- Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigerating - 21 Updates
- Deoxt - 4 Updates
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Jul 11 11:07PM -0400 On 7/11/2016 10:20 PM, Ryou Kudo wrote: |
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Jul 11 11:13PM -0400 On 7/11/2016 10:20 PM, Ryou Kudo wrote: > Actually, I just realized I could leave the START wire off, right? > So the question is whether it's dangerous or not to just run with the two > wires connected to the compressor for a few hours, RUN and COMMON? Well, you need the Start wire for a few seconds, to get it started. Then the Start wire should NOT be connected. But that doesn't change whether the compressor will overheat. Which it will if it hasn't actually started. With the overload protector in there, it only took, what, 20 seconds to trip? The engineer who designed it thought that 20 seconds was the longest that it should "run" if it hadn't started. Bob Excuse the previous null post - brain fart. |
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Jul 11 11:15PM -0400 On 7/11/2016 10:18 PM, Danny D. wrote: > but it does have an inductive clip that I can clip on. > Looking at the manual it has 3A, 15A, and 30A AC current ranges. > ... That's good - I would use the 15A range, 3A isn't going to be enough. |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 12:02AM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm1jna$n5j$1@news.mixmin.net... > Which line in this picture is that "discharge line" that will get hot? > http://i.cubeupload.com/wAX37P.jpg > How long will it take to get hot? The small line on the far right is the compressor high side (output). The bent tube in the center is the process tube where the system is pulled to vacuum then charged with refrigerant. The tube on the left is the suction line and pulls evaporated cold gas from the cold coils inside the refrigerator. Do a google search on refrigeration cycle for more details. It should begin to heat up quickly (minutes or so) if the compressor is running. |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 01:19AM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm1dio$c2m$1@news.mixmin.net... > I did check the resistance when I was trying to figure the pinout of the > compressor three pins, and all are insulated. > But thank you for that idea as I had not mentioned that test. This may help you if you have a good meter that will read low ohms. http://fixitnow.com/wp/2010/09/09/identifying-compressor-terminals-start-run-and-main/ |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 01:43AM -0400 "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net> wrote in message news:nm1ukf$c9h$1@dont-email.me... > http://fixitnow.com/wp/2010/09/09/identifying-compressor-terminals-start-run-and-main/ One other thing to search on is CSIR compressor. That stands for Capacitor Start - Induction Run motor. Since you unit seems to only have the one capacitor, it is likely a CSIR compressor. If you can pop open the start relay and see if there really is a relay, it will be a current relay that on start up the high current pulls in the relay and connects the line high to the start winding. Once the compressor is running, the relay drops out and disconnects the capacitor. You can do as the one poster suggest and make up jumpers and see if you can get the compressor to start. Identify the three terminals (C-S-R for Common, Start, and Run) Think through the problem and you should be able to make some progress. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 11 10:06PM On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 11:11:31 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote: > WE "got's to know": did you try it & what happened? I apologize for missing yesterday. I had a family engagement. All the salmon is gone by now, so I have more time anyway. :) What do you make of these results? Given: 1. Relay continuity http://i.cubeupload.com/EpNXUi.jpg 2. Relay power: http://i.cubeupload.com/AIlj4p.jpg 3. I guess that these are the motor terminals: http://i.cubeupload.com/23ew1U.jpg 4. Here is the suggested test jig with the cap in series with the terminal that I "think" is the START terminal: http://i.cubeupload.com/WrCzv4.jpg 5. I accidentally hooked it up backward the first time, with the HOT wire splitting into two, one of which went through the capacitor and then to what I think is the compressor START terminal - and the other hot went to what I think is the compressor RUN terminal. http://i.cubeupload.com/UJcLZD.jpg 6. Then I labeled the wires, and hooked it up the opposite way - with the HOT wire going only to what I think is the compressor topward COMMON terminal. One neutral wire went to the capacitor and then to what I think is the compressor bottom-forward-facing START terminal and the other neutral went to what I think is the compressor bottom-rearward facing RUN terminal. http://i.cubeupload.com/ryMq7y.jpg In both tests, the motor just hummed but did not appear to start. When I pulled what I think is the start wire neutral off, the hum didn't change. What do you make of this? What are my options? (PS: Money is tight). |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 11 10:13PM On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 15:02:16 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: > A 12uf 5,000 volt capacitor charged up could hurt you. ^_^ The markings on this cap are: http://i.cubeupload.com/QBVskg.jpg 1. 