| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 08 10:17AM -0700 On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 16:35:02 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm >From what Jeff said, all I can tell is (is this correct?): Nope. It should be: 802.11 a ==> 5GHz only 802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only 802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only 802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed 802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only >Basically, if it has an "a" in the description, then it's 5GHz. >Otherwise, it's 2.4GHz. Yes, but the "a" and "ac" are a concidence. The IEEE 802.11 committee(s) ran out of letters when they hit "z", so the started using two letter suffixes as in "as", "ab", "ac", etc. There fact that "a" and "ac" are both "5GHz only" is purely coincidental and should not be relied upon to determine if something operates on 5GHz. As I mentioned before, if it does "ac", it should be able to do "a". Nobody makes a 5GHz only radio these days, so if it does 5GHz in any form, it should also be able to do 2.4GHz. However, these are logical deduction and assumptions which should not be relied upon. To be sure, you need to pry the Intel product number out of HP and lookup the specs on the Intel web site, which should have a better description of the products capabilities. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 05:45PM On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 07:45:22 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote: > I am out of this thread. You are impossible. > When e say it is dual band it is. If you can't believe why don't you ask > HP? So much hassle buying a laptop. You have absolutely no idea what you're suggesting. Here is the transcript! Read it and then suggest I contact HP. This is an automated email sent from the HP Home & Home Office Store Server. The following information is a log of your session. Please save the log for your records. Your session ID for this incident is 1938843. Time Details 09/06/2015 08:15:30PM System: "Welcome to hp.com sales serving the United States. Your chat transcript will be emailed to the email address that you input when registered shortly after the chat is completed." 09/06/2015 08:15:32PM System: "If you are looking for HP product support, service, parts or non-US help, please visit: http://www8.hp.com/ us/en/contact-hp/contact.html" 09/06/2015 08:15:34PM System: "If you still need US sales or ordering assistance, please stay in queue. Our chat sales representative will be with you shortly." 09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Session Started with Agent (Paige M) 09/06/2015 08:15:59PM Ewald Bohm: "Does the HP 15z laptop come with dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz? http://www.costco.com/HP-15z- Laptop-|-AMD-E1-|-Windows-10.product.100222779.html" 09/06/2015 08:16:14PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for contacting the hp.com Sales Center and welcome to our Labor Day Sale. My name is Paige. I've read your question and am ready to assist you." 09/06/2015 08:16:59PM Agent (Paige M): "I can see you need to know if the HP 15z laptop come with dual band WiFi, both 5Ghz and 2.4GHz. I'd be glad to check on this for you." 09/06/2015 08:17:00PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige M." 09/06/2015 08:17:45PM Ewald Bohm: "I just want to know if the HP 15z laptop has a WiFi card that is dual band (i.e., it has both 2.4Ghz and 5GHz) or not. The idiotic specification sheet on the HP web site doesn't say!" 09/06/2015 08:18:04PM Ewald Bohm: "This is the spec sheet:" 09/06/2015 08:18:05PM Ewald Bohm: "http://store.hp.com/us/en/ ConfigureView? storeId=10151&catalogId=10051&langId=-1&catEntryId=998656&quantity=1&color=Natural +silver" 09/06/2015 08:18:42PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for the link, let me go and check it." 09/06/2015 08:20:08PM Ewald Bohm: "That spec sheet lists three options for WiFi cards, but not one mentions the band! 802.11b/g/n WLAN [1x1] Included in price 802.11b/g/n WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$10.00 Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] +$30.00" 09/06/2015 08:21:45PM Agent (Paige M): "Thank you for your patience." 09/06/2015 08:23:06PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige, Also, is there tax and shipping to NJ?" 09/06/2015 08:23:59PM Agent (Paige M): "The 802.11b/g/n WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] is 5GHz. The Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [1x1] is at 433 Mbps stream at 3GHz." 09/06/2015 08:24:38PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive there is tax in the unit but not in the shipping." 09/06/2015 08:25:37PM Agent (Paige M): "I am not entirely sure though, it is best to contact our Product Expert to have more details about your concern." 