- Debug advice Kenmore coldspot 106-59422801 stopped refrigerating - 15 Updates
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| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 07:56PM On 12 Jul 2016 18:02:12 GMT, Nobody Here wrote: > It could also be the start / run capacitor... around $10 for the part. > But I would be more inclined to think the relay. That is what went out on > mine. I hooked 120 VAC to the COMMON (hot) and RUN (neutral) and then jumped, with a screwdriver, the START (neutral) but that didn't start the compressor. I did the same thing, essentially, with the 12uF capacitor hooked in series with the RUN, and it didn't start. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 08:02PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:46:59 -0400, tom wrote: > https://www.google.com/search?q=hermetic+refrigeration+compressor+pictures&sa=X&biw=1024&bih=646&tbm=isch&imgil=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%253Bdwoy9-wprqoGfM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.ref-wiki.com%25252Ftechnical-information%25252F145-compressors%25252F31773-hermetic-compressors.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%253A%252Cdwoy9-wprqoGfM%252C_&usg=__v0Z_k8Dk-8wDwTgId9DwnpzWm20%3D&ved=0ahUKEwj0xb2l2O7NAhXJ2SYKHQFCApMQyjcIOQ&ei=-EiFV_TpFMmzmwGBhImYCQ#imgrc=F37BQOH_xZTzVM%3A Wow. That thing is jam packed! http://www.ref-wiki.com/img_article/compressor.jpg It almost makes me want to cut it open and look to see what went wrong! http://www.secop.com/fileadmin/user_data/images/compressor_knowledge/hermetic_compressors/secop_hermetic_compressor_glass_2.jpg There seem like plenty of mechanical parts to go bad: http://www.secop.com/fileadmin/user_data/images/compressor_knowledge/hermetic_compressors/secop_hermetic_compressor_glass_1.jpg Thanks! |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 04:04PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3i1e$aas$1@news.mixmin.net... > I did the same thing, essentially, with the 12uF capacitor hooked in > series > with the RUN, and it didn't start. I would connect Neutral to the Common and Line to the Run. Connect the Run capacitor from Run to Start. Apply power and momentary short the capacitor. See if that does anything. You might give the can a few good wacks with a hammer in case it is just something jammed in the pump. Do you know anyone that does automotive AC work? They would have most of what is needed to change out the compressor sans a good torch and sil-fos brazing rod. Or wait for a good appliance sale. |
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Jul 12 04:11PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 3:54 PM, tom wrote: ... > BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would > pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut > and could be separated and cleaned. ... I agree about the cap. The parts guy test could have been it's not shorted & it's not open. That leaves a bad value. E.g., a too small capacitance that doesn't provide enough start current. But I guess that you could test that by measuring the current through the start winding, using your test rig with cap. The relay is pretty much eliminated as the problem through using your test rig. |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 08:21PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 15:54:44 -0400, tom wrote: > EM2Z80HLT Embraco is the manufacturer. > BTW-2 The LRC at 17.5 amps is at the higest rated line voltage of 127 volts. > That is why you are seeing a lower reading. Thanks for explaining why I'm only seeing 12 Amps when the compressor won't start when the Locked Rotor Amperage (LRA) spec is 17.6 Amps. http://i.cubeupload.com/34bCaq.jpg I generally try to "diagnose" parts before giving up on them. It's just so much easier (mentally) to replace stuff that I *know* for a fact is bad, then to replace stuff that I "think" is bad. I'm sure it is far easier, mentally, for the type of people who "throw parts at the problem" to replace things that they haven't completely tested. > BTW-3 If this were me, I would at least try a new capacitor. Also I would > pop open the relay and have a look see. Maybe the contacts are welded shut > and could be separated and cleaned. While the capacitor has been tested, I understand what you're saying, which is to pay a bit less than $100 to replace the cap and starter, essentially throwing parts at the problem. Or, similarly, I can pay a bit over $100 to have a tech come out and tell me, for sure, what needs fixing. Most of the time, when those are my options, I generally opt to buy the tools for $100, where the tool either fixes the problem or the tool tells me exactly what that problem is. But, in this case, I don't think there is that $100 tool option, is there? |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 