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dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt): Sep 07 11:13AM -0700 >could be, but I doubt it. The brightness starts going down from digit 10 and >it is really progressive, each digit is dimmer than the one on its >left.   That would suggest to me that the filament is being driven by DC, rather than by AC or a square wave.   The filament is the cathode in the tube. The voltage difference between the cathode, and the fluorescent anode sections, greatly affects the brightness. If you have a voltage drop across the width of the filament (with one side grounded) you'll have different cathode-to-anode voltages across the width of the display, and different digit brightnesses.   One way to avoid this (the usual way) is to heat the filament with an AC or square-wave-DC signal, typically symmetrical around ground. This results in the same average voltage between the anodes, and different points on the filament, and evens out the brightness. If you drive the filament with AC from a separate transformer winding, it's necessary to create some sort of ground return reference for it (for the cathode-to-anode electron flow). This can be done by grounding a center tap on the transformer secondary, or grounding a center point on the filament itself.   The fact that swapping the filament pins didn't affect the problem, makes me suspect that there's a fault inside the tube. Possibly there's an internal short between one end of the filament, and ground.   So, take a look at the voltages and waveforms on the filament drive pins. Ideally, they should be exactly mirror-opposites of one another, with respect to ground. I suspect you'll find that they are not.

frank <frank@invalid.net>: Sep 07 06:58PM Dave Platt <dplatt@coop.radagast.org> wrote:   [...]     > The fact that swapping the filament pins didn't affect the problem, > makes me suspect that there's a fault inside the tube. Possibly > there's an internal short between one end of the filament, and ground.   I haven't been able to measure any short between filament and the rest of the internals (grid, anodes). I've also spent some time checking for shorts between grid-grid, grid-anodes and even anodes-anodes. Since characters are generally made correctly, I didn't expect any short, but I was out of ideas.   > pins. Ideally, they should be exactly mirror-opposites of one > another, with respect to ground. I suspect you'll find that they are > not.   That's the first thing I checked actually. The voltages are not symmetrical respect to the ground, so I swapped the filament pins expecting to have an opposite behaviour, but, the filament supply didn't change (it did not follow the pin swapping) and the brightness situation of all the characters didn't change. The filament waveform is a square wave with rather low duty cycle (and this also probably explains why they got away with this non symmetrical supply in the first place), the DC component is about -11V and it is present on both filament pins, and the square pulses go to about -21V and are applied on one side of the filament. It is obtained with a NE555 based circuit, the duty cycle is probably ok as I measured an RMS value of 6V on the filament and this particular VFD wants 5.8V nominally. I can't still exclude a rather obscure (at least to me) problem in the filament supply, but components are very few and they are all ok. This instrument is rather large with more than 100 ICs scattered around, so I'm not going to reverse engineer a schematic out of it in my lifetime. All the tests in my opinion points to lazy phosphors or low emission from the filament in the last digits. If it was the asymmetrical filament supply, the dim digits would follow the pin swap of the supply. Maybe the hypothesys that the last digits were the ones most used isn't that bad after all. VFD are really nice looking displays, but I must remember to avoid old instruments with those :) Frank

"tom" <tmiller11147@verizon.net>: Sep 07 04:22PM -0400 "frank" <frank@invalid.net> wrote in message news:nqog56$lim$1@usenet.itgate.net... > Any hint is really welcome. > Regards   > Frank IZ8DWF   You might take a look at this:   http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vacuum-fluorescent-display-rejuvenation/

isw <isw@witzend.com>: Sep 07 09:48PM -0700 In article <nqog56$lim$1@usenet.itgate.net>, frank <frank@invalid.net> wrote:   > components I could test looks ok. I swapped the 555 and it doesn't make > any change. If I leave the 555 out, the display has no filament supply. > Any hint is really welcome.   If the filament were made up of two parts in parallel, and one of the parts failed open, could that account for both the dimness and the overheating 555?   Take the thing into a dark room; often you can see a dim glow from the filament. Do you see it over all parts of the display, or only over the "normal" part?   Isaac

frank <frank@invalid.net>: Sep 08 07:27AM > If the filament were made up of two parts in parallel, and one of the > parts failed open, could that account for both the dimness and the > overheating 555?   the filament has two wires that run for all the display length. However I can't tell if these two wires are in parallel or in series electrically. Supposing that the two wires are in parallel, then since they run for all the display length, it shouldn't make any difference on only the rightmost digits. One open wire would also mean higher resistance so probably the 555 would run cooler too.     > Take the thing into a dark room; often you can see a dim glow from the > filament. Do you see it over all parts of the display, or only over the > "normal" part?   I'll try to verify this, just for the sake of it.   Frank