12uF 2. 180VAC (it was charged to 120VAC) 3. 10,000AFC (I presume this is cycles?) 4. 50/60Hz Can that 120VAC 12uF zap kill me? Is it safe (to the cap) to short the terminals? |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 12:08AM On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:43:35 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote: > Actually, with AC, it's all the same. Functionally, that is - there is > a safety difference. I hadn't thought of that. I did avoid touching the chassis. :) > current to about 1/2 amp (its impedance is 220 ohms), while the run > current is likely 6, 8, or more amps. I.e., the start current is too > small to notice when it's removed. Thanks for explaining that the start current is much less than the run current, so the motor "sounds" wouldn't be easily discerned. > the compressor is shot. Oh ... somebody said that the "Freon" line > could be plugged. That could be, but diagnosing and fixing that would > be just as expensive. I don't know how to test for a plugged freon line either. :( > I suppose, for the hell of it, you could try reversing the start & run > leads. Can't hurt & maybe there was a brain fart that got their > identities reversed. Thanks for that idea. I just reversed the START and RUN terminals, and there was no difference. It hummed but didn't kick on. One problem is that I can't tell what's going on from the sound, but when I hooked all the old parts back, it kicked off again as it did when I started this thread. Sigh. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 12:09AM On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 16:28:36 -0700 (PDT), Uncle Monster wrote: > I doubt the capacitor would cause your demise unless you jabbed electrodes into your heart and discharged the cap through them. The safest way to discharge any motor start/run capacitor is by putting a five thousand ohm resistor across it. I've used a 60 watt light bulb across the terminals of a big motor start electrolytic capacitor because shorting it with a screwdriver or piece of wire can damage the Faston terminals. If you're worried about any charge on the capacitor, use my light bulb trick. ^_^ Ah, resistance. Why didn't I think of that. I'll make a test jig out of the existing wires, and put a 5K ohm resistor on it. Thanks for that idea. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 02:40PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 01:19:23 -0400, tom wrote: > This may help you if you have a good meter that will read low ohms. > http://fixitnow.com/wp/2010/09/09/identifying-compressor-terminals-start-run-and-main/ Thank you for that reference which said: a. The highest reading will be the ´Start¡ winding b. The next highest reading will be the ´Run¡ winding c. The lowest reading will be the ´Common¡ winding Unfortunately, I lent my Fluke DMM to my ex brother in law, and he hasn't returned it yet - but I did check with the emergency Radio Shack dial meter, and I think I've properly identified the COMMON, START, and RUN terminals on the compressor. I zeroed the Radio Shack meter, and put the ohms on the lowest setting (RX100), and tested. 1. The (reputed) START to COMMON was "about" 5 ohms 2. The (reputed) RUN to COMMON was "slightly less" 3. The START to RUN was slightly less than 10 ohms Also, I checked the resistance to ground (i.e., to the copper pipes). First I checked that the copper pipe was grounded, and they were. Then I checked each terminal on the compressor to the pipe and they were all infinite. So, *electrically*, the compressor checks out perfectly (within the abilities of my instruments). There is the mechanical part though ... still to test. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 02:59PM On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 23:15:58 -0400, Bob Engelhardt wrote: > That's good - I would use the 15A range, 3A isn't going to be enough. Hi Bob, Thanks for sticking with me in my hour of need! I think the problem is mechanical, so I'd first like to clarify the inlet and outlet. Is the inlet on the right and the outlet on the left in this picture? http://i.cubeupload.com/9ZZ7fw.jpg I am not sure if I interpret Locked Rotor Amperage (LRA) specs correctly (from googling), but this sticker on the R134a compressor shows a LRA of 17.6 amps, so I think the inrush current is 17.6 amps, so that would take the 30A scale, at least initially. http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg I tried the test with the capacitor, and without the capacitor (using a screwdriver to momentarily short the RUN and START terminals). Then, as you suggested, I started on the 30A scale: http://i.cubeupload.com/QzjAQt.jpg On the 30A scale, the inductive current is 12A: http://i.cubeupload.com/4gpdlF.jpg On the 15A scale of the meter, the meter is pegged: http://i.cubeupload.com/sOBHcz.jpg I also doublechecked the resistance, which seems to show good numbers: A. COMMON to START = about 5 ohms (hard to read the Rx100 scale) B. COMMON to RUN = slightly less than 5 ohms C. START to RUN = slightly less than 10 ohms Given all that, I tentatively assume that the motor is working fine electrically; but that mechanically, it seems to be locked up. However, I would have expected 17.6 Amps if the motor were locked up, so, I'm curious why I get 12 Amps instead - but maybe that's because it never started? |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 03:16PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 00:02:40 -0400, tom wrote: > Do a google search on refrigeration cycle for more details. > It should begin to heat up quickly (minutes or so) if the compressor is > running. Thanks for the information as to what the three tubes are. How is the annotation on this photo? http://i.cubeupload.com/LQ7jqz.jpg The LRA is 17.6 amps and with just two leads on the RUN and COMMON, it's pulling 12 Amps. I think I have to figure out whether there is a "restriction" in the flow of the R134a fluid/gas. |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 11:36AM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm31ki$383$1@gioia.aioe.org... > pulling 12 Amps. > I think I have to figure out whether there is a "restriction" in the flow > of the R134a fluid/gas. The drawing looks correct. I don't think it is a restriction in the gas circuit. Leaving the unit sit for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize. It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the piston. |
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Jul 12 11:46AM -0400 On 7/12/2016 10:59 AM, Danny D. wrote: ... > Is the inlet on the right and the outlet on the left in this picture? > http://i.cubeupload.com/9ZZ7fw.jpg I can't help you there. Tom? > C. START to RUN = slightly less than 10 ohms > Given all that, I tentatively assume that the motor is working fine > electrically; but that mechanically, it seems to be locked up. That sounds right. > However, I would have expected 17.6 Amps if the motor were locked up, so, > I'm curious why I get 12 Amps instead - but maybe that's because it never > started? If the motor isn't starting, that is "locked rotor". That it's 12A & not 17.6 is not particularly useful. 12A is still way more than running current. That's 1440 watts & I'd guess the operating power to be 400W (4A), maybe, probably less. 400W is about 1/3hp, which seems like a lot for a fridge. Bob |
| Nobody Here <Nobody@nowhere.com>: Jul 12 06:02PM My guess is the overload / start relay on the side of the compressor. A quick check is to remove it and listen to it while you shake it. If it rattles, it is bad. These are around $45 from Sears, may be cheaper if you prowl around ebay. You can get the part numbers from Sears. It could also be the start / run capacitor... around $10 for the part. But I would be more inclined to think the relay. That is what went out on mine. On Fri, 08 Jul 2016 23:22:01 +0000, Danny D. wrote: --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 07:22PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 11:36:19 -0400, tom wrote: > for a day would most likely let the pressures to equalize. > It might be a mechanical issue like a reed valve broken and jamming the > piston. I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the compressor. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 07:31PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 09:29:43 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: > plus an estimate to fix it, and it will likley be just an estimate. > B - Following step A, are you prepared to spend $500+ to fix it? > That's all you need to figure out. I think the compressor is electrically good, and I think the start cap is electrically good and I think the relay/overload is electrically good. In addition to a mechanically bad compressor, that still leaves either low R34a or a blockage (neither of which is likely), although a compressor mechanically going bad in just 6 years is also unlikely since they're built to last longer than that. It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find. |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 03:46PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3gi7$7re$1@news.mixmin.net... > to last longer than that. > It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the > hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find. https://www.google.com/search?q=hermetic+refrigeration+compressor+pictures&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=646&tbm=isch&imgil=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%253Bdwoy9-wprqoGfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ref-wiki.com%25252Ftechnical-information%25252F145-compressors%25252F31773-hermetic-compressors.