09:15PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 13:34:29 -0700 (PDT), trader_4 wrote: > None of that really matters. You still have choice of either a new fridge > or A which is spend $150 to find out it's hosed, very likely followed by B, > which is to spend $500+ to fix it. You should never have written that, because my wife happened to ask me what I was doing, and she looked at your post, and pointed at me, saying "See! I *told* you we needed a new frig!" :) |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 05:26PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3jg9$d0q$1@news.mixmin.net... > tools for $100, where the tool either fixes the problem or the tool tells > me exactly what that problem is. > But, in this case, I don't think there is that $100 tool option, is there? Apart from this problem, a good Fluke DMM would be on my immediate acquire list. And never loan it out if you want to be able to trust it. There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth looking at. Can you take some more pictures of the start relay? From different angles? |
| Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu>: Jul 12 05:23PM -0500 Danny D. wrote: > While the capacitor has been tested, I understand what you're saying, > which is to pay a bit less than $100 to replace the cap and starter, > essentially throwing parts at the problem. You should be able to get a replacement start cap for MUCH less than $100, and just bypass the starting relay. You will hear instantly if the compressor starts. If it does, the compressor is OK, and the only piece left is the relay. Some time ago I got a run cap from a refrigeration supply for $6. I expected it to be more. And, if the compressor does not start with the new cap and the relay bypassed, then you can be fairly sure the compressor cannot be salvaged. Jon |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 12 06:33PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 3:22 PM, Danny D. wrote: >> piston. > I don't know any other way to test for "mechanical" operation of the > compressor. Pump out all the refrigerant. Saw the top off the compressor. After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld. Replace the refrigerant. No problem for you, right? -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 12 06:35PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 5:26 PM, tom wrote: > There are "hard start" compressor starters available that might be worth > looking at. Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago, and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored my hints and reminders. -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 12 10:59PM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 16:04:12 -0400, tom wrote: > See if that does anything. > You might give the can a few good wacks with a hammer in case it is just > something jammed in the pump. Googling for how to "unlock a compressor", I found mention of a "hard start kit", which some people say is the same as a "3n1", but others say they're different: http://appliantology.org/topic/40875-3-1-start-kit-fire-danger-do-techs-use-them-regularly/ Calling local appliance stores, they say they're the same thing (but that reference above says they're not the same thing). The local appliance store has a Supco RC0410 "hard start kit" in stock: http://www.azpartsmaster.com/Products/SUPCO-RC0410-Refrigerator-Compressor-Hard-Start-Kit__B95530.aspx Amazon also sells these "RC0410 Hard Start Kits": https://www.amazon.com/Supco-RCO410-OVERLOAD-CAPACITOR-Electronics/dp/B000LDB89S Some people equate the 3n1 with the "hard start kit": http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/hvac/compressors-line-filter-dryers/hard-start-kits/supco-3-n-1-hard-start-14-13-hp?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CLzx5YuD780CFYlrfgod-QIJPg My question: Q: Is the hard start kit and the 3n1 the same thing or different? Do you have experience with it kicking off a stuck compressor? |
| Bob Engelhardt <BobEngelhardt@comcast.net>: Jul 12 07:08PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 6:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: > Don't bother. I suggested that a week ago, > and Danny totally ignored me. And ignored > my hints and reminders. Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were too pissed from his ignoring you. |
| "tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Jul 12 08:20PM -0400 "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:nm3soq$tsv$1@news.mixmin.net... > My question: > Q: Is the hard start kit and the 3n1 the same thing or different? > Do you have experience with it kicking off a stuck compressor? From the ad: The 3 n' 1 Start Relay adds new life to old refrigerators and freezers by providing an additional boost to the compressor. 1/4 and 1/3 Horsepower a.. 115-230VAC So it looks like they are the same. And no, never used one. Stuck compressors are very rare. Most of the time the windings overheat and short. The arcing produces acids that ruin the compressor. But for $16 why not give it a try? Can you take some more pictures of the start relay? Can you open the start relay for inspection? It looks like it just snaps together. |