09/06/2015 08:25:49PM Agent (Paige M): "I've checked all of my resources and I'm still unable to validate this." 09/06/2015 08:25:54PM Agent (Paige M): "Please call 866.221.4553? An HP expert will be able to assist you and answer any remaining questions that you have. Their hours of operation are: 7:00 AM - 10:00 PM Mountain, Monday-Friday and Saturday & Sunday from 8AM – 10PM MT." 09/06/2015 08:26:21PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige, I have never seen in my life a WiFi card that was 5GHz and not ALSO 2.4 GHz; but I have seen many 2.4GHz WiFi cards that were not 5GHz. I have NEVER seen in my life (I don't believe it exists) a 3GHz WiFi card. Are you sure about those specs? Th"   ey make no sense, to me, and I know this stuff pretty well. 09/06/2015 08:27:27PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige, Are the HP telephone support folks open tomorrow? (Labor Day)" 09/06/2015 08:28:40PM Agent (Paige M): "I beleive they are open but you can try calling." 09/06/2015 08:29:16PM Agent (Paige M): "We did not get any instructions if they are closed or not. But it is better to try to call still." 09/06/2015 08:29:31PM Agent (Paige M): "Is there anything else I can assist you with today?" 09/06/2015 08:30:29PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Paige This was not satisfactory. May I talk to a supervisor? The question is SIMPLE. It's actually EXTREMELY SIMPLE. It's not a difficult question. The answer you gave makes absolutely no sense. Is there someone else I can speak with? This is not a dif"   ficult question. 09/06/2015 08:32:30PM Ewald Bohm: "Are you there?" 09/06/2015 08:33:15PM Ewald Bohm: "?" 09/06/2015 08:33:31PM Agent (Vann): "Hi!" 09/06/2015 08:35:14PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann Thank you for trying to help me. I am asking a simple question. Do you need me to repeat the question?" 09/06/2015 08:36:41PM Ewald Bohm: "Is anyone there?" 09/06/2015 08:36:47PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am here." 09/06/2015 08:36:53PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the long wait." 09/06/2015 08:37:02PM Agent (Vann): "I was reading your chat session with Paige." 09/06/2015 08:40:18PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann, OK. I'll wait while you review the session so that I won't need to repeat anything. Basically, I can't believe it's this difficult to just ascertain whether the laptop has a WiFi card that handles both the 2.4GHz and the 5GHz bands. Also, since"   that simple question wasn't answered, it's hard to know if the answer I got regarding the shipping being free but that there was tax, is correct, or not. Neither of these questions is difficult for someone who handles basic (and these are EXTREMELY BASIC   questions) computer questions. 09/06/2015 08:41:03PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I see that you have questions, Ewald." 09/06/2015 08:41:05PM Ewald Bohm: "If the spec sheet simply gave the information that it should give, I wouldn't even NEED to ask these questions." 09/06/2015 08:41:47PM Ewald Bohm: "I know the broken record; and I know that you're taught to "reflect" the customer's question - but let's just get the answer please (I was a customer support manager for two decades)." 09/06/2015 08:41:54PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I understand that our website product information is very limited." 09/06/2015 08:43:31PM Agent (Vann): "The shipping charge is zero and that is for free." 09/06/2015 08:44:03PM Agent (Vann): "Sales tax will apply to the product price itself and its computation is based on the shipping zip code and state." 09/06/2015 08:45:12PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann, Thank you for confirming that the sales tax is based on where the item will be shipped and that the shipping is free. Now all we need to know is whether the three WiFi card options available for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both." 09/06/2015 08:45:30PM Agent (Vann): "Yes, I am actually checking on that." 09/06/2015 08:46:04PM Agent (Vann): "Honestly, our tools and resources are very limited to answer your question." 09/06/2015 08:46:16PM Agent (Vann): "I totally understand why the agent referred you to our product expert." 09/06/2015 08:46:25PM Agent (Vann): "However, let own this question and I will this to you." 09/06/2015 08:46:28PM Agent (Vann): "*answer." 09/06/2015 08:46:35PM Agent (Vann): "Now, can you give me 1-2 minutes of your time." 09/06/2015 08:46:41PM Agent (Vann): "I am checking on something here." 09/06/2015 08:47:43PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald," 09/06/2015 08:47:46PM Agent (Vann): "I am sorry for that." 09/06/2015 08:48:10PM Ewald Bohm: "I am here - and will wait." 09/06/2015 08:49:00PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I can tell this by the decription of the WLAN card. Everytime you see a wlan card listed as b/g/ n, it is a single band (2.4 GHz) card." 09/06/2015 08:49:58PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann" 09/06/2015 08:50:03PM Agent (Vann): "I found more information here." 09/06/2015 08:52:01PM Ewald Bohm: "oooPS. Hi VAnn, I believe you can have 5GHz on "n"but not on "g" but I can check that out. Certainly "ac" would benefit from 5GHz, but are you saying that only the "ac" card is 5GHz?" 09/06/2015 08:52:54PM Agent (Vann): "I am verifying that." 09/06/2015 08:53:17PM Agent (Vann): "I cannot confirm it yet and this is based on something that I am not sure of." 09/06/2015 08:54:33PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann Look at this web site (http://pocketnow.com/2014/01/23/5ghz-wifi). Notice that "b" and "g" are ONLY 2.4GHz - but - notice that either "n" or "ac" is also 5GHz." 09/06/2015 08:57:20PM Agent (Vann): "Thanks!" 