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mike <ham789@netzero.net>: Sep 21 05:21PM -0700 On 9/21/2017 3:41 PM, T i m wrote:   >> This ain't rocket science folks.   > Maybe not but can appear as such to some (I think). ;-)   > Cheers, T i m   OK, Let's go back to engineering 101. What's the VERY MOST important part of a project? It's the SPECIFICATION.   Exactly, precisely, concisely, unambiguously, completely stated requirements. This does NOT change. If you change your mind and change the spec, you start a new project.   How do you know when you're done? You write acceptance criteria. Exactly how the user, in this case you, is going to test the unit to determine if you met the spec? If it passes the written acceptance criteria, you succeeded. If it passes the test criteria, but doesn't work, the specification was the problem. You get paid for this project and start a new one with new specifications.   I can't emphasize how important the specification is. It's the number one cause of project failure. You can't design for criteria that were not specified. It's easy to say, "I know what I'm designing for me...I don't need no stinkin' specification." You'd be wrong. This thread is what you get. Lots of rocket scientists when you really need a boat. The very last place you want to discover that your forgot some important requirement is when the completed device is deployed.   Words like exactly, "as good as possible" have no place in a specification.   Specs are numbers and test methods. Specs include allowable variations due to initial component tolerances, component age, temperature, vibration, misuse. An example of misuse is, "what happens when the user hooks it up backwards." I learned about vibration when I carried a voltmeter on my motorcycle. When I needed it, it failed. I took it apart and it poured out like sand.   The engineer doesn't need to know WHY you want what you want. That's not his job. HOWEVER...if you state your objectives, why you want to do this, you might find the bevy of rocket scientists have a much better way to accomplish your objectives. I can't count the number of times a user wanted an complicated gizmo, but his objective could be achieved with a much different and much simpler approach by repartitioning the system.   End rant.   First question I'd ask is, "are you gonna' stare at the meter 24/7?" If not, get a cheap digital panel meter off EBAY, put a push button in series and be done with it. If you're not battery powered, you can probably tolerate the load and don't need the push button.   But, back to your original request. Take your current meter. Put a series resistor to set the max voltage to 5V. Put a 10V "battery" in series. The remaining question is, "how do you implement the 10V battery?" Can your measured voltage ever get below 10V? If so, your problem just got a LOT more complicated. See "misuse" above.   If it were me, I'd use a 10V zener diode. If you can find an affordable temperature compensated one that is accurate over the range of current from zero to the max indication on your meter and the ambient temperature range, do that. Characterize the calibration. Fire up your CAD program and make a new meter face. Since you're making a new face, any stable zener voltage works. Your meter is as accurate as your care in making the new face.   Are we having fun yet?

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Sep 21 08:10PM -0700 On Friday, 22 September 2017 00:23:14 UTC+1, T i m wrote:   > Ok.   > >I don't know which suits you better.   > Whatever works best on the day. ;-)   Both work fine. Which is easier.   > >> was ramping from 0 to 15V (and that's fine for a 12V lead acid).   > >If you had a perfect-knee perfectly accurate voltage zener then sure, but where will you find one of those?   > Pass, hence the questions.   http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/B/Z/X/5/BZX55C10.shtml shows that the breakdown voltage is below nominal at 0-250uA, and resistance far higher than at 5mA specified. With Ir 0.1uA @ 7.5v you could use one, but you'd need to accept a yet unknown amount of nonlinearity in the scale. Far easier to just design something more accurate.     > Ok, but you still need to hold the -Ve end of the meter *at* 10V as > the source goes between 10 and 15V? A LM4040DIZ-10.0 works like a > zener so that would probably do.   The meter can just go on the opamp output, the offbiasing can be done on the input side.   > 15V. We would also have 20500 ohms (20k series resistor and 500 ohms > of the meter) in parallel with the chip feed to help ensure it stays > over 100uA.   or don't use it.   > functionality) is a very small series fuse and reverse biased diode > across the input to the meter circuit ?   > Cheers, T i m   Enough resistance on the opamp input buys a lot of protection, a reverse diode across it buys more. Power line diode gets you more. You could add diodes to avoid one power section discharging while the other stays up.   Re running the meter off the voltage it's measuring, you could avoid some issues by having a 2nd opamp section pump up its supply rail voltage. Ultimate rail accuracy isn't required, the one opamp could work as both oscillator & rail voltage comparator.   Or easier, just cut Vin in half and run the opamp off the 12v battery.     NT

