Heathkit manuals on BAMA. However, I have a decent scan
of the complete manual. It's almost 10 Mb. If your email provider will
allow an attachment of that size, I can send it to you.
Reply directly to me so I'll have a good email address for you.

--
David
dgminala at mediacombb dot net

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Higher wattage for a resistor ever bad?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/4fb2d50c6f31d89e?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 7:03 am
From: Teodor Väänänen

On 2011-09-03 03:06, Phil Allison wrote:
> "John Fields"
>
>
>>>
>>> fwiw most TH parts are carbon film
>>
>> ---
>> What do you mean by "TH"?
>
>
> ** Through Hole.
>
> Dear, oh dear .....

And from what I've understood, there isn't a clear standard as to how
metal films are marked as opposed to carbon films, so you would have to
know what resistor manufacturer the equipment manufacturer used in order
to be able to tell what type is in the device.
You can deduce some from the application as well as tolerance, but it's
by no means a sure-fire way.

Just my $.02 worth,

/Teo.

--
Teodor Väänänen | Don't meddle in the affairs of wizards,
teostupiditydor@algonet.se | for you are good and crunchy with
Remove stupidity to reply | ketchup.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: OT: Tek 465
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/b9f473fde6856891?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 7:59 am
From: Robert Macy

On Sep 1, 4:21 am, "Mark Zacharias" <mark_zachar...@labolgcbs.net>
wrote:
...snip...
> Just got that 2246 yesterday. Very cool so far as functions are concerned;
> the front panel controls seem just a bit chintzy compared to the 465, but
> still OK really. Not in current cal, but time base and vertical amplitude
> seem to be quite accurate and I'm not doing government work after all, just
> consumer electronics.
...snip...
> Mark Z.

Mark,

I sent an email directly to you regarding disposition of your old
465.
Did you receive it?

Regards,
Robert

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Michael A. Terrell must be killed ASAP.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/13b233689d902984?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sat, Sep 3 2011 10:10 am
From: The Ghost In The Machine

On Sep 2, 12:41 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> The Ghost In The Machine wrote:
>
>
>
> > YOU LOW LIFE NO CLASS CREEPS...SEE WHAT YOU DO?
> > OFF TOPIC CROSSPOSTING CRAP.....YOU MUST BE EXECUTED.
> > PATECUM
> > TGITM
>
>    FOAD, you little queer mama's boy.  Only queers post in all caps, and
> everyone knows it.
>
> --
> You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

FOAD ?????? NO SHIT, YOU FAGGOTY LTLLE HATEFUL TROLL.....JUST SHUT THE
FUCK UP BEFORE I MENTION THE TIME YOU POSTED YOUR ANUS FOR EVERYONE
TO SEE.......YOU ARE THE ONLY MAMA BOY QUEER ASS IDIOT HERE, ASSHOLE.
VOLTAGE DOESNT KILL...YOU FUCKING IDIOT, THAT'S NOT WHAT HE ASKED,
FOOL!
PATECUM
TGITM

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