09/06/2015 08:57:32PM Agent (Vann): "Let me check that." 09/06/2015 08:59:32PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann So, we still don't have the answer, since clearly both "n" and "ac" can do 2.4GHz and 5GHz - the only difference is that "n" can do either one at a time while "ac" does both at the same time - but that's not my question. My question is whether th"   e "n" and "ac" cards from HP for this laptop are 2.4GHz or 5GHz or both. Thanks for "owning" this issue to the conclusion - since - it's actually an easy question - for someone who has the spec to answer. In fact, I fault HP for not putting that answer on   the web site since it's a CRITICAL question to ask! 09/06/2015 09:00:18PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I see where you are coming from." 09/06/2015 09:00:53PM Agent (Vann): "I even sent a quick email to the marketing department and web content team to put a brief pertinent description of each wi-fi options." 09/06/2015 09:04:48PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann, As I had said, I was a customer-support manager for twenty years and I found only about 10% of the support team would take the time to solve long-term problems such as missing information in a web page; therefore, I do appreciate that you are in"   the top 10% for "owning" the problem, and I appreciate that. I'm still not sure though, whether the specific cards available for this laptop have "both" 2.4GHz and 5GHz bands, since we have ascertained that "n" can be either (just not at the same time), w   hile "ac" also can be either (but if it has both, it can do both at the same time). So, the FREQUENCY BAND is a critical piece of data that a person needs to figure out if their laptop will connect to the "n" or "ac" 2.4GHz or 5GHz bands. 09/06/2015 09:04:55PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, as far as what I understood in my readings here. You need a dual band that can support both 2.5 and 5 Ghz." 09/06/2015 09:05:26PM Agent (Vann): "This is what you need WLAN 802.11 ac 2x2 ." 09/06/2015 09:05:35PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann, Yes. I will ONLY BUY a dual-band card. I am just trying to figure out which card(s) that fit that laptop are dual band." 09/06/2015 09:05:50PM Ewald Bohm: "Note: It's 2.4GHz and not 2.5GHz." 09/06/2015 09:06:10PM Agent (Vann): "Sorry for the typo error." 09/06/2015 09:06:18PM Agent (Vann): "So you are saying that your router has a dual band?" 09/06/2015 09:08:41PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann, I know MANY (most) "ac" cards will be dual band. But, remember, an "ac" card can also be one or the other. So, I am just trying to CONFIRM whether the "n" and "ac" cards you offer actually make use of both bands. (I know that the "n" can make use"   of either band, and so can the "ac", with the only difference not mattering to this question that "ac" can do it simultaneously). But, "ac" can't do it simultaneously if it doesn't have both bands, and "n" cards can be of three types (1) only 2.4, (2) o   nly 5Ghz, or (3) both 2.4GHz and 5GHz. As for my router, it is dual band (both 2.4GHz and 5Ghz) and it is an AC1750. 09/06/2015 09:14:10PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi Vann The 802.11n spec allows up to 4 transmit and four receive antennas (802.11n supports up to 4x4), so, again, just knowing it's 2x2 or 4x4 does not tell me what the bands are." 09/06/2015 09:17:33PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I am sorry if I kept you waiting." 09/06/2015 09:17:40PM Ewald Bohm: "I'm here ..." 09/06/2015 09:18:06PM Agent (Vann): "This is overly complicated and it would be better you consult our product expert." 09/06/2015 09:18:23PM Agent (Vann): "As far as I know that if it has a 1x1 that is a single band which can support up to 2.4ghz/" 09/06/2015 09:19:36PM Ewald Bohm: "The 1x1 means one (dedicated) transmit antenna and 1 (dedicated) receive antenna; the antenna itself can be any frequency (either 2.4GHz or 5GHz) but almost all the time, it is 2.4GHz (I agree) but it does not have to be since the 1x1 is indicating the de"   dicated "channels" and NOT the frequency band! 09/06/2015 09:20:46PM Agent (Vann): "It looks you've done more research on this and you get a lot of understanding how these things work." 09/06/2015 09:21:36PM Agent (Vann): "Can you check this link http:// www.intel.com/content/dam/www/public/us/en/documents/pdf/next-gen-80211ac- wifi-for-dummies.pdf" 09/06/2015 09:21:58PM Ewald Bohm: "I know that the 2x2 has two dedicated "channels" (i.e., antennae), 2 for transmit and 2 for receive. But, again, that does not indicate the FREQUENCY. It "could" mean that they are using 2 frequencies - but - it could also mean that they're NOT using 2 d"   ifferent frequencies. 