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Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 09 09:52AM -0700 >wrote:   >>What do you measure for coil DC resistance?   >Missed that bit. Around 1600 ohms.   Assuming 240VAC, that's: P = E^2 / R = 240Vrms^2 / 1600 = 36 watts That's way too high dissipation for a solenoid valve. Are you sure those are 240VAC solenoids and some other AC voltage? Are the solenoids run by 240VAC or some other voltage?   Also, could you check the eBay listing number? I want to see the coil specs. Nothing found: <http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=322017672259>       -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Sep 09 03:37PM -0400 In article <qfp5tbdui7tp06noacl0sjeotnm34182fu@4ax.com>, jeffl@cruzio.com says...   > Also, could you check the eBay listing number? I want to see the coil > specs. Nothing found: > <http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=322017672259>   Jeff I think you are mixing up the AC and DC power formulas.   I am sure the impedance of the coil at 60 Hz is more than the DC resistance.   That would make the wattage less than what you have calculated using a DC equation.   A quick check of the Goyen catalog shows they draw about .05 to .07 Amps depending on the coil at 240 volts. That is around 10 to 16 watts. The DC resistance of the coils was not given. The coils on many of the valves can be changed to several voltages.

pedro <me@privacy.net>: Sep 10 12:02PM +0800 On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 15:37:02 -0400, Ralph Mowery   >Jeff I think you are mixing up the AC and DC power formulas.   >I am sure the impedance of the coil at 60 Hz is more than the DC >resistance.   The DC resistance averages around 1600 ohms. According to my calcs there are around 4700 turns in the coil, so at 50Hz the impedance incorporates a significant reactance. The coil (obviously) has a ferrous valve plunger in its core.   They are marked 240VAC 50Hz (= our supply here in Oz) and the one I attacked with the Dremel is marked 5W.

pedro <me@privacy.net>: Sep 10 12:02PM +0800 On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 10:03:15 -0400, Ralph Mowery   >Have you looked into another valve company ?   No   >I retired a few years ago from a large company and we had hundreds of >valves similar to that and very few of them failed, especially the >coils. Most did operate on 120 volts.   Of course at 120V the wire would be twice the diameter. If it is corrosive flux at work, it would take longer to eat it away. If it is failing Pbfree solder bonds, who knows.   >Not sure how the valves are in your oven, but maybe you could try 2 of >the 120 volt coils in series.   I am considering that. Meanwhile SWMBO is considering a replacement oven (which as you'd all know, means a complete new kitchen)

