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"Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com>: Sep 21 09:43AM -0700 > get the new firmware then they get to sue. If not then they would get > no compensation because they have not suffered a loss. > ERS   No loss other than being unable to license their cars?

etpm@whidbey.com: Sep 21 02:12PM -0700 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 09:43:43 -0700, "Bob F" <bobnospam@gmail.com> wrote:   >> no compensation because they have not suffered a loss. >> ERS   >No loss other than being unable to license their cars?   If they cannot license their cars without a firmware update then they have suffered a loss and should of course be able to sue or otherwise be remunerated. I was thinking about the car owners who live in an area where cars are not smog checked. For example, I live in Island County which is about 30 Miles from Seattle which is in King County. This means I don't have to get my vehicles smog checked whereas King County residents do. I don't know how CA does smog checks but I suspect everyone who lives there has to get one. I can see that I should have thought of that before I posted my comments. I just heard on the news that there are about 450,000 vehicles in the USA that have the dishonest firmware and that the EPA can fine VW $37,500 for each car. I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long. All sorts of folks, from the upper management to the software writers, had to know about and agree to actively participate in the fraud. I can see how some would do so because of greed. And others may have been afraid of losing their jobs. But I would think that many would refuse to commit fraud and that some of them would spill the beans. I guess I'm naive. Eric

Lucia Gallo <LuciaGallo@is.invalid>: Sep 21 05:06PM -0700 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:57:34 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:     > The best answer to the question seems to be here, as noted by Sofa Slug:   > http://www.rocketnews.com/2015/09/did-volkswagen-cheat/ > http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-vw-20150919-story.html   Staying on topic, this article says the cheat only worked when there was a DYNO involved! http://www.chron.com/business/energy/article/For-7-years-VW-software-thwarted-pollution-6520088.php   Here are the contiguous quotes: (begin quote) VW used secret software — an algorithm that detects when cars are being tested on treadmill-like devices called dynamometers, and stealthily switches the engines to a cleaner mode.   Because *smog tests are almost always done on dynamometers*, VW got away with the scheme for seven years, until the "clean transportation" advocates went to West Virginia University, which tests emissions using equipment that fits in car trunks. (end quote)

Alina Popescu <Popescu345@Napolact.spam.ro>: Sep 21 05:27PM -0700 > They got their buddies selling dynos to be rich.   Why is it called a dyno if it's spelled dynamometer? Why not call it a dyna?

"Danny D." <dannyd@ahr.invalid>: Sep 21 05:30PM -0700 > jurisdictions using OBD2 for E-Testing only start at 1997 models > because some 1996 models were not fully compliant. Only a very few > 1995 vehicles had OBD2 capability as 1995 was "pre-standard"   This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud. I don't drive a diesel.   What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?

"Danny D." <dannyd@ahr.invalid>: Sep 21 05:34PM -0700 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 17:30:19 -0700, Danny D. wrote:   > This article says the whole TDI Clean Diesel campaign is a fraud. > I don't drive a diesel.   > What was the "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?   Oopops. Forgot to include the url: http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a17430/ezra-dyer-volkswagen-diesel-controversy/   What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway? And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?   How does this UREA injection work?

"Dean Hoffman" <dh0496@windstream.net>: Sep 21 08:13PM -0500 > Oopops. Forgot to include the url: > http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a17430/ezra-dyer-volkswagen-diesel-controversy/   > What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway?   Apparently a way to avoid the urea injection everyone else used to get emissions down to the legal limit.   > And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?   Both are supposedly ways to meet emissions standards. One works. The other is Wizard of Oz engineering apparently.       > How does this UREA injection work? A youtube explanation: http://preview.tinyurl.com/pumvto8 I didn't watch it and ain't qualified to say if it's correct.   Have you noticed signs at truck stops saying "DEF Sold In All Lanes"? That's diesel exhaust fluid or urea.       -- Using Opera's mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/

Dan Espen <despen@verizon.net>: Sep 21 10:24PM -0400 > What was this "TDI Clean Diesel" campaign anyway? > And, what does that have to do with "urea" injection?   > How does this UREA injection work?   It's in the article:   All the other carmakers control diesel emissions by spraying a urea solution into the exhaust stream, where a catalyst converts it to ammonia. The ammonia breaks down NOx into nitrogen and water.   -- Dan Espen

"Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net>: Sep 21 09:07PM -0700 > went to West Virginia University, which tests emissions using equipment > that fits in car trunks. > (end quote)   I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are stationary. That seems plausible to me.

Sam Wilhelm <samwilhelm@example.com>: Sep 21 09:44PM -0700 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:07:31 -0700, Jack Myers wrote:   > I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the > fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are > stationary. That seems plausible to me.   They didn't explicity mention that, but this article has a section named How did this alleged cheat work exactly? http://jalopnik.com/your-guide-to-dieselgate-volkswagens-diesel-cheating-c-1731857018

Jack Black <Jack-Black@example.com>: Sep 21 09:58PM -0700 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 21:44:12 -0700, Sam Wilhelm wrote:   > How did this alleged cheat work exactly?   http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100125_vw-diesel-emissions-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions/page-2 (4) What exactly did VW do?   Volkswagen has admitted that it equipped the control software for its 2.0-liter TDI diesel vehicles with a "defeat device" that detected when the car was undergoing emissions testing and significantly changed the operations of its powertrain to reduce emissions during the tests.   That detection was likely based on a combination of sensor data from the car, which might include steering angle (since cars on dynamometer tests don't make turns), front-wheel versus rear-wheel rotation speed, and a variety of other factors.   It appears that a combination of the factors above plus extremely gentle acceleration and braking might alert the car that it wasn't on the road but being tested in a lab.

