sci.electronics.repair - 26 new messages in 11 topics - digest

sci.electronics.repair
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Today's topics:

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Unknown device "3B" on motor drive boards.
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/9e979c6db82f60b1?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Sun, Sep 18 2011 7:45 pm
From: Robbie Hatley

On 2011-09-16 2:48 PM, whit3rd wrote:

> The most common item that one sees in a switching supply
> next to an optoisolator is a TL431 programmable zener
> (actually a voltage reference/error amplifier combination).
> Possibly that's what you have, they're multiple-sourced
> in LOTS of package styles.

Yep, I think that's probably it! Thanks! (Also see my
reply to "Franc Zabkar". I saw his reply first. He
mentioned the Hitachi version of 431, 432.)

--
Cheers,
Robbie Hatley
Stanton, CA, USA
lonewolf (at) well (dot) com
http://www.well.com/user/lonewolf/

==============================================================================
TOPIC: stupid, stupid, stupid -- part II
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/579c7eaa91ffc061?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 1:38 am
From: Nelson

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:30:09 -0400, William Sommerwerck wrote
(in article <j556aj$sfh$1@dont-email.me>):

> The problem wasn't the $16.50 -- or even the loss of the spare parts. It was
> the apparent encroaching senility. Why can't I remember where I put things?
> **

A feeling I know all too well :-(

> I'd looked repeatedly on my desk -- where the Discman & remote should have
> been -- but couldn't find them. Were they under the pizza pan? Nope.

Why are you storing a pizza pan on your desk?

> The best advice I can give anyone who's mislaid something is... If you can't
> find it in a few minutes, stop looking. It almost always shows up
> unexpectedly where you never thought it could be.

Or not :-(. I am currently trying to find a partial denture with a
$1,200 penalty for failure.

--
Nelson

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 3:07 am
From: "William Sommerwerck"

"Nelson" <nelson@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:0001HW.CA9C77B300E0EF4DB02919BF@news.astraweb.com...
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:30:09 -0400, William Sommerwerck wrote
> (in article <j556aj$sfh$1@dont-email.me>):

>> I'd looked repeatedly on my desk -- where the Discman & remote should
have
>> been -- but couldn't find them. Were they under the pizza pan? Nope.

> Why are you storing a pizza pan on your desk?

It just happened to be there, from the last time I had a pizza.

>> The best advice I can give anyone who's mislaid something is...
>> If you can't find it in a few minutes, stop looking. It almost always
>> shows up unexpectedly where you never thought it could be.

> Or not :-(. I am currently trying to find a partial denture with a
> $1,200 penalty for failure.

On the assumptions it wasn't thrown out in the trash, and you didn't swallow
it... I has to be there. It will show up, if you're patient.

In the meantime, pick foods that are easily gummed.

"If you haven't any teeth up above or beneath
You can gum it with your gummy-gum-gum.
You can gum it with your gummy-gum-gum!
Eat food!"
-- Stan Freberg

The same weekend the Discman disappeared, so did the right lens from my
glasses, which is starting to fall out twice a day. I couldn't find it where
it ought to have fallen, but a half hour before I was supposed to leave, it
showed up in the living room on the floor next to my chair. Haven't figured
that one out, yet. And I'm not going to waste time on it.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Sony TV remote
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/2e883b52d92cffcc?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 1:46 am
From: Nelson

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 12:47:51 -0400, Al Moodie wrote
(in article <el7c779qf2lr64diq53tfkk29ho56apps0@4ax.com>):

> Hi,
>
> I have a sony KDL-40S2010 LCD TV, it works just fine. However the
> remote RM YD005 is failing again. It works but you have to use extra
> force and wiggle the buttons to get it to operate. Poorest operation
> is with buttons which are used most often, Mute, Volume, Channel
> change, so I assume is is wear or contamination problem.
>
> Last time I bought a replacement on EBay for $18 or thereabouts. I can
> always buy another, but can it be fixed, is it worth the work
>
> Al Moodie.

My wife is always spilling coke (a cola) on them or some other nasty
thing. I have never had a problem opening them up, cleaning them with
water, letting them dry out, and then reassembling them. Same works
for pagers dropped in the toilet :-).

The trickiest part is to figure out how to open it up without breaking
it. Most of them are clamshell cases with plastic tabs hidden under
the joints. Take your time and pry gently.

You can also buy a universal remote and program it.

--
Nelson

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 3:34 am
From: "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"

Nelson wrote:
>
> You can also buy a universal remote and program it.
>

This may not apply to the new Sony sets, but ours (old ones) used a channel
number button to turn on. The power button only turned off the set.

This was fine until the remotes on our DBS system died. When we replaced them
the new ones channel buttons do not affect the TV. The volume buttons do, but
not the channel ones, I assume they assume you set the TV once and never
change the channel.

BTW, there are various brands of graphite solution in alcohol that can be used
to repair the conductive surface. Unfortunately they are not legal to mail
outside the country and I can't get any. I use DeOxit to clean them as
best I can, but can't really replace the graphite.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 4:05 am
From: "N_Cook"

Al Moodie <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:el7c779qf2lr64diq53tfkk29ho56apps0@4ax.com...
> Hi,
>
> I have a sony KDL-40S2010 LCD TV, it works just fine. However the
> remote RM YD005 is failing again. It works but you have to use extra
> force and wiggle the buttons to get it to operate. Poorest operation
> is with buttons which are used most often, Mute, Volume, Channel
> change, so I assume is is wear or contamination problem.
>
> Last time I bought a replacement on EBay for $18 or thereabouts. I can
> always buy another, but can it be fixed, is it worth the work
>
> Al Moodie.

Something that has improved over the years. 20 years ago it was more common
to have failed contacts rather than due to grime, now its rarely failed
contacts.

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 7:14 am
From: Al Moodie

Hi,

Thanks for all the info. I will try openning it up and cleaning it.

