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| "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 21 08:56AM -0800 On Wednesday, December 21, 2016 at 11:38:26 AM UTC-5, Wade Garrett wrote: > Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire > dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) There is mounting - and there is "mounting". Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. H.L. Mencken |
| Meanie <meanie@gmail.com>: Dec 21 12:08PM -0500 On 12/21/2016 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: > Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? > Is it that the patch will flex too much? > Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Those holes are nowhere near the sidewall to be off concern. I've patched/plugged holes much closer than that. In fact, I plugged a hole a few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't be a reason it will fail. |
| Wade Garrett <wade@cooler.net>: Dec 21 11:38AM -0500 On 12/21/16 11:10 AM, Frank Baron wrote: > Is it that the patch won't hold? Why? > Is it that the patch will flex too much? > Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) -- Make America great again? Hell, I'd be happy if you just made it America again. - @KelsowFarlander |
| "pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 21 10:33AM -0800 Imagine this scenario: Frank/Horatio/Norman/John, our idiot in search of his very own village, using his BMW with his front-end work, now driving on four bald tires that he has repaired and installed with his Harbor Freight tools out on the road right beside the rest of us. Don't engage with this jackass. With apologies to the hooved variety for the base libel. Peter Wieck Melrose Park, PA On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. H.L. Mencken |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 06:34PM On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 10:14:36 -0600, dpb advised: >> Or is it that the belts are damaged and they will break? > All of the above in greater/lesser degree depending on just where and > how bad the damage is... Thank you for the information as some were on the last tread groove (see below how we patched it with a home-made plug patch. > None of those are even close to the sidewall; they're all well out in > tread area. Thank you for that advice because I wasn't sure at all how close you can get to the sidewall for it to fail the patch test. We patched this alloy-wheel 55-series tire where a flat-on-both-sides tiny bolt (with no sharp edges whatsoever) had wedged itself into the last groove, and eventually punctured the tire. http://i.cubeupload.com/09PwHs.jpg Here you see the tiny (now headless) bolt next to the puncture hole: http://i.cubeupload.com/6F0CnI.jpg To properly patch that hole, we reamed the hole with this hand tool: http://i.cubeupload.com/sZ6qxo.jpg Using that hand tool, we probed the hole slant (it went in straight): http://i.cubeupload.com/UxYLNx.jpg Then we grabbed this second hand tool & slobbered glue on the plug: http://i.cubeupload.com/EMU9zy.jpg This is the plug sticking up on the outside of the 55-series tire: http://i.cubeupload.com/V1dCGA.jpg To cut off the protruding plug, we failed trying the diagonal cutter: http://i.cubeupload.com/ra3Prp.jpg We also failed with the flush dikes because the plug was too rubbery: http://i.cubeupload.com/M2BHaA.jpg We ended up slicing it off with a utility knife but we learned how to slice the plug off more neatly when we cut off the plug protruding on the inside: http://i.cubeupload.com/r0n5WI.jpg The dremel tool metal blade cut off the plug flush with the inside wall: http://i.cubeupload.com/QSBXAK.jpg Then we buffed with a wire wheel, where we learned that it would be much nicer to have a "ball" shaped wire wheel because of the angles involved in buffing away the outside rubber to expose the virgin rubber to the vulcanizing glue: http://i.cubeupload.com/QNrRco.jpg Here is the buffed result before applying the patch over the plug: http://i.cubeupload.com/otho8w.jpg After applying vulcanizing glue, we stitched down the patch: http://i.cubeupload.com/BrkYl3.jpg Where this is what the final patch looked like: http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg Any advice you can provide will be helpful as the whole point was to learn by doing, where already I'd do it differently the next time (e.g., I'd use the dremel tool on both the inside and outside and I would get a roundish wire brush that fit the inside of a tire better. |
| Frank <"frank "@frank.net>: Dec 21 01:37PM -0500 On 12/21/2016 12:08 PM, Meanie wrote: > few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. > If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't > be a reason it will fail. Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. |
| Meanie <meanie@gmail.com>: Dec 21 01:58PM -0500 On 12/21/2016 1:37 PM, Frank wrote: > Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the > tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side > wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. I'm very aware of the tire design. That doesn't erase the fact of proper patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those locations. |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 07:15PM On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 11:38:23 -0500, Wade Garrett advised: > Gotta' ask....what is your ongoing fascination with tire > dismounting/mounting/repairing ;-) That's a good question which I don't know how to answer. Thinking about it, I guess it's just that I hate to not be able to do something that I *should* be able to do at home. We should all be able to: a. Mount and dismount a tire at home b. Patch a tire at home c. Balance a wheel at home I patched all five tires, and learned a bunch about what tools