"Mark Zacharias" <mark_zacharias@sbcglobal.net>: Sep 08 06:36AM -0500 "frank" <frank@invalid.net> wrote in message news:nqr3t1$rv1$1@usenet.itgate.net... >> "normal" part?   > I'll try to verify this, just for the sake of it.   > Frank     I dunno - I've seen many VFD's that simply were aged and had similar problems.   Replacement was the fix. Increasing the filament voltage might help, but I suspect the dimmer segments still won't be as good.   I once fed about 60 volts to a nominal 5 volt filament before it failed, so I don't think they are terribly fragile.     Mark Z.

Tim Schwartz <tim@bristolnj.com>: Sep 08 10:00AM -0400 On 9/7/2016 3:38 AM, frank wrote: > Any hint is really welcome. > Regards   > Frank IZ8DWF   Hello all,   I've seen several VFD's that have this issue, usually on the segments that are rarely turned on, like a 12 digit calculator. One temporary fix is to type in a ll "8" on the display, to light the greatest number of segments and let it burn in that way for 24 hours. That usually fixes the problem for a few months.   Regards, Tim Bristol Electronics   P.S. One amplifier manufacturer I deal with and had problems with their display issues a new software revision that had a "light everything on the display" function which they instructed you to leave on for 24 hours, and it did work. I think contamination plates rarely used segments.

frank <frank@invalid.net>: Sep 08 03:38PM > fix is to type in a ll "8" on the display, to light the greatest number > of segments and let it burn in that way for 24 hours. That usually > fixes the problem for a few months.   Thanks for the informations, sounds interesting. I have to make some experiments on this display, either using the driver or making a temporary circuit to light all segments. It's 16 digits (characters really) with 16 segments each.   Frank

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 07 07:01PM -0700 >Original coils were by Goyen Controls, and lasted 20 years before one >failed.   I think you can still buy Goyen valves, solenoids, and rebuild kits: <https://www.baghouseamerica.com/dust-collector-parts/goyen-genuine-parts/ <http://cleanairsystems.com/products/solenoid-valves-for-air-gas-and-water.html> <http://www.uniairproducts.com/uap/goyen/goyen.shtml> etc...     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com>: Sep 08 06:01PM +1000 On 07/09/2016 21:48, pedro wrote: > to reach the joint would - apart from compromising the overall > integrity and insulation characteristics - probably take out untold > turns of the coil itself, rendering the operation pointless.   Can you buy the same coil type but in a 24 Volts AC version? If so, that plus a transformer may be more reliable than the 240VAC version.

pedro <me@privacy.net>: Sep 08 05:15PM +0800 On Wed, 07 Sep 2016 19:01:28 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:   ><https://www.baghouseamerica.com/dust-collector-parts/goyen-genuine-parts/ ><http://cleanairsystems.com/products/solenoid-valves-for-air-gas-and-water.html> ><http://www.uniairproducts.com/uap/goyen/goyen.shtml>   BHA didn't seem to have the coils. The other two are Pentair outlets (Pentair is slightly majority Tyco owned) and will be selling the same parts I currently repeat purchase (*) from Pentair/Tyco here in Oz. These are surprisingly made locally (Sydney) as they were in the "old" Goyen days. It's fair bet that any I source nowadays will have the ROHS curse on them.   I did some Dremel surgery today on one of the dead coils. Despite having differing copper resistivity figures at hand (no consequence) and the wire diameter testing my micrometer, from known ohms of a good coil and some spreadsheeted maths I guesstimate it is 33 or 34AWG.   Maybe Chris' suggestion is worth investigating. The surgery wasn't enough to find the dodgy termination, but thicker winding wire *may* get a better joint.   (*) I date-mark the parts as they go in. The one that just failed was one day short of 18 months, on an oven that gets used about once a week on average.

pedro <me@privacy.net>: Sep 08 05:17PM +0800 On Thu, 8 Sep 2016 18:01:33 +1000, Chris Jones >> turns of the coil itself, rendering the operation pointless.   >Can you buy the same coil type but in a 24 Volts AC version? If so, that >plus a transformer may be more reliable than the 240VAC version.   Well the winding wire will be heavier gauge at 24VAC. Whether that will achieve a more reliable ROHS solder bond is unsure, but it probably couldn't be any worse.