Al Moodie.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: splice fail
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/cae74cda683b83fa?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 1:54 am
From: Nelson

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 15:25:48 -0400, newb wrote
(in article
<9461012.1621.1316373948844.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@prgd31>):

> My Sennheiser HD 202 headphones developed a short in one channel about ~8"
> from the plug. I cut the wire before and afterwards, joined the wire,
> tested and didn't experience any sound. I disconnected the splice and
> attached the bear wires from one side of the headphones to a pair of wires
> entering a speaker on my home system. No sound. I cut another 10" off and

> tested that section for resistance - that failed (all 4 wires joined on both
> sides of the 10" section). The phones aren't designed with maintenance in
> mind so I can't do a resistance test at the speaker ends.
>
> Maybe this has something to do with the wire used in the headphones. There
> are two pairs (red/copper, green/copper) of stranded copper wrapped around
> nylon fibers. Does this type of wire have a proper name or require special
> considerations when splicing?
>
> Was attaching these wires onto my home speaker out a valid test? Ugh,
> splice fail ... I'm not a 10 year old girl but today I feel like one ....

My wife goes through a set of iPod earphones every month. You would
think someone would develop a cord design that wouldn't fatigue. I
have found that attempting to locate the break and repair it is usually
a fool's errand.

Since it doesn't seem to be a function of how expensive the earphones
are, my solution is to buy cheap ones in bulk from Woot or the
equivalent and just throw them away when they break.

--
Nelson

== 2 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 3:39 am
From: "Geoffrey S. Mendelson"

Nelson wrote:
>
> My wife goes through a set of iPod earphones every month. You would
> think someone would develop a cord design that wouldn't fatigue. I
> have found that attempting to locate the break and repair it is usually
> a fool's errand.

It depends. All of mine break at the point the wire enters the headphone.
I now have 4 pair "in the queue" waiting for me to open them up, and cut
the wire and resolder it.

My son is the exact opposite, he always breaks the wire where it connects
to the plug. I sometimes put new plugs on them, but the last set was under
warranty, and I told him to take them back.

Some people have patterns, some don't. :-)

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge.

== 3 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 8:44 am
From: "malua mada!"

On Sep 19, 3:39 am, "Geoffrey S. Mendelson" <g...@mendelson.com>
wrote:
> Nelson wrote:

> My son is the exact opposite, he always breaks the wire where it connects
> to the plug. I sometimes put new plugs on them
<snip>

Once you chop off the molded shell on the plug and clean it up it is
fairly easy to solder to, easier IMO than the store bought tab/ shell
deals. I then use Epoxy filler to shape a unique plug body (comes as
a dough stick - cut off required amount, knead to mix, apply). Tubing
for flex relief...

== 4 of 4 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 1:03 pm
From: Jeffrey Angus

On 9/19/2011 10:44 AM, malua mada! wrote:
> I then use Epoxy filler to shape a unique plug body (comes as
> a dough stick

I found out the hard way that JB Weld, as good as it is, is
conductive.

Jeff

--
"Everything from Crackers to Coffins"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Contactor coil: 50 Hz vs. 60 Hz
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/0d1a06068779ce43?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 2:19 am
From: NT

On Sep 9, 5:33 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
> Jamie wrote:
> > ehsjr wrote:
>
> >> Jamie wrote:
>
> >>> ehsjr wrote:
>
> >>>> NT wrote:
>
> >>>>> On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>> Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>
> >>>>>>>>>> and if the relay is
> >>>>>>>>>> designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its
> >>>>>>>>>> coil, how
> >>>>>>>>>> can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>
> >>>>>>>>> With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC
> >>>>>>>>> you
> >>>>>>>>> proposed using 174v rms,
>
> >>>>>>>> No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
> >>>>>>>> full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to
> >>>>>>>> get
> >>>>>>>> smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>
> >>>>>>> fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
> >>>>>>> matters.
>
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>> Then show me your circuit.
>
> >>>>>> Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
> >>>>>> relay using diodes and 120V mains.
> >>>>>> ---
>
> >>>>>>>>> that would be ok on your specific relay, but
> >>>>>>>>> not a universal solution.
>
> >>>>>>>> ???
>
> >>>>>>> Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
> >>>>>>> some relays it will fry them.
>
> >>>>>> ---
> >>>>>> Show me.
>
> >>>>> If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
> >>>>> starting to get silly.
>
> >>>> Worth investigating, to me. JF gave a specific relay & numbers. I
> >>>> tried to find a relay to support the idea that an AC/DC relay would
> >>>> be happy with DC voltage about 50% of AC rating. Can you please
> >>>> provide a reference?
>
> >>>> Meanwhile, what I did find was an ap note from Tyco entitled
> >>>> "Operating DC Relays from AC and Vice-Versa" .
> >>>>http://relays.te.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3250.pdf
>
> >>>> It does not agree with the DC at ~50% of AC rating idea. It uses
> >>>> the example of a KR series relay coil. Their example uses a 12
> >>>> volt AC relay fed by DC. The example states that the "DC voltage
> >>>> cannot exceed 9.8 volts", and "should not be lower than 7.35 volts".
> >>>> Thus the DC range would be ~61%(minimum) to ~81% (maximum) of the
> >>>> 12VAC rating.
>
> >>>> Extrapolating, it does agree with the idea of BR+C fed by 120 for
> >>>> the 240 volt relay, insofar as the DC voltage:
> >>>> ~146VDC min to ~194VDC max, which makes the midpoint ~170VDC.
> >>>> That's very close to ~168 from the BR+C
>
> >>>> Regarding coil ratings, I've worked with DC relays, and I've worked
> >>>> with AC relays, but I haven't worked with AC/DC coil relays, so
> >>>> I can't speak from experience with them, and I haven't found
> >>>> anything yet specifically dealing with that, other than the
> >>>> link I found to Tyco. So a specific link or links would be
> >>>> most helpful.
>
> >>>> Thanks,
> >>>> Ed
>
> >>> You must remember that AC coil relays are wound a little different,
> >>> its not just induction here. Inter pole windings help keep the AC
> >>> coil from chattering the armature. I am sure under DC operation, this
> >>> may effect the calculations.
>
> >>> There are some AC coil relays that do not do this and thus the 50%
> >>> voltage for DC should come close, but then again, DC R in the coil also
> >>> plays a role in this.
>
> >>> Jamie
>
> >> Your post contains nothing specific and does not address
> >> my question.
>
> >> I am looking for a specific link or links that shows a datasheet,
> >> ap note, or example of a relay that NT has in mind. Do you have one?
>
> >> I want specifics, like John Fields posted; the specs that NT
> >> said you could get: "If you want to go get some specs of other
> >> relays, you can." The specs I have been able to find so far
> >> do not demonstrate what NT was talking about, thus my post
> >> asking for a reference.
>
> >> Ed
>
> > Don't be anal, they make relays that will do AD/DC because they have a
> > diode imbedded in them. The voltage ratings are the same. The coil is
> > actually of DC type.. They also have relays with shunt diodes built into
> > them, for those you need to insure the polarity is correct and are
> > strictly DC only.
>
> > We also deal with solenoids to operate in the same manner..
>
> > Scroll down and read about AC coils, I am sure if you're looking for
> > some more detailed information you can find it, but this will explain
> > some of the differences.
>
> >http://www.ehow.com/about_6498402_difference-ac-dc-relay-coil.html
>
> > Jamie
>
> I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.
> While I do appreciate your attempt to help, I must say it misses
> the point.
>
> I want a *specific* link to an *AC/DC* relay of the type *NT*
> had in mind, or to an ap note or reference that discusses a relay
> coil that is rated for *both* AC and DC as he indicated.
>
> Do you have a link to what NT was talking about? Here's what
> he said:
> "The various ones I've seen that have coil 2 ratings, one for ac one
> for dc, have consistently had the dc coil rating be half the ac
> voltage rating."
>
> I _do not_ need generalizations, hand waving and condescending
> responses. You mentioned a relay that will "do" DC because it
> has an imbedded (sic) diode and say "The voltage ratings are the
> same." That is *NOT* what NT said. He talks about the dc
> coil rating being half the ac rating.
>
> Ed