would be better (e.g., a roundish wire brush would be a dream come true to have). Here I found that breaking the bottom bead on an alloy wheel 55-series tire was tremendously easier than it was on the 75-series SUV steel-wheel tires (but you notice how I positioned the purpose-built HF bead-breaking tool with a board on one end and the HF tire changer on the other end): http://i.cubeupload.com/ngg3X3.jpg Then I learned to mark the position of the valve since we'd normally be re-using these tires and we would want the balance to be the same as it was before (at least as a starting point): http://i.cubeupload.com/5Kl0Dy.jpg Breaking the top bead was so easy that it doesn't need explanation: http://i.cubeupload.com/PouqLx.jpg Likewise, levering off the top bead from the alloy wheel was easy peasy: http://i.cubeupload.com/CIiEKR.jpg Levering off the bottom bead from the alloy wheel was also very easy: http://i.cubeupload.com/477H02.jpg Then, it was time to plug and patch the hole, which, in this case, was made by a bolt that was NOT sharp! http://i.cubeupload.com/jxxp46.jpg The bolt may have wedged into the groove and slowly punctured the tire: Any advice you can provide (that is intended to be helpful) is welcome because I always want to learn (but advice saying have it done at a shop is not going to be helpful). |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 07:31PM On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 12:08:54 -0500, Meanie advised: > few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. > If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't > be a reason it will fail. Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. How close can you get to the edge, and, why. I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. Is that correct? BTW, what *size* & *shape* patches do you put over the protruding plug? http://i.cubeupload.com/MGkwIO.jpg I tried a small round patch (which was a bit bumpy): http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg And a bigger patch which was flatter: http://i.cubeupload.com/0zUbny.jpg Also what do you use at home to cut the plug off flush? http://i.cubeupload.com/ll4kKR.jpg It would have been nice to get the plug cut more flush than this: http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 07:42PM On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:58:01 -0500, Meanie advised: > patching/plugging them. As I stated, your holes aren't even neat the > sidewall. Thus, I'm wondering why you'd even be concerned in those > locations. I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread. As I replied to Frank, I hadn't realized there were circumferential steel belts on top of radial nylon plies, so, it seems (but I'm not sure) that the delineation line is the edge of the steel belts. http://www.tirefailures.com/images/tire-tread-diagram.jpg The problem is, of course, figuring out *where* those steel belt edges lie: http://www.tirefailures.com/images_vf/img/TireCutaway.jpg From the diagrams, they seem to lie just below the last tread marks: https://www.lesschwab.com/images/backcountry_radialtire_layers.jpg From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem? |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 07:42PM On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 13:37:16 -0500, Frank advised: > Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the > tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side > wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. Thanks Frank for explaining as I didn't realize until I just looked it up that there are circumferential steel "belts" and then there are these "radial" body plies. http://www.idmsvcs.com/2vmod/suspension/wheels/tires/beadairleak/tirecutaway.gif If I look at these cutaway diagrams, it seems we can patch to the edge of the steel belts, but not after that edge (where there is only the "body plies". Is that right? https://www.treaddepot.com/assets/images/content/content-atv-construction-1.png |
| Frank <"frank "@frank.net>: Dec 21 03:17PM -0500 On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote: > https://www.lesschwab.com/images/backcountry_radialtire_layers.jpg > From what you said, the sides that don't have belts flex so much that the > patch would fall off. Is that a correct assessment of the edge problem? That was my point. |
| Meanie <meanie@gmail.com>: Dec 21 03:40PM -0500 On 12/21/2016 2:42 PM, Frank Baron wrote: >> locations. > I think you replied to "Frank" who is different than I am, so you're both > in agreement that you can get to the edge of the tire tread. You're correct, my apologies. |
| Meanie <meanie@gmail.com>: Dec 21 04:22PM -0500 On 12/21/2016 2:31 PM, Frank Baron wrote: >> be a reason it will fail. > Thanks Meanie, as that was the kind of information I was seeking. > How close can you get to the edge, and, why. Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thus, a repair facility will not usually patch or plug a tire beyond that area. My experience is just that...mine and I have plugged/patch a few tires in my days. I've plugged a few tires in my days to help friends and because service shops will not or just to save a few buck. Overall, it depends on the tire brand as I don't know how much they differ in design or placement of their belts. I know the more expensive brands (Bridgestone, Michelin, Pirelli, etc.) have stronger sidewalls than the cheaper and would benefit a patched hole near the edge. Also, low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over higher sidewall tires. > I am assuming it flexes more at the edges. > I am assuming that flex will eventually work the patch free. Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. > http://i.cubeupload.com/35mRC3.jpg > Although, when I buffed it with the wire wheel, it was flush: > http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is important to ensure that proper prep is performed. In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, a patch/plug is better. http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/MzgyWDUwMA==/$T2eC16VHJGYE9nooiLK+BQUlyRvG4Q~~60_57.JPG?set_id=8800005007 if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes. http://cdn.mscdirect.com/global/images/ProductImages/5727864-24.jpg You don't want to cut the plug flush. It is best to leave some straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 21 04:51PM -0500 >few mm from the corner and it held up for the remaining tread life. >If the patch/plug job is well prepped and well applied, there shouldn't >be a reason it will fail. An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen. I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 21 04:52PM -0500 >Belts are on the part of the tire that touches the road. Keeps the >tread rigid so it does not flex much on the road and wear faster. Side >wall are made more flexible and are not as easy to patch. And steel belts are hell on plugs, and if fractured can really cause problems with tread squirm and tire integrety. |
| clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 21 05:18PM -0500 >Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread >portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere >along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. Th eproblem with belt edge repairs is in the way the belt is manufactured - the edge of the belt has similar too the "selve edge" on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture Generally speaking an inch and a quarter in from the edge or shoulder of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt area. A fractured belt can do a LOT of damage to a car when it lets go - even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished. snipped >to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. >There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, >a patch/plug is better. According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage. I'll plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as soon as possible. |
| thekmanrocks@gmail.com: Dec 21 03:11PM -0800 Frank Baron: I don't trust those straight plugs. Only the 'mushroom' plugs(flat on inside) for me. Had too many 'cigarette butt' plugs come out on me. |
| Meanie <meanie@gmail.com>: Dec 21 06:25PM -0500 > even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to > our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding > tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished. I agree about the damage a tire can do Throughout the years, I have often heard warnings such as dropping or painting a motorcycle helmet halts it's ability to protect, patching or plugging a motorcycle or car tire is dangerous, etc. and I've have yet to hear. read or experience any mishaps related from such an event. Not saying it hasn't happened, but I've yet to hear about such a case. I won't dispute the possibilities, but I also believe many warnings are in place for the manufacturer to protect themselves from liability and warranty. Thus, each person should proceed at their own risk. I have done many repair jobs on car and motorcycle tires to save money while growing up. I do so now cause I know how even though I can afford to have it done or replace a product but I cannot see replacing a good product because it has a minor flaw. Could I be at risk? Possibly, but it's a risk I've taken often and I'm willing to take again due to the 100% success rate thus far. |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 11:28PM > An improperly installed tire repair is a disaster waiting to happen. > I hope Frankie's liability insurance is adequate and paid > up.Particularly if the tires are not going on his own vehicle. That's good advice except it's not usable advice unless you actually think the plug-and-then-patch repairs I made are "a disaster waiting to happen". It's like saying "don't run with scissors", which is great advice, but essentially not useful advice. What I'm looking for is useful advice, particularly with respect to my technique. I agree with you that a single-piece patch-plug is superior to my two piece arrangement but other than that, what do you see "unsafe" about my plug-and-then-patch method? The whole point is to find out if this method is a safe patch. To help you advise me, I provided plenty of pictures of the plug and then patch which, I think, is a valid patch [except for the tread wear (which is a separate issue unrelated to the patch itself)]. Here is what is underneath the patch: http://i.cubeupload.com/ZoudZU.jpg Here is the final repair on the inside (using a big patch): http://i.cubeupload.com/UBOmyw.jpg Here is the final repair on the inside (using a small patch): http://i.cubeupload.com/heSWKF.jpg Other than the treadwear, did you see anything unsafe in my patch technique? a. Location of patch b. Patch materials c. Patch technique Or is it all safe? |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 11:28PM > on broadcloth fabric - the "weave" is different to provide a > non-ravelling edge to provide strength. A plug too close to the edge > of the belt damages this re-enforced edge, risking a belt rupture Thanks for that detail that the edge of the steel belt is different than the middle of the steel belt. That may be why I think I've heard tire repair guys saying they can't patch within so many inches of the edge, even if it's still in the "tread" area. > of the tread is as close as repairs are recommended. The last bit of > the belt is a worse problem than the actual shoulder, outside the belt > area. Thank you for that detail because that's essentially why I asked the question. So we're looking at an