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Sep 21 08:13PM -0700 On Friday, 22 September 2017 01:22:14 UTC+1, mike wrote:   > but his objective could be achieved with a much different > and much simpler approach by repartitioning the system.   > End rant.   He's making a one off for use at home, not commissioning a new design of military hardware.     > First question I'd ask is, "are you gonna' stare at the meter 24/7?" > If not, get a cheap digital panel meter off EBAY, put a push button > in series and be done with it.   not compliant with the spec     NT

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Sep 21 10:26PM -0500 On 9/21/2017 6:35 PM, T i m wrote: > But still, ohms law applies and with just a series resistor to limit > the current for FSD, zero on the meter (re-marked to display 10V) > won't reflect the required 10V.   Now, ya see, I missed that. you want a 10-15 volt meter, not a 0-15 volt meter.   The simplest is a 20K resistor in series with a 10v zener diode. Use a low current Zener so the knee works right at low values. Something like this: <http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/395/BZX55C2V0%20SERIES_D1610-1099630.pdf>   Depending on how non-linear the low end is, you can print a custom dial scale that has been corrected for "this voltage is this mark." <http://www.tonnesoftware.com/meter.html> Although this one looks to be linear down to 10 uA or better. 10 uA would be approximately 0.2 volts above the Zener voltage. or 10.2 volts on a 10-15 volt scale.           -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com

tabbypurr@gmail.com: Sep 21 08:59PM -0700 On Friday, 22 September 2017 04:26:17 UTC+1, Foxs Mercantile wrote: > Although this one looks to be linear down to 10 uA or better. > 10 uA would be approximately 0.2 volts above the Zener voltage. > or 10.2 volts on a 10-15 volt scale.   simple but time consuming producing a new dial paper     NT

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 21 09:05PM -0700 >simple but time consuming producing a new dial paper >NT   "The Windows programs for drawing analog meter scales" <http://www.tonnesoftware.com/meter.html> $35 for the full version.   -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Sep 21 11:22PM -0500 > simple but time consuming producing a new dial paper   With the low current Zener, it doesn't look like that will be necessary.   -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com

mike <ham789@netzero.net>: Sep 21 09:41PM -0700 >> End rant.   > He's making a one off for use at home, not commissioning a new design of military hardware.   The task is the same no matter who the customer. The more steps you skip, the more problems you have. The more you think like a project manager, the better managed your home projects. Once you acquire the habit, you'll find that it adds little to the time in the beginning and greatly simplifies the end. And it wastes far less time for rocket scientists in residence.

mike <ham789@netzero.net>: Sep 21 09:42PM -0700 On 9/21/2017 9:05 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:   > "The Windows programs for drawing analog meter scales" > <http://www.tonnesoftware.com/meter.html> > $35 for the full version.   I haven't seen the system requirements, but I'd wager that the precision measurement desired is never entered into any other system/program. The desired functionality could be obtained by a Sharpie mark or two on the face of the meter.   One of the difficult engineering skills to acquire is the ability to match the solution to the actual problem. Overkill is rampant. It's what you do when you don't understand what you need, but you start building it anyway.   If you need precision, you don't want an analog meter.

Foxs Mercantile <jdangus@att.net>: Sep 21 11:56PM -0500 On 9/21/2017 11:42 PM, mike wrote: > It's what you do when you don't understand what you need, but you > start building it anyway.   > If you need precision, you don't want an analog meter.   The meter program is capable of 100 "placed" I.e. non-linear tick marks over the scale. Much like some of the expensive lab grade equipment built with hand lettered scales.   I am reminded of a story in Model Railroader back in the early '50s. One of their staff members was in South Korea during the Korean war. He was bound and determined to build himself a small table railroad. He'd spent several weeks making sure every measurement was right and the corners were square.   Finally, the big day arrived. He placed it in the corner of the living room. Much to his horror, he had a triangular gap along one side.   He asked his Korean attache how could he have possible had that happen. The answer was simple, "Korean house not always square."   "But, your furniture and tables fit perfectly!"   "Korean tables and furniture not always square either."       -- Jeff-1.0 wa6fwi http://www.foxsmercantile.com