I got the time to do some googling, and the dual rated relays I found
were all rated at teh same voltage ac and dc, albeit with 2 different
currents. The dual rated ones I used were all a fair few years ago, I
remember it pretty well though, being struck at first by the dual
rating thing. I wonder if design has shifted over time. These old
relays were quite a lot bigger than the typical pcb ones of today,
which would fit with more L & less R in their coils.

== 2 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 8:32 am
From: Jamie

NT wrote:

> On Sep 9, 5:33 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>>>NT wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>and if the relay is
>>>>>>>>>>>>designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its
>>>>>>>>>>>>coil, how
>>>>>>>>>>>>can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC
>>>>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>>>proposed using 174v rms,
>>
>>>>>>>>>>No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
>>>>>>>>>>full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to
>>>>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>>>smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>>
>>>>>>>>>fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
>>>>>>>>>matters.
>>
>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>Then show me your circuit.
>>
>>>>>>>>Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
>>>>>>>>relay using diodes and 120V mains.
>>>>>>>>---
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>that would be ok on your specific relay, but
>>>>>>>>>>>not a universal solution.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>???
>>
>>>>>>>>>Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
>>>>>>>>>some relays it will fry them.
>>
>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>Show me.
>>
>>>>>>>If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
>>>>>>>starting to get silly.
>>
>>>>>>Worth investigating, to me. JF gave a specific relay & numbers. I
>>>>>>tried to find a relay to support the idea that an AC/DC relay would
>>>>>>be happy with DC voltage about 50% of AC rating. Can you please
>>>>>>provide a reference?
>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, what I did find was an ap note from Tyco entitled
>>>>>>"Operating DC Relays from AC and Vice-Versa" .
>>>>>>http://relays.te.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3250.pdf
>>
>>>>>>It does not agree with the DC at ~50% of AC rating idea. It uses
>>>>>>the example of a KR series relay coil. Their example uses a 12
>>>>>>volt AC relay fed by DC. The example states that the "DC voltage
>>>>>>cannot exceed 9.8 volts", and "should not be lower than 7.35 volts".
>>>>>>Thus the DC range would be ~61%(minimum) to ~81% (maximum) of the
>>>>>>12VAC rating.
>>
>>>>>>Extrapolating, it does agree with the idea of BR+C fed by 120 for
>>>>>>the 240 volt relay, insofar as the DC voltage:
>>>>>>~146VDC min to ~194VDC max, which makes the midpoint ~170VDC.
>>>>>>That's very close to ~168 from the BR+C
>>
>>>>>>Regarding coil ratings, I've worked with DC relays, and I've worked
>>>>>>with AC relays, but I haven't worked with AC/DC coil relays, so
>>>>>>I can't speak from experience with them, and I haven't found
>>>>>>anything yet specifically dealing with that, other than the
>>>>>>link I found to Tyco. So a specific link or links would be
>>>>>>most helpful.
>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Ed
>>
>>>>> You must remember that AC coil relays are wound a little different,
>>>>>its not just induction here. Inter pole windings help keep the AC
>>>>>coil from chattering the armature. I am sure under DC operation, this
>>>>>may effect the calculations.
>>
>>>>> There are some AC coil relays that do not do this and thus the 50%
>>>>>voltage for DC should come close, but then again, DC R in the coil also
>>>>> plays a role in this.
>>
>>>>> Jamie
>>
>>>>Your post contains nothing specific and does not address
>>>>my question.
>>
>>>>I am looking for a specific link or links that shows a datasheet,
>>>>ap note, or example of a relay that NT has in mind. Do you have one?
>>
>>>>I want specifics, like John Fields posted; the specs that NT
>>>>said you could get: "If you want to go get some specs of other
>>>>relays, you can." The specs I have been able to find so far
>>>>do not demonstrate what NT was talking about, thus my post
>>>>asking for a reference.
>>
>>>>Ed
>>
>>>Don't be anal, they make relays that will do AD/DC because they have a
>>>diode imbedded in them. The voltage ratings are the same. The coil is
>>>actually of DC type.. They also have relays with shunt diodes built into
>>>them, for those you need to insure the polarity is correct and are
>>>strictly DC only.
>>
>>> We also deal with solenoids to operate in the same manner..
>>
>>>Scroll down and read about AC coils, I am sure if you're looking for
>>>some more detailed information you can find it, but this will explain
>>>some of the differences.
>>
>>>http://www.ehow.com/about_6498402_difference-ac-dc-relay-coil.html
>>
>>>Jamie
>>
>>I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.
>>While I do appreciate your attempt to help, I must say it misses
>>the point.
>>
>>I want a *specific* link to an *AC/DC* relay of the type *NT*
>>had in mind, or to an ap note or reference that discusses a relay
>>coil that is rated for *both* AC and DC as he indicated.
>>
>>Do you have a link to what NT was talking about? Here's what
>>he said:
>>"The various ones I've seen that have coil 2 ratings, one for ac one
>>for dc, have consistently had the dc coil rating be half the ac
>>voltage rating."
>>
>>I _do not_ need generalizations, hand waving and condescending
>>responses. You mentioned a relay that will "do" DC because it
>>has an imbedded (sic) diode and say "The voltage ratings are the
>>same." That is *NOT* what NT said. He talks about the dc
>>coil rating being half the ac rating.
>>
>>Ed
>
>
>
> I got the time to do some googling, and the dual rated relays I found
> were all rated at teh same voltage ac and dc, albeit with 2 different
> currents. The dual rated ones I used were all a fair few years ago, I
> remember it pretty well though, being struck at first by the dual
> rating thing. I wonder if design has shifted over time. These old
> relays were quite a lot bigger than the typical pcb ones of today,
> which would fit with more L & less R in their coils.
>
>
> NT
You must remember that a lot of viewers here are not or have not been
exposed to some of the large body and odd styles of relays made over the
years.