| Stormin Mormon <cayoung61@hotmail.com>: Jul 12 09:53PM -0400 On 7/12/2016 7:08 PM, Bob Engelhardt wrote: >> my hints and reminders. > Actually, I don't think that you did. You probably meant to, but were > too pissed from his ignoring you. Think I remember at least one reminder. Well, moot point. He's gone so far afield on so many directions, there's no contacting him, now. -- . Christopher A. Young learn more about Jesus . www.lds.org . . |
| "Danny D." <dannydiamico@yahoo.com>: Jul 13 02:46AM On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:33:27 -0400, Stormin Mormon wrote: > After the inspection, weld the compressor using a gas tight "bead" of weld. > Replace the refrigerant. > No problem for you, right? :) |
| Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net>: Jul 12 09:50AM -0400 On 07/12/2016 04:12 AM, N_Cook wrote: >> I use Ed's Red. > Doesn't WD40 attack certain plastic, and unless you know what plastic is > in a switch, try on a scrapper example first Especially since the switches later Tek portable scopes have plastic parts that fail often. Dunno if the 465 has them or not, but the 485 does. Cheers Phil Hobbs -- Dr Philip C D Hobbs Principal Consultant ElectroOptical Innovations LLC Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics 160 North State Road #203 Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 hobbs at electrooptical dot net http://electrooptical.net |
| Wond <gboot.phil@gmx.com>: Jul 12 03:02PM On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:35:29 -0700, Phil Allison wrote: > formulation and so do exactly the same job while costing more. > What the heck do you use ? > .... Phil My favourite is Nu-Trol from MG Chemicals. |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 12 09:04AM -0700 On Mon, 11 Jul 2016 19:48:43 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison >> using the old stuff with oleic acid, wash off the contacts with >> alcohol after you've removed the black silver oxide coating. >** The dark coating that forms on silver is *silver sulphate* (aka Ag2S). I stand half way corrected. Y'er right. Most of the tarnish is silver sulphide. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_sulfide> "This dense black solid constitutes the tarnish that forms over time on silverware and other silver objects." Also, silver oxide is also dark colored: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_oxide> "Tarnish" is a mixture of silver oxide and silver sulphide, in proportions that vary with whatever is causing the silver to tarnish. Silver sulphide tarnishes rather quickly in the presence of sulphur bearing compounds, while silver oxide takes months to accumulate. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_oxide> "...silver needs hydrogen sulfide to tarnish, although it may tarnish with oxygen over time." >like WD40. >The idea of using oleic acid on electrical contacts worries as it >must become conductive under enough voltage. What do you mean "must become conductive"? Do you mean that the oleic acid becomes conductive, or perhaps the contact cleaner? Unlikely because the oleic acid will attack copper and therefore must be washed off by something after its used to clean the oxides, sulphides, crud, dirt, tar, and oils off the contacts. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Jul 12 12:44PM -0400 In article <me4aoblk09e4q0h1r6aff0sbdi451fa0jn@4ax.com>, jeffl@cruzio.com says... > because the oleic acid will attack copper and therefore must be washed > off by something after its used to clean the oxides, sulphides, crud, > dirt, tar, and oils off the contacts. The Deoxit I bought a few days ago must not contain any of the oleic acid. Not mentioned on the can. This is Deoxit D5. The can says it protects surfaces so doubt this is a copper eating compound. The directions say to spray and activate the knobs. Then give it a short spray and wait 2 minutes before turning the equipment on. I guess that the wait time is to make sure any thaing that burns has evaporated. There is no mention of cleaning it off, but really should be left on the contacts from the way I read it. |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Jul 12 10:45AM -0700 On Tuesday, July 12, 2016 at 12:44:28 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote: > The Deoxit I bought a few days ago must not contain any of the oleic > acid. Not mentioned on the can. This is Deoxit D5. The can says it > protects surfaces so doubt this is a copper eating compound. When I was working overseas in a country where all products were required to have all contents listed in clear terms, Cramolin Red had a paper label on it that stated: Ingredients: Oleic Acid 5% Petroleum hydrocarbons and propellants 95%. It also cost only about $4 for a 300 ml. spray can. Oleic acid has been around the metals cleaning, clock-making and fine machinery industries for well over 100 years and has been used primarily as a degreaser and oxide remover, primarily for those metals containing copper, tin or zinc. Covers much of what we do here. In the US, Caig once had a relationship with Cramolin - selling Cramolin's products packaged for US markets. That relationship failed. And - the story behind the Caig Company, DeOxit, Cramolin and Cramolin Red is fascinating and does not reflect well on Caig. I will not use Caig's products. Full Stop. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 12 11:25AM -0700 On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 10:45:58 -0700 (PDT), "pfjw@aol.com" >I will not use Caig's products. Full Stop. >Peter Wieck >Melrose Park, PA Here's part of the story: <http://www.pitt.edu/~szekeres/caigcram.htm> I'm not sure if the story allegedly from Mr Graham, prez of Caig rings totally true. The "hazardous material" story seems to be a cover for a financial arrangement that went awry. I still have a small bottle of Deoxit R-100L. Over about 20 years, I've only used half the bottle, mostly because I dispensed it by the drop with a syringe. Q-tips and sprays are wasteful. However, for my day to day stuff, I mix my own secret formula cleaner. It's secret because I never mix the stuff accurately or twice the same way. I also can't recall exactly what I tossed into the stew last. I think it's mostly naphtha (Coleman lantern fuel), a little oleic acid, and some automobile engine oil phosphorescent dye so I can see where I slopped the stuff with a UV light. Or, maybe it was some solvent red 26 dye. Ask me again in about 5 years when I'm scheduled to run out and need to mix another batch. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Jul 12 11:38AM -0700 On Tue, 12 Jul 2016 12:44:20 -0400, Ralph Mowery >The Deoxit I bought a few days ago must not contain any of the oleic >acid. It probably doesn't. >Not mentioned on the can. This is Deoxit D5. The can says it >protects surfaces so doubt this is a copper eating compound. The problem here is the MSDS only lists ingredients that are deemed hazardous. Oleic acid is food safe and might not be listed. If you look on the can somewhere, you might find the product number. Then look it up here to see what's inside: <http://store.caig.com/s.nl/sc.18/category.291/.f> Don't be surprised if it says "proprietary ingredient" or something similar. The SDS sheet is nearly useless. Taking a wild guess, I blundered upon: <http://store.caig.com/core/media/media.nl?id=1902&c=ACCT113328&h=669fee694d58ba7465c0&whence=> which offers: PETROLEUM NAPHTHA 75% DIFLUOROETHANE 20% DeoxIT® D100L TRADE SECRET 5% Oh well. That's probably the Deoxit product that Caig was reselling back in the 1980's. >that the wait time is to make sure any thaing that burns has evaporated. >There is no mention of cleaning it off, but really should be left on the >contacts from the way I read it. Find a piece of copper. Drip on some Deoxit. See if there's any green colored corrosion. You may need a microscope to see it. -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Jul 12 04:51PM -0400 In article <chdaobhitefakvmkjulk58bhhvkau9tkrm@4ax.com>, jeffl@cruzio.com says... > >contacts from the way I read it. > Find a piece of copper. Drip on some Deoxit. See if there's any > green colored corrosion. You may need a microscope to see it. They do not list the % on the can I have,but that is what is in it on the lable for the can I just bought. I sprayed some on a piece of copper PC board so will wait overnight and see if it turns green. I wish the government would make the companies list everything the put into the products. Not being able to hold back as far as a trade secret. I don't care what percent, but do care about what is in it. |
| dansabrservices@yahoo.com: Jul 12 02:43PM -0700 The MSDS should list all of the chemical ingredients. Check there. |
| Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Jul 12 06:05PM -0400 In article <565f57e6-3068-40bc-88c1-1fe63d4bc50c@googlegroups.com>, dansabrservices@yahoo.com says... > The MSDS should list all of the chemical ingredients. Check there. Not exectally. It lists something called Deoxit D-Series D100L Trade Secret for the CAS No. That tells nothing about what the C100L is. http://hosatech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/MSDS-E-D5S-A_v31.pdf |
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