T i m <news@spaced.me.uk>: Sep 22 09:16AM +0100 On Thu, 21 Sep 2017 17:21:23 -0700, mike <ham789@netzero.net> wrote:   <snip read and well meaning stuff for brevity>   >Words like exactly, "as good as possible" have no place in a specification.   I guess that depends on your background, viewpoint and goals mike?   e.g. I knew what I wanted, had a rough idea how it could be done and just thought I run it past the panel for some real world *design* feedback (I'm very much a dabbling designer but long term builder / support guy etc).   >Specs are numbers and test methods. Specs include allowable >variations due to initial component tolerances, component age, >temperature, vibration, misuse.   Understood. I felt I laid out the relevant spec on my initial post, or at least as far as someone who understood humans were concerned. ;-)   "Not a 'repair' question as such but I was thinking of using an old skool 250uA FSD moving coil panel meter to read the 10 to 15V DC range (a lead acid battery charge / discharge indicator), next to a 0-30A Ammeter (inc shunt etc).   I was thinking of using either a voltage reference such as LM4040DIZ-10.0 or could I get away with a simple zener (BZX55C?) with associated resistor(s) please?"   So that was the need, the specs as far as I knew them and a potential solution to help people 'get' what I was considering. What I didn't do was signpost the fact that I was actually using a 0-5V panel meter to display the 10-15V range. ;-(   The 'human' bit: A small (key fact) analogue (key fact) panel meter connected to a lead acid battery (key fact) needs reading and those readings interpreting and so ITRW, we are 'most likely' to not require much in the way of precision or we wouldn't be using those things in the first place. ;-)   So, what I was hoping I was saying is 'Could someone confirm or recommend that 'for the (reading_between_the_lines) reasonably 'soft' requirements, what is likely to offer *a* (there may be many equally competent) real word / human solution?   So, anyone who knows their stuff and who understands people *might* have already answered the question on 'how much money', 'how much effort', 'how complex / simple' would any solution likely to be in their heads. <shrug>   >An example of misuse is, "what happens when the user hooks it >up backwards."   Understood, but unbeknown to anyone here, that will all be catered for *in my case* by the use of polarised connectors that could never end up reverse connected elsewhere.   >I learned about vibration when I carried a >voltmeter on my motorcycle. When I needed it, it failed. >I took it apart and it poured out like sand.   Again, understood. In this instance the only clue I gave to the potential size of the battery was the scale of the ammeter (0-30A) and that scale was because it is to be used on an electric outboard motor that has a maximum current of 30A and will in fact be running from 3 x 31Ah batteries joined in parallel. Because it's in a boat the panel meters will have a very comfortable ride. ;-)   >The engineer doesn't need to know WHY you want what you want.   Quite. ;-)   >That's not his job. HOWEVER...if you state your objectives, >why you want to do this, you might find the bevy of rocket scientists >have a much better way to accomplish your objectives.   Again, how would knowing what I wanted to use it for, more than I already specified help anyone actually resolve the question asked? I'm not saying they couldn't then rule out or add 'other things' but nothing offered so far has affected the physical outcome of this particular project in a physical sense.   That said, I could have been using a large and expensive panel meter, graduated in .2v increments, rather than one only marked in whole volt increments <g>. But the reading of the meter is my problem, making it read 10-15V is the bit I needed help on (please). ;-)   As an aside here ... I ran a Telephone Help Desk for over 5 years and feel I became fairly good at 'gauging' people. If their opening gambit was 'Your beige box isn't working' I knew to deal with them at a different level (initially at least) compared with someone who said 'Our X.25 PAD No3 doesn't seem to be bringing up a Link LED?'.   Just the same as the PC user reporting that their 'screen is blank' when it in fact has a flashing cursor in the top left corner. It's not what they expected or wanted but it's far from 'blank'. ;-)   >count the number of times a user wanted an complicated gizmo, >but his objective could be achieved with a much different >and much simpler approach by repartitioning the system.   Oh, absolutely and you / anyone (who hasn't already dealt with me on here) wouldn't have any idea what I do or do not know and may have already considered. My solution potentially required 2 components (resistor and zener) so it couldn't get much simpler so it's just a matter of selecting the 'best' (all things considered) types of those components, if they are appropriate.   >End rant.   Points noted and generally agreed mike. ;-)   >First question I'd ask is, "are you gonna' stare at the meter 24/7?"   No, it's something I'll glance at either now and again or specifically when I change something and need to see the consequences (like changing 'speed' on my electric outboard.   >If not, get a cheap digital panel meter off EBAY,   Already Done.   >put a push button >in series and be done with it.   No need mike. It will likely only be in circuit when required (testing) and the current drawn when it is will be insignificant relative to the other loads and battery capacity (93Ah).   > If you're not battery >powered, you can probably tolerate the load and don't need the >push button.   Check.   >But, back to your original request.   Cool. ;-)   >Take your current meter.   Check.   >Put a series resistor to set the max voltage to 5V.   Check (~20k?)   >Put a 10V "battery" in series.   Bench PSU + DMM, check.   >The remaining question is, "how do you implement the 10V >battery?"   Check.   >Can your measured voltage ever get below 10V?   Hopefully not. It will only ever be 10.5V or higher or 14.4V or lower ... or disconnected completely (points already considered etc).   >If so, your problem just got a LOT more complicated. >See "misuse" above.   Quite. ;-) >an affordable temperature compensated one that is accurate >over the range of current from zero to the max indication >on your meter and the ambient temperature range, do that.   Check. I did suggested a BZX55C in my OP but not being a designer I would have no real idea where to start re finding the 'right' component (by that I mean there is probably a 'go-to' device that 'most people' would typically use under these circumstances, like they might a 7805 or 555) ;-)   >Characterize the calibration.   Ok?   >Fire up your CAD program and make a new meter face.   Unlikely (see all the above). ;-)   >Since you're making a new face, any stable zener voltage works.   Chances are I'm not so ...   >Your meter is as accurate as your care in making the new face.   Quite ... and with simple 1V increments over a 10-15V range should give me a better 'feel' of the voltage than trying to read a similarly sized meter graduated in .2v increments in the 0-15V range all whilst going along a river in a small folding boat. ;-)   >Are we having fun yet?   Very much so, thanks mike. ;-)   Cheers, T i m