What I love is when one of the dual coils that have the Diodes in them
end up shorting a diode. THe unit will still work, it just makes the
contactor noisy, in some cases, very noisy, but they still work.

Jamie

== 3 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 9:25 am
From: ehsjr

NT wrote:
> On Sep 9, 5:33 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>>>NT wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>and if the relay is
>>>>>>>>>>>>designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its
>>>>>>>>>>>>coil, how
>>>>>>>>>>>>can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC
>>>>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>>>proposed using 174v rms,
>>
>>>>>>>>>>No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
>>>>>>>>>>full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to
>>>>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>>>smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>>
>>>>>>>>>fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
>>>>>>>>>matters.
>>
>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>Then show me your circuit.
>>
>>>>>>>>Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
>>>>>>>>relay using diodes and 120V mains.
>>>>>>>>---
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>that would be ok on your specific relay, but
>>>>>>>>>>>not a universal solution.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>???
>>
>>>>>>>>>Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
>>>>>>>>>some relays it will fry them.
>>
>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>Show me.
>>
>>>>>>>If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
>>>>>>>starting to get silly.
>>
>>>>>>Worth investigating, to me. JF gave a specific relay & numbers. I
>>>>>>tried to find a relay to support the idea that an AC/DC relay would
>>>>>>be happy with DC voltage about 50% of AC rating. Can you please
>>>>>>provide a reference?
>>
>>>>>>Meanwhile, what I did find was an ap note from Tyco entitled
>>>>>>"Operating DC Relays from AC and Vice-Versa" .
>>>>>>http://relays.te.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3250.pdf
>>
>>>>>>It does not agree with the DC at ~50% of AC rating idea. It uses
>>>>>>the example of a KR series relay coil. Their example uses a 12
>>>>>>volt AC relay fed by DC. The example states that the "DC voltage
>>>>>>cannot exceed 9.8 volts", and "should not be lower than 7.35 volts".
>>>>>>Thus the DC range would be ~61%(minimum) to ~81% (maximum) of the
>>>>>>12VAC rating.
>>
>>>>>>Extrapolating, it does agree with the idea of BR+C fed by 120 for
>>>>>>the 240 volt relay, insofar as the DC voltage:
>>>>>>~146VDC min to ~194VDC max, which makes the midpoint ~170VDC.
>>>>>>That's very close to ~168 from the BR+C
>>
>>>>>>Regarding coil ratings, I've worked with DC relays, and I've worked
>>>>>>with AC relays, but I haven't worked with AC/DC coil relays, so
>>>>>>I can't speak from experience with them, and I haven't found
>>>>>>anything yet specifically dealing with that, other than the
>>>>>>link I found to Tyco. So a specific link or links would be
>>>>>>most helpful.
>>
>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>Ed
>>
>>>>> You must remember that AC coil relays are wound a little different,
>>>>>its not just induction here. Inter pole windings help keep the AC
>>>>>coil from chattering the armature. I am sure under DC operation, this
>>>>>may effect the calculations.
>>
>>>>> There are some AC coil relays that do not do this and thus the 50%
>>>>>voltage for DC should come close, but then again, DC R in the coil also
>>>>> plays a role in this.
>>
>>>>> Jamie
>>
>>>>Your post contains nothing specific and does not address
>>>>my question.
>>
>>>>I am looking for a specific link or links that shows a datasheet,
>>>>ap note, or example of a relay that NT has in mind. Do you have one?
>>
>>>>I want specifics, like John Fields posted; the specs that NT
>>>>said you could get: "If you want to go get some specs of other
>>>>relays, you can." The specs I have been able to find so far
>>>>do not demonstrate what NT was talking about, thus my post
>>>>asking for a reference.
>>
>>>>Ed
>>
>>>Don't be anal, they make relays that will do AD/DC because they have a
>>>diode imbedded in them. The voltage ratings are the same. The coil is
>>>actually of DC type.. They also have relays with shunt diodes built into
>>>them, for those you need to insure the polarity is correct and are
>>>strictly DC only.
>>
>>> We also deal with solenoids to operate in the same manner..
>>
>>>Scroll down and read about AC coils, I am sure if you're looking for
>>>some more detailed information you can find it, but this will explain
>>>some of the differences.
>>
>>>http://www.ehow.com/about_6498402_difference-ac-dc-relay-coil.html
>>
>>>Jamie
>>
>>I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.
>>While I do appreciate your attempt to help, I must say it misses
>>the point.
>>
>>I want a *specific* link to an *AC/DC* relay of the type *NT*
>>had in mind, or to an ap note or reference that discusses a relay
>>coil that is rated for *both* AC and DC as he indicated.
>>
>>Do you have a link to what NT was talking about? Here's what
>>he said:
>>"The various ones I've seen that have coil 2 ratings, one for ac one
>>for dc, have consistently had the dc coil rating be half the ac
>>voltage rating."
>>
>>I _do not_ need generalizations, hand waving and condescending
>>responses. You mentioned a relay that will "do" DC because it
>>has an imbedded (sic) diode and say "The voltage ratings are the
>>same." That is *NOT* what NT said. He talks about the dc
>>coil rating being half the ac rating.
>>
>>Ed
>
>
>
> I got the time to do some googling, and the dual rated relays I found
> were all rated at teh same voltage ac and dc, albeit with 2 different
> currents. The dual rated ones I used were all a fair few years ago, I
> remember it pretty well though, being struck at first by the dual
> rating thing. I wonder if design has shifted over time. These old
> relays were quite a lot bigger than the typical pcb ones of today,
> which would fit with more L & less R in their coils.
>
>
> NT

Thanks. I found the same thing as you when I googled - the dual
rated relays were all rated at the same voltage - and that prompted
my original question. Maybe Jamie has a specific reference to
an old relay that has the dual rating with the DC rating at ~1/2
the AC rating. Do you remember if the ones you wrote about
had dual coils - or was it just single coil relays rated that way?