09/06/2015 09:22:07PM Ewald Bohm: "checking the link ..." 09/06/2015 09:22:53PM Ewald Bohm: "Looking for the specific page ..." 09/06/2015 09:24:08PM Agent (Vann): "I also read from the HP Forums." 09/06/2015 09:24:09PM Agent (Vann): "http://h30434.www3.hp.com/t5/ Wireless-Internet-Home-Networking/WiFi-Connections-HP-laptop-unable-to- find-5Ghz-wireless/td-p/3300523" 09/06/2015 09:24:31PM Agent (Vann): "A dual band card would be listed as either a/b/g/n or a/g/n." 09/06/2015 09:25:00PM Ewald Bohm: "VAnn, you'll notice that, on page 10 of the wifi for dummies, it confirms what I said, which is (verbatim): "In the vernacular of the new multispeed Wi-Fi stan - dards, the number of send and receive antennas and stream configurations are noted as 1x1 (o"   ne antenna supporting one data stream), 2x2 (two antennas sup - porting two data streams), and 3x3. Table 2-2 compares the performance of antenna and stream configurations in the 802.11n and 802.11ac standards" 09/06/2015 09:25:31PM Ewald Bohm: "So, the 2x2 just means the number of antennas. It tells us NOTHING about the frequency." 09/06/2015 09:26:15PM Agent (Vann): "Ewald, I will have to refer this to our product expert and I shall email you the answer." 09/06/2015 09:26:38PM Agent (Vann): "This would consume so much of our time and this is something that I cannot confirm." 09/06/2015 09:26:44PM Ewald Bohm: "Hi VAnn, An "n" card can be dual band - but an "n" card can also be single band. That is why the SPECIFICATION is so important. We'd never have to ASK the question if the spec simply said what it should say!" 09/06/2015 09:26:48PM Agent (Vann): "I admired how you are really want to get the answer of this." 09/06/2015 09:28:23PM Agent (Vann): "I will email the product expert with your questions." 09/06/2015 09:28:24PM Ewald Bohm: "HI Vann, If the specifications were written correctly, we'd never have to ask. In the book you kindly referenced, you'll see this exact quote on the first line of page 11: "Wi-Fi works over two spectrum bands: 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz. Older 802.11bgn uses the"   2.4 GHz frequency" 09/06/2015 09:28:35PM Agent (Vann): "Can you summarize your questions now so I can forward this now." 09/06/2015 09:28:54PM Agent (Vann): "I will be able to email you within 24-248hrs once I get a reply from the product expert." 09/06/2015 09:29:09PM Ewald Bohm: "Later, in |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 06:17PM On Mon, 07 Sep 2015 11:06:16 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote: > OpenOffice and it is free. > Don't have to use word or excel. You have to realize what you're saying, & that your suggestion can't work. If you were suggesting to "me" to use openoffice or staroffice or libreoffice or framemaker or numbers-pages-keynote or polaris office or kingston office or wps office or any number of freeware office look-alike apps, then your suggestion might actually make a lot of sense. But, you can't take the average extremely non-technical grade-school teacher, and seriously suggest they use a free office-like equivalent, when they have enough trouble just getting used to the ribbon changing from one Microsoft office version to another. They complain when they have to open an office 2013 doc in office 2007, and they fail at that, half the time, without help. They can't even print something as simples as a protected PDF without my help. So, if you're suggesting that free office-look-alikes are "equivalent" to office for such a person, then you fundamentally don't understand people. It's just not gonna happen. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 06:29PM On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:42:31 -0700, trader_4 wrote: > Have it your way, you gonna buy the thing or not? You missed the point. I'm trying to *recommend* a laptop for a teacher who is not technical. I started at Costco, but the Costco laptop wasn't dual band. I went to the HP site and can't figure out if it's dual band. If it's dual band, I'll recommend the teacher buys it. If not, I will choose another laptop. I don't actually care what laptop she gets. I'm just trying to help her. The laptop has to be about the right size & shape. It has to be within her price range (around $500 out the door). It has to have MS Office on it. It has to be Windows. Everything else, she's leaving up to me. One thing I'm requiring is dual band 2.4GHz & 5GHz simultaneously (with backward compatibility). All I'm trying to find out is if this HP 15z laptop is dual band. It's amazingly difficult to find this out. I'm online right now with a supposedly-special HP customer support sales hotline (888-999-4747), and they STILL don't know the answer. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 06:40PM On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:17:44 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > 802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz > only 802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed 802.11 > ac ==> 5GHz only Thank you Jeff for clarifying this spec: http://i.imgur.com/hBcFWkQ.jpg After a half hour on three separate HP calls, I learned something (I think) that nobody told me yet... 1. HP Tech Support 888-222-0029 2. Advanced HP Tech Support 866-221-4553 3. HP Shopping Team 888-999-4747 HP: They first told me the ac card was just ac. ME: I told them that this was unlikely, so I asked them to doublecheck. HP: After a long wait, they told me the "ac" card was backwards compatible, but it was only 5GHz. ME: I told them that was impossible. HP: Then, after another long wait, they told me it was NOT dual band, but that it had both bands. ME: I told them that this confused me, and I asked them to clarify. HP: Finally, they came back and said that the "ac" card was backwards compatible, so that it had two frequencies, but they don't operate at the same time, so it's not dual band. ME: I said thank you but I would like to ask you, Jeff, to clarify. Does that HP answer make sense? The "ac" card is backwards compatible, so, it has both frequencies, but it doesn't do both frequencies at the same time? What does that really mean? |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 06:45PM On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 10:17:44 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > Nope. It should be: > 802.11 a ==> 5GHz only 802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only 802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz > only 802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz <=== changed 802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only This should be correct, by now, where I appreciate Jeff's patience: 802.11 a ==> 5GHz only 802.11 b ==> 2.4GHz only 802.11 g ==> 2.4GHz only 802.11 n ==> 2.4GHz or 5GHz (or both?) 802.11 ac ==> 5GHz only Jeff: Notice the question mark in the "n" spec. Is "n" always just *either* frequency (i.e., one or the other). Or can "n" be either one or the other or *both* frequencies? |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 06:57PM On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:46:35 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > Office 2007 will run on Win 10: > Grab Belarc Advisor Jeff. You are correct. But you were thinking differently than I was. You were thinking of bringing the (winxp desktop) 2007 license upward to the new (win10 laptop), and I discounted that out of hand. This is a hand-me-down desktop that someone else didn't want, so they gave it to this teacher, many years ago. It came with zero discs! But that wouldn't stop you or me. If it were you or me, we'd use Belarc to find the original office product key (or serial number, I forget which) and we'd then find the Office 2007 download ISO hidden deeply on the Microsoft web site - and we'd download that Microsoft-provided ISO, perhaps burn it to optical disc for re-use, and we'd simply install Office 2007 on the new laptop from that ISO, and we'd bring over the old key that we unearthed using Belarc Advisor. In the end, you or I would have Office 2007 running on their one (winXP) desktop and their one new (win10) laptop, which is within the license constraints (I believe). But that ain't gonna happen with these people. They are not technical. They can't handle the complexity. Plus, it's time they moved into the new century, so, if they stick with Office 2007 (which they continue to call "Word 2007", not realizing there are multiple office apps), they will eventually have problems reading Office 2013 documents. So, it's time they got a new Microsoft Office suite. Since they will *keep* the WinXP desktop with Office 2007 on it, all we're looking at is a *single* license of Office 2013 (which they continue to call "Word 2013", which means they're not using Outlook). So, the price comparison is the following: 1. Pay $100 per year for Office 365 for the rest of their lives, or, 2. Pay $140 once, for Office 2013 H&S for the one laptop. To me, unless I missed a step, it's a no brainer. |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 07:02PM On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 04:50:53 -0700, trader_4 wrote: > No. But if you google "Intel 802.11 ac wifi Bluetooth" you'll see it > says the Intel product supports dual band. See my post of a few seconds ago where I reported the results of three sets of phone calls to HP today. I have asked Jeff to clarify what they told me, but here's the scoop. In the end, they said, that the "ac" card was backwards compatible, so, that meant that the ac card contained *both* frequencies, but the caveat was that the "ac" card was *not* dual band. When I asked them to clarify, they said it doesn't work on both frequencies at the same time. What does that really mean? Is having two bands dual band, or not? |