T i m <news@spaced.me.uk>: Sep 22 09:29AM +0100 >>> End rant.   >> He's making a one off for use at home, not commissioning a new design of military hardware.   >The task is the same no matter who the customer.   It can and maybe should be, in an ideal world. I say that because I hate having to deal with 'fools who rush in' or those expecting me to make technical / choice decisions on their behalf (like getting them some 'size 10, brown, lace up leather shoes'). ;-(   >The more steps you skip, the more problems you have.   'May have'.   >The more you think like a project manager, the better >managed your home projects.   Agreed. I like to understand as much about something as I can. However, my ability to do so, time available to do so and the pertinence of doing so don't always allow me to do so or to do so to the level I would like. Sometimes you just have to get stuck in. ;-) >Once you acquire the habit, you'll find that it adds >little to the time in the beginning and greatly simplifies >the end.   Agreed 100%.   >And it wastes far less time for rocket scientists in residence.   Quite ... however, this is a 'discussion' group and so does have an element of that, along with the hard science / fact stuff.   Part of the 'human' bit is not making a post (especially the initial one) too long (I fail most of the time) as it will put people off reading it and if there were any further points that need refining they could be done with a simple Q&A.   e.g. I initially outlined the fairly close detail at a level relevant to my needs and understanding (IMHO anyway). I didn't expand on what I was going to actually use it for because it didn't really matter to the question. I left it open to the reader to ask any supplementary questions as they felt relevant. ;-)   Cheers, T i m