I suppose it doesn't matter if those relays are no longer available,
but there is a fascination in trying to figure it out. I can't see
how/why they would make a relay that operates on DC at half the AC
rating. The physics says it can't be a single coil relay, unless
the manufacturer is playing fast and loose with the ratings.
I can see it if the thing has a cap across the coil and a dropping
resistor in series, but then I don't see why a manufacturer would
do that.

== 4 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 12:31 pm
From: NT

On Sep 19, 5:25 pm, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
> NT wrote:
> > On Sep 9, 5:33 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>
> >>Jamie wrote:
>
> >>>ehsjr wrote:
>
> >>>>Jamie wrote:
>
> >>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>
> >>>>>>NT wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>
> >>>>>>>>Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>and if the relay is
> >>>>>>>>>>>>designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its
> >>>>>>>>>>>>coil, how
> >>>>>>>>>>>>can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC
> >>>>>>>>>>>you
> >>>>>>>>>>>proposed using 174v rms,
>
> >>>>>>>>>>No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
> >>>>>>>>>>full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to
> >>>>>>>>>>get
> >>>>>>>>>>smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>
> >>>>>>>>>fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
> >>>>>>>>>matters.
>
> >>>>>>>>---
> >>>>>>>>Then show me your circuit.
>
> >>>>>>>>Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
> >>>>>>>>relay using diodes and 120V mains.
> >>>>>>>>---
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>that would be ok on your specific relay, but
> >>>>>>>>>>>not a universal solution.
>
> >>>>>>>>>>???
>
> >>>>>>>>>Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
> >>>>>>>>>some relays it will fry them.
>
> >>>>>>>>---
> >>>>>>>>Show me.
>
> >>>>>>>If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
> >>>>>>>starting to get silly.
>
> >>>>>>Worth investigating, to me. JF gave a specific relay & numbers. I
> >>>>>>tried to find a relay to support the idea that an AC/DC relay would
> >>>>>>be happy with DC voltage about 50% of AC rating. Can you please
> >>>>>>provide a reference?
>
> >>>>>>Meanwhile, what I did find was an ap note from Tyco entitled
> >>>>>>"Operating DC Relays from AC and Vice-Versa" .
> >>>>>>http://relays.te.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3250.pdf
>
> >>>>>>It does not agree with the DC at ~50% of AC rating idea. It uses
> >>>>>>the example of a KR series relay coil. Their example uses a 12
> >>>>>>volt AC relay fed by DC. The example states that the "DC voltage
> >>>>>>cannot exceed 9.8 volts", and "should not be lower than 7.35 volts".
> >>>>>>Thus the DC range would be ~61%(minimum) to ~81% (maximum) of the
> >>>>>>12VAC rating.
>
> >>>>>>Extrapolating, it does agree with the idea of BR+C fed by 120 for
> >>>>>>the 240 volt relay, insofar as the DC voltage:
> >>>>>>~146VDC min to ~194VDC max, which makes the midpoint ~170VDC.
> >>>>>>That's very close to ~168 from the BR+C
>
> >>>>>>Regarding coil ratings, I've worked with DC relays, and I've worked
> >>>>>>with AC relays, but I haven't worked with AC/DC coil relays, so
> >>>>>>I can't speak from experience with them, and I haven't found
> >>>>>>anything yet specifically dealing with that, other than the
> >>>>>>link I found to Tyco. So a specific link or links would be
> >>>>>>most helpful.
>
> >>>>>>Thanks,
> >>>>>>Ed
>
> >>>>> You must remember that AC coil relays are wound a little different,
> >>>>>its not just induction here. Inter pole windings help keep the AC
> >>>>>coil from chattering the armature. I am sure under DC operation, this
> >>>>>may effect the calculations.
>
> >>>>> There are some AC coil relays that do not do this and thus the 50%
> >>>>>voltage for DC should come close, but then again, DC R in the coil also
> >>>>> plays a role in this.
>
> >>>>> Jamie
>
> >>>>Your post contains nothing specific and does not address
> >>>>my question.
>
> >>>>I am looking for a specific link or links that shows a datasheet,
> >>>>ap note, or example of a relay that NT has in mind. Do you have one?
>
> >>>>I want specifics, like John Fields posted; the specs that NT
> >>>>said you could get: "If you want to go get some specs of other
> >>>>relays, you can." The specs I have been able to find so far
> >>>>do not demonstrate what NT was talking about, thus my post
> >>>>asking for a reference.
>
> >>>>Ed
>
> >>>Don't be anal, they make relays that will do AD/DC because they have a
> >>>diode imbedded in them. The voltage ratings are the same. The coil is
> >>>actually of DC type.. They also have relays with shunt diodes built into
> >>>them, for those you need to insure the polarity is correct and are
> >>>strictly DC only.
>
> >>> We also deal with solenoids to operate in the same manner..
>
> >>>Scroll down and read about AC coils, I am sure if you're looking for
> >>>some more detailed information you can find it, but this will explain
> >>>some of the differences.
>
> >>>http://www.ehow.com/about_6498402_difference-ac-dc-relay-coil.html
>
> >>>Jamie
>
> >>I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.
> >>While I do appreciate your attempt to help, I must say it misses
> >>the point.
>
> >>I want a *specific* link to an *AC/DC* relay of the type *NT*
> >>had in mind, or to an ap note or reference that discusses a relay
> >>coil that is rated for *both* AC and DC as he indicated.
>
> >>Do you have a link to what NT was talking about? Here's what
> >>he said:
> >>"The various ones I've seen that have coil 2 ratings, one for ac one
> >>for dc, have consistently had the dc coil rating be half the ac
> >>voltage rating."
>
> >>I _do not_ need generalizations, hand waving and condescending
> >>responses. You mentioned a relay that will "do" DC because it
> >>has an imbedded (sic) diode and say "The voltage ratings are the
> >>same." That is *NOT* what NT said. He talks about the dc
> >>coil rating being half the ac rating.
>
> >>Ed
>
> > I got the time to do some googling, and the dual rated relays I found
> > were all rated at teh same voltage ac and dc, albeit with 2 different
> > currents. The dual rated ones I used were all a fair few years ago, I
> > remember it pretty well though, being struck at first by the dual
> > rating thing. I wonder if design has shifted over time. These old
> > relays were quite a lot bigger than the typical pcb ones of today,
> > which would fit with more L & less R in their coils.
>
> > NT
>
> Thanks. I found the same thing as you when I googled - the dual
> rated relays were all rated at the same voltage - and that prompted
> my original question. Maybe Jamie has a specific reference to
> an old relay that has the dual rating with the DC rating at ~1/2
> the AC rating. Do you remember if the ones you wrote about
> had dual coils - or was it just single coil relays rated that way?
>
> I suppose it doesn't matter if those relays are no longer available,
> but there is a fascination in trying to figure it out. I can't see
> how/why they would make a relay that operates on DC at half the AC
> rating. The physics says it can't be a single coil relay, unless
> the manufacturer is playing fast and loose with the ratings.
> I can see it if the thing has a cap across the coil and a dropping
> resistor in series, but then I don't see why a manufacturer would
> do that.
>
> Ed