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Sep 08 10:08AM -0400 In article <6ea2tbhrvbnr7kfgiqqk0s270i46bgigss@4ax.com>, me@privacy.net says...   > (*) I date-mark the parts as they go in. The one that just failed was > one day short of 18 months, on an oven that gets used about once a > week on average.   Have you checked the voltage at the coils ? No more than you are using that oven it seems there may be something more than just the coils going on.   I have had very little experiance with the lead free solder, but as it melts at a higher temperature it would seem to me that it should be beter for the simple joints as far as the thermal cycling.

Chris Jones <lugnut808@spam.yahoo.com>: Sep 09 12:48AM +1000 On 08/09/2016 19:17, pedro wrote:   > Well the winding wire will be heavier gauge at 24VAC. Whether that > will achieve a more reliable ROHS solder bond is unsure, but it > probably couldn't be any worse.   It is possible that the solder has dissolved too much of the fine wire, making it too thin. I have had a lot of trouble soldering very fine wire, especially with lead-free solder - the wire will get thinner as it dissolves in the molten solder, leaving it even less robust than its original fragile state. Leaded solder that was deliberately pre-saturated with copper ("Savbit") was supposed to be good for preventing that, but I found it generally unpleasant to use.   As your coils develop their faults over time, I also wonder if the manufaturer left some fairly active flux inside the encapsulation that might be slowly eating the wire near the solder joint when it is warm.   Perhaps you can tell whether the break is at the solder joint, by measuring the low-frequency capacitance of each terminal of the damaged coil with respect to everything else. I doubt that knowing where the break happens would be much use to you, but it is something the manufacturer should be looking into.

etpm@whidbey.com: Sep 08 08:12AM -0700 >Well the winding wire will be heavier gauge at 24VAC. Whether that >will achieve a more reliable ROHS solder bond is unsure, but it >probably couldn't be any worse. Can the valves be relocated to a cooler location? Or can you substitute more robust valves made for hot location use? Eric

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 08 08:17AM -0700 >It's fair bet that any I source nowadays will have the >ROHS curse on them.   Ok, I see you've done your homework. Yes, ROHS is epidemic everywhere.   >having differing copper resistivity figures at hand (no consequence) >and the wire diameter testing my micrometer, from known ohms of a good >coil and some spreadsheeted maths I guesstimate it is 33 or 34AWG.   That's rather thin and could easily fuse. According to the wire table: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge> #34 will fuse at 5A. What do you measure for coil DC resistance?   >Maybe Chris' suggestion is worth investigating. The surgery wasn't >enough to find the dodgy termination, but thicker winding wire *may* >get a better joint.   I agree. Heavier wire may solve or delay the problem. Methinks it would be interesting to know what temperature the solder joint is experiencing. A thermistor or thermocouple glued to as close to the solder connection as possible might provide some interesting numbers. If the position of the solenoid above the oven is the problem, that will show it. Perhaps adding a metal heat shield between the coil and oven?   For fusing, perhaps a small value resistor or "surgistor" in series with the coil might reduce the peak current enough to let the thin wire survive. With an inductor, there should NOT be an inrush peak, but I'm thinking some kind of glitch, spike, or peak might be arriving via the 240VAC line.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Tim Schwartz <tim@bristolnj.com>: Sep 08 09:04AM -0400 On 9/6/2016 10:53 PM, Tim Schwartz wrote:   > Many thanks, > Tim Schwartz > Bristol Electronics   Well, here I am answering my own question. A friend I had e-mail the same question to came up with this link from Alps:   http://www.alps.com/prod/info/E/PDF/Switch/Power/SAFETY.PDF   The 3rd page has what I was looking for. Hope others find this useful too.   Regards, Tim Schwartz Bristol Electronics

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Bob F <bobnospam@gmail.com>: Sep 07 11:52AM -0700 On 8/28/2016 9:54 PM, Micky wrote:   >> No, but if you use it to listen to the radio, you might end up being >> pulled either towards right-wing talk radio or left-wing NPR/APR >> stations :-)   Make sure the sun cannot directly hit the foam when installed in the car.   That Aileene's Tacky Glue sounds really familiar. It may well have been one of the strongest recommendations I read at one reconing website.   You can test the reconed speaker using an audio signal generator through an amp to drive the speaker. Sweep through the base range at various volume levels, and listen for distortion. Reposition the foam as needed if there is a problem. Probably best to test in a similar to installed orientation.

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