inch (to remember it easily) from the edge of the tread on both sides. > even if it does not cause loss of control. I've seen fenders (wings to > our British friends) torn off or totally destroyed by an exploding > tire belt, and the side of a travel trailer totally demolished. I have seen "alligators" on the road, mostly from truck tires, probably from re-surfaced tires, probably on the inside tire of a dual-tire setup, which must flap like a sonofabitch when they come off! > According to the tire industry association, neither just a plug ot > just a patch is acceptable, and a tire should be totally temoved from > the rim for repair to properly inspect for secondary damage. This industry (RMA?) recommendation makes sense, and I agree with your statement that both a plug and a patch should be made and the inside of the tire should be visibly inspected. For one, someone could have driven on the tire such that the belts are protruding from the inside. In this case, I didn't see such damage on the five test tires, but it could have been there. > I'll > plug a tire to get home, but a proper repair should be completed as > soon as possible. I agree with you that an external plug in an emergency is an expediency that most of us would do. I'd even patch a sidewall, if that's what it took to get off the road. (Dunno if that's even possible though.) |
| Frank Baron <frankbaron@example.com>: Dec 21 11:28PM On Wed, 21 Dec 2016 16:22:54 -0500, Meanie advised: > Keep in mind, the industry standard requires patches within right to > left tread area only and never to patch a hole larger than 1/4". Thanks for the detail, as all the holes I patched were screws or bolts, so, they're pretty small, and, as others said, all were within the "tread" area. > Also, > low profile tires have shorter sidewalls and offer greater strength over > higher sidewall tires. That's interesting as I can infer from that the lower-profile tires have a slightly greater area of patchability, all other things being equal. > Yes, they will flex at the edge and down the sidewall but the tread > portion remains in contact with the road. IMO, a plug or patch anywhere > along the tread area should hold if prepped properly. That's interesting that the patch can go to very edge of the tread. I had previously thought it could only go in the "middle" of the tread. > A patch roughly 1" to 1 1/4" in diameter is sufficient but I also > recommend a patch/plug combo if one can be used. Otherwise, it is > important to ensure that proper prep is performed. I knew about patchplugs, but I didn't have any so I made my own patchplug with a plug first, cut flush, and then a patch. Seems to me, in the end, the kind of patch and then plug that I did should work though, as they're essentially the same thing in the end, right? > In the areas you plugged, if you're just using a plug, there is no need > to remove the tire, You can simply plug the hole from the outside. Thanks. I actually knew that (but you didn't know I knew that). I was removing the tire anyway, so as to get experience with breaking the bead and reseating the bead. So I plugged it first from the outside, and then patched it from the inside. Seems to me that should be good enough for government work, but I don't know (which is why I ask). > There's no need to cut the plug on the inside. But in those open areas, > a patch/plug is better. I agree a single-piece patch-plug is better than either a patch or a plug alone. I suspect a two-piece patch-and-then-plug is still better than either a patch or a plug alone. Does that also make sense to you? > if you want to ensure a good seal. You protrude the plug from the inside > out. The patch makes contact with the inner tire and the plug sticks out > from the tread. That is where you cut using a pair of dykes. That does seem like a far more elegant solution than the path-and-then-plug that I came up with on my own. > straddling out. As it makes contact with the road, it will help seal the > area from the outside. Even if the hole is inside a tread, cut if flush > with the top of the tread. As the tire wears, so will the plug stem. Thank you for that advice. I figured it had to be flush, but your argument that it doesn't need to be flush as it may seal better not being flush and that it will wear with the tire makes sense. |
| makolber@yahoo.com: Dec 21 10:57AM -0800 > >> Dropped on hard floor and now just 1/2 second LED illumination. cracked ferrite core causing over current fault? those things usually both sides of the output outlet differential relative to chassis ground and they have a kind of ground fault sensor to shut the inverter off if there is any significant flow to the ground pin. m |
| N_Cook <diverse@tcp.co.uk>: Dec 21 08:16PM > those things usually both sides of the output outlet differential relative to chassis ground and they have a kind of ground fault sensor to shut > the inverter off if there is any significant flow to the ground pin. > m Cracked ferrite of the inverter transformer or AC output RFI filer torroid with live and neutral turns both around it? |
| makolber@yahoo.com: Dec 21 11:06AM -0800 > That doesn't answer my question of whether > or not AT transmitters use less power than > NT. Just a simple Yes or No would suffice. there is not a simple answer.. if the station stayed on the same frequency, then it can use lower power digital compared to analog. Digital fundamentally requires less power to close the link. HOWEVER. many stations also switched from a VHF frequency to a UHF frequency. The FCC allows more power to be used on UHF. So in each case the answer is ...it depends. I think it would be a gross exaggeration to say that digital TV is environmentally more friendly compared to analog because of power consumption. m |
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