They were all single coil. With the right ratio of L and R, 24v ac and
12v dc will give the same coil current.

== 5 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 12:35 pm
From: NT

They were all single coil. With the right ratio of L and R, 24v ac and
12v dc will give the same coil current. It seems today's miniature pcb
relays are more R dominated, hence the currents are similar at 12v ac
and 12v dc.

== 6 of 6 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 1:12 pm
From: Jamie

NT wrote:

> On Sep 19, 5:25 pm, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>
>>NT wrote:
>>
>>>On Sep 9, 5:33 am, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
>>
>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>NT wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>On Sep 2, 8:41 pm, John Fields <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>>>>>Snipped a lot of repetitious, self serving nonsense.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>and if the relay is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>designed to operate on AC with a certain RMS current in its
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>coil, how
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>can it possibly overheat if that current is DC?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>With the same current it wont, with higher curren ti will. IIRC
>>>>>>>>>>>>>you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>proposed using 174v rms,
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>No, I merely added a capacitor across the output of _your_ proposed
>>>>>>>>>>>>full wave rectified 120 VRMS 60Hz source (170V peak) in order to
>>>>>>>>>>>>get
>>>>>>>>>>>>smoothed DC closer to the relay's must-make current.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>fwliw I said use diodes, you came back with a FW BR. I dont think it
>>>>>>>>>>>matters.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>>Then show me your circuit.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>Just in case you've forgotten, your suggestion was to use a 240V AC
>>>>>>>>>>relay using diodes and 120V mains.
>>>>>>>>>>---
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>that would be ok on your specific relay, but
>>>>>>>>>>>>>not a universal solution.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>???
>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Your proposd BR+C delivers the right i for one specific relay. For
>>>>>>>>>>>some relays it will fry them.
>>
>>>>>>>>>>---
>>>>>>>>>>Show me.
>>
>>>>>>>>>If you want to go get some specs of other relays, you can. This is
>>>>>>>>>starting to get silly.
>>
>>>>>>>>Worth investigating, to me. JF gave a specific relay & numbers. I
>>>>>>>>tried to find a relay to support the idea that an AC/DC relay would
>>>>>>>>be happy with DC voltage about 50% of AC rating. Can you please
>>>>>>>>provide a reference?
>>
>>>>>>>>Meanwhile, what I did find was an ap note from Tyco entitled
>>>>>>>>"Operating DC Relays from AC and Vice-Versa" .
>>>>>>>>http://relays.te.com/appnotes/app_pdfs/13c3250.pdf
>>
>>>>>>>>It does not agree with the DC at ~50% of AC rating idea. It uses
>>>>>>>>the example of a KR series relay coil. Their example uses a 12
>>>>>>>>volt AC relay fed by DC. The example states that the "DC voltage
>>>>>>>>cannot exceed 9.8 volts", and "should not be lower than 7.35 volts".
>>>>>>>>Thus the DC range would be ~61%(minimum) to ~81% (maximum) of the
>>>>>>>>12VAC rating.
>>
>>>>>>>>Extrapolating, it does agree with the idea of BR+C fed by 120 for
>>>>>>>>the 240 volt relay, insofar as the DC voltage:
>>>>>>>>~146VDC min to ~194VDC max, which makes the midpoint ~170VDC.
>>>>>>>>That's very close to ~168 from the BR+C
>>
>>>>>>>>Regarding coil ratings, I've worked with DC relays, and I've worked
>>>>>>>>with AC relays, but I haven't worked with AC/DC coil relays, so
>>>>>>>>I can't speak from experience with them, and I haven't found
>>>>>>>>anything yet specifically dealing with that, other than the
>>>>>>>>link I found to Tyco. So a specific link or links would be
>>>>>>>>most helpful.
>>
>>>>>>>>Thanks,
>>>>>>>>Ed
>>
>>>>>>> You must remember that AC coil relays are wound a little different,
>>>>>>>its not just induction here. Inter pole windings help keep the AC
>>>>>>>coil from chattering the armature. I am sure under DC operation, this
>>>>>>>may effect the calculations.
>>
>>>>>>> There are some AC coil relays that do not do this and thus the 50%
>>>>>>>voltage for DC should come close, but then again, DC R in the coil also
>>>>>>>plays a role in this.
>>
>>>>>>>Jamie
>>
>>>>>>Your post contains nothing specific and does not address
>>>>>>my question.
>>
>>>>>>I am looking for a specific link or links that shows a datasheet,
>>>>>>ap note, or example of a relay that NT has in mind. Do you have one?
>>
>>>>>>I want specifics, like John Fields posted; the specs that NT
>>>>>>said you could get: "If you want to go get some specs of other
>>>>>>relays, you can." The specs I have been able to find so far
>>>>>>do not demonstrate what NT was talking about, thus my post
>>>>>>asking for a reference.
>>
>>>>>>Ed
>>
>>>>>Don't be anal, they make relays that will do AD/DC because they have a
>>>>>diode imbedded in them. The voltage ratings are the same. The coil is
>>>>>actually of DC type.. They also have relays with shunt diodes built into
>>>>>them, for those you need to insure the polarity is correct and are
>>>>>strictly DC only.
>>
>>>>> We also deal with solenoids to operate in the same manner..
>>
>>>>>Scroll down and read about AC coils, I am sure if you're looking for
>>>>>some more detailed information you can find it, but this will explain
>>>>>some of the differences.
>>
>>>>>http://www.ehow.com/about_6498402_difference-ac-dc-relay-coil.html
>>
>>>>>Jamie
>>
>>>>I don't know how to make it clear enough for you to understand.
>>>>While I do appreciate your attempt to help, I must say it misses
>>>>the point.
>>
>>>>I want a *specific* link to an *AC/DC* relay of the type *NT*
>>>>had in mind, or to an ap note or reference that discusses a relay
>>>>coil that is rated for *both* AC and DC as he indicated.
>>
>>>>Do you have a link to what NT was talking about? Here's what
>>>>he said:
>>>>"The various ones I've seen that have coil 2 ratings, one for ac one
>>>>for dc, have consistently had the dc coil rating be half the ac
>>>>voltage rating."
>>
>>>>I _do not_ need generalizations, hand waving and condescending
>>>>responses. You mentioned a relay that will "do" DC because it
>>>>has an imbedded (sic) diode and say "The voltage ratings are the
>>>>same." That is *NOT* what NT said. He talks about the dc
>>>>coil rating being half the ac rating.
>>
>>>>Ed
>>
>>>I got the time to do some googling, and the dual rated relays I found
>>>were all rated at teh same voltage ac and dc, albeit with 2 different
>>>currents. The dual rated ones I used were all a fair few years ago, I
>>>remember it pretty well though, being struck at first by the dual
>>>rating thing. I wonder if design has shifted over time. These old
>>>relays were quite a lot bigger than the typical pcb ones of today,
>>>which would fit with more L & less R in their coils.
>>
>>>NT
>>
>>Thanks. I found the same thing as you when I googled - the dual
>>rated relays were all rated at the same voltage - and that prompted
>>my original question. Maybe Jamie has a specific reference to
>>an old relay that has the dual rating with the DC rating at ~1/2
>>the AC rating. Do you remember if the ones you wrote about
>>had dual coils - or was it just single coil relays rated that way?
>>
>>I suppose it doesn't matter if those relays are no longer available,
>>but there is a fascination in trying to figure it out. I can't see
>>how/why they would make a relay that operates on DC at half the AC
>>rating. The physics says it can't be a single coil relay, unless
>>the manufacturer is playing fast and loose with the ratings.
>>I can see it if the thing has a cap across the coil and a dropping
>>resistor in series, but then I don't see why a manufacturer would
>>do that.
>>
>>Ed
>
>
> They were all single coil. With the right ratio of L and R, 24v ac and
> 12v dc will give the same coil current. It seems today's miniature pcb
> relays are more R dominated, hence the currents are similar at 12v ac
> and 12v dc.
>
>
> NT
I think you're studdering today, seems like we're getting double post! :)

