| jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 20 11:44AM -0700 ."I'd like to know how the EPA found out about this hack " Good question. I can understand how an individual could, for example "how come my car runs like shit right after testing" and this happening to everyone who owns that model. Then it gets around on the internet, the rest is history. Reverse engineering by watchdogs, or possibly reverse engineering efforts by a rival car company. But there is another issue. You know EGR does not turn a sportscar into a Pinto necessarily. Long time ago we used to plug up the PCV on cars because "It is losing vacuum with that thing". Yeah, not enough to even notice, and plus PCV makes your oil last longer. It also eliminates the crankcase smell. The EGR system actually makes cheap gas burn better. The system basically reduces the O2 content of the mixture which slows down the burning. this is what the additives in premium gas do. This allows for higher compression ratios and more advanced ignition timing. With premium (higher octane) gasoline you actually get a little bit more power. In the old days we could set up our cars for premium, and you tell your olady "Don't put regular in my car !". Now the engine is tuned to the gas dynamically. The ECM literally advances the timing until the knock sensor reports a knock, and it is right there, you never hear it. With cheaper gas it will retard the timing. If you disconnect the EGR in an engine on a modern ECM it will sense a knock and retard the timing to the point where you are not getting much of a bost - if any. However on the manufacturing level you can change the program in the ECM to tolerate more knock, especially at 2,500 RPMs and heavy load full throttle. If that is the engine condition right now, WolksVagon can be pretty sure the driver it not going to object to a little ignition "ping". The old days were great. We went to the car lot, said "Gimme the keys to that Olds over there" and they did not aask for a license or anything, you took it for a ride with the dealer plate and put it on the freeway and see how passing gear works, see i it peels rubber, see if it overheats. Then you find out whether it has brakes or not. Now, you get a carfax on it, look up the previous owner on the county register to see how many times they have been sued or arrested, have someone run the codes to make sure it hasn't been reset. Use a DOT approved tread depth gauge... Sickening. They used to sell cars touting their performance, now they tout the internet access and cupholders. and some of them run Windows with the touch screen. Look Man, I want a spedometer, oil pressure, engine temperature and amps or voltage gauges. Matter of fact, keep your damn radio, I'll go to Crutchfield. Fuck all that. But you simply cannot buy that, you have to buy what they got. Caveat emptor. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:03PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 00:18:01 -0400, "Steve W." <csr684@NOTyahoo.com> wrote: >> And "selective enforcement" can be, and is, applied to private >> passenger vehicles as well - at least here in Ontario. >It is in NY as well. Why people would not remove the "bypoass boxes" to return the vehicle to stock before submitting for E-Test is beyond me - - - . Same with "power tuners". They have the capability of storing more than one tune - |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 20 12:08PM -0700 >MUST oscillate around stoich - go rich, then lean, then rich) Air >needed to be added in order for the oxidizing catalist to function >effectively. " Wow, even I wasn't aware of that. I was aware that actually a car can be made to run better without a cat, to the point where the emissions would be about the same, that something has to keep that cat lit, but not why they did that. I thought it was just like a servo hunting and or some reason they couldn't get rid of it. But i have been out of the loop for some years now. The bottom line is the only way to test a cat is by O2 content. They cnnot check by emissions because in a properly running car, and I mean REALLY properly, there are no emissions to convert. The cat does not help cars the really run right, it helps cars with cumulative inaccuracies in the build. Normal production tolerances do not have to be as tight. Hell, they don't even lap the valves in anymore. That'll save you a few manhours on something with 32 valves eh ? I still maintain that no regulation has passed without the approval of the automakers. They have lobbyists. The regs give them an excuse for highway robbery. Literally. It also makes starting a new car company much harder, thus keeping down competition. No more Tuckers ! |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:08PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 03:46:05 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com> wrote: >(For the 1995 it used the dynamometer and tailpipe stick) I think when >I turn 70, if I don't drive too much, I won't have to be tested. Or >my car. Officially, all cars 1996 and newer must be OBD2 compliant, but most jurisdictions using OBD2 for E-Testing only start at 1997 models because some 1996 models were not fully compliant. Only a very few 1995 vehicles had OBD2 capability as 1995 was "pre-standard" |
| jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 20 12:11PM -0700 >"the archaic Kettering ignition,..." There's a word I haven't heard in a long time. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:32PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:56:20 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote: >You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years). >That shop would be shut down by the state if it was found that they were >passing cars without checking for pending codes. In ontario the testers are directly connected to a central computer and it is virtually impossible to go from stem 1 to step 3 without completing step 2 first. A number of years back, some crooks were running a "good" vehicle through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty quick. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:35PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 08:00:37 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote: >The "catalytic converter test pipe" was popular for a while. But as you >said, in most cases, all the tampering with emissions controls did not >have any effect on mileage and/or power. Didn't have any significant positive effect on mileage and or power. And the "test pipe" stopped being an option in 1996 with OBD2 testing pre and post cat O2 - unless you bought an O2 fake-out device that generated a fake O2 signal (actually, 2 signals ----)- which caused other problems (genrally a lot poorer fuel mileage and not much power improvement, if any) |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 03:37PM -0400 >>You can't pass with more than two pending codes (one on some years). >They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been >logged. Except "pending"codes don't turn on the CEL, and the CEL does not indicate if monitors have been "set" |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 20 08:20PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 12:12:31 -0400, Scott Dorsey wrote: > They look for the light on the dashboard that indicates codes have been > logged. That. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 20 08:21PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 07:54:12 -0700, sms wrote: > You said it yourself. You can't pass emissions with pending codes. They > have to run a scan to check this. You have a good point. I need to recheck my facts. |
| Mitch Kaufmann <mitch284@outlook.com>: Sep 20 04:29PM -0400 On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote: > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/ The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges. |
| Sofa Slug <sofaslug@invalid.invalid>: Sep 20 02:03PM -0700 On 9/20/2015 1:29 PM, Mitch Kaufmann wrote: >> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? > http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/ > The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges. According to the LA Times: "Rather than meet the standards, the EPA says VW sneaked in the defeat device software to detect when the car is hooked up to a dynamometer, a machine that measures emissions. When emissions are being measured, the defeat device tells the car to operate at "dyno calibration," or full emission control levels, to meet the standards." "At all other times, however, the software sets the engine to run on "road calibration," allowing the excessive emissions. How can the program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving the car, and thus it is likely being tested." |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 20 03:49PM -0700 On 9/20/2015 9:12 AM, Scott Dorsey wrote: > In some places they always use the scanner to make sure, for instance, > that the ECU wasn't reset immdiately before taking the car in for > inspection. In some places they do not. Well in California they definitely check via the OBD-II port. I had replaced a battery and there were no dashboard lights indicating anything. The first thing they did was to do a scan for codes. The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information. |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 20 03:57PM -0700 > through the test 5 or 6 times, entering the Vin for one that would not > pass. They made changes to the system that prevented that pretty > quick. In California, one "smog check factory" in L.A. got caught because the state checked registered addresses of the vehicles and wondered why so many vehicles were being smogged at this one particular shop when their registered address was so far away. Few people will drive 25 miles in L.A. to get a smog check at a particular shop. My brother-in-law regularly had inspectors come into his shop with test vehicles to be smogged. They would reveal who they were after the test. He did really well. He got one demerit for not telling the "customer" that they had the option of getting the vehicle repaired at his shop or any shop, even though he did ask if they wanted it to be repaired. But he still passed the inspection. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Sep 20 07:57PM -0400 On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote: >The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of >manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the >pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information. Actually it is not pending codes that are the issue. It is the readiness monitors.. Can't remember how many readiness monitors there are - but there's a catalyst monitor, a O2 sensor monitor, and EGR monitors, and O2sensor heater and cat heater monitor on some vehicles. These are the intermittent monitors that need to be "set" . Setting the monitor just means they have been through one or more test sequences and have aquired valid data.. The rest of the monitors are contimuous monitors - misfire, component, and fuel system, nonitors. The evap monitor, for instance, is only "valid" in a fixed temperature range, and with the tank between something like 1/4 and 3/4 full (not 100% sure of the actual numbrs). If you reset the codes or replace the battery on a vehicle with the tank full or almost empty you can NOT set the readiness monitor for the evap system - so virtually ALL OBD2 based emission test facilities will allow at least one monitor to be un-set or not ready. If you know what code is coming up, and want to "cheat" the system, if you can avoid setting that particular monitor, while setting all the others, you can sometimes get a vehicle to pass. You need to understand the drive cycle and what can cause the monitor you want dissabled to fail to set. (and it needs to be an intermittent or non-continuous monitor. The usual culprits are Cat, evap, or EGR. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:44PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 15:49:16 -0700, sms wrote: > The number of pending codes that is allowable varies by year of > manufacture. A good shop will tell you the drive sequence to clear the > pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information. It's usually documented as the FTP. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:46PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 16:29:30 -0400, Mitch Kaufmann wrote: >> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? > http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/09/19/consumer-reports-volkswagen/72436098/ > The software code allows all of the car's emissions systems to work when the cars are taken in for clean-air testing. But as soon as the emissions tests are complete, the system reverts to spewing pollutants. The cars emitted nitrogen oxide at a level of up to 40 times the standard level, the EPA alleges. That answers what. But it doesn't answer HOW. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:47PM On Sun, 20 Sep 2015 14:03:08 -0700, Sofa Slug wrote: > program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering > wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving > the car, and thus it is likely being tested." Finally! Someone who both understood the question, and who posited an answer! Of all the posters, you're the ONLY one who understood the question! |
| Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen <vchenghcv102@hotmail.com.hk>: Sep 21 12:51PM > VW sneaked in the defeat > device software to detect when the car is hooked up to a dynamometer What I'm surprised at is that each state can have a *different* procedure. In California, they use the dyno, but in many less technical states, they still use the dumb procedures. This explains how they noticed there was testing going on. http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/ But that only works for the intelligent states. How did they also fool the low-tech states like NJ, Kentucky & Kansas? |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 21 12:57PM On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000, Ewald Böhm wrote: > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? The best answer to the question seems to be here, as noted by Sofa Slug: http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/ http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html "How can the program tell the difference? By noting the position of the steering wheel, variations in speed and other data that suggest no one is driving the car, and thus it is likely being tested." Apparently VW lied at first, & apparently they can no longer sell the cars: "The cheating came to light when the California Air Resources Board and the EPA pressed Volkswagen for an explanation for disparities found between lab tests and road tests of its vehicle emissions. The agencies didn't find the technical reasons offered by VW to be convincing and said they would not issue certificates allowing 2016 models to be sold until the automaker offered an adequate explanation. "Only then did VW admit it had designed and installed a defeat device in these vehicles," the EPA said. VW said it was cooperating with the investigation but otherwise had no comment." It's interesting that VW didn't fess up until they were forced to. |
| "Dean Hoffman" <dh0496@windstream.net>: Sep 21 08:34AM -0500 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 07:57:34 -0500, Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca> wrote: > said. VW said it was cooperating with the investigation but otherwise > had no comment." > It's interesting that VW didn't fess up until they were forced to. That's pretty much human nature going back to the Garden of Eden. The next trick is to blame someone else. A TV show from long ago had comedian Flip Wilson on. His line was "The devil made me do it". -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ |
| Vincent Cheng Hoi Chuen <vchenghcv102@hotmail.com.hk>: Sep 21 02:10PM trader_4 <trader4@optonline.net> wrote in > Just the facts. OK. Just the facts Danno: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/smogcheck/march09/transitioning_to_obd_only_im.pdf |
| sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 21 07:28AM -0700 >> pending codes for each model. A bad shop won't even know this information. > Actually it is not pending codes that are the issue. It is the > readiness monitors.. Yes, sorry, that's what I was referring to. Can't remember how many readiness monitors there > understand the drive cycle and what can cause the monitor you want > dissabled to fail to set. (and it needs to be an intermittent or > non-continuous monitor. The usual culprits are Cat, evap, or EGR. By the way, there's an excellent Android app for OBD-II called Torque Pro. The app is $4.95, and a Bluetooth ELM327 OBD-II adapter is less than $10 (I am using this one <http://www.dx.com/p/super-mini-elm327-bluetooth-odb2-v1-5-car-diagnostic-interface-tool-blue-142679>). The app does a lot more than just read or clear codes. It will display electronic gauges based on the sensor readings (especially useful for vehicles without temperature gauges or tachoometers). You can set alarms for things like over-temperature. It's also a very accurate speedometer (via the GPS), and it'll measure things like 0-60. <https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.prowl.torque&hl=en> There's no iOS version because Apple forgot to include the necessary Bluetooth profile (SPP) in its devices. There are similar apps for iOS but not nearly as good. This one is one of them <https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/engine-link-obd-ii-vehicle/id591557194?mt=8> but you need to get a Wi-Fi ELM327 dongle, not a Bluetooth one. I like having a 7" tablet with TorquePro and CoPilot (GPS). I made a holder for the tablet using one of the Panavise mounting brackets <http://www.panavise.com/index.html?pageID=1&id1=30&startat=1&--woSECTIONSdatarq=30&--SECTIONSword=ww>. Just be sure the tablet has a GPS chip, since very low-end Android tablets don't have one, nor do Wi-Fi only iPads. You can buy a decent Asus 7" tablet with a GPS for $50 <http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=9561735> just use a virtual credit card with a $1 limit and a one month expiration date when you sign up with McAffee (required to get the rebate). Intel, which owns McAffee, is trying to promote devices with their processor inside, hence the large rebate. |
| You received this digest because you're subscribed to updates for this group. You can change your settings on the group membership page. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it send an email to sci.electronics.repair+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. |
No Response to "Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 23 updates in 1 topic"
Post a Comment