Digest for sci.electronics.repair@googlegroups.com - 12 updates in 1 topic

clare@snyder.on.ca: Dec 08 07:32PM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 21:13:33 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon
 
>Right. And the 1 and 2 minutes are 1/60th and 1/30th of a degree
>respectively.
 
>But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
That depends whether it is at 12.5 inches, 12.5 feet, or 12.5
miles.......
You REALLY need to study your high-school math.
Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.net>: Dec 08 07:33PM -0500

On 12/8/2016 12:00 PM, John Harmon wrote:
 
> their camber at home to NOT respond (they're not going to be able to tell
> us anything we don't already know - all they're going to do is clutter up
> this thread to make it harder to be useful to others).
 
 
New to USENET?
I've done wheel alignment in my garage but given your arrogant attitude
I prefer not potentially clutter things here.
 
FYI, you won't be the first to call me an asshole today so don't be so
proud when you do so.
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 12:54AM

amdx actually said:
 
>> But what is 1/60th of a degree in inches?
> That depends on the length.
 
Following that statement to the logical next step, here is a
representiative track for my sedan from this thread:
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?1312326-1998-BMW-528i-Complete-FRONT-Suspension-Overhaul
 
That photo says that the track is:
- Front Track Width = 1512 mm
- Rear Track Width = 1526 mm
 
So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 08 07:36PM -0600

On 12/8/2016 6:54 PM, John Harmon wrote:
> - Front Track Width = 1512 mm
> - Rear Track Width = 1526 mm
 
> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
You have a misunderstanding, to figure millimeter or inches,
you need to have two lines that are connected like a below,
 
l****/
l /
l /
l /
l/
The angle between l and /, we will call 1/60 of a degree,
the **** is the millimeters or inches, BUT, the quantity of millimeters
or inches depends on the length of l, as you can see the longer l the
larger **** will be. But the angle stays the same.
 
 
Use the link below
may help you see it.
 
 
 
http://www.carbidedepot.com/formulas-trigright.asp
I put in a 1 degree angle for (angle a) and 16" for
(side B) Then hit calculate to find (side a).
This says you need 0.279" of tilt top to bottom
on a 16" wheel.
Note: this triangle is rotated 90* to your wheel.
So take that into account when thinking about the calculation.
Bottom line, for a 1 degree angle you need a tilt of 0.279" over 16".
That's measurable, but you need a post 90* off the floor to measure from.
Second note: Side (a) the tilt at the top (mm or inches), Side (b) is
perpendicular to the floor, Side (c) would be the tilt of the wheel.
Angle (a) is the degrees of the angle you set.
 
Mikek
jurb6006@gmail.com: Dec 08 08:27PM -0800

>"New to USENET?
I've done wheel alignment in my garage but given your arrogant attitude
I prefer not potentially clutter things here.
 
FYI, you won't be the first to call me an asshole today so don't be so
proud when you do so. "
 
I doubt the OP actually even knows what camber is. He is probably conflating it with caster which is the amount the lower parts of the tires are closer together. That angle along with the camber which could also be called steering inclination axis is what makes the steering wheel return to the center.
 
Unfortunately most of what I know (and I know my limitations) applies to rear wheel drive cars which usually had a toe in, but now with front wheel drive there is usually a toe out.
 
I don't know if I can say this for true on these newer cars, some of which have quite complicated suspension, but in the old days if you knew how to align a car you could do it with a piece of string. Things have changed and now withe front wheel drive and independent rear wheel suspension having it's own caster and camber, toe in or whatever, has complicated the situation a bit.
 
But still if you got the money for tires all you have to do is drive the car a while and see the wear on the tires.
 
Guy was telling me a long time ago that on some Mazeratis there were like four shocks per wheel. I stuck with electronics LOL. In fact last year we did a head job (due to a jumped timing chain) on a Chevy Ecotec engine. I want NOTHING to do with them anymore.
 
Anyway, camber matter most on turns. the rest of it not so much. Measuring it entails getting the geometry of the hub/tire/whatever at a straight on position and then comparing that to it at a turning position. Camber goes along with the geometry of the whole steering assembly to establish toe out on turns, because one wheel is turning a larger radius than the other. You don't generally set that except maybe on big semi trucks. It is simply figured out when they design it. T%The camber does affect it, but really you don't have to set that unless you change the lower A frame. Even changing the whole strut tower is not likely to affect it much, enough to worry about anyway.
 
And people want to worry about shit like this when the brake lines are rusting out and the software that runs the engine is about to crash. Gimme a 1967 Chevy, really. Now on those you DID set the camber. It is all in the shop manual. (not a Chilton's)
tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net>: Dec 09 02:55AM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:12:12 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:
 
> translate 2 angular minutes into inch
> measurements.
 
Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones.
An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
tlvp <mPiOsUcB.EtLlLvEp@att.net>: Dec 09 03:07AM -0500

On Thu, 8 Dec 2016 20:37:59 -0000 (UTC), John Harmon wrote:
 
> so a problem is how do I
> convert the 2 minutes of accuracy to a plus or minus inch figure?
 
You need a cataly$t, and a good front end man. Bring your vehicle to the
front end man, lubricate him with your cataly$t ($100 should do nicely),
and he'll perform the conversion for you, even adjusting things to the
result you would desire (key word or phrase: "wheel alignment").
 
HTH. Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
"pfjw@aol.com" <pfjw@aol.com>: Dec 09 05:47AM -0800

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:54:19 PM UTC-5, John Harmon wrote:
 
> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
You are now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot.
 
READ THE $%^&*()!@# TEXT in the procedure. Millimeters are not involved. They are mentioned for informational purposes so that *you* might understand why things do not line up front-to-rear. Degrees are involved. Hence the use of a level and plumb-bob. The HORIZONTAL DIMENSION is measured and marked. This is at the axle. Then The VERTICAL AXIS is determined. If it is at the correct angle from true vertical (hence the need for a level) when the vehicle is on the ground and correctly loaded you now have the correct camber. WHICH YOU CAN COMPARE TO THE PREVIOUSLY DETERMINED MARK. Which then GIVES YOU A DIMENSION FOR FUTURE REFERENCE.
 
Back in the day, and at very good shops today, the mechanic will ask the owner whether the car is normally driven solo or with passengers. If solo, he will put (usually) a 40-60 pound weight in the driver's seat to simulate "proper loading".
 
That you are a BMW owner explains a lot as well.
 
 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2390373/BMW-drivers-really-aggressive-drivers-prone-road-rage-wheel.html
 
That you cannot read for content is typical of the species.
 
The sharpest tool you should be allowed is a rubber spoon.
 
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 09 09:01AM -0600

> On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:54:19 PM UTC-5, John Harmon wrote:
 
>> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
> You are now proven stupid, as well as being a true idiot.
 
Hey Peter, why all the hate?
How is the rest of your life, do you treat everyone this way?
I think I have posted a pretty good explanation to try and give him the
understanding he is missing.
I did it without one vile word.
In fact, I enjoyed it. How joy did you have in your response?
None, you were mad. Huh! How silly. If you are not happy making
a response, why do it.
Mikek
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 03:14PM

tlvp actually said:
 
> Sheesh, you don't translate angular measurements into linear ones.
> An angle isn't a length. Cheers, -- tlvp
 
I agree that I'm confused (which is why I am hesitating to respond because
I don't wish to muddy the technical issue further for everyone).
 
The problem with doing camber at home is different from the problem of
doing toe at home.
 
For my bimmer, the camber is specified in degrees, and the measurement
tools we're exploring measure in degrees.
 
We just have to solve the conceptually simple problem of
a. Accuracy to 1 minute of angular measurement
b. Creating a wheel plate that meets that accuracy
c. Measuring to that accuracy with a mobile device
 
The problem, for my bimmer, is that the manufacturer specifies the toe in
degrees, yet we measure in inches. The conversion confuses me to no end
(which is obvious to all).
 
However, that specific translation problem may be solved if I trust this
layman's chart, for a similar vehicle:
http://www.bmwdiy.info/alignment/index.html
 
Which puts the toe-in in inch measurements of:
Front toe (left): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
Front toe (right): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/32"
Front toe (total): Minimum = 1/32", Maximum = 3/16"
 
As with all specs written by laypeople, I can't tell if that toe is to the
centerline of the bimmer or wheel to wheel but since they specify a
single-wheel toe, can I safely presume that the spec is to the *centerline*
of the vehicle?
John Harmon <HarmonJohn@example.com>: Dec 09 03:14PM

tlvp actually said:
 
> front end man, lubricate him with your cataly$t ($100 should do nicely),
> and he'll perform the conversion for you, even adjusting things to the
> result you would desire (key word or phrase: "wheel alignment").
 
Anyone can catalyze a reaction, but the catalyst remains unchanged.
 
That is, if I do that, I learn absolutely nothing.
 
I remain as uneducated as before.
amdx <nojunk@knology.net>: Dec 09 09:16AM -0600

On 12/8/2016 7:36 PM, amdx wrote:
>> - Front Track Width = 1512 mm
>> - Rear Track Width = 1526 mm
 
>> So now what's 1/60th of a degree, in millimeters?
 
Just Repeating so you don't miss my post.
I would like to know if my explanation made any sense to you.
Be sure to use the trig calculator to help you understand.
Maybe even draw out a few right triangles get the idea
 
 
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