| Ewald Böhm <ewvesb@gilltaylor.ca>: Sep 08 07:06PM On Tue, 08 Sep 2015 09:45:19 -0700, trader_4 wrote: > No, because they are obviously the same Intel card, the same part # > and Intel isn't dumb enough to have a wifi AC card that can't also > connect to older networks. That card is dual band, period. After my conversation with HP today, I found out that their "ac" card has both 2.4GHz and 5GHz because it is backward compatible, but they said that backwards-compatible-ac-card is *not* a "dual band" card. Apparently they defined "dual band" in a specific way, that excludes the fact that it has "two" bands. |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 08 04:21PM -0700 On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 18:57:18 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm >This is a hand-me-down desktop that someone else didn't want, so they >gave it to this teacher, many years ago. It came with zero discs! Finding Office 2007 replacement CD's is trivial. Hint: BitTorrent. >that Microsoft-provided ISO, perhaps burn it to optical disc for re-use, >and we'd simply install Office 2007 on the new laptop from that ISO, and >we'd bring over the old key that we unearthed using Belarc Advisor. If it were purchased online from the Microsoft site, and you have the magic serial number, you can download a replacement ISO image. <http://www.microsoft.com/office/downloads/> <https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/302822> >In the end, you or I would have Office 2007 running on their one (winXP) >desktop and their one new (win10) laptop, which is within the license >constraints (I believe). Yep. I vaguely recall that Office 2007 works on 2 machines. Not sure. >But that ain't gonna happen with these people. >They are not technical. >They can't handle the complexity. I'm technical and I hate complexity. Teachers have students, which just love to help with such things. Some of the teenage hackers are quite knowledgeable and have impressive experience in the dark arts of computing. Ask the students for help. >Office 2007 (which they continue to call "Word 2007", not realizing there >are multiple office apps), they will eventually have problems reading >Office 2013 documents. Maybe, but that hasn't been my experience. I can read most anything produced by Office 2007, 2010, and 2013 with Office 2003 and the MS Compatibility Pack: <http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/download/details.aspx?id=3> However, if there's a problem, I just ask the author to Save As: Word 97 format. >So, it's time they got a new Microsoft Office suite. The way you can tell when it's time to upgrade is when you can't get the work done or that it's painful to use. I have no problems reading or writing with Office 2003 and various file format converters. I find Office 2007/2010 to be tedious, awkward, clumsy, and not much of an improvement over Office 2003. In other words, a step backwards. If your really think it's time for a change, I suggest they step into the (disk) space age, and take the great leap forward to Cloud Computing with a Chromebook and Google Office. >Since they will *keep* the WinXP desktop with Office 2007 on it, all >we're looking at is a *single* license of Office 2013 (which they >continue to call "Word 2013", which means they're not using Outlook). Outlooks is dead anyway because Windoze 10 includes mail and calendar apps. >So, the price comparison is the following: >1. Pay $100 per year for Office 365 for the rest of their lives, or, >2. Pay $140 once, for Office 2013 H&S for the one laptop. 3. Pay nothing and use Google Office, LibreOffice, or similar free alternatives. >To me, unless I missed a step, it's a no brainer. Well, you're right about not using your brain. What I find odd is that your primary reason to spend the money is the inability or unwillingness of a teacher to learn something new. I've seen this phenomenon with teachers in the past, where the monotonous repetition of cramming facts into students heads eventually leads to intellectual ossification. Even in computing, I guess perpetual reptition of the same mistakes is considered a good reason not to change one's habits. Personally, I find the logic disgusting, but I promised to improve my diplomacy and won't push the point any further. Here's what I suggest: 1. Have the teacher beg, borrow, buy, or steal a Chromebook. I have several Acer products and find them quite good and cheap. <http://stores.ebay.com/Acer/Chromebooks-/_i.html?_fsub=7070078010> The various C720 models are what I use and like (also to run Linux). Figure about $120 to $175 refurbished. 2. Have one or more of the teachers students setup the Chromebook so that it's ready to use. The learning curve is not very steep or long, but since that seems to be an issue here, faster is better. 