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 09 11:22PM -0700 On Fri, 9 Sep 2016 15:37:02 -0400, Ralph Mowery   >Jeff I think you are mixing up the AC and DC power formulas.   Oops. Y'er right. Big rush -> No time -> No brain -> No excuse.   >A quick check of the Goyen catalog shows they draw about .05 to .07 Amps >depending on the coil at 240 volts.   Ok, that's better and less than the 5A fusing current for #34 awg.   >That is around 10 to 16 watts. The DC resistance of the coils was not >given. The coils on many of the valves can be changed to several >voltages.   10 - 16 watts might get the coil quite warm if energized continuously. Probably not enough to melt solder, but certainly will add a few degrees to the heat from the furnace.   I don't think it's overheating from the furnace or the warm coil. It will get hot, but not enough to melt solder. Since various other solenoids have failed in the same manner, I don't think the failures are caused by some kind of soldering defect. The long time that it takes to fail might be the copper wire slowly dissolving in the solder. However, my limited experience indicates that most of the damage occurs immediately during soldering, not many months later. With a 5A fusing current and the rather large inductance of the solenoid, I don't see a high current "surge" fusing the #34 wire.   Offhand, I was thinking something else might be happening here. Something like a sharp edge on the solenoid terminal slowly cutting its way through the copper wire every time the solenoid is energized. It might be 50 Hz vibration work hardening of the wire causing embrittlement. However, these are unlikely to have also occurred in the other replacement solenoids, that also failed. It might be the difference in coefficient of thermal expansion between the epoxy and the copper wire. Usually, some paper or tape wrapping will provide room to expand, but again it would be an amazing coincidence if the same problem appeared in a competetors solenoid.   That leaves external influences, such as line voltage glitches and surges. Get your Dranetz power quality monitor/logger back, borrow something, or just setup a data logger on the AC line.     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 09 11:24PM -0700 On Fri, 09 Sep 2016 23:22:39 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:   >I don't think it's overheating from the furnace or the warm coil.   Sorry, that should be oven, not furnace (in multiple places).   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 10 05:05AM -0700 > P = E^2 / R = 240Vrms^2 / 1600 = 36 watts >That's way too high dissipation for a solenoid valve. >Are you sure those are 240VAC solenoids and some other AC voltage? >Are the solenoids run by 240VAC or some other voltage? "   Ummm, where is the "L" in your equation. If it is 1600 ohms DC resistance it is likely to have considerable inductance. There is also usually some type of metal core which takes it even higher.   That reminds me of a time I threw together a thermostatic control for a window unit air conditioner in a hydroponic grow room. I put the box together with a little transformer and a relay, a DC operated relay. Come to find out once it started it would not stop. I used an electronic thermostat so there was no worries about leveling it or anything, plus he liked the ability to set the timer. Turns out the SOB used a small triac and with DC it would never shut off so I had to start over. Wasn't so bad, just get a different relay and eliminate the rectifiers and filter.   But, the DC relay would not run on AC, and that had to be because of the inductance. I wound up using one for an air conditioning condensing unit, you know, like in back of the house. Typical 24 VAC job, which is what the thermostat was designed for. Put a long ass wire on it too because he wated to be able to place it wherever. he had something like 4,000 watts worth of lights and the thermostat has to be a bit away from them, and also away from the window unit.   In the end it worked but I had learned the hard way you just can't interchange relay with DC and AC coils. And damn, 1600 ohms is alot for just about any wire. Much more than that and it almost ain't wire !

jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 10 05:07AM -0700 >"Jeff I think you are mixing up the AC and DC power formulas. "   I just posted something to that effect not having seen your post. I know the guy is smart and I guess he just had a blonde moment.

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Sep 10 10:25AM -0400 In article <cp77tbd2gk36b8o2h4977bespmnng8u6r3@4ax.com>, jeffl@cruzio.com says...   > 10 - 16 watts might get the coil quite warm if energized continuously. > Probably not enough to melt solder, but certainly will add a few > degrees to the heat from the furnace.   WE had hundreds of that brand where I worked and some were pulsed every 30 seconds or so and some were almost always on. Hardly any problems with the coils. The ones that were on most of the time ran hot enough that you would almost burn your hand. Some of them were where the room temperature was over 100 deg F. The plant made polyester and the process required about 300 deg C of heat. I said room, but those areas were not occupied except to check on the equipment from time to time.   Most problems were either the rubber disk wearing out or the plunger enlarging due to all the beating they take or the spring wearing out. The plunger is enclosed so no way for it to touch the coil form. While it could be something in the coil, I would think that as many that he changed out it must be something external.   One other thing, is the coil all the way seated on where the plunger is ? If not it could be drawing enough current to burn out the wire. We often left the coil hooked up to the conduit and just changed out the mechanical part. Mainly did that to keep from having to go to another floor and find the power source for the coil. Found that we needed to stick a large screwdriver or other item in the core of the coil or a fuse would blow or the coil would burn out.

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 10 09:26AM -0700 >I just posted something to that effect not having seen >your post. I know the guy is smart and I guess he just had a >blonde moment.   Not that smart yesterday. I was on hold with a customer trying to walk them through a messy problem. I'm easily distracted by paying work. I also have a problem with some meds. In the morning, I take a sustained release vasodilator, which initially causes a rather radical drop in blood pressure. When that happens, the brain goes offline or is reduced to operating at the speed of a snail for a while. I just took a pill for breakfast and am posting drivel while waiting for my ISP's support people to call me back, something that has been rumored to happen at geological intervals.   In addition, the OP reverse engineered the oven wiring and produced a schematic of sorts. Generally quite good but a few mistakes. One was showing an SCR keying the solenoids instead of a Triac. If it were an SCR, it would rectify the AC going to the solenoids. That would produce some DC on the solenoids which would raise the dissipation. However, I didn't catch that at the time and was still concentrating on the DC part of the puzzle. Somewhere along the line, I simply forgot about the inductance.     -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com>: Sep 10 07:10PM +0800 Isn't it silly in the very beginning? :)   -- @~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!! / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! /( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you! ^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3 不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa

Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>: Sep 10 10:57AM -0400 Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote:   > Isn't it silly in the very beginning? :)   They don't do it that way.   There are chips which implement the entire charging cycle.   http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries   http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/   Personally, I'm going to wait a few months, until the postmortem results come out. I've seen no information to date, which makes any indication of a root cause.   Paul

"Mr. Man-wai Chang" <toylet.toylet@gmail.com>: Sep 10 11:16PM +0800 On 10/09/16 22:57, Paul wrote:   > Personally, I'm going to wait a few months, until > the postmortem results come out. I've seen no information > to date, which makes any indication of a root cause.   I knew it's impossible to use a chip to prevent abuse. But shouldn't we make that point clear to consumers?   Should we add "proper handling of rechargeable battery" to primary schools if not nursery schools textbooks? :)   -- @~@ Remain silent! Drink, Blink, Stretch! Live long and prosper!! / v \ Simplicity is Beauty! /( _ )\ May the Force and farces be with you! ^ ^ (x86_64 Ubuntu 9.10) Linux 2.6.39.3 不借貸! 不詐騙! 不援交! 不打交! 不打劫! 不自殺! 請考慮綜援 (CSSA): http://www.swd.gov.hk/tc/index/site_pubsvc/page_socsecu/sub_addressesa

jurb6006@gmail.com: Sep 10 05:22AM -0700 Actually, batteries don't just blow up when charging, some blow up when discharging. Whichever way the current is going apparently it overheats something and POOF. There have been people injured while talking on a cellphone because of this.   This technology has come a long way. In the old days they would make you shut the phone completely off when you got on, or even went into a hospital. They said it might interfere with their equipment. Well they seem to have that part worked out but in hospitals they still tell you to turn it off because the building is a battery killer, causing rapid discharge.   This is because your phone is polling for a tower and the building is an effective RF insulator at those frequencies. It will keep searching and searching and increasing its transmit power until the batter dies. And that is discharging it and if you got an elcheapo eBay $4 battery in it it might just blow up.   Now phones have an airplane mode. Not so sure how that works because cell towers point the signal down, the plane must have a repeater or whatever and act as a tower. But they've had airphones for a long time, you just had to leave your credit card in the slot the whole time you talked. I am afraid to even look up what the rates were.

ohger1s@gmail.com: Sep 10 07:25AM -0700 > This technology has come a long way. In the old days they would make you shut the phone completely off when you got on, or even went into a hospital. They said it might interfere with their equipment. Well they seem to have that part worked out but in hospitals they still tell you to turn it off because the building is a battery killer, causing rapid discharge.   > This is because your phone is polling for a tower and the building is an effective RF insulator at those frequencies. It will keep searching and searching and increasing its transmit power until the batter dies. And that is discharging it and if you got an elcheapo eBay $4 battery in it it might just blow up.   > Now phones have an airplane mode. Not so sure how that works because cell towers point the signal down, the plane must have a repeater or whatever and act as a tower. But they've had airphones for a long time, you just had to leave your credit card in the slot the whole time you talked. I am afraid to even look up what the rates were.   According to my brother, "airplane" mode turns off the cell transmitter in the phone and allows it to just be used as a multi-media player or any game or app.   YMMV

Ralph Mowery <rmowery28146@earthlink.net>: Sep 10 10:31AM -0400 In article <bd28542a-cff0-4ae0-a4c3-d6b06a99eb7e@googlegroups.com>, jurb6006@gmail.com says...   > . It will keep searching and searching and increasing its transmit power until the batter dies. And that is discharging it and if you got an elcheapo eBay $4 battery in it it might just blow up.   > Now phones have an airplane mode. Not so sure how that works because cell towers point the signal down, the plane must have a repeater or whatever and act as a tower. But they've had airphones for a long time, you just had to leave your credit card in the slot the whole time you talked. I am afraid to even look up what the rates were.     The airplane mode is for the smart phones and tablets. It mainly shuts off the telephone, blue tooth and wifi. That is done because usually there are no devices to connect to. This saves the battery as you mentioned.   Basically just a quick way to disable the radio frequency functions to save the battery.