To add to that comment, we still have standard 24V AC coil relays that
we can use with 12VDC. With the R of the coil, its a good way to lower
the Q of the coil and remove side effects on the control line. It Just
happens to work out for many cases that you can do this.

Jamie

==============================================================================
TOPIC: TL064 in PV 212 Deuce, VT Series, 1980
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/335a27fd0c57212f?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 3:12 am
From: "Wild_Bill"

Good on you for doing a decent job. The "fix" solution I mentioned was
intended as a troubleshooting tip, as I stated "contrary to an actual
repair".

What surprises me is that there aren't dozens (or more) substitute ICs that
would work for this application of switching (even if not a pin-for-pin
exact replacement), since nearly every electronic product has eliminated the
use of real switches with keypads or other momentary button actuations which
latch/unlatch various features or functions (without using relays).

I won't be looking up switching ICs in databooks (as I might've done when I
was younger).. I'll rely on Peavey's solution, too.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:j4t07f$cur$1@dont-email.me...
>
> Back working again. A neat 1 x 3/4 inch matrix board mounted vertically,
> enough space, with lowest .2 inches tied and glued around an 8 pin turned
> pin socket to fit into the existing socket. Bridging wires dsoldered into
> the turned pins. Sockets glued together as now a rockable assembly.
>
> This is the node map
> TL604 , DG211
> pin1 , pin5
> p2 , p8 + p16
> p3 , p2
> p4 , p7
> p5 , p4
> p6 , p6
> p7 , p3
> p8 , via 10K to p13
>
> DG211 additional comps
> p1 via 4K7 to p5
> p5 low side of 5V zener high side to p12
> p12 via SM 10K to p13
>
> I've left the 2 unused 211 controls unterminated, as in pv cct, just in
> case circuit critical but probably should be tied to DC
>
>

== 2 of 2 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 4:03 am
From: "N_Cook"

Wild_Bill <wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:IAEdq.181568$fD6.87698@en-nntp-02.dc1.easynews.com...
> Good on you for doing a decent job. The "fix" solution I mentioned was
> intended as a troubleshooting tip, as I stated "contrary to an actual
> repair".
>
> What surprises me is that there aren't dozens (or more) substitute ICs
that
> would work for this application of switching (even if not a pin-for-pin
> exact replacement), since nearly every electronic product has eliminated
the
> use of real switches with keypads or other momentary button actuations
which
> latch/unlatch various features or functions (without using relays).
>
> I won't be looking up switching ICs in databooks (as I might've done when
I
> was younger).. I'll rely on Peavey's solution, too.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> WB
> .............
>
>
> "N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:j4t07f$cur$1@dont-email.me...
> >
> > Back working again. A neat 1 x 3/4 inch matrix board mounted vertically,
> > enough space, with lowest .2 inches tied and glued around an 8 pin
turned
> > pin socket to fit into the existing socket. Bridging wires dsoldered
into
> > the turned pins. Sockets glued together as now a rockable assembly.
> >
> > This is the node map
> > TL604 , DG211
> > pin1 , pin5
> > p2 , p8 + p16
> > p3 , p2
> > p4 , p7
> > p5 , p4
> > p6 , p6
> > p7 , p3
> > p8 , via 10K to p13
> >
> > DG211 additional comps
> > p1 via 4K7 to p5
> > p5 low side of 5V zener high side to p12
> > p12 via SM 10K to p13
> >
> > I've left the 2 unused 211 controls unterminated, as in pv cct, just in
> > case circuit critical but probably should be tied to DC
> >
> >
>