Jack Black <Jack-Black@example.com>: Sep 21 10:00PM -0700 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 12:46:48 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:   > But it doesn't answer HOW.   http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1100125_vw-diesel-emissions-recall-what-you-need-to-know-in-10-questions/page-2   Based on discussions with knowledgeable sources, we surmise that once an emissions test was detected, VW got the affected TDI engines to meet the Tier 2, Bin 5 NOx limits by reducing the fuel flow rate.   This would reduce performance, but most likely not to the point where the car couldn't complete the emission cycles.   Lowering fuel flow would also reduce combustion temperatures and/or the duration of high-temperature operation enough to keep NOx emissions barely within EPA limits.   If the car detected that it was no longer in "testing mode" but had returned to "driving mode," it would restore fuel flow to the regular level--which would send NOx emissions soaring.

Jack Black <Jack-Black@example.com>: Sep 21 10:05PM -0700 On Sat, 19 Sep 2015 00:19:10 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm wrote:   > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?   http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf

Jack Black <Jack-Black@example.com>: Sep 21 10:15PM -0700 On Mon, 21 Sep 2015 22:05:54 -0700, Jack Black wrote:   >> My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions?   > http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/cert/documents/vw-nov-caa-09-18-15.pdf   VW manufactured and installed software in the electronic control module (ECM) of these vehicles that sensed when the behicle was being tested for compliance with EPA emission standards. For ease of reference, the EPA is calling this the "switch".   The "switch" senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including teh position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine's operation, and barometric pressure.   These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure used for emission testing for EPA certification purposes. During EPA emission testing, the vehicle's ECM ran software which produced compliant emission results under and ECM calibration chart that VW referred to as the "dyno calibration".

jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 22 02:08AM -0700 >" I find it amazing that so many people would participate in such a dishonest act, and that it could remain secret for so long."   Sorry. Seems like you are a good person and projecting, trying to think everyone else is good.   That ain't how it is. Companies have a roomful of lawyers and accountant who do nothing but figure out odds on how much they can break the law or endanger people with a cheap design, versus how much it will cost them if they get caught, or have lawsuits. It is like playing poker. If you now ht you're doing, it is all a matter of real odds versus pot odds. that is how they think. That is how they stay on the board of directors, because they live the company on the edge. And if they don't they are voted out.

sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>: Sep 22 05:56AM -0700 On 9/21/2015 9:07 PM, Jack Myers wrote:   <snip>   > I have seen a suggestion that the onboard computer takes note of the > fact that the rear wheels are rotating and the front wheels are > stationary. That seems plausible to me.   Well the opposite for most or all VWs, but that makes sense.

"THE COLONEL, Ph.D" <ima_phd_two@hotartrs.edu>: Sep 22 06:11AM -0700 I think a potato stuffed up the exhaust pipe would do just as much at half the cost.

"Mayayana" <mayayana@invalid.nospam>: Sep 22 09:37AM -0400 | > My question is HOW did the car *know* it was being *tested* for emissions? |   I'm more curious about how the EPA didn't figure it out earlier. Reports say the EPA saw a discrepancy between testing and on-road results. But they've been haggling with VW all this time and somehow never thought to look at the software. Is the software accessible to EPA? Do they have developers who could understand it?   How the test is faked is just a technical issue. How the EPA didn't figure it out seems to be the important issue. They only found out because they threatened to hold up sales and at that point the VW execs admitted what they were doing. (Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they don't have to.)   ... Then of course there's the question that begs to be asked: How could all of those executives, in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal environmentalists, have possibly decided it was a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?   There should be arrests. Either way, it's likely to be a serious, perhaps fatal, blow to the company. If it were Chevy I'm sure rednecks would come out of the woodwork to support "the company that denies global warming". But VW customers are almost a cult following, and mostly liberal.

Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid>: Sep 22 01:43PM > There should be arrests.   Should there have been arrests of EPA miscreants (or the environmentalists that petitioned them to do so) for the hatchet job they did on DDT? This resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other countries following our lead:   http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259   -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roger Blake (Change "invalid" to "com" for email. Google Groups killfiled.)   NSA sedition and treason -- http://www.DeathToNSAthugs.com -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey): Sep 22 10:07AM -0400 >at the software. Is the software accessible to >EPA? Do they have developers who could >understand it?   No. The software is a black box both to vehicle owners and the EPA. Not only that, but under the DMCA it would be illegal for vehicle owners OR the EPA to attempt reverse-engineering it from the object load.   >(Have they disclosed everything? Surely if there's >more dirty dealing they're not going to tell if they >don't have to.)   Gaming the system is a longstanding tradition among car manufacturers and I am _sure_ that if the source code were made public that all manner of interesting games would be found.   >in a company whose clientelle tend to be liberal >environmentalists, have possibly decided it was >a good idea to be so dishonest and shortsighted?   THAT is the best question of all, yes. But that is a question that needs to be asked by stockholders, and I have a suspicion that the next annual meeting at Volkswagen will be interesting.   >of the woodwork to support "the company that denies >global warming". But VW customers are almost a >cult following, and mostly liberal.   Arrests will do nothing. What has to happen is that vehicle control code needs to be documented and available to the vehicle owner and to the government inspectors. Yes, I know this makes it easier for technology to be stolen in places where patent and trademark law is unenforced (such as China, where the car industry is growing by leaps and bounds and trying to learn as much as possible from Western and Japanese manufacturers by any means possible). But, it's necessary.   If you want to see something REALLY evil, take a look at John Deere's take on their proprietary control systems. THERE are some people who could use arresting. --scott   -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

kludge@panix.com (Scott Dorsey): Sep 22 10:13AM -0400 >resulted in millions of third-world deaths from malaria due to other >countries following our lead:   > http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/viewSubCategory.asp?id=1259   This article is not exactly accurate.   In the fifties, DDT was amazing, it worked great. We put it between our sheets. You could spray it in the air and see insects dropping out right and left.   But... by the seventies, mosquitoes (at least in Hawaii where I lived) had pretty much become immune to the stuff. Enormous, absolutely enormous amounts were necessary to kill insects. This is why there were environmental effects. My father had a gadget that would drop a mix of diesel and DDT into the muffler of the lawnmower and the smoke would kill mosquitoes, but by the seventies it wasn't killing them any more, even with a couple pounds of the stuff being burned.   Give it another forty years or so and we might be able to start using DDT in a small way again. But it was the massive overuse and abuse of DDT that got us to the point where it was banned, not some crazy left-wind conspiracy.   And yes, it WAS one of the big weapons in the fight against malaria, and it was a crime to lose that weapon. But it wasn't politicians that lost it. --scott     -- "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

Winston_Smith <invalid@butterfly.net>: Sep 22 06:45AM Anyone else seeing tremendous WISP slowdowns on UBNT 5.5.10 (versus 5.5.6)?   We have a neighborhood setup in the Santa Cruz mountains, where we have been debugging a radio slowdown problem for weeks.   We replaced the router, the cables, the radio, etc., and just today, we figured out, almost by accident, that simply updating the Ubiquiti firmware from 5.5.10 to 5.6.2 (which we did a while ago), was what seems to have caused the appreciable bandwidth slowdown.   Has anyone else out there seen a huge slowdown in speeds when you "updated" your Ubuquiti firmware from 5.5.10 to 5.6.2?   Any idea why?

Tim Schwartz <tim@bristolnj.com>: Sep 21 03:41PM -0400 On 9/20/2015 12:01 AM, jadney wrote:   > I'm comfortable with rather ordinary grease for the rotating shaft bearings, etc, but the contacts are different material and can't afford the insulation between contacts to be compromised.   > I'm pretty sure Tek used to lube these with something in the old days, when you shipped scopes back to them for cleaning and recal. Yeah, I know, that was a LONG time ago. I think Tek even had lube kits that you could buy that contained suitable lubricants for different areas.   > This is a general question, not related only to Tek scopes.   I've used both Caig Labs Deoxit D5, and Mobil 1 5W30 synthetic oil. If the switch is really clean, or if I've cleaned a silver plated switch with cotton swabs and alcohol they I'll just use the oil. The 5W30 is not a specifically 'better' weight, just the one I have on hand. (I do not like things like WD40 on switches.) I've got switches I've cleaned 10+ years ago that are still fine.   Note: If AC power is on the wafer, then I'd suggest dry contacts.   Regards, Tim Bristol Electronics

whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>: Sep 21 10:17PM -0700 On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 9:01:41 PM UTC-7, jadney wrote: > This question has bothered me for a long time:   > What, if any, lubrication is appropriate for wafer switch contacts?   No lubricant- the wiping action of the switch is supposed to displace material and that applies to most 'lubricant' compounds. Any lubricant that took the pressure and retained a film, would likely impede the electrical contact.   There IS a use for Cramolin 'DeOxit', or Tweak, or Stabilant-22 or other contact enhancers, though, but it isn't for their lubricant properties. It has nothing to do, either, with oxidation. It increases the contact footprint by conducting across very narrow gaps.   The switch might have such a contact enhancer applied at the factory; you'd never know it by inspection, unless the pink and blue stains I sometimes see are indicators of some sort (for factory inspection purposes).

jadney <jadney@vwtype3.org>: Sep 21 08:40PM -0700 > Sort of a long story, but here goes: We have had 3 LCD TV's with the same issue. It is intermittent, but every day, typically multiple times a day the TV will completely power off.   Probably irrelevant, but some electronics have built in timers to turn themselves off after a preset amount of time if there is no interaction from the user. These can often be set to 2 hours, 4 hours, or never, etc. Check the setup options. It might just be "normal" operation.

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