"Dave M" <dgminala@mediacombb.net>: Sep 22 10:41AM -0500 T i m wrote: > the question. I left it open to the reader to ask any supplementary > questions as they felt relevant. ;-)   > Cheers, T i m   Wow, what a long thread about such a simple problem. Here's a web page describing exactly the circuit you need for an expanded scale voltmeter (http://sound.whsites.net/articles/meters.htm). Scroll down to Apragraph 5.0 to get to the expanded voltmeter discussion. It uses a 1ma movement for the discussion, so you'll have to calculate the resistor values to fit your meter. It uses a 10V zener and one more resistor.   Another method that I've used in the past to make an expanded scale meter is to suppress the mechanical zero. You still have (in your case) a 0-15V meter, but the needle doesn't get up to the "0" mark until 10V is felt across the circuit. After that, the meter responds normally, up to 15V full scale. So,with this approach, you don't need any extra circuitry to make an expanded scale meter. This means that you'll have to open the meter and (CAREFULLY!!) move the mechanical zero tang. First, apply 10V to the circuit. Then, turn the mechanical zero tang so that the pointer goes down to the "0" mark. Reassemble the meter movement, and you're all done.   To make this approach work, your meter movement must have enough mechanical adjustment range to suppress the pointer enough so that it needs 10V across the circuit to make the meter read "0" V. Typically, D'Arsonval movements have about 20-30% range on the mechancial zero adjustment, so yours might be a long stretch for this method. Never know till you try!! Dave M

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Sep 21 04:55PM -0700 GS wrote:   --------------------   > > Test ESR or correlate it with open cct cell voltage?   > ESR.   ** Err - with an ESR meter, like this one:   http://bobparker.net.au/esr_meter/esrmeter.htm       ..... Phil

mike <ham789@netzero.net>: Sep 21 09:49PM -0700 On 9/21/2017 4:55 PM, Phil Allison wrote:   > http://bobparker.net.au/esr_meter/esrmeter.htm   > ..... Phil   Have you ever tried to measure the ESR of a battery with one of these?   I bought an EBAY RLC/ESR tester. Found it useless measuring batteries. NO, putting a cap in series didn't help. Tried testing two batteries in series(reversed so the terminal voltage was zero). Not sure why, but I couldn't find any way to test battery ESR with it. Had to go back to pulse generator and scope.

Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com>: Sep 21 10:05PM -0700 mike wrote:   ---------------   > > http://bobparker.net.au/esr_meter/esrmeter.htm   > Have you ever tried to measure the ESR of a battery with one of > these?   ** Been doing just that for 20 years, I know Bob Parker and he endorses the method.   I wrote a short article on the idea and won nice prize from the publishers.   Long as the ESR meter uses high frequency AC ( 20kHz to 100kHz) to measure impedance it will do cells as well.       .... Phil

ggherold@gmail.com: Sep 22 06:06AM -0700 On Thursday, September 21, 2017 at 7:46:39 AM UTC-4, John-Del wrote:   > > Greg   > IIRC, you take the open circuit voltage and write it down. You take a voltage reading under a known fixed load and write that down. You plug those two voltage readings along with the load resistance value into a formula (that I can't recall) and you get the internal resistance of the battery.   > Waaaay too much trouble IMO. In recent years, I've found OC voltage sufficient to determine battery condition of basic alkaline cells. For high drain applications such as flash lights, anything at 1.5 is fine. For lower drain things like pocket radios or remote controls, anything above 1.3 works for many months. Any cell that reads 1.55 or above is virtually new.   Wow, too much trouble? It's just ohm's law. Say V_O is open circuit voltage, V_L is with load R. I = V_L/R Bat_R = (V_O-V_L)/I (The ESR may change with load current... I don't know.)   George H.