JW <none@dev.null>: Sep 09 03:30PM -0400 Bought this piece of junk at a garage sale. https://www.amazon.co.uk/MIP108-I-Station-Speakers-Docking-Station-White/dp/B000G0G6K2   Sounds OK enough for what it is. Not using it with an iphone, I just wanted something better sounding than my laptops built in speakers on the front porch for the summer.   The problem: If the thing doesn't detect any sound for about 10 seconds, it goes into power management mode and cuts out the amp. If you're listening to music that has quiet sections you'll get chunks of audio cut out of the music while the amp turns back on!   Good grief, the idiot engineer who designed this! I hope he got his pink slip.   Maybe this winter I'll open it up and see if there's a way to disable this "feature".

Tom Gardner <spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk>: Sep 09 09:40PM +0100 On 09/09/16 20:30, JW wrote: > out of the music while the amp turns back on!   > Good grief, the idiot engineer who designed this! I hope he got his pink > slip.   You haven't listened to music radio stations recently. Most "popular" music is designed and engineered to have a constant loudness.

Syd Rumpo <usenet@nononono.co.uk>: Sep 10 12:29AM +0100 On 09/09/2016 20:30, JW wrote: > slip.   > Maybe this winter I'll open it up and see if there's a way to disable this > "feature".   This was an issue many years ago - 1973[1] or thereabouts - at BBC radio before 24 hour broadcasting. The transmitters were fitted with a circuit which would switch them off if there was more than a minute[1] of silence.   BBC Radio 3 was and is a classical music station[2]. A minute[1] of 'aesthetic pause' wasn't uncommon.   [1] Whatever. Something like that. Too long ago. [2] Probably the best in the world.   Cheers -- Syd

dplatt@coop.radagast.org (Dave Platt): Sep 09 05:46PM -0700 In article <fs26tb9arnl6jp2cam08qra6urtj1mjsoc@4ax.com>, >out of the music while the amp turns back on!   >Good grief, the idiot engineer who designed this! I hope he got his pink >slip.   I sorta expect that this isn't a problem for the product's intended demographic: the very large number of young folks who listen to modern pop music, which simply doesn't *have* any 10-second quiet periods in it. It's all been loudencompressified to death, has a total dynamic range of maybe 3 dB on a really good day, and is either THERE or ( )   Thanks for the warning, though - I won't buy such a monstrosity myself. I have this atavistic preference for dynamic contrasts and subtlety in the music I play...

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Sep 10 01:50AM -0400 On 9/9/2016 3:30 PM, JW wrote: > slip.   > Maybe this winter I'll open it up and see if there's a way to disable this > "feature".   I'd like to find a decent remote bluetooth speaker that doesn't use a battery and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. I had some old Sony speakers that I got off Freecycle and got an $18 bluetooth module for music in a car. I lucked out and the internal PSU put out about 30 volts which was in the range for the module. I embedded it and it worked great. I had the speaker close by so I could tweak the volume knob (my preference over on PC controls) but didn't need another wire plugged into my laptop which moves around.   I worked pretty well for about a year until it stopped pairing with my PC. I'm not certain if it is a hardware problem or a software problem on the PC. I need to see if my phone can see it.   --   Rick C

adrian@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid (Adrian Tuddenham): Sep 10 10:06AM +0100 > 'aesthetic pause' wasn't uncommon.   > [1] Whatever. Something like that. Too long ago. > [2] Probably the best in the world.   The producer was suppoosed to 'book out' any extended silences so that the transmitter engineers were warned in advance, the automatic circuit could the be over-ridden.   The transmitters didn't switch off immediately, they switched to an incoming feed via an alternative route or an off-air receiver tuned to another station in the chain.     -- ~ Adrian Tuddenham ~ (Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply) www.poppyrecords.co.uk

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