With a SMD 211 I suppose it would be possible to make a direct plug-in pin
for pin space for space version. Then those unobtanium f dividers for old
synths etc

Today, hopefully replacing a cleaned out rotary "encoder" for a Yamaha amp
today and be able to reliably up/down select inputs again. But got me
thinking if you had to make one of these as a replacement, it would be quite
possible. Indented 10 or 12 position rotary but offs in the detent
posistions and off-radius pairs of contacts so outer contacts make
momentarilly before the inner pad between each dedent, clockwise and
opposite for acw

==============================================================================
TOPIC: 11/9 THE BIG LIE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/1033a41d21ec18d4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 4:43 am
From: Bob_Villa

On Sep 17, 8:08 am, Who_me? <inva...@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 17/09/2011 10:24 PM, bv wrote:
>
> > BOOKS: REVIEWS& VIEWS
> > 11/9
> > THE BIG LIE
>
> Yep, the book is well named. It is a big lie - the book that is.

If you saw the collapse...you KNOW there was not an explosion at the
base of the buildings.
"The French they are a funny race...they fight with their feet...and
f*ck with their face!"

==============================================================================
TOPIC: TOP 15 HOT BOLLYWOOD KISSES
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/7255bda9b0db817a?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 9:08 am
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==============================================================================
TOPIC: Electromagnetic spectrum – illusion and absurdity
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/d90219824a5fe1f4?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 9:38 am
From: sorin

Electromagnetic spectrum – illusion and absurdity

Classical electrodynamics is build up on a postulate of
electromagnetic waves emission by accelerated charges. This postulate
can be ruled out with simple experiment performed home.
A simple cut off experiment can show that a beam of electrons
accelerated in a cathode tube do not emit any electromagnetic waves
during acceleration. Of course we do not take into consideration the
spot produced during beam contact with phosphorescent layer of screen.
In a second cut off experiment, in case of a magnetron, if static
magnetic field is removed and electrons are accelerated between
cathode and anode, no microwaves are ever produced. On the other hand
if we keep the electric field and magnetic field, but resonant
cavities are filled in, we have two situations. Up to a certain value
of magnetic field, the electron trajectories are curved but they
manage to arrive on anode and no electromagnetic waves are produced.
If the magnetic field overpasses a certain value, the electron
trajectory is so curved that they fall back on the cathode. In this
case there is an emission of electromagnetic waves on a broad spectrum
in radio and microwave domain.
The resonant cavities importance is analyzed and it is found that they
insure the emission on a short range of frequencies, depending on
their characteristics.
In fact it can be formulated a new paradox of modern electrodynamics:
emission of electromagnetic wave is the best when Maxwell equations
are ruled out. This paradox is always respected in case of a microwave
oven: the emission in microwave is maxim when electric current is
quite zero and electrons fall back on the cathode.
In a third cut off experiment the working principle of NMR is analyzed
and it is found that this demolish the foundation of both quantum
theory and classical electromagnetism.
In proposed theory the actual electromagnetic domain is split up in
three distinct categories: electric currents, electromagnetic waves
(radio, microwave and new terahertz waves) and photons (IR,VIS, UV,
etc) domain.
Further, the conditions in which matter emits
electromagnetic waves or photons are analyzed.
The link:
http://www.elkadot.com/ro/magneticitate/electromagnetic1.htm

The second part of this material will be posted as soon it will be
finished.

Best regards,
Sorin Cosofret

==============================================================================
TOPIC: Kill-o-watt meter used on computer UPS - bad readings?
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/01a9482b8c5ce589?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 5:41 pm
From: "Bob F"

I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and plugged it
into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was restored,
the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the computer, which
is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo processor) uses.

Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?

== 2 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 6:07 pm
From: dplatt@radagast.org (Dave Platt)

In article <j58nff$bjn$1@dont-email.me>, Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:

>I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and plugged it
>into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was restored,
>the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the computer, which
>is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo processor) uses.
>
>Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?

What does the meter read, if you connect the computer to it directly,
and entirely bypass the UPS?

Most of these consumer-grade "UPS" systems are *not*. That is, they
aren't "uninterruptable" - they are "standby power supply" devices.
During normal operation, when the AC mains are up normally, they
actually connect the load (PC) directly to the mains... their own
output circuitry is switched off. All they have running, internally,
is monitoring circuitry, and a trickle-charger for the battery. The
"UPS" only disconnects the load from the mains, turns on its inverter,
and begins generating AC power to feed to the load.

So, if the Belkin isn't beeping, it's probably just routing the AC
mains power through to the PC, and you'd find the meter reading almost
the same as if you plugged the PC directly into the meter...

... and this might not be a terribly accurate figure. My recollection
is that some of these "power consumption meters" don't do a very
accurate job of measuring power usage being drawn in pulses (i.e. by
a non-resistive load). Your computer's power supply may be presenting
a load that the Kill-a-watt is having trouble analyzing.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

== 3 of 3 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 6:11 pm
From: Sylvia Else

On 20/09/2011 10:41 AM, Bob F wrote:
> I just unplugged the Belkin 1200 VA UPS powering my computer, and plugged it
> into my Kill-o-watt meter. After the UPS quit beeping after power was restored,
> the meter shows 7-11 watts being consumed by the UPS feeding the computer, which
> is way less than the computer (quad core core-duo processor) uses.
>
> Does the killowatt have a problem reading accurately with UPS units?

The reading seems strange (typically one would expect it to show a
higher than true figure), but cheap power meters often have difficulty
with anything other than appliances that behave like resistive loads.
Neither the UPS itself nor the PC is likely to do so.

Sylvia.

==============================================================================
TOPIC: CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.electronics.repair/t/4b33f31f667954a0?hl=en
==============================================================================

== 1 of 1 ==
Date: Mon, Sep 19 2011 6:00 pm
From: Sylvia Else

Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a
view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach
full brightness quickly?

Sylvia.

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