John-Del <ohger1s@gmail.com>: Sep 22 06:51AM -0700 > (The ESR may change with load current... > I don't know.)   > George H.   Yes, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much trouble. With alkalines, a volt meter tells me *immediately* what I need to know if I don't have my battery checker with me. If it's 1.6, it's new. 1.5 good as new. Anything above 1.3 is good for at least half the life of a new battery. Anything lower I don't bother with.   In the old days, some batteries would read decent OC voltage and still sag under their intended load. I haven't seen a battery in many years that would show good OC voltage and sag under load.

bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net>: Sep 22 07:55AM -0400 On 09/20/2017 08:56 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: > you try to recover by installing an earlier version, Apple's installer > refuses to allow a firmware downgrade.   > Have fun keyboard shopping.   Thanks for the detailed reply! You can really brick Apple keyboads during a firmware update whaaaaat?!

bitrex <bitrex@de.lete.earthlink.net>: Sep 22 07:56AM -0400 On 09/21/2017 07:19 AM, whit3rd wrote: > or mice to pair with? Connection isn't just automatic, you have to AUTHORIZE the > bluetooth item from the host computer.   > Either System Preferences/Bluetooth or the Bluetooth pulldown menu is a place to start.   Thanks for the reply, it's just frustrating that I have to use a _wired_ keyboard and mouse to get a wireless set to work. I don't have any wired keyboards or mice lying around! What is this, 2002?

jack4747@gmail.com: Sep 22 05:05AM -0700 Il giorno giovedì 21 settembre 2017 13:19:20 UTC+2, whit3rd ha scritto: > or mice to pair with? Connection isn't just automatic, you have to AUTHORIZE the > bluetooth item from the host computer.   > Either System Preferences/Bluetooth or the Bluetooth pulldown menu is a place to start.   If I remember correctly when a Mac starts, if there is no input device conneted (keyboard or mice), it turns on automatically the BT and starts the BT assistant to connect a BT keyboard or mice.   Bye Jack

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 16 08:47PM -0700 >How do you tell when the bar lube is blocked?   Remove the bar and chain. Chain oil comes out of a hole that mates with a corresponding hole in the bar that only goes half way through the bar (i.e. the hole is only on one side of the bar). Run the saw without the bar, chain, or cover, for about 60 seconds. You should see oil slowly dripping or exiting as a small mist out of the hole in the body. If nothing comes out, it's clogged further upstream or the pump is trashed. Lots of YouTube videos on testing and fixing chainsaw oilers: <https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chainsaw+oiler>   More common is that the oil hole in the bar is clogged with a mixture of oil, dirt, and sawdust. This would probably be a good time to clean out the bar groove, dress the bar, remove the sharp edges, flatten any dings, lube the sprocket, etc. <https://www.google.com/search?q=chainsaw+bar+maintenance> No need for the specialized tools. Just a scraper that fits in the groove, hand file, and trisquare. If the lack of oil has caused the bottom of the side plates on the chain to wear and the edges of the bar to mushroom into sharp edges, you may need to have the bar squared and the groove deepened.   Also, it helps to flip over the bar to extend the wear life. Most people don't like the way the saw looks with the manufacturers name inverted on the bar, but that's a small price to pay for extending the life of the bar.       -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>: Sep 17 10:05AM -0700 On Sun, 17 Sep 2017 09:53:14 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:     >Meanwhile, there's Sci-Hub: ><https://scihub.org>   Ooops. Wrong URL for Sci-Hub. This should be the right one. <https://sci-hub.io> -- Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Sep 22 04:26AM -0400 Jeff Liebermann wrote on 9/21/2017 10:53 PM: > library in my pocket. As more of what I have on my bookshelf becomes > available in electronic format, more of my paper books will become > donated or recycled.   Too much here to respond to, but also consider that ePaper displays don't flicker. Even if you don't notice the flicker, moving your eyes creates distortion while the ePaper display is fixed.   --   Rick C   Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998

rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com>: Sep 16 08:58PM -0400 ~misfit~ wrote on 9/16/2017 8:49 PM: > seats' in the search parameters. I'll go back to my policy of not clicking > obfuscated URLs - which for some odd reason I didn't think would be needed > here.)   Not sure what you are reading. Traffic laws are state issues in the US although there is a certain amount of "coordination" by the Federal government. I don't know of any states which doesn't require seat belts to be worn by everyone in a vehicle. I'm not familiar with *all* of the 50 states. What did you find that says otherwise?   --   Rick C   Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms, on the centerline of totality since 1998

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