3. Have the teacher learn to user various Cloud Computing services, such as Google Cloud, MS Skydrive/OneDrive, etc. Also have the teacher learn to run apps inside the browser. If MS Word is required, then MS has the real thing available: <https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/word-online/fiombgjlkfpdpkbhfioofeeinbehmajg> 4. If the teacher makes it this far, the rest should be obvious. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 08 04:47PM -0700 On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 18:40:39 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm >compatible, so that it had two frequencies, but they don't operate at the >same time, so it's not dual band. >ME: I said thank you but I would like to ask you, Jeff, to clarify. Please note that I did not suggest that you call support. I suggested you call pre-sales support (shopping team or something similar) and ask what model Intel wireless card is the "ac" device. >Does that HP answer make sense? Sorta, if I read between the lines. >The "ac" card is backwards compatible, so, it has both frequencies, but >it doesn't do both frequencies at the same time? "ac" is always backwards compatible to "a". It has to be. Short lecture follows: If you force the wireless router (not the client radio in the laptop) to do only "ac", then the maximum from router to laptop will be rather short. Basically, at a fixed power level, you trade range for speed. "ac" is all about speed, so the range decreases when it's used. If the BER (bit error rate) increases above some pre-programmed level, the router in "ac" mode will slow down, eventually going to the slowest "ac" mode speed. To go slower than that, it would need to revert to some "n" mode. Once the router slows down to the slowest "n" mode, it will need to go to ordinary "a" mode. If it didn't go: ac -> n -> a the wireless connection would not work more than a few feet in "ac" mode. Therefore, to obtain tolerable performance at reasonable ranges, the wireless devices need to support all the modes down to "a". There is one exception. 802.11b is so disgustingly slow that the 802.11n spec (and others) demand that 802.11b be disabled if 802.11n is active. End of lecture section (for now). Quiz to follow. Now, on to the "dual band" problem. The issue of "simultaneous dual band" is more of a router problem than a client radio problem. The usual idea is that you can have different devices use different bands as required. To do this requires simultaneous dual band in the router, but not in the laptop client radio. For example, I've setup Roku wireless media player boxes to use 5GHz, while the laptops and tablets are all on 2.4 Ghz. I've also done the reverse, when there's so much screaming media traffic on 2.4Ghz that the only band that's usable is 5GHz. <http://www.netgear.com/landing/dual-band.aspx> <http://www.engadget.com/2009/05/01/how-to-set-up-dual-band-wifi-and-juice-your-downloads/> Simultaneous dual band is (in my opinion) a requirement for wireless routers and access points. However, for laptops, tablets, and wireless client radios, it's only useful for marketing types that want to advertise higher speeds. There are protocols for bonding both the 2.4 and 5GHz channels between a laptop and a router in order to get higher download speeds. You're not going to see that on a $350 laptop and don't need it anyway. Therefore, the HP phone person was right that it's one band at a time, not both simultaneously. Incidentally, the Bluetooth device shares the same radio as the 2.4GHz wi-fi section and are setup to alternate their operation so as to not mutually interfere with each other. >What does that really mean? It means you've educated the HP phone support person. Somehow, I don't think that was your intent. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 08 10:29PM -0700 On Tue, 8 Sep 2015 19:02:36 +0000 (UTC), Ewald Böhm >frequencies at the same time. >What does that really mean? >Is having two bands dual band, or not? I just hate it when you ask consistently good questions. I feel obligated to answer when I would rather roll over and die from spending most of the Labor Day holiday running wires under a house. I'm getting too old for this kind of work. Operating on both frequencies at the same time is called "simultaneous dual band". This is commonly found in wireless routers and wireless access points, but not in wireless client radios, like the one in your prospective HP laptop. The wireless router needs simultaneous dual band because it might have two different users, connected at the same time, each on a different band. Were the radio NOT simultaneous dual band, the traffic bandwidth would be roughly cut in half because the wireless router radio would need to switch back and forth between the two users. However, with simultaneous dual band, it could service both users at the same time without any loss of bandwidth. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| M.Joshi <M.Joshi@eternal-september.org>: Sep 08 10:22PM Hello Dave, Thanks so much for the link. |
| liveitup@mchsi.com: Sep 08 11:19AM -0700 Trying to find a Old monitor to buy ELO ETC140C-75WB Accutouch Thanks |
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