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%252Cdwoy9-wprqoGfM%252C_&usg=__v0Z_k8Dk-8wDwTgId9DwnpzWm20%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj0xb2l2O7NAhXJ2SYKHQFCApMQyjcIOQ&ei=-EiFV_TpFMmzmwGBhImYCQ#imgrc=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%3A |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 03:54PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3gi7$7re$1@news.mixmin.net... > to last longer than that. > It would be fantastic if I could find a picture of what is inside the > hermetically sealed black box. It's amazingly difficult to find. BTW, use the part number on the label of the compressor and do a google search. EM2Z80HLT Embraco is the manufacturer. BTW-2 The LRC at 17.5 amps is at the higest rated line voltage of 127 volts. That is why you are seeing a lower reading. BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut and could be separated and cleaned. BTW-4 Good luck. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 07:56PM On 12 Jul 2016 18:02:12 GMT, Nobody Here wrote: > It could also be the start / run capacitor... around $10 for the part. > But I would be more inclined to think the relay. That is what went out on > mine. I hooked 120 VAC to the COMMON (hot) and RUN (neutral) and then jumped, with a screwdriver, the START (neutral) but that didn't start the compressor. I did the same thing, essentially, with the 12uF capacitor hooked in series with the RUN, and it didn't start. |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Jul 11 11:40PM -0400 In article <f0d57e1f-3bb5-4750-8010-ba75c696de20@googlegroups.com>, pallison49@gmail.com says... > There are many similar products too, like CRC2-26 that have the same formulation and so do exactly the same job while costing more. > What the heck do you use ? > .... Phil Depends on what I am doing. Where many would use WD40 as a cleaner, I use Kroil as a penetrating type of oil and a few other usages. For some cleaning of the grease off large pieces of metal I use Ed's Red. |
| dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt): Jul 11 01:51PM -0700 >using some of the Deoxit on the switch. Would that be ok or not. >I would hate to mess up the switches as they would be almost impossiable >to find replacements for . First recommendation would be "stick to the manufacturer's rules". They may know something we don't. I've read a number of comments (Hi, Jeff!) that DeOxIt is *not* a good thing to use on gold-plated contacts. Gold plating is often somewhat porous, and the DeOxIt can creep through the pores down to the base metal and may actually attack it. This can cause the gold plating to fail. CAIG makes a different product ("ProGold") which is intended for gold-plated contacts, and if I understand correctly, it's intended to avoid this problem. Your Tek's switch may actually be suffering from contact wear, rather than contact surface contamination. If I recall properly, the delicate contact fingers in the switch do "rub" slightly on the contact pads when the switch is activated, and over time this can wear away the gold plating, and the contact don't work well after that. Cleaning (with ispropanol or anything else) isn't going to help this situation more than very temporarily. I haven't found a solution (so to speak :-) ) for this sort of problem, other than an actual repair of the switch (replace the contact fingers) and as you note, this may not be possible due to lack of available parts. |
| N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk>: Jul 12 09:12AM +0100 On 12/07/2016 04:40, Ralph Mowery wrote: > use Kroil as a penetrating type of oil and a few other usages. > For some cleaning of the grease off large pieces of metal > I use Ed's Red. Doesn't WD40 attack certain plastic, and unless you know what plastic is in a switch, try on a scrapper example first |
| Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Jul 12 02:35AM -0700 "Nutcase Kook " wrote: > Doesn't WD40 attack certain plastic, ** More paranoid drivel from the resident looney. Yawwnnnnnnnnnnnn...... FYI: None of the plastics used for switches, pots or connectors in electronics is affected by using WD40 - even when soaked in the liquid. In any case, the volatile part evaporates in a short time leaving behind only a thin mineral oil residue. .... Phil |
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